The Sun King's Sanctuary/Other taverns vs. Society

[Desertman]

Desertman, you crack me up sometimes.

I'm here all week. 

[Malken]

I'd say that at least 70% of the PCs I've seen last night in the Sanctuary had more than one item with blood on it.

I was sorf of hoping that Desertman was playing a Chosen and would start trying to clean it all up!

That'd be quite the project.

[Desertman]

I'd say that at least 70% of the PCs I've seen last night in the Sanctuary had more than one item with blood on it.

I was sorf of hoping that Desertman was playing a Chosen and would start trying to clean it all up!

That'd be quite the project.

It will never be a good idea to let me play a northern Noble or Faithful. Suffice to say, it would get a little less rainbow-bright in Tuluk.

(That can go on my account notes, just incase a screw comes loose and I one day actually App one, you guys will know to immediately not consider me. For everyone's good, even my own.)

[Desertman]

Apparently that is not the case, and I spouted off my big mouth out if ignorance.

Someone should 'sig' this, if I werent me, and I saw someone else let this one slip, I would quote the piss out of it, to be an ass.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.

[Desertman]

We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.

Now my feelings are hurt. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.

Now my feelings are hurt. 

Yeh, right.

[Desertman]

We don't have to sig that, Desertman. It happens every day.

Now my feelings are hurt. 

Yeh, right.

Seriously, I am a human being. I have feelings. I really do. Sometimes at night, when noone else is around, I sit in my bedroom corner and cry, and rub dog shit in my hair.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Haha.

[Angela Christine]

I think of the Sanctuary as a place where all freeborn citizens and visitors to the city go to meet, hire workers or look for work, make contacts, and so on.

I was disappointed when Tuluk was being rebuilt that an exclusive meeting place for the silk set wasn't included.  Even with new furniture the Sanctuary isn't a good fit, because of it's location.  Something adjacent to the noble's quarter would have been better.  Unfortunately there were already several tavern in Tuluk, even after closing the one in the vineyard, and dividing the player base too much isn't a great idea.  (Of course a few new meeting places were added, so obviously I'm missing something).

I assume that when Noble's go to the Sanctuary, they are going there to "work".  It isn't like a country club, where the rich can relax away from the plebs.  It is a place where freeborn people go to make contacts.  When nobles want to sit somewhere that smells nice and relax, they go home.  Most of the great Houses have some nice rooms where they could comfortably meet with other classy people.  They have wine at home, they have food at home, they have servants/slaves at home.  They don't need to go to out to have a lovely meal and a drink, they can get all that at home without the long walk through the city.  They go to the Sanctuary to do business.


On the other hand, the furniture in the Sanctuary is pretty nice.  It was shabby chic during the occupation, and everyone came in grubby.  But things have been cleaned up since then.  The building is nice, the furniture is nice, the dishes are nice, it is a nice place.  It really is inappropriate to go in there with your stinky boots and gore splattered clothing.  Won't someone think of the upholstery!?!  I'm not worried about body odor, because different cultures have different tolerances for BO.  (I'm sure we've all encountered immigrants who look clean, yet have horrible BO; they aren't filthy people, the simply appear to come from a culture that doesn't value antiperspirant.)  I'm willing to believe that people in Zalanthas, even wealthy good-smelling people, are not easily offended by normal body odors.  But a tolerance for BO isn't the same as a tolerance for filth.  A commoner going into the Sanctuary should at the very least try to brush off anything crusted onto their clothes, and maybe use a damp cloth to scrub the worst off his face, neck, armpits, and groin.  Water is pretty cheap in Tuluk, if your PC couldn't afford to use half a cup of water to tidy up a bit, maybe your PC doesn't have a good reason to go into the Sanctuary.

[Twilight]

In Tuluk, things are subtle.  In Tuluk, things are also relative.  Your status as a commoner can be depend on you.  It can be dependent on your patron.  Which is not something someone would know by just looking at you and your clothes, for instance.

I think Desertman was thinking of it as a minimum level, for everyone.  If you can't meet this level because of your station, you shouldn't be there.

When it seems to be a minimum level, based on your station.  But any station is allowed.

[Lizzie]

I don't think it has anything to do with subtlety. It's pretty clear, concise, and unambiguous.  Simple math; consider it pseudo-code.

IF

your character wishes to follow the rules of "proper Tuluk etiquette" in the Sanctuary,

THEN

he will attempt to clean himself and his gear prior to or immediately upon entry. If it's just dust, then immediately upon. If it's more than just dust, then prior to.

ELSE IF

your character doesn't care about the perception of polite company in the Sanctuary

OR IF

your character is ignorant of polite Tuluk etiquette (being a tribal or Southerner visiting for the first time ever and having never heard anyone, from family to friends to overhearing a conversation among Bynners at the Gaj, mention anything about polite Tuluk etiquette in the entirety of your character's misbegotten life)

OR IF

your character wants to intentionally be annoying

THEN

your character will come however the fuck he likes, and will be subject to the appropriate criticism from whoever is in a position to criticize (if you are a fully maxed-out and licensed assassin and happen to also be Super Senior Chosen Lord Dippety Doodah, there aren't going to be too many people in a position to criticize you )

[Barzalene]

Forgive me for being too lazy to quote you all.
Above, Musashi says it would be great if the nobles just hung out with nobles and let the commoners handle the commoners.

And Desertman also implied that the nice people should be segregated. That commoners shouldn't be hanging with them.

And the thing is, that you can have it work exactly the way you envisage. If you play in Nak.

In Tuluk there are cultural reasons why the nobles hang out with the riff raff. They like to see themselves and rugged and busy people with purpose, (maybe not so much the rugged. Maybe I mean capable) unlike those southern dilettantes. They want to see themselves as magnanimous and endorsed by the masses. And depending upon your personality, perhaps even loved by the masses.

It's like people with dogs. They like that their dogs like them.

[Reiloth]

I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."

You may cry "Spreading the PBase too thin, c'mon". However, I think if the cities were much smaller in radius, with only passing blocks of two or three between major avenues, you as a PC would be able to hang out at one dive bar, wait for a friend to show up. If s/he didn't, you'd move on to the next one. Night-hawks, such as myself, do this IRL. I think there should be large taverns, like the Sanctuary, but they shouldn't be the end all, be all, of meeting people or meeting -with- people. If i'm in the Warrens, and i'm a poor fucker, I have to go to the Tooth. And support Kuraci's. Why does that make any sense? You don't think there would be speakeasies, where all you can buy is a shot of cheap whiskey and a beer? And the only occupants are a seventy-year old homeless guy and a cute bartender who gives blowjobs in the back on slow nights for an extra 'sid?

Just my thoughts.

[Angela Christine]

I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."

Hmm, there is already a limited number of seats in a tavern.  People can keep coming in, but they will have to stand or sit on the floor, which makes conversation difficult, or convince someone else to give up their seat.  In what way would limiting the number of PCs that can fit in a room be better than limiting the number of PC-accessible seats in the room?

[Haze]

I personally would love it if, especially in 2.0 as it isn't going to happen now, there were five or six bars. The city would be 1/4 of the size. There would be bars on street corners, dives. You could only fit four or five PC's in them. After that point, you'd get a message of "This bar is packed, and you don't think you can get in."

Make taverns that have multiple rooms, segregated by social standing.  All the players in the city, one tavern, no nobles sitting with beggars.

[Yam]

Not in Allanak, my friend.

Not in Allanak.


Protip: Most Tuluki nobles probably don't actually love commoners.

[tortall]

Actually, I witnessed a noble, quite subtly, have Clint kick a dirty and bloody elf out. There was imm involvement, and the noble didn't have to say a word. It was beautiful!

[Semper]

My views on tavern culture:

Taverns are businesses, just like any shop or stall. They profit from the drinks and foods they sell, more than the services and events. The logical progression of that would be to expect costumers to be buying drinks and their food when they stop in. Realistically speaking, there are servers and hospitable bartenders to encourage this, but IG these are the vNPC and NPC population.

Currently, whether motivated to some degree by OOC reasons (whether out of boredom or want to socialize on players part) or IG reasons (business, socialize, etc.) PCs stop by taverns of varying social standing (from the Sanctuary to the Gaj). From those two choices (IG or OOC) the motivation for PCs to visit taverns that don't seem to fit with their social standing or situation is most likely for the OOC considerations and enjoyment of the player, seen in the number of options in either city-state that often are lacking in PC traffic.

Here's my point. If PCs were included in the dealings of the normal populace, if they choose to stop by a tavern, whether for social, political, or business reasons, they should be pressured (subtly or not) to get something from the establishment. It's because this pressure is lacking that people can idle in taverns they shouldn't belong in, because under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be able to afford what the tavern provides. From the owner's standpoint, if there's no business from a patron, they're considered to be taking the space of potential customers, and so whether from a bouncer or other, they'd be pressured to leave.

So what does this account to? Whether RL or IG, people come to taverns to relax, socialize, and have fun (and some business if necessary). When you are coming to taverns, this equates to drinking or eating with your mates (whether or not there are events going on). What I'd like to see more of is people actually buying drinks when they are in taverns, instead of stopping in for five minutes to idle, and then standing up and leaving without having said a word and with a couple nods here and there. Because there's no pressure IG to buy drinks, this doesn't mean there should be no pressure at all. The longer you idle in the tavern, the more money you should be spending. This should give purpose and meaning to coming to taverns. Since you're PC is spending money to be there, (meaningless) idling no longer becomes an option, and aside from fixing the problem of people who don't belong coming, there'll be more activity going on.

A small rant now. Recently, I've been noticing plenty of PCs in taverns, but likely a quarter of the number actually participating. The rest are bumming on their butts listening in on the fun. I'm not saying you should be participating -all- the time, but at least buy a drink or two while sitting there. If not, ask for what reason your PC is in that particular tavern for. Is it actually realistic for your PC to be doing what s/he is doing? If you can't afford a drink there, ask a friend (or make a friend) for one, and you can be included in a group that you normally may not be apart of (because you usually can't afford the company). It makes socializing and buying drinks for people and the impact on your character's social standing that much more meaningful.

One of the things that happens if this culture of buying sets in is that seeing down-dressed PCs at a tavern they supposedly shouldn't be in has much more meaning, than for the OOC reasons most people assume. If they have a drink in hand, how did they get that drink? From whom did they get the drink? And a whole number of other questions can be asked depending on the situation. And if your character is one to care about social standing, they'll want to be in taverns that have higher social standing to show their wealth/power/influence or other, even if they may not be able to afford it. Strategic socializing and wits all start to play a role, and replaces the current culture of meaningless idling that I see.

Where to start? I think the biggest factor that would set this in motion are PC bartenders/servers/bouncers. Not only does it add jobs for unaffiliated PCs, it gives life and meaning to the tavern social scene. Those who can't afford a drink start getting kicked out, unless they can get someone to cover for them. Interaction at the bar becomes a subtle struggle for the upper hand in influence and popularity. Buying drinks for people actually have potentially more meaning behind it, and the taverns you visit become an indication of how well your PC is doing.

Thoughts?

[staggerlee]

re: Semper - regarding not buying things in taverns:

I'm going to quote myself here, because I answered that concern in a previous thread a few months ago and I very much feel that it still applies.

I always had the impression in Armageddon that taverns don't serve quite the same function as modern bars.  They're a common meeting area, a place for public congregation. Those without facilities at home go there to cook or sleep, travellers stop to rest, and everyone congregates at the end of the day when it's too dark to travel the deserts or they've been released from daily duties or training schedules.    Once there the tavern is a place for rest, socializing, meeting, entertainment or planning. 

The bar owner profits as a central meeting area, he may not make direct income from the cooking, sleeping and gathering but chances are enough people will buy food or drink that he stays ahead of the game. But also consider that the bars aren't necessarily privately run.  Consider who runs your favourite bar and what their motivation for doing so may be.  And when I say that, I mean find out ic.

On that note, I think there should be more gossiping in the bars.  That's how news travels in Zalanthas, and what the ic boards simulate.  I know you all want to play stoic surly bastards, but sitting down at a bar in Zalanthas and saying "what news?" would be fairly common place. It isn't like the real world where we're bombarded by media from all directions, bar gossip would play an important role in the spread of news and information (or misinformation), and any merchant, mercenary or traveller that avoided public areas could quickly find themself entirely out of the loop and at a disadvantage over the cut-throat competition.

I think every organization, and every independent for that matter, could benefit from tavern sitting.

[Semper]

I agree with your point for the most part. What my post is getting at is only adding to what you have quoted. IG taverns -don't- serve the same purpose as modern taverns do (at least from the initial comparison) but they are still profitable ventures. Any organization, whether a merchant House or crime group, owns the tavern expecting profit, and they get the most profit from their drinks and meals. If it's a central gathering place for certain groups and social castes, great for the tavern. They get more profit that way. But when people who can't afford to buy anything, or use any of their services are frequenting their establishment, they lose business by the fact the their normal (socially minded) patrons don't like to be seen with those of lower standing, and either leave to better taverns or don't visit as much.

If rinthers started frequenting the place you slept and rested and met friends with, would you be comfortable? That's pretty much what should be going through the minds of patrons when they notice people of lower standing hanging around.

Now this is from only one perspective. That from the middle commoner class. But it would apply to some degree (if not most) to any social class. If a well-dressed, influential individual walked into a shady, hole-in-the-wall seedy tavern, there should be bells and whistles sounding in the heads of everyone there.

[staggerlee]

I can think of scenarios where bar owners might not care about turning a profit.  It implies they have another motive for operating the place, and/or that money is not a concern.  I'm not commenting what so ever on the situation in game, though I do have some thoughts about particular establishments.

I wouldn't by any means suggest that would apply to every bar, but in some cases it might definitely explain a thing or two.   I definitely get what you're saying.

[Rindan]

I think that your average Tuluki can enter the Sanctuary without much fear so long as they take the basic steps of cleaning themselves up a little.  Due to the patronage system of Tuluk, you need some place where Tuluki nobles and commoners can hook up.  In fact, you need a place where people of all classes can hook up to conduct business.

The important point in this though is that there is a mile of difference between conducting business and hanging out.

I don't think it would be odd to see an average commoner in the Sanctuary, but that commoner would almost always have a goal and find the entire ordeal rather stressful.  In the world of "subtly" it means being on your feet all the time.  Being around your betters is a great place to screw up and really ruin your reputation.  It also means you probably go out of your way to make a good impression.  You don't wear your bloody rags in.  Further, once business is done, you scram.  Nothing good is going to come from hanging around in a place where you can't afford a drink surrounded by people that can crush you.

So, dropping in to see a your patron or speak with a merchant?  Good idea.  Got invited by a merchant or noble?  Great.  Idling there with your hunter for a few days?  Probably a bad idea.  There is nothing wrong with dropping in to conduct business or accepting an invitation from someone who belongs, but you better at least be a moderately well to do commoner before you make it a hang out.  If you just got done hunting and are covered in blood, eh, fuck'em, go lay out in one of Tuluk's other taverns and punch the first guy in the face who complains about your stench.

[mansa]

I think that your average Tuluki can enter the Sanctuary without much fear so long as they take the basic steps of cleaning themselves up a little.  Due to the patronage system of Tuluk, you need some place where Tuluki nobles and commoners can hook up.  In fact, you need a place where people of all classes can hook up to conduct business.

The important point in this though is that there is a mile of difference between conducting business and hanging out.

I don't think it would be odd to see an average commoner in the Sanctuary, but that commoner would almost always have a goal and find the entire ordeal rather stressful.  In the world of "subtly" it means being on your feet all the time.  Being around your betters is a great place to screw up and really ruin your reputation.  It also means you probably go out of your way to make a good impression.  You don't wear your bloody rags in.  Further, once business is done, you scram.  Nothing good is going to come from hanging around in a place where you can't afford a drink surrounded by people that can crush you.

So, dropping in to see a your patron or speak with a merchant?  Good idea.  Got invited by a merchant or noble?  Great.  Idling there with your hunter for a few days?  Probably a bad idea.  There is nothing wrong with dropping in to conduct business or accepting an invitation from someone who belongs, but you better at least be a moderately well to do commoner before you make it a hang out.  If you just got done hunting and are covered in blood, eh, fuck'em, go lay out in one of Tuluk's other taverns and punch the first guy in the face who complains about your stench.

[Moderated by Nyr.]

And then, when you are in their estate, they take off their teddy bear mask to reveal death.

[Nyr]

I recently moderated a few posts in this thread. 
Some staff members (including me) are beginning to lose their tolerance for snarky/passive-aggressive/trollish posting behavior. 
Consider this an official warning, and here's a helpful reminder of the forum rules:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28823.0.html

If you are going to discuss the topic (which was created because the original was getting derailed), then discuss it.
Don't flame the opinions of other people and troll them.