Anonymous Clan Boards

[Marauder Moe]

I was thinking in terms of a balance between player effort and staff effort.  Making players create new accounts is a lot of extra work for both players AND staff (I think GDB accounts must be manually approved by the immortals these days).

[jcljules]

Why not just use IG OOC Boards?

[Gimfalisette]

(I think GDB accounts must be manually approved by the immortals these days).

I'm pretty sure they don't require this, since the forum software switchover. That was one of the big reasons for the switchover--to reduce the staff load of approving new accounts.

Why not just use IG OOC Boards?

I already stated a couple reasons why that's not a good solution. *points up*

[Southie]

I think having totally anonymous clan boards would be huuuuuuuuuuuuuugely impractical and inconvenient, but I wouldn't mind removing the option to post AIM names on the GDB and/or requiring separate accounts for clan boards.

[LoD]

If the solution requires someone creating a new account, it's probably a bust for most folks.

Not only would people not want to bother with creating new accounts, but it simply creates a new persona one step removed from your regular persona.  As we move from clan to clan over time, people will begin to associate the player with the character because they will begin to learn the "clan forum accounts" just as well as they've learned the GDB accounts -- which the reason for either complete anonymity or randomized names for every clan forum they join.

What if each regular account could choose a "Clan Forum Identifier" line which could be populated by the player, such as: "Player of Amos" or "Amos Jones", which would only be shown when posting in any of the Clan Forums.

So when they post in the GDB, it might show:

Code Select Expand

LoD

Haha, you nub.  Everybody knows tregils have a whirlwind special attack.

"<insert witty signature here>"

In a Clan Forum post, it might instead show:

Code Select Expand

Anonymous

Haha, you nub.  Everbody knows tregils have a whirlwind special attack.

Player of Amos.

If there was a feature such as that, which allowed people to simply populate one field describing who they are playing and they didn't have to do anything else, this could work a minimal amount of inconvenience to the players and probably provide a better environment for OOC discussion about the clan.

-LoD

[Is Friday]

This would make it less embarrassing to re-join the same clan 4 times because I can't keep my ranger alive. 

[Gimfalisette]

If there was a feature such as that, which allowed people to simply populate one field describing who they are playing and they didn't have to do anything else, this could work a minimal amount of inconvenience to the players and probably provide a better environment for OOC discussion about the clan.

LoD, from a database standpoint, that won't really work. Because if each player only had one alternate name/account/whatever to attach a signature or identifier to, then the signature/identifier when changed would dynamically populate the new information across all posts of the player, including posts which should be attached to past characters. Then the anonymity factor would be largely lost--because anyone with access to the clan forums will see that Player of Amos is now Player of Malik.

A non-insignificant number of people already create new accounts for posting on clan forums. I'd certainly do it if I was required to do so--that would push me beyond the only factor (laziness) which prevents me from doing so. If the ability to attach more than one account to the same email address was implemented, then the laziness factor would mostly be beat, too.

[Barzalene]

Would someone be perky enough to distill into one post the possible problems and possible solutions of each of the methods of anonymity listed above?

I would, but... I'm exhausted. I'm old and tired. Help me.

[Delstro]

Then you have to have a new email account for each GDB account.

[Only He Stands There]

http://www.pookmail.com/

problem solved.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Perhaps when you put in a request for access to a clan forum...the Imms just make you an account called AMOS23848902834 and you are now the 23848902834th player of Amos.  And when you die, and you put in that you are dead they take you off and that account is gone.  Or they can reuse them so there is only maybe 10 Amos accounts...and when your character dies.  You report thus.  They change the password on it...and now you aren't Amos007 and don't have access to it.  Accounts without the ability to change information on and only allowed to access the clan forums maybe?

Dunno.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I don't know how possible this is, but could there be a field in the GDB user's profile that they could edit to put in the name/alias of their current character?  It'd be invisible to everyone except the player and the staff, and just replace the player's GDB handle when they post on clan boards, along with their signature and avatar being invisible.  I expect this has already been brought up in this thread, but I didn't read the whole thing.

Personally, I kind of like tying characters to GDB accounts I've known for a while, but this is a personal curiosity thing, and I can get over losing it for the sake of preventing OOC information having IC consequences.

[Lizzie]

If there was some way to flag the boards themselves..rather than accounts.

So all clan boards would have a *required* field.

And all accounts would have a *required* field for their current character name.

And the ONLY time that character name would show up, is if that account posted on a clan board. And, that name would -always- show up. And...you would be required to re-visit that field on your account, every time you changed clans. You could re-visit it and click a "no change" button maybe..if you're still on the same character and just shifting clans. But you wouldn't be able to post anywhere, if you changed clans, and didn't do -something- to that field.

Then I could see doing an anonymous account thing.

Otherwise, I'd rather just keep things how they are now.

[Shoka Windrunner]

How about we just eliminate any possibility of OOC spoilage...take the possibility right out the door.

Anyone tell me that that above statement is bad?  Cause I'd love to hear how.

I say...screw it.  Make the clan boards on a DIFFERENT BOARD system than this one.  Or on the same but in addition, and you have to create an account there.

Take out the AIM MSN YAHOO MESSENGER EMAIL stuff.

Take it all away.  No IRC.  No nuffink.  No OOC communication except what is/can be monitored by staff.

Remove any and all collusion to that effect.  Any possibility of collusion to that effect.

You'd still be able to keep your buddies you've already made.  Can speak to them.  And maybe you can go recruit more people into the game and you'll have their information too.  But as new people come in, the only AIM's they should see are Helpers.  That's all.

Seriously.  Sorry LoD...just expanding on your idea.   

Then...if it's thought something OOC happened in game, well.  There you go.  Most of that possibility...AS TIME GOES BY AND MORE PLAYERS JOIN AND/OR LEAVE...that possibility will go away.  Less whining, less anger, less suspicion, less passing of knowledge, less OOC planning of IC events...however much or little this happens now, it disappearing completely...would be....

A. Good. Thing.  (TM)

Especially before the new game comes out and people start compiling all this knowledge of material locations and recipes all over again and sharing with their friends until they 'collect them all.'

If you aren't one of these people, then you should agree with this.  If you do disagree.  I'd love to hear why.  When you have a clan board for OOC meetings.  And if you are a 'new group' you probably aren't as organized as an 'organization' yet that word is passed in timely manner and doing it ICly would sort of represent that.  Or get permission from the IMM's first to allow it to be passed through use of OOC command.  Anyway.

[LoD]

The problem with that suggestion, Shoka, is that the GDB is already heavily moderated against the sharing of IC information, including the identity of your current character.  The very nature of the public forums prohibits the sharing of information which would necessitate the anonymity I'm proposing specifically for the clan forums.  In addition to a game, Armageddon is a community of players that form friendships and relationships based on interactions they have outside of the game.  Users have various forms of contact information available so that they can:

• Make friends with other players.
• Know how to approach helpers.
• Contact individuals with comments on a thread better suited to personal messages.

Removing or restricting many of those features would be a strike against the community rather than OOC abuse, because we're already operating in a moderated OOC environment.

The clan forums are a moderated IC environment.  The names of people's characters, whether their character is still alive, who is using which locker, when certain clan-specific events will be taking place, etc...are all discussed on these boards.  The discussion isn't the problem, it's the fact that players are able to see who is playing the other characters in their clan and could form judgments based on that knowledge, allowing it to affect their game play in a positive or negative fashion.

Since we strive so diligently for anonymity in the GDB public forums, I see no reason why that same effort shouldn't translate even more so to the private clan forums where some IC information is actually allowed and being passed around.

-LoD

[Shoka Windrunner]

The problem with that suggestion, Shoka, is that the GDB is already heavily moderated against the sharing of IC information, including the identity of your current character.  The very nature of the public forums prohibits the sharing of information which would necessitate the anonymity I'm proposing specifically for the clan forums.  In addition to a game, Armageddon is a community of players that form friendships and relationships based on interactions they have outside of the game.  Users have various forms of contact information available so that they can:

• Make friends with other players.
• Know how to approach helpers.
• Contact individuals with comments on a thread better suited to personal messages.

Removing or restricting many of those features would be a strike against the community rather than OOC abuse, because we're already operating in a moderated OOC environment.

The clan forums are a moderated IC environment.  The names of people's characters, whether their character is still alive, who is using which locker, when certain clan-specific events will be taking place, etc...are all discussed on these boards.  The discussion isn't the problem, it's the fact that players are able to see who is playing the other characters in their clan and could form judgments based on that knowledge, allowing it to affect their game play in a positive or negative fashion.

Since we strive so diligently for anonymity in the GDB public forums, I see no reason why that same effort shouldn't translate even more so to the private clan forums where some IC information is actually allowed and being passed around.

-LoD

But do you disagree that what I stated would be a bad thing to happen?  Even if not implemented in the manner I am stating?

Lack of OOC spread of information to other people and such?

[Tisiphone]

Nobody's addressed Gimf's issue, but I suppose that's something we as players can't solve. It depends on the coding of the forum.

Gimf, if I could, I'd have the forums tie directly into the character field of the request tool to grep the alive character, and rather than having that be a dynamic field in posted messages, a la avatars and sigs, insert it directly as text. That way, when someone was Player of Amos in Kurac from September 2005 to November 2007, 'twon't show as Player of Malik now.

I'd actually rather do that with handles (so that the user "Gimfalisette" appears to be "Talia" in her clan boards) but I'm rather sure that can't be done while restricting handles with timestamps.

[LoD]

But do you disagree that what I stated would be a bad thing to happen?  Even if not implemented in the manner I am stating?

Lack of OOC spread of information to other people and such?

I'm not trying to directly address the OOC spread of information here as much as I am addressing the use of OOC knowledge in recognizing the player in your clan.  Even if we were to create accounts on a separate clan forum board, as long as those accounts were static and unique, we'd be facing down the same problem we are now once people had had some experience with the players of those accounts.

It would still need to be anonymous.

We're talking about situations where JoJo and JimJim are both in House Sath.  JoJo befriends JimJim's character, they have grand plans as a pair of noble siblings.  JoJo then assassinates JimJim's character.  Two months down the road, JimJim is playing a senior merchant when a new junior merchant is accepted and joins the clan.  When introducing themselves, JimJim sees that it's JoJo.

Now, of course, we would expect that JimJim will play fairly and not harbor any kind of grudge or bad feelings toward Jojo.  Not only that, but that he won't allow the fact that JoJo assassinated his character in order to get ahead in his prior clan, when they were supposed to be working on the same team, interfere or influence his game play in the slightest.  Sometimes, those kinds of scenarios are impossible to ignore and as much as you'd like to think that you are being unbiased and playing an entirely new character, you cannot help but allow your previous perceptions about that player weigh on almost every interaction you have with them.

It's unfair to JimJim and it's unfair to JoJo.  They should both be able to play, completely naive to the identity or past history of the other.  That's the only way you can truly allow them to operate without allowing other information to creep into their game play.

If the system creates that anonymity, then I'm certainly not against it.

-LoD

[Shoka Windrunner]

I think I was just expanding it so JoJo's buddy BoBo can't kill JimJim because he knows that JimJim killed JoJo.

Or BoBo can't make JimJim feel like crap and treat him that way because he is in BoBo's clan and BoBo is in charge.

Would eliminate all of that and what you are talking about too.  I was just expanding on what you were saying to cut this part out too.

But yours solves your issue, just maybe not the issue of how JimJim got killed...which was FroFro, friend of JoJo, killing him for a weak IC reason fueled by JoJo's OOC anger.

Whether that scenario ever happens or not...doesn't matter.  It never should.  And shouldn't have much of a chance to do so.

As for people being friends and such...there is OOC board...there are APM's...There are PM's.  All of which, except what is whispered at an APM, can probably be monitored by the board staff.

[Rahnevyn]

I will comment and say that as staff, we do tend to notice "questionable" interactions between player accounts already and keep our eyes on it.

It isn't too hard to notice "Hey, acct Jim and acct Joe keep meeting up, this is the third time in a row now." or "Anyone think it's odd that acct Sally's PCs all try and kill Lord Amos after he betrayed her aide?"

Without giving a verdict on this thread (since it needs someone higher up), I think I can assure you that 1) we do notice and 2) no matter what we do, we won't be able to (and probably don't want to) squelch all OOC contact between players.

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, if I could, I'd have the forums tie directly into the character field of the request tool to grep the alive character, and rather than having that be a dynamic field in posted messages, a la avatars and sigs, insert it directly as text. That way, when someone was Player of Amos in Kurac from September 2005 to November 2007, 'twon't show as Player of Malik now.

I'd actually rather do that with handles (so that the user "Gimfalisette" appears to be "Talia" in her clan boards) but I'm rather sure that can't be done while restricting handles with timestamps.

Your suggestion is exactly what I was thinking, except that I'd allow the user to choose the name to be displayed for their character rather than having it be forced by the database, since pretty frequently players will NOT use their characters' truenames in general roleplay.

Without giving a verdict on this thread (since it needs someone higher up), I think I can assure you that 1) we do notice and 2) no matter what we do, we won't be able to (and probably don't want to) squelch all OOC contact between players.

I'm really not fond of the idea of never having any OOC contact between players at all. There are a few players that I've exchanged PMs with regularly who I have no idea who they play, and we don't talk about IC stuff, but we have side conversations about forum threads or general gameplay issues (examples: "I'm having a hard time finding a balance between playing too much versus feeling left out of plots." "I enjoy the politics of the game, but I wish there were more people in the cities for a bigger political playerbase." etc.). Seriously, being a part of the ARM community and knowing other players as real people is a huge motivation in my playing and contributing to the game. The goodwill feeling I get from having careful contact with just a few people creates a blanket of positivity which extends to ALL the players, and all the characters I meet IC.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Really, I don't care either way. I mean, I just don't.

[Lizzie]

I really don't think it's a big deal, people finding out who the player is in their clan. I mean, after awhile, you get to recognize the RP styles of certain people, and figure out all by yourself without ANY spread of player-to-player gossip, who plays who.

People who -want- to know who plays who, will find out anyway. There's no way to prevent it, and the more you try, the more inconvenient you make it for people who have a legitimate need to know, while still not preventing people who don't, from knowing anyway. All you're doing is punishing people who don't abuse the system. You're not putting a dent into the manipulations of people who do.

[Tisiphone]

I really don't think it's a big deal, people finding out who the player is in their clan. I mean, after awhile, you get to recognize the RP styles of certain people, and figure out all by yourself without ANY spread of player-to-player gossip, who plays who.

People who -want- to know who plays who, will find out anyway. There's no way to prevent it, and the more you try, the more inconvenient you make it for people who have a legitimate need to know, while still not preventing people who don't, from knowing anyway. All you're doing is punishing people who don't abuse the system. You're not putting a dent into the manipulations of people who do.

The idea, as it has evolved, is more centered around aiding people who want to avoid finding out, even incidentally, than hindering those who wish to.

[Lizzie]

I guess I just don't understand what difference it makes if you do know who plays who. So I know LoD plays Amos the Grebber? How is that going to affect my roleplay? And if my next door neighbor's been playing Lord Sath the Red Robe, why should that have -any- impact on whether or not he buys GrubX for his lawn? I mean really. And if I have a RL tiff with my neighbor over his nasty grubs all migrating to my lawn after he scares them away from his, it won't make my character love or hate his any more or less. One is a game. One is not. People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?