The Sun King's Sanctuary/Other taverns vs. Society

[Desertman]

Political Veneer, is a scapegoat in lieu of realistic playing.

My Nobles will always act as though they are happy to mix with the commoners, no matter how much they smell, or how disgusting they look, or how crass they speak, because I have political veneer.

*Gag*

"Realistic playing" is playing to the docs. The docs are quite clear about Tuluki culture and its underpinnings. Not every place in the Known World is the Gaj, Desertman. I understand that the Gaj is your very favorite playing environment, but cultures and places are different because variety is necessary and good.

My very favorite place is Firestorms actually, as far as taverns go. But that doesnt matter.

I guess I will just have to remember that in Tuluk, Nobles, Templars, and Rich Silk-Clad merchants dont mind mixing with stinky commoners.

I cant wait to go into the Sanctuary with my next Byn Runner, who cant afford anything in that whole tavern, and mix with the silk-clad loveable upper-crest. Its going to be so much fun.

[Desertman]

But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.

Dont worry about it, leave it on there.

In Tuluk we have political veneer. Its all in the docs.

[Gimfalisette]

But ... I think we are all in agreement that even in Tuluk, where we have a kinder, gentler nobility and Templarate ... you should still clean the blood, sweat, and shit off yourself before you go meet someone important.

Yes, because those are gestures of respect to a higher caste/status.

However, what Desertman really wants is for everyone not wearing silk to be in some tavern other than the Sanc. And that's just not how Tuluk works. The Sanc is not Trader's. Even hanging at Trader's doesn't require a PC to be garbed head-to-toe in silk.

In Tuluk we have political veneer. Its all in the docs.

A review might help you. Just sayin'. Rail against it all you want, but it's there. Heck...there's political veneer in Allanak too, but I wouldn't want to crush your world by pointing it out.

[Malken]

Next we'll say that nobles shouldn't be sitting at the bar, chit chattin' it up with commoners.

Then we'll have nobles sitting by themselves at the couch and tables for hours, getting bored.

Then we'll have nobles storing and Tuluk empty once again.



You'll never see me complain that the Sanctuary is crowded with PCs again. NEVER.

[musashi]

Yeah, like I said above, about realism vs. what's fun to do.

I feel like we gotta keep a healthy middle ground, because I get all the reality I need when I'm off-line.

[Kiri]

..... Rich Silk-Clad merchants dont mind mixing with stinky commoners.

Rich silk-clad merchants are rich because they sell shit to stinky commoners.

Being an ass  (or acting like you're better than everyone when you're technically the same, just better dressed)  is a quick way to kill your client base.


Bleeding on the couch, copping a feel, coming in blood-covered.. all bad form. Just walking in covered in armor? Well, hell, the Legions do that all the time.


I think the biggest point that several people are trying to make here is that there isn't quite the huge divide between rich/chosen and poor commons in Tuluk that there is in 'Nak.  (where even rich, silk-clad GMH employees get sneered at for sitting at the bar in Trader's.)

I have seen the barman animated to throw undesirables out. I have seen PCs shun people caught pickpocketing IN the Sanc, make disparaging remarks about poor behavior, and in general react to things that shouldn't happen there. What they DON'T do is make a screaming scene where they stamp their foot and insist a Templar kill joebob for spoiling the ambiance. Uppercrusty Faithful would die of shame before acting so southern.

[staggerlee]

Bleeding on the couch, copping a feel, coming in blood-covered.. all bad form. Just walking in covered in armor? Well, hell, the Legions do that all the time.

Yeah I'd be much more concerned about wearing armor if there was affordable pc housing.  Currently I don't think most characters can afford an apartment to change and keep their armor in.

In a perfect world people could change their clothes and wouldn't wear backpacks everywhere, but currently that's hard to avoid, especially for less well established characters.

[Nyr]

The Sanctuary is a nice place.  Its entire description is that of a nice place.  Every object in the room looks nice. 
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean."  This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste.  Your character might get ridiculed.  Your character might offend someone by doing this.  If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation?  Not necessarily.  Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style.  It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.

Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary.  It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them.  If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.  If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.

[Desertman]

The Sanctuary is a nice place.  Its entire description is that of a nice place.  Every object in the room looks nice. 
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean."  This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste.  Your character might get ridiculed.  Your character might offend someone by doing this.  If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation?  Not necessarily.  Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style.  It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.

Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary.  It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them.  If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.  If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.

THANK YOU Nyr,

I knew it was strange to see rag-tag tattered sweaty-armored commoners lounging about. Somehow, down in my soul, that apparently has no concept of Tuluki rp, I knew that it just didnt make any fucking sense.

*Rears his wicked I told you so head.*

[staggerlee]

The Sanctuary is a nice place.  Its entire description is that of a nice place.  Every object in the room looks nice. 
If your PC is going to the Sanctuary, you should expect that the norm for the Sanctuary is "clean."  This means that having dust, sweat, and dried blood coating your character's body might be viewed in bad taste.  Your character might get ridiculed.  Your character might offend someone by doing this.  If your character gets overlooked about this, does it mean that other people aren't playing according to the documentation?  Not necessarily.  Maybe they didn't notice your character--perhaps they are busy in a conversation with another character and are too busy to snub your character, or too focused on something else to devote time to insulting your character Tuluki-style.  It's also possible that they expect (as players) that your character should know better than to waltz into an obviously nicer establishment covered in sweat, dried blood, and dust, and expect someone else to bring it up in-character, or expect the bartender to do something about it.

Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary.  It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them.  If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.  If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.

THANK YOU Nyr,

I knew it was strange to see rag-tag tattered sweaty-armored commoners lounging about. Somehow, down in my soul, that apparently has no concept of Tuluki rp, I knew that it just didnt make any fucking sense.

*Rears his wicked I told you so head.*

You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?

[Desertman]

You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?

You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?

My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.

When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

I have never expressed a problem with commoners in the Sanctuary, I have expressed a problem with your average blue-collar sweat-stained, only owns one pair of clothing, or one suit of worn armor, commoner in the Sanctuary.

[staggerlee]

You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?

You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?

My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.

When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

In many cases "looking your best" means brushing the dust off your clothes and not spitting on the floor.  It means doing your best to conform to social norms and demonstrate that you put that effort in, it does not mean that only the wealthy can go there.

[Desertman]

You do realize that what he just said in no way contradicts the argument that Gimf has been spearheading, right?

You do realize that my "I told you so" isnt directed at Gimf in the least right?

My "I told you so" is directed at everyone who said that the Sanctuary is a perfectly reasonable place for average commoners to hang out.

When in fact, it isnt. It is a place where commoners are allowed, but it is a place where commoners are expected to have the means to dress accordingly, not in their smelly work-clothing. It is expected that they will dress their best, look their best, and clean up before strolling into the Sanctuary. Average commoners dont belong in the Sanctuary, only commoners who have the means to dress the part. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

In many cases "looking your best" means brushing the dust off your clothes and not spitting on the floor.  It means doing your best to conform to social norms and demonstrate that you put that effort in, it does not mean that only the wealthy can go there.

For some people, their best simply isnt enough.

For some people their best is stained, sweat-stench armor. Or tattered worn and stained clothing that would actually make the barstool dirty.

For some people their best is whatever hand-me-down clothing they got from their older brother who has already wore the shit out of it.

If your "best" is "average commoner"...then your best isnt good enough for the Sanctuary.

If you dress like an average common/average hunter/average working class grunt, your ass doesnt belong in the Sanctuary.

As Nyr states, people go to the Sanctuary to try and impress the nobility. Unless your character is a fucking idiot, he should know that "Dusting off" his shit clothing, doesnt exactly make it impressive to the eyes of nobility.

Unless you character is a fucking idiot, he isnt going to try to impress the nobility, which Nyr has stated is the main reason for commoners to frequent the Sanctuary, wearing items that probably cost less than the noble's most recent meal.

I dont see how that is a hard concept to grasp. Its a fancy fucking establishment with fancy fucking people. If you cant afford to dress the part, keep your ass out, otherwise you should realize you are embarressing yourself.

[staggerlee]

Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary.  It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them.  If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.  If your character doesn't know those customs and societal mores, then they'll reap the consequences in whatever form they come in.

This is the key, as I see it.
It isn't about your level of material wealth, it's about your attention to social code and your intentions.  Commoners want to be in a position where they can receive patronage, jobs and move in certain social circles, impressing a Chosen or Faithful is always going to be appealing.  How far they can do that, depends on the commoner.

Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best.  That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.

Sure you can make up extreme examples of people unfit to be in any bar, but we're talking about working commoners here.  Your average working commoner can go to the Sanctuary, as long as they show attention to social expectations.

[Desertman]

I repeat...

If you dress like an average common/average hunter/average working class grunt, your ass doesnt belong in the Sanctuary.

As Nyr states, people go to the Sanctuary to try and impress the nobility. Unless your character is a fucking idiot, he should know that "Dusting off" his shit clothing, doesnt exactly make it impressive to the eyes of nobility.

Unless you character is a fucking idiot, he isnt going to try to impress the nobility, which Nyr has stated is the main reason for commoners to frequent the Sanctuary, wearing items that probably cost less than the noble's most recent meal.

I dont see how that is a hard concept to grasp. Its a fancy fucking establishment with fancy fucking people. If you cant afford to dress the part, keep your ass out, otherwise you should realize you are embarressing yourself.

The Sanctuary and Tuluk in general arent Little League Baseball, you dont get a pat on your back for "Doing your best."

If a commoner's best is still "average commoner". Thats not good enough to land them a respectable seat in the Sanctuary. If a commoner's best is "luxurious and actually impressive commoner". They should be proud to flaunt that infront of the nobility.

[staggerlee]

You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right,  you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.

[Desertman]

You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right,  you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.

Part of the reason commoners frequent the Sanctuary is due to the fact that His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the Sanctuary.  It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them.  If your character knows Tuluki customs and societal mores, then they should WANT to be presentable for such an occasion.

So, you are trying to say that..." It's another chance to impress a Chosen or Faithful.  It's another chance to gain favor and interact with them."...this sentence, isnt trying to increase your social standing?

Thats exactly what it is. Nyr's post completely contradicts what you just said about Tuluk.

[staggerlee]

You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right,  you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.

Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best.  That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.

I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts.  Are you trying to say that in Tuluk the only way to impress the upper classes is by displaying wealth?

[Desertman]

You're still overlooking key differences between Allanak and Tuluk.
In Allanak you'd be right,  you can gain some amount of social standing by flaunting wealth.

Due to Tuluk's attitudes about social standing, it's more important that a person be doing their best.  That's what's different from Allanak. By putting in that effort you're showing respect, and opening yourself up to opportunities. You show your classiness by trying.

I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts.  Are you trying to say that in Tuluk the only way to impress the upper classes is by displaying wealth?

I'm not convinced you are reading your posts.

Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?

The last time I checked, dressing like an average commoner/hunter/mercenary/grunt wasnt horribly impressive as far as social standing goes.

[staggerlee]

Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?

Yes.  They're not going to to be impressed by a rude bastard in silks. They will however be impressed by a socially aware, polite working man in linens.

[Desertman]

Are you trying to say that displaying a lack of wealth would somehow not be a detriment to your ability to impress the upper classes?

Yes.  They're not going to to be impressed by a rude bastard in silks. They will however be impressed by a socially aware, polite working man in linens.

Nice crisp clean linens I am completely fine with.

Armor, hunting gear, grebbing gear, that actually smells like it has been used, because it has been used, I have an issue with.

[musashi]

I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.

I'm in complete agreement that people who are in there wearing stained anything (be it armor, hunting gear, or rag-tag clothing) should take a moment to reconsider unless they want to RP the whole affair of being scoffed at and insulted on purpose.

And also in agreement on the fact that people who go out of their way to dress in clothing they purchased from Under Tuluk or looted off a halfling should likewise, be expecting some snide remarks no matter how clean they make their shoddy clothing.

But from a playability point of view ... that new player to Arm who starts in the Sanctuary, starts there for a reason I think. I think that reason is because he has the best chance to meet some more established PC's there, get involved in things, and get sucked up into the game.

Thus, I feel like the "You can't go to the tavern where the job-giving PC's are because you can't afford to buy a full wardrobe of presentable clothing along with the basic eq you need for your guild with just your starting money!" line of thought does not seem like a good way to attract/keep new players or enhance the overall enjoyment of the game.

So I guess what I'm saying is the way I think most folks (maybe staff as well?) view it is: If the clothing you're wearing is dirty, or says in its description that it's a very shitty filthy piece of clothing by nature even if you try to clean it ... maybe the Sanctuary isn't for you. But if you're dressed in simple, modest commoner clothing that you cleaned up a bit, feel free to wander in and try to get involved in some of the cool stories going on in the city.

SMALL EDIT SINCE 5 REPLIES GOT TYPED WHILE I WAS TYPING: So ... I think we're all actually agreeing, and just getting tripped up over wordplay.

[Desertman]

I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.

Templar and Noble PC's who havent been set up yet start in the exact same rooms, then have to Wish Up to get transported by staff so they can then be given proper gear.

Your arguement holds no water, but was good for a laugh. Its a simple coded affect that has no bearing on any RP from that moment forward, what so ever.

I'm in complete agreement that people who are in there wearing stained anything (be it armor, hunting gear, or rag-tag clothing) should take a moment to reconsider unless they want to RP the whole affair of being scoffed at and insulted on purpose.

And also in agreement on the fact that people who go out of their way to dress in clothing they purchased from Under Tuluk or looted off a halfling should likewise, be expecting some snide remarks no matter how clean they make their shoddy clothing.

Completely agree with you.

But from a playability point of view ... that new player to Arm who starts in the Sanctuary, starts there for a reason I think. I think that reason is because he has the best chance to meet some more established PC's there, get involved in things, and get sucked up into the game.

They start there because its probably easier to code everyone starting in one place. Please see my above comment in reference to this arguement.

Thus, I feel like the "You can't go to the tavern where the job-giving PC's are because you can't afford to buy a full wardrobe of presentable clothing along with the basic eq you need for your guild with just your starting money!" line of thought does not seem like a good way to attract/keep new players or enhance the overall enjoyment of the game.

So I guess what I'm saying is the way I think most folks (maybe staff as well?) view it is: If the clothing you're wearing is dirty, or says in its description that it's a very shitty filthy piece of clothing by nature even if you try to clean it ... maybe the Sanctuary isn't for you. But if you're dressed in simple, modest commoner clothing that you cleaned up a bit, feel free to wander in and try to get involved in some of the cool stories going on in the city.

If you are wearing average commoner clothing, that is clean, as in, not used and doesnt smell like ass, then sure, go have a seat at the Sanctuary. I suspect you are still going to get the stinkeye from people who can actually afford to buy things there, which you cant, but maybe they will take pity on you and give you a job, since you are trying, and then you can get the fuck out.

[Nyr]

I love being quoted out of context to suit an argument just as much as the next staffer, but the intent of my post wasn't to decide who can and can't enter the Sanctuary.  I wrote that post to point out how the Sanctuary ties into Tuluki roleplay and the society there.  (One might recall that the original post some five pages ago was about Tuluk and roleplay, not a flamefest over the Sun King's Sanctuary.)  In fact, I never said what someone had to wear or what they shouldn't wear.  I said that people shouldn't be covered in dried blood, dust, and sweat if they are following the social expectations of Tuluk.  Each of these three things can be removed with a bit of work or at least made less noticeable. 

I didn't say that you should't go into the Sanctuary decked out in armor.  I didn't say that you should go to the Sanctuary decked out in armor, either.  I didn't say that you shouldn't go to the Sanctuary wearing tattered clothing.  I didn't say that you should, either.  The social expectations of Tuluk are not that everyone be able to afford and wear silk in order to enter the Sanctuary.  The social expectation is that you be presentable, because the whole room is a nice place--and it's a nice place because His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the place.  If a character isn't aware of or ignores the social expectation, then they'll reap the IC consequences (if there are any).

The whole point was to give a baseline idea for what is expected.  You may notice that there were a lot of "mights," "maybe's," and "possibly's" in those two paragraphs.  This is not a rigid set of documentation to follow--it is meant to shed more light on Tuluk in general, which can be difficult to understand at times, and further confused by different perceptions. 

[musashi]

I think it's kinda funny then that ... every single "I pointed to Tuluk in the map room!" newbie PC has to violate the social standards of Tuluk, because they have to walk down the steps from the sleeping commons and through the common room in their crappy newbie vest and canvas pants.

Templar and Noble PC's who havent been set up yet start in the exact same rooms, then have to Wish Up to get transported by staff so they can then be given proper gear.

Your arguement holds no water, but was good for a laugh. Its a simple coded affect that has no bearing on any RP from that moment forward, what so ever.

That wasn't actually an arguement ... more just a laugh. Like I said, I think everyone is agreeing basically.