Mundane vs Magick

[fourTwenty]

So, I think everyone can agree that Magick vs Mundane is not balanced in this game.

There are parts of this equation I like. Magick being uber-powerfull leads to a real fear of Magick which is something all PC's should have. The down side to this is it's not balanced out through RP because most of the people that play this game ignore that part of the documents. Fuck off, don't argue with that part of this post because its true and if you don't think so your fucking slow. I've seen the MAJORITY of the playerbase interact with Magick users as if they were a normal PC, this part is undeniable. Now, I -like- the fact that a Magick user can tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up and have my mundane PC singing Henry the 8th in about two seconds. This however sucks as everybody is special apping magickers before the game ends and in Arm2.0 there will be just as many if not more do to the lack of karma limits.

However this is a game. And as a hardcore gamer of all types I believe in balance. Now in every other RPing game you play they try to keep races as balanced as possible. I'm under the impression that if said Magicker wants to obliterate me he had better do it from way over there, because the second I shove a spear down his throat he should be pretty fucked.

Anyway, I would like to discuss players thoughts on balance.

Ideas to make it more balanced.
Should it be balanced Why/Why not.
Anything else you can think of.


When I first read the docs for this game I was very excited. The idea of Magick being uber-powerful being balanced out by Rp'd fear an rareness sounded fucking awesome. Now I'm sad, this is not working. A large portion of this playerbase ignores the documents where they see fit. Racism, fear of Magick, etc. So, I'm thinking. Should Magick be toned back, Mundanes be beefed up, is there anyway (And this is what I'd really hope) We can make Magick RARE and still uber-powerful. Which is what the docs claim it is in the first place?

[staggerlee]

So, I think everyone can agree that Magick vs Mundane is not balanced in this game.

There are parts of this equation I like. Magick being uber-powerfull leads to a real fear of Magick which is something all PC's should have. The down side to this is it's not balanced out through RP because most of the people that play this game ignore that part of the documents. Fuck off, don't argue with that part of this post because its true and if you don't think so your fucking slow. I've seen the MAJORITY of the playerbase interact with Magick users as if they were a normal PC, this part is undeniable.

This is a flagrantly untrue and harmful assertion.
Sorry but your vehemence and obscenities don't really add any strength to the foundation of your argument.

If that simple statement that the rest of your argument lies on is false... than you don't have much to discuss.  I would however suggest turning to the archives where this has already been discussed about a bajillion times.

[fourTwenty]

Which part of this is not true?

And a matter of fact staggerlee, that kind of post is not helpful to a -discussion-. Will you please elaborate on why you think so as opposed to.  No, that's wrong so there.

[manonfire]

It's balanced.

No, really. It is.

[staggerlee]

Which part of this is not true?

- You won't get any solid insights into how balanced the classes are, or how balanced they are supposed to be on the forum.
- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

[fourTwenty]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

[touringCompl3t3]

I question where the original post is going.

[Gimfalisette]

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

I bet 93% of the playerbase that interacted with that one character of mine last year thought she didn't show evidence of fear and loathing of magick. All of you would be wrong.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.

[fourTwenty]

No Gims, but when I see the exact opposite going on for quite awhile now it makes me wonder.

I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

You want to start a new post on the fear of Magick being Rp'd go ahead. I'm pretty sure we've been around that track -way- to many times.

[staggerlee]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Remember that fear and loathing come in many different forms. It is not always a sneer at a mage's back, or her face, or getting up and taking another seat somewhere. Fear and loathing can be mental, it can be physical, it can be as simple as a belief that mages should be segregated without actually hating them, it can be as complicated as superstition and murder, it could be a belief that mages are good for nothing but pets, it could be a belief that mages are demons secretly, it could be a desire to never be in private with them, or a desire to never be in public with them. The point is, there are millions of ways to have fear and loathing for mages, or races, or anything else. You have got to stop looking for the obvious and start looking for the not-so-obvious.

If everyone thought we should get up and move away when mages came around, or that we should never involve ourselves with them in plots, and if everybody thought mages should be feared and loathed openly by everybody, mages would have nothing to do. And that's not fair to the player.

Feel free to be a player who fears and loathes mages to their face. I'll continue to play a character who has his or her own beliefs and ways of dealing with mages, and how deals with fear and loathing in his own way.

[Gimfalisette]

What staggerlee and 7DV said. Thread over.

[Fathi]

What staggerlee and 7DV said. Thread over.

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

When I have bothered emailing the imms about my concerns regarding some magick affairs, I got an extremely helpful and rapid response from more than one staff member.

However, I am not going to file a complaint against every PC I see doing it because, let's face it, there are too many and they all have IC justifications.

I also admit that I used to be part of the problem. I thought that playing a tribal PC from a tribe that had a certain degree of acceptance for magick would lead to some interesting internal conflict in my character--instead, it usually just ended in my character being unable to idealogically disagree with people who used magick around her and expected her to be okay with it because she was a tribal.

I think the end of the game being announced caused many clans and many characters to run out and try to stockpile magickal lootz and make magickal buddies because everybody wanted to be the last man standing. We are still experiencing the side effects of that, though it has cooled down a bit.

Feel free to disagree with what I'm saying, but I'd like to point out one thing:

Saying that "you only perceive there is a problem" with magick being too embraced by mundanes isn't quite enough to discount complaints on the issue. The second I perceive Bynners allowing spells to be cast on them during a contract, it becomes a problem for me because I so strongly disagree with it. That makes it a real problem, even if it's only for a few players.

My problem is not what people say about "openly showing fear and loathing."

It's that being a character who does thinks and feels about hating magickers while being perfectly content wielding a flaming sword and having magickal armour cast on them is hypocrisy, pure and simple, for the sake of gaining an advantage against one's enemies.

And the fact that this has happened with several prominent PCs who have received no social backlash for doing it over the last two years or so... that points to the fact that there IS a problem.

Keep your quiet, internal fear and loathing--that's perfectly fine and an awesome way to RP conflict with mages. But if you try to tell me you are doing your part to enforce your docs when your magick-hating clan is palling around with the flying flaming warbeetle gang and not expressing distaste when they use their magicks on your character... then you are part of the problem.

Edit: To clarify, this was not a dig at Gimf or her PC. I am using the general 'you' here. There are many ways to RP hating magick, but RPing hating magick and then turning around and being content with reaping magick's benefits when they are offered to your PC--especially if you are in a clan where your magickal hatred is supposed to take precedence over everything else--then you are a fraud and you are trying to justify OOC behaviour.

[a strange shadow]

Magick being a powerful, deadly, yet relatively specific tool, is good.

Magick being so useful, versatile and able to be used to accomplish almost anything a mundane would or could faster and better, is bad.

Magick being the preferred way to accomplish goals and being involved so frequently in plots, since it's easier, is bad.

The fact that those who hold to the documentation and/or their biases against magick/supernatural are being put at such a grave disadvantage in comparison to those who don't, at least from playability standpoints, is bad. Realistically, someone could employ a veritable army of mundane spies to achieve the same effect one man with one <insert karma guild here> could, but that depends entirely on availability of PCs, and even an army of mundane spies will never be as effective as <insert karma guild here> at the task.

For example, a group of various mundane guilds getting together and sent on a mission to explore a dangerous place, possibly making it out alive, and possibly not. You have your fighting types for possible threats, your rangers, etc, for getting there, your thief guilds for those locked doors in that mysterious old ruin. It becomes an event, a story, an interactive challenge to overcome together.

Or Joe Oash could send <insert karma guild here> and check out the whole damn place in a day.

Which one sounds more fun?

Thread not fucking over. Thread has a point, and Shadow has been harping on it for probably a year.

- kthx, shadow out

[fourTwenty]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

[staggerlee]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

My point is that the game can not be coded with the assumption that people will ignore the documentation.  If we're going to throw out the documentation and balance the game for PvP I'm going to go play a real PvP game, with graphics.

Fathi has an excellent  point, but it's unrelated to the question at hand - which is should magick be balanced.   
Bitching about people's rp is all well and good, but somewhat beside the point.

Edit: Because I re-read Shadow's post.

[Nyr]

The good news is that I wrote this response already.

...
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
and here.  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

Players bring this up about once every few months, as you may notice from the links I listed the last time this was brought up. 
I didn't think we were due for another round of "kick the magicker" so soon, though.  At last check, the last spurt of "discussion" happened a month ago.
There was the player-initiated karma-off which resulted in some cessation of who had karma roles, but people still special-apped and some others eventually requested their karma back.
I can't speak for other staff members, but what dakurus said rings true--and it's even been said before by staff members.  People still bring this up, usually with nothing new to bring to the table.  If there is anything new in these discussions it gets trampled by the same old stuff.  I don't even feel compelled to read threads dealing with complaints about magickers anymore. 

I believe it's also worth reading this by Dakurus, referenced above.

The actual number of magickers in the "who" list, or online at any moment is far from directly proportional to the perception of how many magickers are about in the game. It might be 10% or 40%, but it's more about their playtime, where they visit, and what they do. It doesn't take but one or two going to a particular oasis who play most nights to make a significant impression. The same could be said for one or two going to a particular bar. But then there's that one or two that sit in a cave or apartment or temple, which is very low impact with regards to perception. The impact is also proportional to the area in which players limit themselves. One or two magickers playing regularly in the rinth, would dramaticly affect perception for rinthis, while one or two who wandered far and wide in the waste might have less of an impression. Some magickers can travel rapidly from place to place but it's not unlikely that they'll visit similar places to mundanes, be it for water, food, goods, interaction, or otherwise. There are bound to be interactions on the few roads, few bars, few wateringholes, few resource gathering spots, and so on. The interaction between two magickers meeting at these spots, two mundanes, or a mix, is very different in every case, and even made more different based on culture. The frequency, material covered, and resolution of these occurances (sometimes decided by one player, sometimes both) also has a heavy affect on perception.

That said, it is the responsibility of players to adhere to the documentation.
It is not the responsibility of players to deal with complaints about players if someone is not adhering to the documentation.
If you notice someone not adhering to the documentation and it cannot be dealt with in-character, then:
Player request > player complaint > I think this guy/gal is not following the documentation and here's why (add logs/evidence/opinions) > submit

[a strange shadow]

My post is not off topic at all, staggerlee.

My post illustrates why mundanes should be better balanced against magickers.

This whole "well people just aren't RPing good enough" is what strikes me as more tangential.

(I'm not sure why I even bother to post on threads like these. It just pisses me off and we get snarky "it's been said" responses. If it's been said so often, why hasn't anything been done about it? The vast majority of code changes I see end up benefitting mages more than mundanes.)

[Fathi]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

My point is that the game can not be coded with the assumption that people will ignore the documentation.  If we're going to throw out the documentation and balance the game for PvP I'm going to go play a real PvP game, with graphics.

Fathi and Shadow both have excellent points, but they're unrelated to the question at hand - which is should magick be balanced.   
Bitching about people's rp is all well and good, but somewhat beside the point.

Actually, the point I was trying to make is that if the documentation were enforced more strictly, there wouldn't be a need to even consider "balancing" mages and mundanes.

Part of the "balance" to magick-wielding classes is supposed to be the roleplayed social consequences of being a magicker or associated with one.

If we are discussing the issue of balance, I think this point is just as important as actual balancing of code, because that social pressure is a large part of the staff's attempt to balance the game in that regard.

[staggerlee]

My post is not off topic at all, staggerlee.

My post illustrates why mundanes should be better balanced against magickers.

This whole "well people just aren't RPing good enough" is what strikes me as more tangential.

Sorry you got in before my edit.  I see what you're saying.

[Gimfalisette]

Magick being a powerful, deadly, yet relatively specific tool, is good.

Magick being so useful, versatile and able to be used to accomplish almost anything a mundane would or could faster and better, is bad.

Magick being the preferred way to accomplish goals and being involved so frequently in plots, since it's easier, is bad.

None of those can be changed in the current game, except by talking about RP and leadership, which 420 claims wasn't the point of his thread. He's apparently interested in combat balance, which won't achieve what you want...even if it was to be worked toward, which it won't be.

It's not even the roleplay of fear and loathing which is the real issue, at that point. It's the willingness of apped leadership to do things the hard way, instead of the easy way.

[a strange shadow]

As long as code continues to so drastically favor magickers in almost any situation, that will never happen.

It IS possible to better balance mages, and I've got plenty of ideas that can't be posted here.

Re-read my post please. This thread exploded too fast for my edit and further explanation.

[Tisiphone]

I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

Welcome to the GDB, where the discussion goes where 'twill.

[fourTwenty]

Actually, if you read my post, I like the fact that a Mage will wipe the floor with a Mundane. This should, according to the docs which nobody has suggested be thrown out, be balanced by an RP'd fear and loathing. I was simply stating that if in fact Magick could not be kept RARE, which directly affects the levels of fear and loathing, then yes. There should be some sort of combat balance. I had a 30day warrior that died in all of 4 seconds to a mage. AND I LOVED IT. Because it was well played out and in cohesion with the Docs. That was over a year ago and ever since then what was already a shaky base of fear and loathing has taken a nosedive.

Maybe Fathi said it much better than I did but I have seen PC's bitching about Magickers and then getting Magickers to fill cisterns and such for them, calming a fear of Magick and then "Look, I have a fireball shooting stick I found!", or my personal favorite. Oh no, this person is hurt bad, do you need a healer, only if they're Magick.

[fourTwenty]

It IS possible to better balance mages, and I've got plenty of ideas that can't be posted here.

KICK ASS! Sucks that they can't be posted publicly but at least he has ideas! I wish it could be balanced purely by RP but I just don't see that happening.

[Mood]

More people would roleplay out the fear and hatred that should be associated with magickal dealings if there were some reinforcement other than the docs. The docs aren't enough, obviously; harping on people on the GDB to play faithfully to them hasn't done much yet, so why do you think it's going to do something more?

A much more effective way to deal with the problem comes from the immortals and, perhaps to a lesser extent, clan leaders. Kick asses, enforce cultural taboos, and be general bigoted pricks (ICly), and I think you'll see more of it from the playerbase as a whole. A sneer from an NPC at the Gaj can go a long way.

[Fathi]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

However, I stand by my point that the balance in roleplay is just as important as the balance in code.

If magickers were highly ostracized and people were made into pariahs for hiring them, mundanes and their players would feel significantly less threatened about magickers being picked over them for jobs or magickers being favoured to complete tasks.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Here's what I think should happen.

• Magick should stay extremely powerful, both in this game and the next.  "Balance" in the coded sense will only serve to make magick more commonplace and, frankly, more boring.
• Magick should be extremely powerful in more subtle, less predictable ways.
• Magick should be just a little more rare than it currently is.  Part of this can be solved through the RP of both magicker and mundane players.  If you ask me, a plot that features magick should be something special, and is not necessarily bad.
• Magick should remain extremely useful, even for things that mundanes should do.  However, there should be consequences to working with a mage.  Perhaps a magick weapon takes, say, one point of mana per swing; if you have no mana, it draws from your hit points or perhaps stamina instead, and at a higher rate, thus discouraging mundanes from seeking out powerful magick weapons.  Things like that, I think, will help to discourage mundanes from being too casual about the use of magick--I can still see a reason to hire a mage to do something, but I don't think it should be done casually and there should always be that layer of distrust.

Coded balance is by far not the best solution.  Yes, I understand that losing a long-lived mundane character to a magicker simply because you had no counter to said magicker sucks, but if we can make sure that the sort of player who randomly PKs for little to no reason is not the sort of player who gets to play a mage, then you can make sure that you don't put your character in the position that a mage has to kill you.

Yes, I know, I'm an idealist, but I'd hate to see magick become commonplace and weak in the name of "balance."  I realize that's not what the OP was talking about, but I keep seeing it brought up.

More people would roleplay out the fear and hatred that should be associated with magickal dealings if there were some reinforcement other than the docs. The docs aren't enough, obviously; harping on people on the GDB to play faithfully to them hasn't done much yet, so why do you think it's going to do something more?

A much more effective way to deal with the problem comes from the immortals and, perhaps to a lesser extent, clan leaders. Kick asses, enforce cultural taboos, and be general bigoted pricks (ICly), and I think you'll see more of it from the playerbase as a whole. A sneer from an NPC at the Gaj can go a long way.

For now, however, let's go with this.

[staggerlee]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

However, I stand by my point that the balance in roleplay is just as important as the balance in code.

If magickers were highly ostracized and people were made into pariahs for hiring them, mundanes and their players would feel significantly less threatened about magickers being picked over them for jobs or magickers being favoured to complete tasks.

I'd say that balance in roleplay is far, far, far more important than balance in code.  Which has been my point all along.

Shadow is right that specializing magickers for particular tasks would make it harder to compete with mundanes, but what it comes down to is that if people aren't following the docs, what's the point?  

The entire base assumption of this thread is inherently negative.  

I agree with Mood. And Shadow. And  Fathi.

[fourTwenty]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

Screw it.
Apparently only one person has any coded ideas for balance, but I like Moods post. If RP is the root of the problem how can we help influence the playerbase to remain a bit truer than the docs? Other than running to tattle to the Staff, which is just not my style.

[fourTwenty]

NF, those are some great points and ideas.

Staggerlee, my point remains unchanged. This has been harped on for a long time now and it has not affected noticeable RP by one iota. If it can' be balanced by RP then I feel we would need to implement some of NF's ideas or others, to codedly balance the lack of RP.

[Fathi]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

Screw it.
Apparently only one person has any coded ideas for balance, but I like Moods post. If RP is the root of the problem how can we help influence the playerbase to remain a bit truer than the docs? Other than running to tattle to the Staff, which is just not my style.

I think what it boils down to--and not to knock on your original idea, it was made with good intentions--is that a lot of people don't really have issues with the hard-boiled code of magick and magickers.

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

I think the issue at hand is being a little mis-labeled, as well. (Either of you can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

People like Shadow don't want to see magickers and mundanes balanced in terms of coded power and kickassery.

They want "balance" in the sense that they want equal opportunities for roles within the gameworld, a niche where both mage and mundane can coexist in the game itself without the scales tipping too heavily in favour of one or the other.

[Clearsighted]

It seems pretty clear to me.

Yes. Various magick-related fuckery should be powerful. However, in order for something to be truly scary, it has to be rare.

When you can't leave the gates without stumbling over a rogue mage or two, or even an entire squadron of gemmed, every other week...You're going to build up certain mental callouses. Hell. Especially after you've killed one or two...I.E, "If it can bleed, it can die!"

The more common something is, the more it has to be relatively balanced. You can't expect people to treat your magicker with fear and awe, when half the PCs they meet are gemmed or ungemmed, and they got over the fear and awe hump already in that PC's existence.

Eventually, you're going to realize that there are some awesomely powerful elementalists or what have you...And react accordingly. But you're also gonna realize that most are foolish amateurs in over their heads. Just as there are foolish members of any other profession or race.

I don't think magick needs to be made more powerful just to make us more scared of the amateurs. The knowledgeable mages are already hideous. And I need ZERO documentation to treat them with fear.

[fourTwenty]

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karma in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

[Clearsighted]

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karam in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

I too am troubled by the certainty of magick being all over the place in 2.arm. Tank mages and such.

I wish they would leave the first six months of 2.arm to just mundanes and spec apped magick.

[Boggis]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

[Marauder Moe]

Instead of producing more magicker hate by hating magickers, how about producing more magicker hate by loving magickers?

Seriously!  Nothing gets people riled up quite like seeing some propper 'nakki citizen kissing a gemmer in public.

I think a few players of magickers and a few players of people friendly with magickers should take one for the team and make a little effort to have your character fall in love with someone they shouldn't.

In addition to getting the general population's blood boiling, it also makes for some great player-driven plots.

[Desertman]

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

[NoteworthyFellow]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

I'd be in favor of seeing some sort of "other cost" for using magick, so long as it's extremely creative and happens slowly at first, then increases in the long term.  Perhaps one's element will eventually mark them physically as they get closer to it (through mastering their powers), thus marking someone without a doubt as magickal.  This would mean that rogue magickers would have to find some way of covering up the mark (which could be things such as the skin on a certain part of their body taking on a permanent stony appearance and feel for a Rukkian or a glowing orange rune of Suk-Krath slowly appearing on a Krathi's chest).

Perhaps make magick addictive like spice, as well.  If you get magicked on in a positive way enough, you start to develop a coded addiction to it.  Let's say you're a warrior and you're accustomed to working with a mage who can increase your strength.  Eventually, you become dependent on it, and your base strength drops (as a sort of withdrawal system) when you don't get a dose of the magick often enough.  Eventually, you can break the addiction, but magick withdrawal is just as nasty (or perhaps even nastier) than spice withdrawal.  Even magickers can become addicted to magick--of course, it's easier for them to get their fix if they can do it themselves.  (EDIT: Upon thinking about this, I really like this idea and may suggest it for 2.Arm.)

[staggerlee]

This is one of those threads where we all make wild accusations and claim to be the only person acting according to the documentation...  there's obviously some bad data floating around if that many people are playing by the docs and still perceiving a problem.

The good news is that I wrote this response already.

...
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
and here.  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

Players bring this up about once every few months, as you may notice from the links I listed the last time this was brought up. 
I didn't think we were due for another round of "kick the magicker" so soon, though.  At last check, the last spurt of "discussion" happened a month ago.
There was the player-initiated karma-off which resulted in some cessation of who had karma roles, but people still special-apped and some others eventually requested their karma back.
I can't speak for other staff members, but what dakurus said rings true--and it's even been said before by staff members.  People still bring this up, usually with nothing new to bring to the table.  If there is anything new in these discussions it gets trampled by the same old stuff.  I don't even feel compelled to read threads dealing with complaints about magickers anymore. 

I believe it's also worth reading this by Dakurus, referenced above.

The actual number of magickers in the "who" list, or online at any moment is far from directly proportional to the perception of how many magickers are about in the game. It might be 10% or 40%, but it's more about their playtime, where they visit, and what they do. It doesn't take but one or two going to a particular oasis who play most nights to make a significant impression. The same could be said for one or two going to a particular bar. But then there's that one or two that sit in a cave or apartment or temple, which is very low impact with regards to perception. The impact is also proportional to the area in which players limit themselves. One or two magickers playing regularly in the rinth, would dramaticly affect perception for rinthis, while one or two who wandered far and wide in the waste might have less of an impression. Some magickers can travel rapidly from place to place but it's not unlikely that they'll visit similar places to mundanes, be it for water, food, goods, interaction, or otherwise. There are bound to be interactions on the few roads, few bars, few wateringholes, few resource gathering spots, and so on. The interaction between two magickers meeting at these spots, two mundanes, or a mix, is very different in every case, and even made more different based on culture. The frequency, material covered, and resolution of these occurances (sometimes decided by one player, sometimes both) also has a heavy affect on perception.

That said, it is the responsibility of players to adhere to the documentation.
It is not the responsibility of players to deal with complaints about players if someone is not adhering to the documentation.
If you notice someone not adhering to the documentation and it cannot be dealt with in-character, then:
Player request > player complaint > I think this guy/gal is not following the documentation and here's why (add logs/evidence/opinions) > submit

[Sephiroto]

Mundane v. Magicker wouldn't be such a big issue if the playerbase was balanced the way it was 5 or 6 years ago.  

I can't say for sure whether or not karma is easier to get now adays, but this whole special app thing was irking me until about 6 months ago.

Magickers should be powerful.  They bend the elements.  Mundanes in mass v. magickers solves a lot of problem.

With less mundane characters due to there being more magickers, it's now mundanes in lesser mass v. magickers in small masses.  This is a little dangerous.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

[Desertman]

Oh come on, "Magicker Hating" threads are the grease that keep the GDB Machine producing. Dont ruin the fun.

[Desertman]

Mundane v. Magicker wouldn't be such a big issue if the playerbase was balanced the way it was 5 or 6 years ago.  

I can't say for sure whether or not karma is easier to get now adays, but this whole special app thing was irking me until about 6 months ago.

Magickers should be powerful.  They bend the elements.  Mundanes in mass v. magickers solves a lot of problem.

With less mundane characters due to there being more magickers, it's now mundanes in lesser mass v. magickers in small masses.  This is a little dangerous.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

Praise the Lord!!!

(That means I agree, ten fold.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

I honestly agree with you entirely.  My own suggestions were to decrease the frequency of magickers being used in mundane plots, but still allow for it.  Sometimes the magick isn't needed enough that it's worth risking the side-effects, addiction, what-have-you, but sometimes, it is.  Magick should be powerful enough to warrant its use in some mundane plots, but risky enough to make it worth it not to use it every time.

[Sephiroto]

I agree with what 7DV is saying about magickers in Allanaki society.  Nobles use them.  Templars use them.  They have their own quarter.  Shouldn't they be more openly accepted in Allanak?

That still doesn't change the way I regard magickers in the game overall or in other city-states/outposts/tribal camps.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My own suggestions were to decrease the frequency of magickers being used in mundane plots, but still allow for it.

I could agree with this, except for one thing. In a great many situations cast upon us by staff, if you don't use them, you seem to be setting yourself up to die. If a leader has any brains at all, fear and loathing will be out-weighed by a need to live and more importantly, win. Furthermore, this STILL hurts mage-players' enjoyment, because it cuts them out of the a great portion of plots. Suddenly, mundane players get all the fun and we have mages wailing about that.

Sometimes the magick isn't needed enough that it's worth risking the side-effects, addiction, what-have-you, but sometimes, it is.

I'd give you this as well, but we know the reality of that. ICly, some of us know the IC reality of that. It doesn't make sense, in 1.0.

Magick should be powerful enough to warrant its use in some mundane plots, but risky enough to make it worth it not to use it every time.

If it were actually risky BEYOND a mistype or typo during a spell, which doesn't seem to happen that much, I could get behind this as well. But there is a reality that anybody with an eye open can see. A good mage is a good mage. ICly, you can RP fear and disgust all you want, but when a magicker of some sort saves your life, does their best to die for you, or other such things, I simply do not understand why it would make sense ICly for smart people to continue to hate and shun them.

There are good mages who would die for the Highlord, and there are bad mages. ICly, we know who to fear and who not to. Spitting on and discarding all that is good about the mages your Highlord sanctions because in 500 years you have never gotten around to understanding that the Highlord is wise is a little cheese. But maybe that's because magick is too powerful. It's not like elves, where you can get a human to do the same job only better.

Good things don't get tossed aside forever in real life, and I don't know why it would IG. Superstition only carries you so far, before you realize that it is just not realistic anymore, particularly in such a diverse and 'civilized' enviroment such as Allanak.

In 2.0, I would dearly love to see a far more serious definition of mages, where you actually understand that mages are bad for your health, if that is the way staff wants to go. You want rare magick? Make a mage limited in friendly territory, and make it hard to level, or at least equal to the other classes.

[fourTwenty]

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

Every single bit of this, yes sir.

I'd be in favor of seeing some sort of "other cost" for using magick, so long as it's extremely creative and happens slowly at first, then increases in the long term.  Perhaps one's element will eventually mark them physically as they get closer to it (through mastering their powers), thus marking someone without a doubt as magickal.  This would mean that rogue magickers would have to find some way of covering up the mark (which could be things such as the skin on a certain part of their body taking on a permanent stony appearance and feel for a Rukkian or a glowing orange rune of Suk-Krath slowly appearing on a Krathi's chest).

Perhaps make magick addictive like spice, as well.  If you get magicked on in a positive way enough, you start to develop a coded addiction to it.  Let's say you're a warrior and you're accustomed to working with a mage who can increase your strength.  Eventually, you become dependent on it, and your base strength drops (as a sort of withdrawal system) when you don't get a dose of the magick often enough.  Eventually, you can break the addiction, but magick withdrawal is just as nasty (or perhaps even nastier) than spice withdrawal.  Even magickers can become addicted to magick--of course, it's easier for them to get their fix if they can do it themselves.  (EDIT: Upon thinking about this, I really like this idea and may suggest it for 2.Arm.)

I really like this. And also there was a previously mentioned idea about having a spell backfire and fuck people up every now and then that I liked.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

This is so true, it makes me sad.


On Magick in 'Nak.
I always thought that 'gickers ins 'Nak should be way more openly despised. They're marked, they're like a fucking leper. Don't make friends with the weird little freak, get away before it eats your babies. Templar Magick is different, it's provided by the Highlord and should inspire awe.


I'll be damned. This thread totally devolved into a discussion on Magick balance and ideas to help work with it.
I'm so happy

[Hot_Dancer]

I can't think of a time when the Soh have embraced magick in any sort of recent history. Embrace
is a strong and quite misleading word.

As far as I am aware of, any Soh who has ever been put a situation of openly tolerate or cooperate was
full of heavy internal turmoil and confusion. There is also the concept of plain fear of reprisal against themselves
or their tribe should they decide to act out against a known witch.

Often times, a small (or even large) tribe in the Tablelands will have little to no defense versus
one wiggler on his/her period.

[WarriorPoet]

I would simply like to see the incredible power that magickers wield balanced against more serious setbacks.

I think of Dragonlance and Raistlin. His power was IMMENSE, but the price was terribly heavy.

[jhunter]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

I think this is the best post of the thread and has the most straight up truth to it. It fits my perception of things currently. Every city on Zalanthas isn't supposed to be another version of Tuluk. Some people seem to be stuck on this misperception that it's supposed to be like Tuluk everywhere.

[fourTwenty]

Uh, way off base dude.
I hate Tuluk. I dont have anything near a good reason. I just do.

[Qzzrbl]

Oh... This thread again?

I don't feel like typing up my usual response.... Thankfully Desertman and Fathi have done it for me already.

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

[Qzzrbl]

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

It couldn't -possibly- have anything to do with the fact that we've all realized that black people are just regular old humans too, right?

I mean, if they could fart lightning bolts and shoot fire from their fingertips, and could steal your soul, and could utter a few words and nuke your ass,  and could do all of these other logic and science defying things that are very scary to everyone, maaaybe things would be a little different.

[Lakota]

I can't think of a time when the Soh have embraced magick in any sort of recent history. Embrace
is a strong and quite misleading word.

You're right, a negative perception could arise as a result of the use of words of this nature. How about "use," eh?

Would you like me to name the actual weapons/magickal items I've seen Soh Lanah Kah use in a pm directed towards you?

Granted, said people may not have embraced magick, but that sure didn't stop them from taking advantage of the positive effects that occur as a result of said magickal weapons/items.

Discretion is key. Would your pc do it, regardless of the ideals/beliefs of his/her tribe?

[/derail]

[Lizzie]

I think there are lots of times when magicks can be *tolerated*. And plenty of situations when they -should be- tolerated. That doesn't mean they have to be liked, or accepted, or embraced. Tolerating something while gritting your teeth and wishing you didn't have to tolerate it, is a far cry from declaring your undying love for the neighborhood krathi.

As for balance, there certainly is no balance, and I'm damned glad of it. As for acting appropriately to that lack of balance, I feel it's mostly a lot of newer players who do this, because they come from games where the documentation says one thing, but the acceptable and expected roleplay is entirely different. For instance, a half-elf might be loathed (that's pretty universal in muds, I've learned), according to the docs. But you see half-elves marrying humans, mating with Highmen, having kids with dwarves, and no one really cares that the docs say half-elves are the scum of the planet.

I agree with the complaint that this "inappropriate" attitude toward the intentional imbalance is frustrating, and unfortunate. I just don't feel that it's necessarily a reflection of most of the more seasoned roleplayers I've seen in the game so far. I've had characters be -slowly- exposed to magickers on such a regular basis, that they really couldn't help but learn to get along with them - and even form a cautious friendship with a couple. That doesn't mean she was a magicker-lover. But it does mean she had enough *positive* reinforcement from the ones she met, that she was able to be in their company without blowing chunks.

[Fool]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

I was reading through this thinking something similar. Backlash, or the potential for backlash is important. Means that the social origins of magick hate have a foundation that characters can understand and experience.

Actually backlash would be more about when using their powers. You could also add in negative factors into how magickers gain their powers since play time and practice don't really have a negative impact on other players. So to become powerful (or at least powerful quickly) they have to do "bad" things.

Some ideas:

Elementalist: Human sacrifice has a long tradition. The elements require a ritual death in order to grant their powers to a mortal, or grant greater powers. When using powers there is a chance that backlash affects affects surrounding mortals, like a Krathi using a power and the mortals in the room gettings burnt (dmg dependant on level of power). The caster could attempt to limit the backlash but this would cause the power to be weaker or take longer. Newb casters wouldn't have developed the control needed to limit backlash making older ones more prized.

Sorcs: Hmm. Ok how about everytime they draw power to cast they potentially age those nearby to power the spell. This age drain determines how powerful the sorc is over time. So basically the more they cast and drain people the more their powers grow. Again casters that have developed control could try to limit this with lowered power inc time, and they wouldn't be growing in power.

Or they could cause mutations. Not the cool kind either, no one wants to be Captain Penisface even if they can fly. Cause temporary/permanent stat drops.

Psi: I don't know they need one. The idea that someone can read my thoughts is motive enough to off them.

As for items. Hmm its a toss up between having the making of involving  horribleness, and horribleness upon using, or both. Horribleness on using could be things like a flaming sword that translates anything said by a skinny into "I kanked your mum, your dad, and when you sleep..." or simply that there is a chance that you refuse to give it up and cannot ever get rid of it, or it draws scrabs like flies on shit.

Standard Fool Disclaimer: I make suggestions without any claim to insight or understanding.

[fourTwenty]

Move to the south, meet a racist. They aint hard to spot. See how long it takes this racists irrational hate of all things <hated race> to start tolerating them.

[Qzzrbl]

Speaking of racism.... It's kinda funny how some players have no trouble hating elves and half-elves, yet it's a whole 'nother story when it comes to magickers. Innit?

[Clearsighted]

Speaking of racism.... It's kinda funny how some players have no trouble hating elves and half-elves, yet it's a whole 'nother story when it comes to magickers. Innit?

Because elves and half-elves inspire contempt, not fear.

[X-D]

Alright, First, I've only read the first page of this thread.

Second, Nyr's first post on it shows that not only is this talk not new, it is also based on false assumptions.

Third, WHERE ARE THESE DOCS? Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "every mundane fears and loathes mages and magick" Because even though I've read every bit of the public docs several times over in the last 16 years, I have been unable to find that line.

Fathi, Sorry, I only read half of your first post and I find it to be lacking. "embrasing" magick as a tool is actually Following the docs, not against them.

Fourtwenty also bases his arguement on this bit of mythical docs and you know what, he is also dead wrong. Most PCs, and by most, I mean around 99% of the ones I've seen do indeed play like they have that mythical line painted on the wall behind their monitor.

Now, let us look at the docs that do exist.

For this reason sun mages are often feared and distrusted, and perhaps rightly so, for who would take up to learn magicks which were entirely battle-oriented?

The spells of sun mages typically invoke Suk-krath, which is the name of fire, the name of the Sun, and the name of the elemental plane of fire.

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat. Although a mage may have certain goals in mind for his/her life, the fact remains that sun mages can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

If you do not understand the difference between Often and Always, please spend some time on Dictionary.com. Also notice the word employed.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys. Stone mages are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Not only will the general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

Void mage spells often invoke the name of Nilaz, the elemental plane of void. Their magicks involve extra-planar spacial manipulations, blocking the other elements, and even some control over the nature of death.

Employment is only found in some other job, as their abilities aren't generally desired by few but those seeking quick movement of masses of people.

Hhhhmm, according to the docs, even the dreaded nilazi is only distrusted by the general populance. And a rukkian can actually be desirable.

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Hhhmm, widespread unease. Alright, so far I cannot find feared and loathed...hell, the docs state that a water mage can be desirerable...Huh.

Even less than sun mages, however, wind mages are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his/her mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.

Wind mage spells often invoke the name of Whira, the elemental plane of air. Their magicks involve becoming unseen, traveling at high speeds or to places normally inaccessible, and crossing large distances in the blink of an eye.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

In Allanak, magickers are required to register their presence with the Templarate immediately, and to wear a marker of their status for the rest of their lives. (This marker is supposedly a black gem worn at the neck.) As such, registered magickers in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city.

Wow, even there it only says "generally", not Always.

Oh, and as far as the OP. There is already balance. Every class in the game is working EXACTLY the way they are intended.

[fourTwenty]

If you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use.

1.That's straight from the Magick helpfile. It is not a mythical Doc. http://www.armageddon.org/general/magick.html  16 years and you've not read that?

2. If your not going to read the whole thread then your post is bound to be redundant and you've missed some good points.

Edit to add 3. I can think of a few other classes that the players would disagree they work exactly as intended.

[X-D]

Ah, yes, but let us quote the entire thing for context shall we?

Note: this file is intended for uses who are already familiar with the basics of the magick system of Armageddon. If you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use.

The statement is, this page is not intended for you unless you already know something.

Even staff admits that this is just VERY general information and that one should read the rest of the docs to be properly informed..

Again, Feared and loathed throughout the known world is not the same as Feared and loathed by everybody every where. And leaves room for places in the known world where it might not be feared and loathed. Which I can tell you do exist.

Keep em coming though. Basing your entire roleplaying experiance on a single line of a bit of newbie docs reminds me of bible thumpers who only follow or quote what they want to be true, ignoring everything else in the bible you point out to them that contradicts the belief.

Hey Morg, any thoughts on changing that little blurb to come into line with the rest of the docs? It really should say "Generally feared and loathed".

[fourTwenty]

Dude, the feck are yah smokin'?

There's your mythical doc, it says "FEARED AND LOATHED THROUGHOUT THE KNOWN."

Deny it if you want but don't compare me to a bible thumper. That's what the Docs say, whether it took you 16 years to find it or not.

[fourTwenty]

Alright, First, I've only read the first page of this thread.

Read the whole thread, trust me it helps.

Third, WHERE ARE THESE DOCS? Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "every mundane fears and loathes mages and magick" Because even though I've read every bit of the public docs several times over in the last 16 years, I have been unable to find that line.

Showed you that already.

Fathi, Sorry, I only read half of your first post and I find it to be lacking.

Read the rest of it, I found she made good points.

Fourtwenty also bases his arguement on this bit of mythical docs and you know what, he is also dead wrong. Most PCs, and by most, I mean around 99% of the ones I've seen do indeed play like they have that mythical line painted on the wall behind their monitor.

No, as with the existence of that Doc, it is you who is dead wrong.

Now, let us look at the docs that do exist.

For this reason sun mages are often feared and distrusted, and perhaps rightly so, for who would take up to learn magicks which were entirely battle-oriented?

The spells of sun mages typically invoke Suk-krath, which is the name of fire, the name of the Sun, and the name of the elemental plane of fire.

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat. Although a mage may have certain goals in mind for his/her life, the fact remains that sun mages can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

If you do not understand the difference between Often and Always, please spend some time on Dictionary.com. Also notice the word employed.

It is rarely RP'd that was which seems to be the crux of this discussion, again read the whole post. Do you understand the difference between rarely and often?

Not only will the general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

Hhhhmm, according to the docs, even the dreaded nilazi is only distrusted by the general populance. And a rukkian can actually be desirable.

WTF! The very next line says all other elementalist seek to drive them from exstance.

<skipped a lot here cause its beating a dead horse and already been discussed and I'm getting tired of this shit>

Oh, and as far as the OP. There is already balance. Every class in the game is working EXACTLY the way they are intended.
HA!

[X-D]

Lets go to your method then.

Your quoted docs are wrong, Mine are right...Thump thump.

(not bothering to quote post, I'll just answer in order)
As Nyr posted, this thread is not new, Read the entire thing, shit, I have many times over in all the other ones I actually bothered to waste my time reading, talk about beating a dead horse.

No, you have not showed me already, you continue to ignore key points only posting what you think will back up your argument. Here, let me bold something you ignored.
((Yes, I want somebody to post the doc that says "EVERY mundane fears and loathes mages and magick"))

If the premise is wrong then the points made, no matter how good are also wrong.

Really, you actually have proof that I am wrong on finding that most PCs are played correctly in regaurds to magick? Hold on, let me check the wizlist here...Oh wait, your not on it, Gee. Know what this means? Wiat, I know I need to make this big or it will be ignored. YOU ARE NOT ON STAFF AND CANNOT KNOW.

I have found it to be RP'd almost all the time. How many mages have you played in say the last 5 RL years? Of them, how many lasted for over 20 days played? Of the ones that did, how many mundane PCs did your mages interact with? For me that is, For me the answers are, 7, all of them, Hundreds. In that time I think I met maybe 5 PCs who were played poorly in how they reacted to magick in a social setting, and another 20 or so in a wilderness setting, in All of those cases, they RP'd out the loathing part and forgot the fear, They all died. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of PCs my mages come in contact with are well played in my opinion regarding magick.

Of course they do, but we are not talking about what an elementalist should be played like. Get back on track buddy. hell, its your thread, read the title again then if you want to talk about magick verses magick..Oh, there is the title for your next thread. Moving on.


Ah, a scoff, the true admittance of somebody who has no clue.

Oh, and come up with at least enough matching lines of text from different parts of the docs to back your "all must fear and loath" Theary would you? Otherwise I'm gonna have to thump my quotes as true because there are more of them.

[fourTwenty]

Your living in your own world amigo. Nobody said EVERYbody was suppose to hate Magick. Read the rest of the thread. Go read your on post, or my post, or somebodies post because you make no sense.

And sorry, I didn't realize you were staff and knew more about this than I did. Oh wait.

I'm talking about how things currently are IG, go play, it's easily viewable. It's proof positive.

If you have ideas I would love to hear them. However the viewpoint, Magick is fine and nothing needs to be fixed, is one that I and others do not agree with. You have clearly stated you think Magick is fine and needs no adjustment, that is your opinion and I respect that. And you are more than welcome to share that opinion. However, if its okay with the rest of you guys, us people who don't like how it is will be over here bitching ineffectually about it. It helps pass the time

Edit to add: And really, you seem a bit pissed that I went and found your "Mythical Doc" that you were so sure did not exist.

[staggerlee]

I'm talking about how things currently are IG, go play, it's easily viewable. It's proof positive.

You don't get the part where you're not supposed to be attacking the rp of others on the board.
For the record, I think the current population of magickers are amazingly well rped, and deserve kudos - not threads bitching about them.

Before you claim you're not complaining about the current magickers, it suuuure looks and sounds that way:

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karma in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

[cyberpatrol_735]

R-O-F-L

[fourTwenty]

I'm not complaining about the RP of magickers. I have nothing against the RP of most Magickers (Notice I said most because there have been a few lately...). It's the way other people RP being around the Magickers. And the reason I put it on the board is because I feel it more as a whole rather than a specific player whom I could send a discreet PM to. Say what you will but I am not alone in this, I hate it when I'm the weird guy because I fear and hate Magick.

[X-D]

Pissed, Not at all. You found the line, congrats. I just think that out of the many thousands of lines of docs, there are people who happen to base entire play styles and GDB threads on that one. Not to mention, Lets face it, it is not even in the RP docs.

And to being the odd one out. I really do not think you are, least in play.

Lets go to an example other then magick, but that has been brought up almost as many times. Hhhmm, racial or cultural...ponders. Lets go with racial, Somebody else can bring up southerners in the sanc again.

So you are playing an elf, Who according to docs really cannot be trusted, you walk into the gaj and sit down, but nobody calls you a skinny thieving necker and moves to another bar. You sit around and a breed shows up. You then make fun of him because thats what your PC would do. But most the other people don't do anything and eventually even start to get on your case about it.

Suddenly, OMG, everybody is going against the docs and being hippy BREED lovers!

As Nyr and other staff has stated many times on all threads like this, It is a matter of perception.

While you feel like the odd man out, being the only one showing hatred for breeds. What you do not know is that dwarf in the corner simply does not give a shit, his focus is not about breeds or elves. The two humans work for a noble house and hate you both equally but just want some quiet. That bynner  next to you is too drunk and tired to care and the other human is actually  hoping you both die, figures if he can piss the elf off he will do something stupid and the soldiers will come own him and the breed will think he can trust him and off to a quiet place they go.

And lets face it, they are unlikley to be able to melt your face off if offended. All the more reason to tiptoe around.

If your PC is being played as having any brains or reason to survive at all, he does not go out and piss off templars or mekillots or mages.

Happily the staff of Arm has added many commands that allow you to roleplay your fear, distrust, terror love etc without using only say/tell/emote We now have Think, feel, mood.

[Rahnevyn]

*twitch*

[Clearsighted]

Most of the reason I'll miss elves from Arm 2.0 is the racism against them.

[cyberpatrol_735]

*twitch*

Oh please please?
Too many arguments on this already.

[fourTwenty]

*twitch*

Go for it.
It has degraded from a discussion to pot-shots, snippy comments and exaggerations.

I've said my piece and am not alone.

Gims, wanna pop in with that thread over thing now?

[Riev]

This whole thread is a tl;dr for me, but I will say this:


I have actually received player kudos before, for my portrayal of fear of magick. While the death itself I think could have had -real- RP to it, and I find the class that did it to be attractive to those that want a quick kill, I try to RP the best I can...

Run away one room and shout. Emote struggling against a subdue or a magick spell... anything. I did it when I was PLAYING a magick character too. Fear of death runs through my brain, and into my fingers. If I think I am going to die, I might as well make it entertaining. My character may have died 4 hours in because someone was bored, but damned if I didn't make a scene.

[jhunter]

You shouldn't log in and play when you're bored. That usually ends in your character dying.

[Bushranger]

You shouldn't log in and play when you're bored. That usually ends in your character dying.

Same goes for when tired and/or drunk.

R.I.P my characters who have died from these things!

Bushranger

[jhunter]

The loss of a good character due to RL drunkeness is the shits. I still think about that and get bummed.

Friends don't let friends spamwalk their Arm characters while drunk.

[Desertman]

*twitch*

I had a PC who used to *twitch* right before he smashed in someone's face for pissing him off...

Something tells me this is not a good sign for this thread and its vitality.

I'm just saying...

[FightClub]

Ideas to make it more balanced.

Take your number of sorc's currently in game, make that the limit for magickers currently active in the game.
Take your number of immortals currently visible during the day, and make that the limit for sorc's

Problem solved.

[Armaddict]

As Nyr stated on page 1 (The only page I read in yet another long magicker thread), this has been an issue for a long time, and there has been plenty of discussion on it.  Yet another thread is unlikely to do anything about it.

However, I will state that I have one glaring disagreement...the classes should not be balanced.  At all.  Turn this into a PvP game and you take away the very essence of it.  This is not about whether or not you're able to kill that guy or that guy with this strat or that strat.  This is not WoW.  This is not a balanced game.  This is a role-playing game, and those classes fit into it the way they are supposed to...they give your character a skillset that fits their role.  I'm sorry that your merchant can't fight that warrior.  But that is not his role.  Likewise, I'm sorry your warrior can get bullied by a powerful magicker.  But taking down magickers is not his role.  Not unless he becomes extremely good at it through experience and luck.

My qualm that has been stated about it for quite some time has been that this issue is not the fault of documentation, classes, power of spells, or anything else.  It is the issue that people have sidled past documentation in order to treat magickers as something different than the way documentation says they should be.  My long-time point of view has been that mages, as far as 'pvp' goes...are of course powerful.  They have magick, for heaven's sake, that's a huge advantage.  The disadvantage is that rogue magickers are generally hunted down by those who -are- equipped to take down magickers, whether it be from powers given to them by someone more powerful, from a mob mentality and strength in numbers, or sheer experience and cleverness in setting traps and disabling those who could cause them serious harm.  When living within the city and not a rogue magicker, the disadvantage has always been that they were not going to play a socially powerful character.  They would be the scum of the sands, used as a tool, and given no leverage over the average commoner simply because they are 'useful'.  Those lines got blurred at some point, and it made them much easier to gain social power with, as well as economic and straight kickass power.

But again, that is not their fault.  It's not the immortals' fault.  It's not the code's fault.  It's the fault of players who decided that fuzzy group hugs with magickers was okay because this was only a game and they like that character, even if their own character should generally not even give them the chance to be liked.

Broad generalizations abound, vague answers, so on and so forth.  But that's my take.  And keep in mind that I haven't played the game in several months, and am not aware of the general 'mood' of things.  But the opening of the thread sounded remarkably similar.  So to reiterate...balance?  Keep that to the hack'n slash games, please.