Anonymous Clan Boards

[LoD]

I'd like to see an in-game OOC boards for coordinating play times, so that GDB names remain unknown even intra-clan.

I was responding to the above quote, but felt that this was a completely different topic and wanted to bring this up for public consumption.

Currently, members of organized clans (i.e. Merchant Houses, Tribes, Noble Houses, etc...) are able to subscribe to a clan forum for OOC communication relating to lockers, availability, RPT event coordination, and other such conveniences that are better handled outside of the game to avoid disruption in-game.

However, the one thing that I've never really agreed with or understood is keeping the player's handles active within these clan forums.  People make a big deal about not discussing IC information with the rest of the playerbase on the GDB, one of the main reasons being that it demonstrates to others which character you might be playing.  This can sometimes cause issues related to accurate play, similar to the recent thread about having the person's GDB handle appearing next to their character name.

If our community is not kosher with players revealing who they play on the public forums, I see no advantages and several disadvantages to making an exception for the clan forums. 

• What if a clan member assassinates you -- you now know the player behind it.
• What if you like or dislike the player of a character -- you might allow that to influence the choices you make about promoting someone, killing someone, punishing someone, etc...
• What if you have a romantic clan involvement ICly -- you might recognize the player is same sex and could develop an issue.
• What if you don't care to chat about IC events -- now everyone in the clan now knows your player handle and perhaps your messenger/email contacts.
• What if you simply want to retain the sense of mystery between the players and characters, but don't want to be left out of the loop in terms of OOC coordination of clan events?

Over the many years, I've found that the game is immensely more enjoyable when you don't know who is playing the characters around you.  I would much prefer to see all of the OOC communication forums for each individual clan on the GDB switch to an Anonymous or a randomized made-up handle (i.e. Sharp Sword).

Thoughts?

-LoD

[FuSoYa]

If it this this automatically and I didn't have to make a new account and switch between them I could see myself getting behind it.  Though I've made some really good OOC friends to chat with (and -gasp- without sharing IC information) through playing in clans without switching contact info IG.

Brandon

[LoD]

If it this this automatically and I didn't have to make a new account and switch between them I could see myself getting behind it.  Though I've made some really good OOC friends to chat with (and -gasp- without sharing IC information) through playing in clans without switching contact info IG.

Brandon

If it were possible, I'd want it to be completely automated so that it simply masks your regular GDB handle with Anonymous when posting in the Clan Forum rather than having to switch between two completely separate accounts.  I think if this required people to switch accounts, it'd be a no-go.

-LoD

[flurry]

I completely agree that it's needed.

But if it changed people to 'Anonymous' on clan boards, wouldn't that make the flow of the threads confusing?  I'd rather see it be some alternative nickname (randomized or player selected) or, if the GDB accounts were linked to game accounts, something like Amos' Player.

[jcljules]

Yeah, there would have to be some way to have a 'nickname' perhaps the name of your character...

Otherwise you could even have people impersonating other people, since everyone was named Anonymous

[a strange shadow]

Problem with linking it to player accounts is that the name of the PC is not always the name they use.

Otherwise I think this is a fantastic idea. Using a nickname set when you join the clan board would be great.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Just make it anonymous.

Then you can open your post with:

Meat Shield Leroy Jenkins here...just had a question on the vase in the hallway...how many times do you think you can pee in it before it fills up?

[FuSoYa]

No, I prefer having it so it's somehow connected with your account and knows your character's name.  On the flip side I realize this would be INSANELY tough to do if even possible.

Brandon

[Marauder Moe]

Not that I mind my clan mates knowing who I play, and not that I don't get excited when a familiar player's character joins, but yes, this is probably a good idea.

[jcljules]

Yeah, I do PHP programming and I think its nearly.... well for me at least, impossible to connect these generic bulletin boards to other sorts of databases. I mean, its do-able, but its extremely hard.

I would rather see in-game OOC boards.

[Gimfalisette]

I think it's probably desirable to provide anonymity on the clan forums as well as the public forums. Yes, it's currently possible to set up a secondary username for oneself, but it's somewhat prohibitive to do so--you can't link your primary email to that secondary account, you have to remember which account you're currently using so you don't mess up your postings, etc.

In-game OOC boards aren't necessarily the right solution, because they are not discussion mediums. In some clans, it's important to be able to have detailed discussions about issues as they arise--sometimes pages and pages worth of questions and clarification and decision-making between minions, leaders, and imms. Also, sometimes recruits of particular clans do not have access to the full clan area where the in-game clan boards are, and so they would by design be left out of the use of the boards.

[mansa]

so pro

thumbs up!

[jhunter]

Absolutely. I'm all for your account handle being masked with an alternate while posting on clan boards.

[Agent_137]

Not that I mind my clan mates knowing who I play, and not that I don't get excited when a familiar player's character joins, but yes, this is probably a good idea.

I feel the same.

[brytta.leofa]

Not that I mind my clan mates knowing who I play, and not that I don't get excited when a familiar player's character joins, but yes, this is probably a good idea.

I hate this idea but it's probably good.

[spawnloser]

I like the 'simply change all names to Anonymous, strip all signatures, suppress avatars sort of solution.

[Lizzie]

I've seen enough confusion with people posting in clans, not using their character names in their posts as it is. I can only imagine how much MORE confusing it would be if they were all anonymous.

Example of what I mean is when there's a planning thread for RPTs:

"I can be around on Tuesday."

think Who is that...

emote goes through the clan folder on the "Introduce yourself" thread to find out who that guy was who just said he can be around on Tuesday.

emote doesn't find it, because that guy never bothered to tell people he was there.

emote posts on the RPT thread, "Uh, hey JohnJones: who do you play?"

emote doesn't see a response until three days after the RPT was supposed to be scheduled.

emote bangs her head against the wall.

Happens ALL the time, not just for RPTs but for just about everything. "I have the green locker." "Well who are you?" "I'm the guy who has the green locker." "Oh." <facepalm> "I'll be moving in 2 weeks so I won't be around for 4 days." "Well who are you?" "...no answer".. <facepalm>

Now imagine all of that, posts by anonymous players, about anonymous characters. It makes it pretty pointless to even have a clan GDB, then. At least now we have a -chance- of actually finding out who JohnJones's character is, that he feels the need to tell everyone he has the green locker, or the blue inix, or is _NOT_ dead but simply off line for a week and should be RPed as being on a mission or whatever.

[Marauder Moe]

Or they could post their character name at the end of each message...

[Gimfalisette]

Or they could post their character name at the end of each message...

Yeah, but Lizzie's point is that players very often forget to do this. And she's right. Trying to run a clan full of people and arrange RPTs when players never give enough detail (even now, without anonymity)...it would be a nightmare if all posters just showed as "Anonymous" in their handle.

[spawnloser]

So?  Seriously, if this suggested change went in, there'd be a LOT more remembering to do that... and requests and reminders to do that.

[flurry]

Surely we can do better than everyone becoming 'Anonymous', though? That almost seems designed for maximum confusion.

[Marauder Moe]

I think they forget to do it because currently they don't have to.  Most clan's I've been in had some sort of clan roster thread.

If all clan posts were anonymous, though, I think people would get into the habit pretty quickly.

[Gimfalisette]

From a data-management perspective, any time you can get the machine to do the work of entering repetitive data for you, that's preferable to putting the burden on the users. Because users will not remember (generally even after training and reminders, users are very poor at data maintenance), this will frustrate system administrators and those who need to use the data, tension is caused between admins / managers / users, and it just ends up being a very much less than ideal system.

In this case, since we're talking about a proposed system, then there's no reason to not request that users receive some non-anonymous, customizable moniker which will identify them as "Player of Amos."

[Marauder Moe]

In this case, since we're talking about a proposed system, then there's no reason to not request that users receive some non-anonymous, customizable moniker which will identify them as "Player of Amos."

No reason except that it may be beyond the reasonable limits of what this forum software is capable of.  An immortal (or someone very familiar with SMF) would probably have to weigh in on that one to settle it.

If it's possible to automatically/easily let people choose an alternate handle, or tie the boards into the game (more likely for Arm 2, I suppose), or whatever, then great.  Let's do that.

However, making posts on clan boards anonymous, to me, sounds like it'd likely be the simplest solution.  For all I know even that isn't practical, though.

[Gimfalisette]

However, making posts on clan boards anonymous, to me, sounds like it'd likely be the simplest solution.  For all I know even that isn't practical, though.

Probably not simple or practical.

The very simplest solution of all would be for the imms to make a new rule that players are required to set up a separate character GDB account for posting on clan forums. This would mask all player-character connections coming from the forums, but would probably result in slightly lower clan forum participation. (Because some players will just be too lazy / too forgetful to make a new account and get on the clan forum.)

[Marauder Moe]

I was thinking in terms of a balance between player effort and staff effort.  Making players create new accounts is a lot of extra work for both players AND staff (I think GDB accounts must be manually approved by the immortals these days).

[jcljules]

Why not just use IG OOC Boards?

[Gimfalisette]

(I think GDB accounts must be manually approved by the immortals these days).

I'm pretty sure they don't require this, since the forum software switchover. That was one of the big reasons for the switchover--to reduce the staff load of approving new accounts.

Why not just use IG OOC Boards?

I already stated a couple reasons why that's not a good solution. *points up*

[Southie]

I think having totally anonymous clan boards would be huuuuuuuuuuuuuugely impractical and inconvenient, but I wouldn't mind removing the option to post AIM names on the GDB and/or requiring separate accounts for clan boards.

[LoD]

If the solution requires someone creating a new account, it's probably a bust for most folks.

Not only would people not want to bother with creating new accounts, but it simply creates a new persona one step removed from your regular persona.  As we move from clan to clan over time, people will begin to associate the player with the character because they will begin to learn the "clan forum accounts" just as well as they've learned the GDB accounts -- which the reason for either complete anonymity or randomized names for every clan forum they join.

What if each regular account could choose a "Clan Forum Identifier" line which could be populated by the player, such as: "Player of Amos" or "Amos Jones", which would only be shown when posting in any of the Clan Forums.

So when they post in the GDB, it might show:

Code Select Expand

LoD

Haha, you nub.  Everybody knows tregils have a whirlwind special attack.

"<insert witty signature here>"

In a Clan Forum post, it might instead show:

Code Select Expand

Anonymous

Haha, you nub.  Everbody knows tregils have a whirlwind special attack.

Player of Amos.

If there was a feature such as that, which allowed people to simply populate one field describing who they are playing and they didn't have to do anything else, this could work a minimal amount of inconvenience to the players and probably provide a better environment for OOC discussion about the clan.

-LoD

[Is Friday]

This would make it less embarrassing to re-join the same clan 4 times because I can't keep my ranger alive. 

[Gimfalisette]

If there was a feature such as that, which allowed people to simply populate one field describing who they are playing and they didn't have to do anything else, this could work a minimal amount of inconvenience to the players and probably provide a better environment for OOC discussion about the clan.

LoD, from a database standpoint, that won't really work. Because if each player only had one alternate name/account/whatever to attach a signature or identifier to, then the signature/identifier when changed would dynamically populate the new information across all posts of the player, including posts which should be attached to past characters. Then the anonymity factor would be largely lost--because anyone with access to the clan forums will see that Player of Amos is now Player of Malik.

A non-insignificant number of people already create new accounts for posting on clan forums. I'd certainly do it if I was required to do so--that would push me beyond the only factor (laziness) which prevents me from doing so. If the ability to attach more than one account to the same email address was implemented, then the laziness factor would mostly be beat, too.

[Barzalene]

Would someone be perky enough to distill into one post the possible problems and possible solutions of each of the methods of anonymity listed above?

I would, but... I'm exhausted. I'm old and tired. Help me.

[Delstro]

Then you have to have a new email account for each GDB account.

[Only He Stands There]

http://www.pookmail.com/

problem solved.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Perhaps when you put in a request for access to a clan forum...the Imms just make you an account called AMOS23848902834 and you are now the 23848902834th player of Amos.  And when you die, and you put in that you are dead they take you off and that account is gone.  Or they can reuse them so there is only maybe 10 Amos accounts...and when your character dies.  You report thus.  They change the password on it...and now you aren't Amos007 and don't have access to it.  Accounts without the ability to change information on and only allowed to access the clan forums maybe?

Dunno.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I don't know how possible this is, but could there be a field in the GDB user's profile that they could edit to put in the name/alias of their current character?  It'd be invisible to everyone except the player and the staff, and just replace the player's GDB handle when they post on clan boards, along with their signature and avatar being invisible.  I expect this has already been brought up in this thread, but I didn't read the whole thing.

Personally, I kind of like tying characters to GDB accounts I've known for a while, but this is a personal curiosity thing, and I can get over losing it for the sake of preventing OOC information having IC consequences.

[Lizzie]

If there was some way to flag the boards themselves..rather than accounts.

So all clan boards would have a *required* field.

And all accounts would have a *required* field for their current character name.

And the ONLY time that character name would show up, is if that account posted on a clan board. And, that name would -always- show up. And...you would be required to re-visit that field on your account, every time you changed clans. You could re-visit it and click a "no change" button maybe..if you're still on the same character and just shifting clans. But you wouldn't be able to post anywhere, if you changed clans, and didn't do -something- to that field.

Then I could see doing an anonymous account thing.

Otherwise, I'd rather just keep things how they are now.

[Shoka Windrunner]

How about we just eliminate any possibility of OOC spoilage...take the possibility right out the door.

Anyone tell me that that above statement is bad?  Cause I'd love to hear how.

I say...screw it.  Make the clan boards on a DIFFERENT BOARD system than this one.  Or on the same but in addition, and you have to create an account there.

Take out the AIM MSN YAHOO MESSENGER EMAIL stuff.

Take it all away.  No IRC.  No nuffink.  No OOC communication except what is/can be monitored by staff.

Remove any and all collusion to that effect.  Any possibility of collusion to that effect.

You'd still be able to keep your buddies you've already made.  Can speak to them.  And maybe you can go recruit more people into the game and you'll have their information too.  But as new people come in, the only AIM's they should see are Helpers.  That's all.

Seriously.  Sorry LoD...just expanding on your idea.   

Then...if it's thought something OOC happened in game, well.  There you go.  Most of that possibility...AS TIME GOES BY AND MORE PLAYERS JOIN AND/OR LEAVE...that possibility will go away.  Less whining, less anger, less suspicion, less passing of knowledge, less OOC planning of IC events...however much or little this happens now, it disappearing completely...would be....

A. Good. Thing.  (TM)

Especially before the new game comes out and people start compiling all this knowledge of material locations and recipes all over again and sharing with their friends until they 'collect them all.'

If you aren't one of these people, then you should agree with this.  If you do disagree.  I'd love to hear why.  When you have a clan board for OOC meetings.  And if you are a 'new group' you probably aren't as organized as an 'organization' yet that word is passed in timely manner and doing it ICly would sort of represent that.  Or get permission from the IMM's first to allow it to be passed through use of OOC command.  Anyway.

[LoD]

The problem with that suggestion, Shoka, is that the GDB is already heavily moderated against the sharing of IC information, including the identity of your current character.  The very nature of the public forums prohibits the sharing of information which would necessitate the anonymity I'm proposing specifically for the clan forums.  In addition to a game, Armageddon is a community of players that form friendships and relationships based on interactions they have outside of the game.  Users have various forms of contact information available so that they can:

• Make friends with other players.
• Know how to approach helpers.
• Contact individuals with comments on a thread better suited to personal messages.

Removing or restricting many of those features would be a strike against the community rather than OOC abuse, because we're already operating in a moderated OOC environment.

The clan forums are a moderated IC environment.  The names of people's characters, whether their character is still alive, who is using which locker, when certain clan-specific events will be taking place, etc...are all discussed on these boards.  The discussion isn't the problem, it's the fact that players are able to see who is playing the other characters in their clan and could form judgments based on that knowledge, allowing it to affect their game play in a positive or negative fashion.

Since we strive so diligently for anonymity in the GDB public forums, I see no reason why that same effort shouldn't translate even more so to the private clan forums where some IC information is actually allowed and being passed around.

-LoD

[Shoka Windrunner]

The problem with that suggestion, Shoka, is that the GDB is already heavily moderated against the sharing of IC information, including the identity of your current character.  The very nature of the public forums prohibits the sharing of information which would necessitate the anonymity I'm proposing specifically for the clan forums.  In addition to a game, Armageddon is a community of players that form friendships and relationships based on interactions they have outside of the game.  Users have various forms of contact information available so that they can:

• Make friends with other players.
• Know how to approach helpers.
• Contact individuals with comments on a thread better suited to personal messages.

Removing or restricting many of those features would be a strike against the community rather than OOC abuse, because we're already operating in a moderated OOC environment.

The clan forums are a moderated IC environment.  The names of people's characters, whether their character is still alive, who is using which locker, when certain clan-specific events will be taking place, etc...are all discussed on these boards.  The discussion isn't the problem, it's the fact that players are able to see who is playing the other characters in their clan and could form judgments based on that knowledge, allowing it to affect their game play in a positive or negative fashion.

Since we strive so diligently for anonymity in the GDB public forums, I see no reason why that same effort shouldn't translate even more so to the private clan forums where some IC information is actually allowed and being passed around.

-LoD

But do you disagree that what I stated would be a bad thing to happen?  Even if not implemented in the manner I am stating?

Lack of OOC spread of information to other people and such?

[Tisiphone]

Nobody's addressed Gimf's issue, but I suppose that's something we as players can't solve. It depends on the coding of the forum.

Gimf, if I could, I'd have the forums tie directly into the character field of the request tool to grep the alive character, and rather than having that be a dynamic field in posted messages, a la avatars and sigs, insert it directly as text. That way, when someone was Player of Amos in Kurac from September 2005 to November 2007, 'twon't show as Player of Malik now.

I'd actually rather do that with handles (so that the user "Gimfalisette" appears to be "Talia" in her clan boards) but I'm rather sure that can't be done while restricting handles with timestamps.

[LoD]

But do you disagree that what I stated would be a bad thing to happen?  Even if not implemented in the manner I am stating?

Lack of OOC spread of information to other people and such?

I'm not trying to directly address the OOC spread of information here as much as I am addressing the use of OOC knowledge in recognizing the player in your clan.  Even if we were to create accounts on a separate clan forum board, as long as those accounts were static and unique, we'd be facing down the same problem we are now once people had had some experience with the players of those accounts.

It would still need to be anonymous.

We're talking about situations where JoJo and JimJim are both in House Sath.  JoJo befriends JimJim's character, they have grand plans as a pair of noble siblings.  JoJo then assassinates JimJim's character.  Two months down the road, JimJim is playing a senior merchant when a new junior merchant is accepted and joins the clan.  When introducing themselves, JimJim sees that it's JoJo.

Now, of course, we would expect that JimJim will play fairly and not harbor any kind of grudge or bad feelings toward Jojo.  Not only that, but that he won't allow the fact that JoJo assassinated his character in order to get ahead in his prior clan, when they were supposed to be working on the same team, interfere or influence his game play in the slightest.  Sometimes, those kinds of scenarios are impossible to ignore and as much as you'd like to think that you are being unbiased and playing an entirely new character, you cannot help but allow your previous perceptions about that player weigh on almost every interaction you have with them.

It's unfair to JimJim and it's unfair to JoJo.  They should both be able to play, completely naive to the identity or past history of the other.  That's the only way you can truly allow them to operate without allowing other information to creep into their game play.

If the system creates that anonymity, then I'm certainly not against it.

-LoD

[Shoka Windrunner]

I think I was just expanding it so JoJo's buddy BoBo can't kill JimJim because he knows that JimJim killed JoJo.

Or BoBo can't make JimJim feel like crap and treat him that way because he is in BoBo's clan and BoBo is in charge.

Would eliminate all of that and what you are talking about too.  I was just expanding on what you were saying to cut this part out too.

But yours solves your issue, just maybe not the issue of how JimJim got killed...which was FroFro, friend of JoJo, killing him for a weak IC reason fueled by JoJo's OOC anger.

Whether that scenario ever happens or not...doesn't matter.  It never should.  And shouldn't have much of a chance to do so.

As for people being friends and such...there is OOC board...there are APM's...There are PM's.  All of which, except what is whispered at an APM, can probably be monitored by the board staff.

[Rahnevyn]

I will comment and say that as staff, we do tend to notice "questionable" interactions between player accounts already and keep our eyes on it.

It isn't too hard to notice "Hey, acct Jim and acct Joe keep meeting up, this is the third time in a row now." or "Anyone think it's odd that acct Sally's PCs all try and kill Lord Amos after he betrayed her aide?"

Without giving a verdict on this thread (since it needs someone higher up), I think I can assure you that 1) we do notice and 2) no matter what we do, we won't be able to (and probably don't want to) squelch all OOC contact between players.

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, if I could, I'd have the forums tie directly into the character field of the request tool to grep the alive character, and rather than having that be a dynamic field in posted messages, a la avatars and sigs, insert it directly as text. That way, when someone was Player of Amos in Kurac from September 2005 to November 2007, 'twon't show as Player of Malik now.

I'd actually rather do that with handles (so that the user "Gimfalisette" appears to be "Talia" in her clan boards) but I'm rather sure that can't be done while restricting handles with timestamps.

Your suggestion is exactly what I was thinking, except that I'd allow the user to choose the name to be displayed for their character rather than having it be forced by the database, since pretty frequently players will NOT use their characters' truenames in general roleplay.

Without giving a verdict on this thread (since it needs someone higher up), I think I can assure you that 1) we do notice and 2) no matter what we do, we won't be able to (and probably don't want to) squelch all OOC contact between players.

I'm really not fond of the idea of never having any OOC contact between players at all. There are a few players that I've exchanged PMs with regularly who I have no idea who they play, and we don't talk about IC stuff, but we have side conversations about forum threads or general gameplay issues (examples: "I'm having a hard time finding a balance between playing too much versus feeling left out of plots." "I enjoy the politics of the game, but I wish there were more people in the cities for a bigger political playerbase." etc.). Seriously, being a part of the ARM community and knowing other players as real people is a huge motivation in my playing and contributing to the game. The goodwill feeling I get from having careful contact with just a few people creates a blanket of positivity which extends to ALL the players, and all the characters I meet IC.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Really, I don't care either way. I mean, I just don't.

[Lizzie]

I really don't think it's a big deal, people finding out who the player is in their clan. I mean, after awhile, you get to recognize the RP styles of certain people, and figure out all by yourself without ANY spread of player-to-player gossip, who plays who.

People who -want- to know who plays who, will find out anyway. There's no way to prevent it, and the more you try, the more inconvenient you make it for people who have a legitimate need to know, while still not preventing people who don't, from knowing anyway. All you're doing is punishing people who don't abuse the system. You're not putting a dent into the manipulations of people who do.

[Tisiphone]

I really don't think it's a big deal, people finding out who the player is in their clan. I mean, after awhile, you get to recognize the RP styles of certain people, and figure out all by yourself without ANY spread of player-to-player gossip, who plays who.

People who -want- to know who plays who, will find out anyway. There's no way to prevent it, and the more you try, the more inconvenient you make it for people who have a legitimate need to know, while still not preventing people who don't, from knowing anyway. All you're doing is punishing people who don't abuse the system. You're not putting a dent into the manipulations of people who do.

The idea, as it has evolved, is more centered around aiding people who want to avoid finding out, even incidentally, than hindering those who wish to.

[Lizzie]

I guess I just don't understand what difference it makes if you do know who plays who. So I know LoD plays Amos the Grebber? How is that going to affect my roleplay? And if my next door neighbor's been playing Lord Sath the Red Robe, why should that have -any- impact on whether or not he buys GrubX for his lawn? I mean really. And if I have a RL tiff with my neighbor over his nasty grubs all migrating to my lawn after he scares them away from his, it won't make my character love or hate his any more or less. One is a game. One is not. People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?

[Gimfalisette]

One is a game. One is not. People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?

You mean newbies? 99% of players under the age of 16? A large porportion of veteran players? Me, occasionally?

I've seen too much crossover of OOC and IC feelings in pretty much every player I've ever talked to (and myself), to have a rosy fairytale idea that it just doesn't happen, or it can be controlled by willpower alone. The right technological tools can help.

[Marauder Moe]

Ideally, it should not matter.  However, it does, at the very least at a subconscious level.  I don't think it's anyone's fault.

Its along the same lines of the characters who attract more attention ICly are not the ones described as being attractive, but rather those with the most colorful roleplay.

[LoD]

The idea, as it has evolved, is more centered around aiding people who want to avoid finding out, even incidentally, than hindering those who wish to.

Yep.  It's never been about punishing people who try to find out who other players are, or to abuse OOC information.  It's about helping the people that don't want to know in the first place, who would like to participate in important clan communication (i.e. I have the blue locker, I will be able to make the RPT, I won't be able to lead this RPT), but only want to view the other entities as their characters rather than their players/characters.

Even when intentions are completely innocent, knowing the player behind the character makes it different.

People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?

No.  People have trouble recognizing the difference all the time.  They have trouble recognizing the difference whether they know it or not. 

If you knew I was playing Amos the Grebber, you might have expectations of my RP or my goals.  If I made you angry or happy, you might want to send me a private message.  If we had dealings in another clan where I made your life hell and I was doing it again, you might think I had a grudge against you.  Conversely, if we were good friends and spoke frequently outside the game, that might factor into your decision making process when you are deciding whether or not to let me know something about my character, or punish me, or promote me, or allow me to do something.  If I refused your character something you -really- wanted to do, you might be tempted to contact me and try to explain your side of things -- especially if we'd already had a history of friendly non-IC sensitive game communication.

If you can keep all of these things completely separate without it impacting your game play or thought process whatsoever, you must be unique.  I certainly can't.  Even when I try to stay unbiased -- me trying to stay unbiased is -already- making an impact.  They are having an impact on me either way. 

That's the point of the anonymous system.  You may be able to easily recognize people's RP quirks and identify them, but not everyone is that sensitive and some of those people would like to keep it that way.

-LoD

[Lizzie]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it. Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who? I played a character who couldn't stand one person...and then another character who was their best friend. And yet another who knew them, but didn't really care one way or another about them. Is it really -that- unique or unusual for this to happen? I knew who played that character. It had no impact at all on my RPing..and if that person knew who all my characters were, they did a fine job of not letting it impact their interactions with them. If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

[Tisiphone]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it. Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who? I played a character who couldn't stand one person...and then another character who was their best friend. And yet another who knew them, but didn't really care one way or another about them. Is it really -that- unique or unusual for this to happen? I knew who played that character. It had no impact at all on my RPing..and if that person knew who all my characters were, they did a fine job of not letting it impact their interactions with them. If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

Perhaps you are right about the consistency and reconciliatory abilities of most people. Nevertheless, the system as proposed wouldn't harm your segment of the people in any way, and would aid those of us who have more trouble or don't wish to bother to compartmentalize our thoughts about the game.

[LoD]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it.

It's not about giving credit or under appreciating people, nor is it about associating that anyone has a problem that needs to be resolved.  It's about being consistent with our policies and practices as they apply to the GDB forums, public or private.  It's about creating a feature that allows players to participate in IC discussions and communication without adding the unnecessary (and unwanted by some) layer of player recognition.

Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who?

It bothers me.  I don't want to know who the other people in my clan are.  I only want to know and interact with the characters, not the players.  I want to be able to participate in the IC coordination and communication provided with the GDB private forums, and I believe it would be an overall benefit to have those forums altered to protect the names of those involved.

People have given many reasons why they wouldn't want others to know, or to know themselves.

• They don't want to be embarrassed because it's their fourth character in a row in a week.
• They feel like other players have treated them differently when they find out it's them.
• They feel like male players treat their female character differently when they find out the player is male, or vice versa.
• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

It's not a punishment, it's a feature.  It's a feature for people that want it.  And it's a feature that probably should have existed from the beginning to create as little OOC abuse and communication as possible while promoting the best environment for immersion and unbiased game play.

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

And I think OOC communication could even be a good thing in some cases. Like me and another player, we're planning brother characters in the future. I know him pretty well, he's a good player, and I know for sure we're on at about the same hours. We can plot things, so many facets of the brother's past and personalities that would just become a chore if I posted a "Brother Role Wanted" on the GDB and had to sort through whoever wanted to go with it.

[Delstro]

Personally, -IF- we are all mature about things, it shouldn't matter.
We are all in it to have fun. My fun doesn't involve PMing you and getting to know you. However, on that line. If I have played in clans with you and you have consistently played crazily, and destructive, and against the game world, I am going to keep that on record in my head, so if you abuse me and you continually make my gaming experience bad, I am going to shift my focus away from you until I trust you, or I am just going to quit. Straight up.

Take the following Situation.
You are playing in an ANON Board under names of your characters. Right now, you are playing Amos Hardnose and you are being a dick IC and OOC to me, you are going to discourage me from playing, and this is because I can't avoid you.
If I take a couple days break from playing and come back after you have "disappeared" to find another character Thethug being a dick IC and OOC, I am going to think "Hey, Armageddon sucks pretty badly, why is everyone acting this way? I think I'll just stop for a week." Is that somehow better than knowing that Account Gimf always plays A-holes and is an A-hole IRL? I doubt it.

Another situation.
What is that rule? Fear people in large groups? Fear stupid/angry/mean people when they are anonymous?

It is going to be tempting for you to be more of an asshole OOCly just because you have another level of anonamity(sp). I know it is. I don't want that. Right now everyone for the most part is accepting of each other, sure we have some tight knit groups of players, those players that are always in the same clan. That is fine to me. It doesn't sound like a problem. If it is more enjoyable to you if you can talk to your IRL friends about those awesome new shoes you bought, or that RPT going down next week, or that RPT you were both in last week, again that is fine to me. Draw a line somewhere. A line that you will not cross when it comes to talking about IC things OOCly.

Added:
I'm all for it if there is a feature you could use to make yourself Anon to post, but I don't want full Anon across the board. It doesn't bode well. It all boils down to maturity and we have a very young crowd.

• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

I would love to talk to anybody that has experienced one of these problems OOCly, I just have so many questions.

[LoD]

Personally, -IF- we are all mature about things, it shouldn't matter.

People are mistaking this suggestion as a solution to a problem with people not being able to RP without bringing OOC actions, intentions, and communication into the game.

Even if we all were mature, this is still something that could be valuable.  It's like saying that as long as we have good imaginations, we should be able to enjoy a movie just as well if we know the ending.  But that simply isn't true.  You might enjoy different things about the movie.  You might be able to appreciate parts of the film, and still enjoy it immensely -- but it won't ever be the same as when you were viewing it for the first time, completely ignorant of what was to come.

It's a simple question - would you rather play with the potential for bias, or without it?

If we're all so mature and this has nothing to do with the ability of the player base to separate IC and OOC, why do you thin the GDB public forums are so heavily moderated for IC content and divulging who plays what character?

Let's say that you attend some talk session where everyone is masked so they can feel free about expressing their issues and problems.  One night before walking into the session, you see your wife enter the building with a mask in her hand on the evening when everyone will be talking frankly about their home lives and issues.

Now, no matter how hard the person thinks that they will be understanding, no matter what the wife says in the session, no matter how honest she is about things that bother her about their home life, that he's going to be able to go back home and pretend like it didn't happen?  Pretend those things weren't said?  That it wouldn't have any impact on his daily activities or thought processes?

It's not so different than the mental difficulties involved with treating a character played by the person who just murdered your last two PC's with the same level of openness and unsuspecting behavior.  It's not a question about your ability to RP that situation appropriately, but more about whether you would play the scene better if you never knew about them in the first place.

I would argue the latter in almost every circumstance, which is why I think the feature would be a help more than a hindrance.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

We can plot things, so many facets of the brother's past and personalities that would just become a chore if I posted a "Brother Role Wanted" on the GDB and had to sort through whoever wanted to go with it.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to arrange relative roles with someone you enjoy playing with, but if you do it exclusively and never open roles up to players you don't know at all, then you're doing yourself and the playerbase as a whole (and the overall good of the game) a real disservice. If I hadn't opened up a role in May '07 to the playerbase, I might never have played with a player or three who I now regard as true delights and some of the best RP experiences I've ever had.

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

Sorry, but I don't buy you saying that this kind of situation is not a problem. I just don't.

Is that somehow better than knowing that Account Gimf always plays A-holes and is an A-hole IRL? I doubt it.

...

• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

I would love to talk to anybody that has experienced one of these problems OOCly, I just have so many questions.

I'll give you a couple specific examples.

Player Amos, who I had just begun playing with, told me (once they found out my forum name) that Player Malik had told them to avoid making a new character in a particular city in the game because "Gimf plays there." Player Amos had never played with me before, and was pleasantly surprised and enjoyed playing with me quite a bit. So, yes, players form opinions about other players and are more than comfortable to let that direct their IC actions--and then also to influence other players, based on those opinions.

Extremely frequently, when people have found out who the player behind my character is (through clan forums or otherwise), they have contacted me via PM or IM and attempted immediately to start up conversations about IC issues. Sometimes people find me on IM even though my IM handle is not listed, and/or I have not given permission to contact me on IM.

[Qzzrbl]

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

Sorry, but I don't buy you saying that this kind of situation is not a problem. I just don't.

Just to clear it up, of course I'm not saying situations like that aren't a problem. Though the character I was playing at the time was unsuspectingly lured into a trap and killed. But IC info like that over an OOC channel can be problematic, and I try to change the subject if it starts veering off into something too IC. But, then again, that's just me, and we can't expect the entire playerbase to do the same.

[ale six]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

[jcljules]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

Exactly the reason I don't want my anonymity threatened... I wouldn't want those annoyed by my posts to take it out on my poor, innocent character.

[Qzzrbl]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

Exactly the reason I don't want my anonymity threatened... I wouldn't want those annoyed by my posts to take it out on my poor, innocent character.

Plenty of people make an entirely separate account that they use primarily for clan boards.

[Barzalene]

Whether people think this is the greatest idea ever, or just think it's silly, I don't think anyone is really opposed to this idea.  There is no downside.


So, I think the question shouldn't be should we, but rather could we? Can we do this without having to hire a team of crack coders to work round the clock for the next twenty-four years earning time and a half?

What is the easiest way to code-wise to accomplish it? Can any among us write a program, or do a thingy of some technical sort to make this feasable?

[Delstro]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

[Barzalene]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

I don't understand why.

[Delstro]

I'm trying to figure out why I feel it is elitist. More as it develops.

[LoD]

I'm trying to figure out why I feel it is elitist. More as it develops.

I guess I could see people on the regular GDB being emboldened by an Anonymous handle so that they could criticize whomever they pleased without fear of recognition or retribution, but I just don't see that happening on a private clan forum where the player's names would be somehow linked.  They're still accountable for their words, and the topics aren't nearly as much discussion as simple announcements and coordination efforts.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

You missed the point. YOU asked for specific examples of how people get an idea about a player from GDB posts, and then let that affect IC dealings. I gave it to you. The post was not about whether or not I care about what people think of me, or whether or not I should change. (I don't, and it's very unlikely to happen.) It's amusing that now you've had specific examples presented, you don't want to deal with them.

The current availability of player-character information on the clan forums is, like LoD said, clearly the opposite of the general forum policy of not revealing one's character, and it undoubtedly contributes to laxness amongst the playerbase. If everyone didn't know who everyone else was playing, then by default there could be no cliqueishness in ARM...and that would be the antithesis of elitism.

[mansa]

I think the major situation is the gender roles.

People don't want other people to know that they are playing the opposite sex.  Because people won't mudsex with me when I'm playing girls.    That's bullshit!

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with the original idea. Do the staff look down on players who don't use the OOC clan boards? Because I'm thinking about just staying away from them, as I don't really like how it's turned out for me, knowing who people play as, or having others know which characters are mine.

[Delstro]

Well Gimf, I'm just going to stick to my last post and say that it doesn't matter if we are all mature. We shouldn't let people bully us into sharing IC information, and we shouldn't stoop down to that level and start handing it out like it is going out of style. I'm going to stand by my assumption that not all of the knowledge gained from knowing who plays what character is bad. I am however going to give up on this thread as I can feel myself about to take 4 lefts.

[LoD]

Well Gimf, I'm just going to stick to my last post and say that it doesn't matter if we are all mature. We shouldn't let people bully us into sharing IC information, and we shouldn't stoop down to that level and start handing it out like it is going out of style. I'm going to stand by my assumption that not all of the knowledge gained from knowing who plays what character is bad. I am however going to give up on this thread as I can feel myself about to take 4 lefts.

Being mature has absolutely zero to do with this thread.  Zero.

We're not discussing one's ability to handle the IC/OOC separation of their character and player knowledge, though that is a related discussion.

It's about the overall experience.  Qzzrbl mentioned an occurrence where a friend might tell you that someone is planning to kill your character.  From that simple exchange, the experience will be forever changed for you.  You'll expect it.  Even if you're "mature" and allow it to happen without the knowledge affecting your character's decision, you lose out because it didn't catch you by surprise.

If someone is playing your character's romantic interest and you find out that it's a same sex player, you might suddenly become reserved and rationalize behavior that takes you out of situations in which you perfectly comfortable before.  You may keep them as a romantic involvement, but your attitude toward the scenes in which you participate may shift or change because of that knowledge.

You are going to experience the game differently when you are ignorant of this kind of information, and it has absolutely nothing about being mature or immature.  It simply has to do with being aware or unaware.  It's not something that can be escaped if you happen to be mature, because we're talking about the reward you obtain through your game play.  This game can bring high levels of emotional involvement when plots take exciting turns, or your character's actions bring with them potential risks.

And you should want to protect the integrity of the story for others, but also for yourself by remaining as removed from OOC communication as possible so that your character's actions are completely genuine rather than the reserved machinations of a mature player submitting to a foretold chain of events.  Communication with other players, especially when you are playing closely with one another, will almost always begin to skirt IC issues because it's human nature to discuss fun experiences with someone that shares your passion and enthusiasm for the same hobby.  It's not about being mature, immature, good, bad -- it's natural to want to discuss these things.

That's why it becomes even more important to remove the temptation altogether.

Ultimately, it's a feature for people who would like to keep that temptation removed and likewise not have their handle displayed to fellow clan members.  It's not a punishment for immature people, it's a feature for mature people.  That isn't to say that people who don't like the idea aren't mature, but more that the entire feature idea has nothing to do with one's level of maturity.

-LoD

[Delstro]

Well LoD, you do serve a mean good reason. Mean as in tasty, not asshole-ish.
People are too attached to their characters I guess, which is good, but also bad. Some people are not so attached (Like me) which is bad, but also good. They each have their positives and negatives. I think this idea wont affect the majority of players, because they, like me, don't know anyone anyway on a personal level OOCly. I am going to agree to disagree on this.

[FuSoYa]

I still can't see anything about this idea I wouldn't love.  If it was brought on I think it'd be a great thing and one I'd love.

Brandon

[Shoka Windrunner]

Well LoD, you do serve a mean good reason. Mean as in tasty, not asshole-ish.
People are too attached to their characters I guess, which is good, but also bad. Some people are not so attached (Like me) which is bad, but also good. They each have their positives and negatives. I think this idea wont affect the majority of players, because they, like me, don't know anyone anyway on a personal level OOCly. I am going to agree to disagree on this.

If it won't affect most...then does it matter either way?  Sounds like you are abstaining from the vote to me.  I'm still for it.