The Sun King's Sanctuary/Other taverns vs. Society

[Malken]

What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.

You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.

[musashi]

What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.

You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.

I would say tribals who are dressed in sandcloth that they maybe dusted off before they walked in should be a-ok!
I would also say tribals dressed in a urine soaked loincloth and blood face paint might find it a little difficult to blend in.

I just mean to say, I've never noticed the clothing that bendune speaking folks wear to seem primative at all ... isn't it nice enough that they can trade it inside the cities?

[Desertman]

I didn't say that you should't go into the Sanctuary decked out in armor.  I didn't say that you should go to the Sanctuary decked out in armor, either.  I didn't say that you shouldn't go to the Sanctuary wearing tattered clothing.  I didn't say that you should, either.  The social expectations of Tuluk are not that everyone be able to afford and wear silk in order to enter the Sanctuary.  The social expectation is that you be presentable, because the whole room is a nice place--and it's a nice place because His Chosen and His Faithful frequent the place.  If a character isn't aware of or ignores the social expectation, then they'll reap the IC consequences (if there are any).

You would make a good politician.

So from all of that, we get one definite sentence...

You should not go into the sanctuary with blood, dust, or sweat tags on your items.

We could have just cut straight to that.

Can I get a better explanation of what would be considered "presentable"?

I am extremely confused. In my mind, if the clothing you are wearing costs less than the table clothe at the establishment you are currently at, you arent dressed in a "presentable" manner for that establishment.

Please confirm.

Also, what would the mind-set be for the Sanctuary in regards to the lowly races?

Half-elves predominantly, as well as Elves?

[Desertman]

What about tribals, Desertman? Do you expect them to be in nice clothes as well? There's a certain fascination and friendship between the tribals and Chosens and Faithfuls that I've always noticed when playing in Tuluk.

You'd assume that the tribals are not smelling very nice, yet they always seem to have a special place in the heart of the nobles there.

If a tribal doesnt know any better than to sit in the Sanctuary while dressed in his desert gear, I think the nobles would use some of that political veneer we were talking about and overlook that fact.

Sort of the same way you overlook the fact a retard doesnt know how to tie his shoes. They simply dont know how shit works.

I think the nobles would be a little appalled by the fact they have to smell that thing, but in the end, actually harassing them about it, since they arent Tuluki citizens and dont know any better, would be like beating a harmless animal.

[Malken]

If a tribal doesnt know any better than to sit in the Sanctuary while dressed in his desert gear, I think the nobles would use some of that political veneer we were talking about and overlook that fact.

So I guess that no one really knows how to role play in the Sanctuary because I find that most nobles are always more than happy to learn everything about your tribe when they notice your accent, and
that they also are more than happy to try and recruit you or find you a job when they notice that you seem like a decent hunter who isn't clanned yet, bloodied armor on or not.

[Desertman]

So I guess that no one really knows how to role play in the Sanctuary because I find that most nobles are always more than happy to learn everything about your tribe when they notice your accent, and
that they also are more than happy to try and recruit you or find you a job when they notice that you seem like a decent hunter who isn't clanned yet, bloodied armor on or not.

I personally think tribals who know anything about Tuluki culture should stay the fuck out of the Sanctuary. So yeah, I guess based on that premise your statement is pretty dead on in regards to how I feel about the current state of Sanctuary RP.

I did have one noble recently who sneered at my pc while in the Tooth. I wish that noble would spend some more time in the Sanctuary sneering at lower-class individuals, that guy could really clean that place up.

(Consider this my kudoes to you, noble dude)

[Barzalene]

I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.

[Desertman]

I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.

Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.

I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.

[Gimfalisette]

Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.

I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.

Pretty sure it's only you that's unclear at this point.

[Rairen]

D'man, you're the only... person... confused... here from what I can tell.  It's okay.  Breathe.

Tuluki's, from what I can tell, like their blokes and lasses in armor.  It means (or at least implies) that they know what they're doing.  How better to impress a Chosen of Tuluk than to be useful?  Further, I've never seen anyone kick out a grubby beggar.  Why?  One, they may have been very subtly done chased away.  Two, they're still commoners.  Commoners are a privleged sort around the Gol.

Of course, if you're personally offended by the look of someone in His Sanctuary, you're more than welcome to censure and deride them if it would be appropriate for your character.  Outside of that, it's a good reminder to spiff up a bit when interacting with others, whatever that means, precisely, for your character.  (I think a large part of this is a difference in what it means to be 'cleaned up'.  It seems that a lot of the dissenting opinions are of the mind that cleaned up in Zalanthas doesn't quite mean what it would IRL.)

Edit:  I'd recommend spliting this off into one generally on the topic of cleanliness and culture if it's going to carry on.  This is distracting from the very interesting and valid conversations that have lead up to this point.

[musashi]

I think bottom line is that you don't need fancy clothes, you need a bar of soap or an armor brush.

Then I would say I do in fact agree with this opinion!

In an ideal, able to be 100% realistic without affecting gameplay enjoyment world ... it would be swell if nobles could just basically hang out with nobles, templar, and very very very rich commoners all day long, and use aides and less important folk to handle all the job contracting of hunters, guards, and lowly slightly gritty folk. It really would be cool!

But since we don't exactly have the massive playerbase required to support that, I'm ok with someone wearing hunting gear or armor thinking that it's presentable enough to go and have a drink in the sanctuary and maybe speak with a social better.

... ... So long as the armor isn't covered in shit.

I must say I do see a great many folk in there with blood stained what have you ... even mentioned that it was a little uncooth to one, but I believe her reply was something like: Oh ... no it's ok. Everyone knows I'm a hunter so it's alright to leave the blood caking on my gloves.

... My character (being a hunter as well) thought she was a little ... ugh ... I imagine perhaps a great many other characters would as well ... but hopefully the player behind the character realized the social impact, and was just doing it on purpose to portray how their PC didn't really care about fitting in or being presentable.

Man in retrospect I wish I had been clever enough to come up with something like: Oh yes ... I hear halfling is the fashion of the season ... no doubt you'll be the envy of every aide.

But I wasn't.   Darn.

Anyway ... just saying, I also don't really approve of being in the Sanctuary (or any obviously posh place) covered in blood and poop, but maybe the best thing to do is to react to it IG and hope my example catches on.

[Desertman]

Actually we havent reached any bottom line. As Nyr has stated he didnt condone nor did he champion the wearing of or not wearing of fancy clothes while in the Sanctuary.

I have asked him directly what he considers presentable, since we couldnt get a definite answer. Until we do get a definite answer, we really cant say what is and isnt acceptable in the Sanctuary, because none of us know. We are all just spouting our opinions, which hold no weight, because none of us are immortals and as such, we dont have the authority.

Pretty sure it's only you that's unclear at this point.

You just dont realize you are unclear, which is arguabley worse.

[Desertman]

D'man, you're the only... person... confused... here from what I can tell.  It's okay.  Breathe.

Thinking you are right, and being right, arent the same thing.

Tuluki's, from what I can tell, like their blokes and lasses in armor.  It means (or at least implies) that they know what they're doing.  How better to impress a Chosen of Tuluk than to be useful?  Further, I've never seen anyone kick out a grubby beggar.  Why?  One, they may have been very subtly done chased away.  Two, they're still commoners.  Commoners are a privleged sort around the Gol.

Actually Nyr hasnt said one war or the other if armor is acceptable in the Sanctuary. The same for beggar class individuals. So you arent wrong or right, you simply have an opinion, that hasnt been proven wrong or right.

Of course, if you're personally offended by the look of someone in His Sanctuary, you're more than welcome to censure and deride them if it would be appropriate for your character.  Outside of that, it's a good reminder to spiff up a bit when interacting with others, whatever that means, precisely, for your character.  (I think a large part of this is a difference in what it means to be 'cleaned up'.  It seems that a lot of the dissenting opinions are of the mind that cleaned up in Zalanthas doesn't quite mean what it would IRL.)

Again, until we get an answer from Nyr, neither of us have any ground to stand on. I cant even say that you are wrong, because I have no ground to stand on, until we get an answer.

[a strange shadow]

I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?

[Desertman]

I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?

I dont think there is a need now. We are at a standstill until we get a definite answer from staff on what we all believe is proper for the Sanctuary, so there is really no reason to continue discussing it until that point.

[Senga]

Nicely attired and presentable in Tuluk does not equal silk.  It can be armor, it can be linen, or cotton, or yes, even sandcloth, and it can be tribal dress.  Wear what is appropriate for your station, tribe, and job.

If you are kicking back after a day of battling gortoks, halflings and carru you'll want to clean up before entering the Sanctuary.  If you just killed your  neighbor, you may want to clean up before you head to the Sanctuary - especially if you didn't have a license.  If you smell like you have done any of the above, you may want to clean up. 

There is no "No shirt, no shoes, no service" rule in the Sanctuary.  It's a common sense thing - it is a nice place.  If you are Tuluki, you know appearances are important.  If you aren't, you will be treated accordingly.  This doesn't mean that every Tuluki has to or would openly fuss over every person who comes into the Sanctuary dressed inappropriately.  It also does not require the response to your inappropriate attire to be obvious to you.

[Nyr]

I made a new topic and shoved all of the debate and what-not about taverns in here.

[Nyr]

I pretty much referred to the (Internet) textbook definition...something that is worthy of presentation, suitable or socially acceptable with a good and clean appearance. 

presentable
–adjective
1.   that may be presented.
2.   suitable or socially acceptable in appearance, dress, manners, etc., as for being introduced into society: a presentable young man.
3.   of sufficiently good, clothed, or clean appearance; fit to be seen: Are you presentable now?

It does also say "clothed" and refers to "dress" as well, but I think it does a pretty good job of summing up what I mean by presentable.
No, it's not precisely an example of presentable dress for each facet of Tuluki society when entering the Sanctuary.  The stuff I wrote was a general observation--general guidelines.  General guidelines don't cover every eventuality and won't cover every character's definition of "presentable," since "presentable" is often in the eye of the beholder (and often the perception of the presenter).

[Medena]

I can't believe this has gone on for three pages. Can we split this head-to-wall-banging derail off into another thread?

I dont think there is a need now. We are at a standstill until we get a definite answer from staff on what we all believe is proper for the Sanctuary, so there is really no reason to continue discussing it until that point.

Your confusion lies in believing, or at least professing to believe, that this matter can be reduced to a hard and fast rule about what is proper and what is not.  Social standards and expectations are usually fairly fluid things and change with the trends of the day. Personally, I'd absolutely hate to play in a world where the staff explicitly laid out every single thing you can or cannot do, because it would leave absolutely no room for the little changes in day to day life that the players of the day bring about through their roleplay.

[Desertman]

Nicely attired and presentable in Tuluk does not equal silk.  It can be armor, it can be linen, or cotton, or yes, even sandcloth, and it can be tribal dress.  Wear what is appropriate for your station, tribe, and job.

If you are kicking back after a day of battling gortoks, halflings and carru you'll want to clean up before entering the Sanctuary.  If you just killed your  neighbor, you may want to clean up before you head to the Sanctuary - especially if you didn't have a license.  If you smell like you have done any of the above, you may want to clean up. 

There is no "No shirt, no shoes, no service" rule in the Sanctuary.  It's a common sense thing - it is a nice place.  If you are Tuluki, you know appearances are important.  If you aren't, you will be treated accordingly.  This doesn't mean that every Tuluki has to or would openly fuss over every person who comes into the Sanctuary dressed inappropriately.  It also does not require the response to your inappropriate attire to be obvious to you.

Thank you Senga, your direct response is very much appreciated and very useful.

I would like to appologize to everyone, I was wrong.

All of these years I thought that if you were playing in the Sanctuary, you probably needed to dress in attire that cost more than the food and drink you would be having.

Apparently that is not the case, and I spouted off my big mouth out if ignorance.

It would seem that you only need to have your gear clear of blood, dust, and sweat tags, and you are good to go.

Again, I offer my most humble appology and I hope to see the rest of you halfbreeds, tribals, mercenaries, and hunters, at the Sanctuary tonight. We can have a drink with the Nobles and Faithfuls.

[Yam]

Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.

[Desertman]

Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.

Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.

But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented in a manner that is actually understandable and useful.

(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)

[Yam]

Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.

Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.

But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented.

(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)

You can change it ICly. Srsly.

[Desertman]

Despite your sarcasm, that's pretty much the point, Desertman.

Oh I dont agree with it, and I personally think its a crock.

But, the Immortals have spoken, and I will adhere to what they have said, because their word is law. I may not like it, but those are the guidelines regarding the Sanctuary and I will RP accordingly now that guidelines have been presented.

(No sarcasm intended, I whole heartedly mean that.)

You can change it ICly. Srsly.

I could, but then I would be going against game policy, which is considered bad RP.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Desertman, you crack me up sometimes.