Mundane vs Magick

[jhunter]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

I think this is the best post of the thread and has the most straight up truth to it. It fits my perception of things currently. Every city on Zalanthas isn't supposed to be another version of Tuluk. Some people seem to be stuck on this misperception that it's supposed to be like Tuluk everywhere.

[fourTwenty]

Uh, way off base dude.
I hate Tuluk. I dont have anything near a good reason. I just do.

[Qzzrbl]

Oh... This thread again?

I don't feel like typing up my usual response.... Thankfully Desertman and Fathi have done it for me already.

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

[Qzzrbl]

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

It couldn't -possibly- have anything to do with the fact that we've all realized that black people are just regular old humans too, right?

I mean, if they could fart lightning bolts and shoot fire from their fingertips, and could steal your soul, and could utter a few words and nuke your ass,  and could do all of these other logic and science defying things that are very scary to everyone, maaaybe things would be a little different.

[Lakota]

I can't think of a time when the Soh have embraced magick in any sort of recent history. Embrace
is a strong and quite misleading word.

You're right, a negative perception could arise as a result of the use of words of this nature. How about "use," eh?

Would you like me to name the actual weapons/magickal items I've seen Soh Lanah Kah use in a pm directed towards you?

Granted, said people may not have embraced magick, but that sure didn't stop them from taking advantage of the positive effects that occur as a result of said magickal weapons/items.

Discretion is key. Would your pc do it, regardless of the ideals/beliefs of his/her tribe?

[/derail]

[Lizzie]

I think there are lots of times when magicks can be *tolerated*. And plenty of situations when they -should be- tolerated. That doesn't mean they have to be liked, or accepted, or embraced. Tolerating something while gritting your teeth and wishing you didn't have to tolerate it, is a far cry from declaring your undying love for the neighborhood krathi.

As for balance, there certainly is no balance, and I'm damned glad of it. As for acting appropriately to that lack of balance, I feel it's mostly a lot of newer players who do this, because they come from games where the documentation says one thing, but the acceptable and expected roleplay is entirely different. For instance, a half-elf might be loathed (that's pretty universal in muds, I've learned), according to the docs. But you see half-elves marrying humans, mating with Highmen, having kids with dwarves, and no one really cares that the docs say half-elves are the scum of the planet.

I agree with the complaint that this "inappropriate" attitude toward the intentional imbalance is frustrating, and unfortunate. I just don't feel that it's necessarily a reflection of most of the more seasoned roleplayers I've seen in the game so far. I've had characters be -slowly- exposed to magickers on such a regular basis, that they really couldn't help but learn to get along with them - and even form a cautious friendship with a couple. That doesn't mean she was a magicker-lover. But it does mean she had enough *positive* reinforcement from the ones she met, that she was able to be in their company without blowing chunks.

[Fool]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

I was reading through this thinking something similar. Backlash, or the potential for backlash is important. Means that the social origins of magick hate have a foundation that characters can understand and experience.

Actually backlash would be more about when using their powers. You could also add in negative factors into how magickers gain their powers since play time and practice don't really have a negative impact on other players. So to become powerful (or at least powerful quickly) they have to do "bad" things.

Some ideas:

Elementalist: Human sacrifice has a long tradition. The elements require a ritual death in order to grant their powers to a mortal, or grant greater powers. When using powers there is a chance that backlash affects affects surrounding mortals, like a Krathi using a power and the mortals in the room gettings burnt (dmg dependant on level of power). The caster could attempt to limit the backlash but this would cause the power to be weaker or take longer. Newb casters wouldn't have developed the control needed to limit backlash making older ones more prized.

Sorcs: Hmm. Ok how about everytime they draw power to cast they potentially age those nearby to power the spell. This age drain determines how powerful the sorc is over time. So basically the more they cast and drain people the more their powers grow. Again casters that have developed control could try to limit this with lowered power inc time, and they wouldn't be growing in power.

Or they could cause mutations. Not the cool kind either, no one wants to be Captain Penisface even if they can fly. Cause temporary/permanent stat drops.

Psi: I don't know they need one. The idea that someone can read my thoughts is motive enough to off them.

As for items. Hmm its a toss up between having the making of involving  horribleness, and horribleness upon using, or both. Horribleness on using could be things like a flaming sword that translates anything said by a skinny into "I kanked your mum, your dad, and when you sleep..." or simply that there is a chance that you refuse to give it up and cannot ever get rid of it, or it draws scrabs like flies on shit.

Standard Fool Disclaimer: I make suggestions without any claim to insight or understanding.

[fourTwenty]

Move to the south, meet a racist. They aint hard to spot. See how long it takes this racists irrational hate of all things <hated race> to start tolerating them.

[Qzzrbl]

Speaking of racism.... It's kinda funny how some players have no trouble hating elves and half-elves, yet it's a whole 'nother story when it comes to magickers. Innit?

[Clearsighted]

Speaking of racism.... It's kinda funny how some players have no trouble hating elves and half-elves, yet it's a whole 'nother story when it comes to magickers. Innit?

Because elves and half-elves inspire contempt, not fear.

[X-D]

Alright, First, I've only read the first page of this thread.

Second, Nyr's first post on it shows that not only is this talk not new, it is also based on false assumptions.

Third, WHERE ARE THESE DOCS? Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "every mundane fears and loathes mages and magick" Because even though I've read every bit of the public docs several times over in the last 16 years, I have been unable to find that line.

Fathi, Sorry, I only read half of your first post and I find it to be lacking. "embrasing" magick as a tool is actually Following the docs, not against them.

Fourtwenty also bases his arguement on this bit of mythical docs and you know what, he is also dead wrong. Most PCs, and by most, I mean around 99% of the ones I've seen do indeed play like they have that mythical line painted on the wall behind their monitor.

Now, let us look at the docs that do exist.

For this reason sun mages are often feared and distrusted, and perhaps rightly so, for who would take up to learn magicks which were entirely battle-oriented?

The spells of sun mages typically invoke Suk-krath, which is the name of fire, the name of the Sun, and the name of the elemental plane of fire.

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat. Although a mage may have certain goals in mind for his/her life, the fact remains that sun mages can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

If you do not understand the difference between Often and Always, please spend some time on Dictionary.com. Also notice the word employed.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys. Stone mages are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Not only will the general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

Void mage spells often invoke the name of Nilaz, the elemental plane of void. Their magicks involve extra-planar spacial manipulations, blocking the other elements, and even some control over the nature of death.

Employment is only found in some other job, as their abilities aren't generally desired by few but those seeking quick movement of masses of people.

Hhhhmm, according to the docs, even the dreaded nilazi is only distrusted by the general populance. And a rukkian can actually be desirable.

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Hhhmm, widespread unease. Alright, so far I cannot find feared and loathed...hell, the docs state that a water mage can be desirerable...Huh.

Even less than sun mages, however, wind mages are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his/her mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.

Wind mage spells often invoke the name of Whira, the elemental plane of air. Their magicks involve becoming unseen, traveling at high speeds or to places normally inaccessible, and crossing large distances in the blink of an eye.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

In Allanak, magickers are required to register their presence with the Templarate immediately, and to wear a marker of their status for the rest of their lives. (This marker is supposedly a black gem worn at the neck.) As such, registered magickers in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city.

Wow, even there it only says "generally", not Always.

Oh, and as far as the OP. There is already balance. Every class in the game is working EXACTLY the way they are intended.

[fourTwenty]

If you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use.

1.That's straight from the Magick helpfile. It is not a mythical Doc. http://www.armageddon.org/general/magick.html  16 years and you've not read that?

2. If your not going to read the whole thread then your post is bound to be redundant and you've missed some good points.

Edit to add 3. I can think of a few other classes that the players would disagree they work exactly as intended.

[X-D]

Ah, yes, but let us quote the entire thing for context shall we?

Note: this file is intended for uses who are already familiar with the basics of the magick system of Armageddon. If you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use.

The statement is, this page is not intended for you unless you already know something.

Even staff admits that this is just VERY general information and that one should read the rest of the docs to be properly informed..

Again, Feared and loathed throughout the known world is not the same as Feared and loathed by everybody every where. And leaves room for places in the known world where it might not be feared and loathed. Which I can tell you do exist.

Keep em coming though. Basing your entire roleplaying experiance on a single line of a bit of newbie docs reminds me of bible thumpers who only follow or quote what they want to be true, ignoring everything else in the bible you point out to them that contradicts the belief.

Hey Morg, any thoughts on changing that little blurb to come into line with the rest of the docs? It really should say "Generally feared and loathed".

[fourTwenty]

Dude, the feck are yah smokin'?

There's your mythical doc, it says "FEARED AND LOATHED THROUGHOUT THE KNOWN."

Deny it if you want but don't compare me to a bible thumper. That's what the Docs say, whether it took you 16 years to find it or not.

[fourTwenty]

Alright, First, I've only read the first page of this thread.

Read the whole thread, trust me it helps.

Third, WHERE ARE THESE DOCS? Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "every mundane fears and loathes mages and magick" Because even though I've read every bit of the public docs several times over in the last 16 years, I have been unable to find that line.

Showed you that already.

Fathi, Sorry, I only read half of your first post and I find it to be lacking.

Read the rest of it, I found she made good points.

Fourtwenty also bases his arguement on this bit of mythical docs and you know what, he is also dead wrong. Most PCs, and by most, I mean around 99% of the ones I've seen do indeed play like they have that mythical line painted on the wall behind their monitor.

No, as with the existence of that Doc, it is you who is dead wrong.

Now, let us look at the docs that do exist.

For this reason sun mages are often feared and distrusted, and perhaps rightly so, for who would take up to learn magicks which were entirely battle-oriented?

The spells of sun mages typically invoke Suk-krath, which is the name of fire, the name of the Sun, and the name of the elemental plane of fire.

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat. Although a mage may have certain goals in mind for his/her life, the fact remains that sun mages can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

If you do not understand the difference between Often and Always, please spend some time on Dictionary.com. Also notice the word employed.

It is rarely RP'd that was which seems to be the crux of this discussion, again read the whole post. Do you understand the difference between rarely and often?

Not only will the general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

Hhhhmm, according to the docs, even the dreaded nilazi is only distrusted by the general populance. And a rukkian can actually be desirable.

WTF! The very next line says all other elementalist seek to drive them from exstance.

<skipped a lot here cause its beating a dead horse and already been discussed and I'm getting tired of this shit>

Oh, and as far as the OP. There is already balance. Every class in the game is working EXACTLY the way they are intended.
HA!

[X-D]

Lets go to your method then.

Your quoted docs are wrong, Mine are right...Thump thump.

(not bothering to quote post, I'll just answer in order)
As Nyr posted, this thread is not new, Read the entire thing, shit, I have many times over in all the other ones I actually bothered to waste my time reading, talk about beating a dead horse.

No, you have not showed me already, you continue to ignore key points only posting what you think will back up your argument. Here, let me bold something you ignored.
((Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "EVERY mundane fears and loathes mages and magick"))

If the premise is wrong then the points made, no matter how good are also wrong.

Really, you actually have proof that I am wrong on finding that most PCs are played correctly in regaurds to magick? Hold on, let me check the wizlist here...Oh wait, your not on it, Gee. Know what this means? Wiat, I know I need to make this big or it will be ignored. YOU ARE NOT ON STAFF AND CANNOT KNOW.

I have found it to be RP'd almost all the time. How many mages have you played in say the last 5 RL years? Of them, how many lasted for over 20 days played? Of the ones that did, how many mundane PCs did your mages interact with? For me that is, For me the answers are, 7, all of them, Hundreds. In that time I think I met maybe 5 PCs who were played poorly in how they reacted to magick in a social setting, and another 20 or so in a wilderness setting, in All of those cases, they RP'd out the loathing part and forgot the fear, They all died. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of PCs my mages come in contact with are well played in my opinion regarding magick.

Of course they do, but we are not talking about what an elementalist should be played like. Get back on track buddy. hell, its your thread, read the title again then if you want to talk about magick verses magick..Oh, there is the title for your next thread. Moving on.


Ah, a scoff, the true admittance of somebody who has no clue.

Oh, and come up with at least enough matching lines of text from different parts of the docs to back your "all must fear and loath" Theary would you? Otherwise I'm gonna have to thump my quotes as true because there are more of them.

[fourTwenty]

Your living in your own world amigo. Nobody said EVERYbody was suppose to hate Magick. Read the rest of the thread. Go read your on post, or my post, or somebodies post because you make no sense.

And sorry, I didn't realize you were staff and knew more about this than I did. Oh wait.

I'm talking about how things currently are IG, go play, it's easily viewable. It's proof positive.

If you have ideas I would love to hear them. However the viewpoint, Magick is fine and nothing needs to be fixed, is one that I and others do not agree with. You have clearly stated you think Magick is fine and needs no adjustment, that is your opinion and I respect that. And you are more than welcome to share that opinion. However, if its okay with the rest of you guys, us people who don't like how it is will be over here bitching ineffectually about it. It helps pass the time

Edit to add: And really, you seem a bit pissed that I went and found your "Mythical Doc" that you were so sure did not exist.

[staggerlee]

I'm talking about how things currently are IG, go play, it's easily viewable. It's proof positive.

You don't get the part where you're not supposed to be attacking the rp of others on the board.
For the record, I think the current population of magickers are amazingly well rped, and deserve kudos - not threads bitching about them.

Before you claim you're not complaining about the current magickers, it suuuure looks and sounds that way:

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karma in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

[cyberpatrol_735]

R-O-F-L

[fourTwenty]

I'm not complaining about the RP of magickers. I have nothing against the RP of most Magickers (Notice I said most because there have been a few lately...). It's the way other people RP being around the Magickers. And the reason I put it on the board is because I feel it more as a whole rather than a specific player whom I could send a discreet PM to. Say what you will but I am not alone in this, I hate it when I'm the weird guy because I fear and hate Magick.

[X-D]

Pissed, Not at all. You found the line, congrats. I just think that out of the many thousands of lines of docs, there are people who happen to base entire play styles and GDB threads on that one. Not to mention, Lets face it, it is not even in the RP docs.

And to being the odd one out. I really do not think you are, least in play.

Lets go to an example other then magick, but that has been brought up almost as many times. Hhhmm, racial or cultural...ponders. Lets go with racial, Somebody else can bring up southerners in the sanc again.

So you are playing an elf, Who according to docs really cannot be trusted, you walk into the gaj and sit down, but nobody calls you a skinny thieving necker and moves to another bar. You sit around and a breed shows up. You then make fun of him because thats what your PC would do. But most the other people don't do anything and eventually even start to get on your case about it.

Suddenly, OMG, everybody is going against the docs and being hippy BREED lovers!

As Nyr and other staff has stated many times on all threads like this, It is a matter of perception.

While you feel like the odd man out, being the only one showing hatred for breeds. What you do not know is that dwarf in the corner simply does not give a shit, his focus is not about breeds or elves. The two humans work for a noble house and hate you both equally but just want some quiet. That bynner  next to you is too drunk and tired to care and the other human is actually  hoping you both die, figures if he can piss the elf off he will do something stupid and the soldiers will come own him and the breed will think he can trust him and off to a quiet place they go.

And lets face it, they are unlikley to be able to melt your face off if offended. All the more reason to tiptoe around.

If your PC is being played as having any brains or reason to survive at all, he does not go out and piss off templars or mekillots or mages.

Happily the staff of Arm has added many commands that allow you to roleplay your fear, distrust, terror love etc without using only say/tell/emote We now have Think, feel, mood.

[Rahnevyn]

*twitch*

[Clearsighted]

Most of the reason I'll miss elves from Arm 2.0 is the racism against them.

[cyberpatrol_735]

*twitch*

Oh please please?
Too many arguments on this already.

[fourTwenty]

*twitch*

Go for it.
It has degraded from a discussion to pot-shots, snippy comments and exaggerations.

I've said my piece and am not alone.

Gims, wanna pop in with that thread over thing now?