Anonymous Clan Boards

[Gimfalisette]

One is a game. One is not. People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?

You mean newbies? 99% of players under the age of 16? A large porportion of veteran players? Me, occasionally?

I've seen too much crossover of OOC and IC feelings in pretty much every player I've ever talked to (and myself), to have a rosy fairytale idea that it just doesn't happen, or it can be controlled by willpower alone. The right technological tools can help.

[Marauder Moe]

Ideally, it should not matter.  However, it does, at the very least at a subconscious level.  I don't think it's anyone's fault.

Its along the same lines of the characters who attract more attention ICly are not the ones described as being attractive, but rather those with the most colorful roleplay.

[LoD]

The idea, as it has evolved, is more centered around aiding people who want to avoid finding out, even incidentally, than hindering those who wish to.

Yep.  It's never been about punishing people who try to find out who other players are, or to abuse OOC information.  It's about helping the people that don't want to know in the first place, who would like to participate in important clan communication (i.e. I have the blue locker, I will be able to make the RPT, I won't be able to lead this RPT), but only want to view the other entities as their characters rather than their players/characters.

Even when intentions are completely innocent, knowing the player behind the character makes it different.

People who have trouble recognizing the difference probably shouldn't be playing Arm anyway, no?

No.  People have trouble recognizing the difference all the time.  They have trouble recognizing the difference whether they know it or not. 

If you knew I was playing Amos the Grebber, you might have expectations of my RP or my goals.  If I made you angry or happy, you might want to send me a private message.  If we had dealings in another clan where I made your life hell and I was doing it again, you might think I had a grudge against you.  Conversely, if we were good friends and spoke frequently outside the game, that might factor into your decision making process when you are deciding whether or not to let me know something about my character, or punish me, or promote me, or allow me to do something.  If I refused your character something you -really- wanted to do, you might be tempted to contact me and try to explain your side of things -- especially if we'd already had a history of friendly non-IC sensitive game communication.

If you can keep all of these things completely separate without it impacting your game play or thought process whatsoever, you must be unique.  I certainly can't.  Even when I try to stay unbiased -- me trying to stay unbiased is -already- making an impact.  They are having an impact on me either way. 

That's the point of the anonymous system.  You may be able to easily recognize people's RP quirks and identify them, but not everyone is that sensitive and some of those people would like to keep it that way.

-LoD

[Lizzie]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it. Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who? I played a character who couldn't stand one person...and then another character who was their best friend. And yet another who knew them, but didn't really care one way or another about them. Is it really -that- unique or unusual for this to happen? I knew who played that character. It had no impact at all on my RPing..and if that person knew who all my characters were, they did a fine job of not letting it impact their interactions with them. If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

[Tisiphone]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it. Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who? I played a character who couldn't stand one person...and then another character who was their best friend. And yet another who knew them, but didn't really care one way or another about them. Is it really -that- unique or unusual for this to happen? I knew who played that character. It had no impact at all on my RPing..and if that person knew who all my characters were, they did a fine job of not letting it impact their interactions with them. If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

Perhaps you are right about the consistency and reconciliatory abilities of most people. Nevertheless, the system as proposed wouldn't harm your segment of the people in any way, and would aid those of us who have more trouble or don't wish to bother to compartmentalize our thoughts about the game.

[LoD]

I guess I must really be unique then LoD, though I think you give me way too much credit, and underappreciate the integrity of many others, when you suggest so many people have some kind of problem with knowing who plays who, that something needs to be "done" about it.

It's not about giving credit or under appreciating people, nor is it about associating that anyone has a problem that needs to be resolved.  It's about being consistent with our policies and practices as they apply to the GDB forums, public or private.  It's about creating a feature that allows players to participate in IC discussions and communication without adding the unnecessary (and unwanted by some) layer of player recognition.

Why should it bother someone knowing who plays who?

It bothers me.  I don't want to know who the other people in my clan are.  I only want to know and interact with the characters, not the players.  I want to be able to participate in the IC coordination and communication provided with the GDB private forums, and I believe it would be an overall benefit to have those forums altered to protect the names of those involved.

People have given many reasons why they wouldn't want others to know, or to know themselves.

• They don't want to be embarrassed because it's their fourth character in a row in a week.
• They feel like other players have treated them differently when they find out it's them.
• They feel like male players treat their female character differently when they find out the player is male, or vice versa.
• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

If it's that much to ask for people to simply be consistent, then sure - maybe something should be done. But I prefer to give people a little more credit than that.

It's not a punishment, it's a feature.  It's a feature for people that want it.  And it's a feature that probably should have existed from the beginning to create as little OOC abuse and communication as possible while promoting the best environment for immersion and unbiased game play.

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

And I think OOC communication could even be a good thing in some cases. Like me and another player, we're planning brother characters in the future. I know him pretty well, he's a good player, and I know for sure we're on at about the same hours. We can plot things, so many facets of the brother's past and personalities that would just become a chore if I posted a "Brother Role Wanted" on the GDB and had to sort through whoever wanted to go with it.

[Delstro]

Personally, -IF- we are all mature about things, it shouldn't matter.
We are all in it to have fun. My fun doesn't involve PMing you and getting to know you. However, on that line. If I have played in clans with you and you have consistently played crazily, and destructive, and against the game world, I am going to keep that on record in my head, so if you abuse me and you continually make my gaming experience bad, I am going to shift my focus away from you until I trust you, or I am just going to quit. Straight up.

Take the following Situation.
You are playing in an ANON Board under names of your characters. Right now, you are playing Amos Hardnose and you are being a dick IC and OOC to me, you are going to discourage me from playing, and this is because I can't avoid you.
If I take a couple days break from playing and come back after you have "disappeared" to find another character Thethug being a dick IC and OOC, I am going to think "Hey, Armageddon sucks pretty badly, why is everyone acting this way? I think I'll just stop for a week." Is that somehow better than knowing that Account Gimf always plays A-holes and is an A-hole IRL? I doubt it.

Another situation.
What is that rule? Fear people in large groups? Fear stupid/angry/mean people when they are anonymous?

It is going to be tempting for you to be more of an asshole OOCly just because you have another level of anonamity(sp). I know it is. I don't want that. Right now everyone for the most part is accepting of each other, sure we have some tight knit groups of players, those players that are always in the same clan. That is fine to me. It doesn't sound like a problem. If it is more enjoyable to you if you can talk to your IRL friends about those awesome new shoes you bought, or that RPT going down next week, or that RPT you were both in last week, again that is fine to me. Draw a line somewhere. A line that you will not cross when it comes to talking about IC things OOCly.

Added:
I'm all for it if there is a feature you could use to make yourself Anon to post, but I don't want full Anon across the board. It doesn't bode well. It all boils down to maturity and we have a very young crowd.

• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

I would love to talk to anybody that has experienced one of these problems OOCly, I just have so many questions.

[LoD]

Personally, -IF- we are all mature about things, it shouldn't matter.

People are mistaking this suggestion as a solution to a problem with people not being able to RP without bringing OOC actions, intentions, and communication into the game.

Even if we all were mature, this is still something that could be valuable.  It's like saying that as long as we have good imaginations, we should be able to enjoy a movie just as well if we know the ending.  But that simply isn't true.  You might enjoy different things about the movie.  You might be able to appreciate parts of the film, and still enjoy it immensely -- but it won't ever be the same as when you were viewing it for the first time, completely ignorant of what was to come.

It's a simple question - would you rather play with the potential for bias, or without it?

If we're all so mature and this has nothing to do with the ability of the player base to separate IC and OOC, why do you thin the GDB public forums are so heavily moderated for IC content and divulging who plays what character?

Let's say that you attend some talk session where everyone is masked so they can feel free about expressing their issues and problems.  One night before walking into the session, you see your wife enter the building with a mask in her hand on the evening when everyone will be talking frankly about their home lives and issues.

Now, no matter how hard the person thinks that they will be understanding, no matter what the wife says in the session, no matter how honest she is about things that bother her about their home life, that he's going to be able to go back home and pretend like it didn't happen?  Pretend those things weren't said?  That it wouldn't have any impact on his daily activities or thought processes?

It's not so different than the mental difficulties involved with treating a character played by the person who just murdered your last two PC's with the same level of openness and unsuspecting behavior.  It's not a question about your ability to RP that situation appropriately, but more about whether you would play the scene better if you never knew about them in the first place.

I would argue the latter in almost every circumstance, which is why I think the feature would be a help more than a hindrance.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

We can plot things, so many facets of the brother's past and personalities that would just become a chore if I posted a "Brother Role Wanted" on the GDB and had to sort through whoever wanted to go with it.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to arrange relative roles with someone you enjoy playing with, but if you do it exclusively and never open roles up to players you don't know at all, then you're doing yourself and the playerbase as a whole (and the overall good of the game) a real disservice. If I hadn't opened up a role in May '07 to the playerbase, I might never have played with a player or three who I now regard as true delights and some of the best RP experiences I've ever had.

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

Sorry, but I don't buy you saying that this kind of situation is not a problem. I just don't.

Is that somehow better than knowing that Account Gimf always plays A-holes and is an A-hole IRL? I doubt it.

...

• They are afraid they will treat someone differently because they'll know it's them.
• They'll be tempted to initiate OOC conversation with people in their clan, which they feel will begin innocently but likely turn to IC conversations eventually.
• They don't want to deal with the additional baggage that comes with knowing certain player's history and actions when dealing with their characters, because it can have adverse impacts on their RP.

I would love to talk to anybody that has experienced one of these problems OOCly, I just have so many questions.

I'll give you a couple specific examples.

Player Amos, who I had just begun playing with, told me (once they found out my forum name) that Player Malik had told them to avoid making a new character in a particular city in the game because "Gimf plays there." Player Amos had never played with me before, and was pleasantly surprised and enjoyed playing with me quite a bit. So, yes, players form opinions about other players and are more than comfortable to let that direct their IC actions--and then also to influence other players, based on those opinions.

Extremely frequently, when people have found out who the player behind my character is (through clan forums or otherwise), they have contacted me via PM or IM and attempted immediately to start up conversations about IC issues. Sometimes people find me on IM even though my IM handle is not listed, and/or I have not given permission to contact me on IM.

[Qzzrbl]

Is this really necessary? I talk to a few players over AIM, Yahoo, what-have-you while I'm even IG. We've never really told eachother anything that would affect how we play our character in any way, and if someone does happen to slip up with a, "Dude, that guy's totally gonna try to kill you.". I keep it OOC. My character doesn't even bat an eye, doesn't even look at the person who's totally gonna kill me, even though he's sitting right next to me. He just carries on as he would have without such knowledge because he, as a character, doesn't know.

Sorry, but I don't buy you saying that this kind of situation is not a problem. I just don't.

Just to clear it up, of course I'm not saying situations like that aren't a problem. Though the character I was playing at the time was unsuspectingly lured into a trap and killed. But IC info like that over an OOC channel can be problematic, and I try to change the subject if it starts veering off into something too IC. But, then again, that's just me, and we can't expect the entire playerbase to do the same.

[ale six]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

[jcljules]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

Exactly the reason I don't want my anonymity threatened... I wouldn't want those annoyed by my posts to take it out on my poor, innocent character.

[Qzzrbl]

ya sometimes I feel like people might not like me because of gdb posts i make -_-

we need a way to be sneakier >.>

Exactly the reason I don't want my anonymity threatened... I wouldn't want those annoyed by my posts to take it out on my poor, innocent character.

Plenty of people make an entirely separate account that they use primarily for clan boards.

[Barzalene]

Whether people think this is the greatest idea ever, or just think it's silly, I don't think anyone is really opposed to this idea.  There is no downside.


So, I think the question shouldn't be should we, but rather could we? Can we do this without having to hire a team of crack coders to work round the clock for the next twenty-four years earning time and a half?

What is the easiest way to code-wise to accomplish it? Can any among us write a program, or do a thingy of some technical sort to make this feasable?

[Delstro]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

[Barzalene]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

I don't understand why.

[Delstro]

I'm trying to figure out why I feel it is elitist. More as it develops.

[LoD]

I'm trying to figure out why I feel it is elitist. More as it develops.

I guess I could see people on the regular GDB being emboldened by an Anonymous handle so that they could criticize whomever they pleased without fear of recognition or retribution, but I just don't see that happening on a private clan forum where the player's names would be somehow linked.  They're still accountable for their words, and the topics aren't nearly as much discussion as simple announcements and coordination efforts.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not going to comment on what you said Gimf, because I think you cause that in the way you present yourself on the forums. I am trying to say that in a constructive way, not just to be an asshole.

The downside I see in it is that more people are going to be negative in a non-constructive way. I think it will add an elitist air to the game that won't be conducive to getting more people.

You missed the point. YOU asked for specific examples of how people get an idea about a player from GDB posts, and then let that affect IC dealings. I gave it to you. The post was not about whether or not I care about what people think of me, or whether or not I should change. (I don't, and it's very unlikely to happen.) It's amusing that now you've had specific examples presented, you don't want to deal with them.

The current availability of player-character information on the clan forums is, like LoD said, clearly the opposite of the general forum policy of not revealing one's character, and it undoubtedly contributes to laxness amongst the playerbase. If everyone didn't know who everyone else was playing, then by default there could be no cliqueishness in ARM...and that would be the antithesis of elitism.

[mansa]

I think the major situation is the gender roles.

People don't want other people to know that they are playing the opposite sex.  Because people won't mudsex with me when I'm playing girls.    That's bullshit!

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with the original idea. Do the staff look down on players who don't use the OOC clan boards? Because I'm thinking about just staying away from them, as I don't really like how it's turned out for me, knowing who people play as, or having others know which characters are mine.

[Delstro]

Well Gimf, I'm just going to stick to my last post and say that it doesn't matter if we are all mature. We shouldn't let people bully us into sharing IC information, and we shouldn't stoop down to that level and start handing it out like it is going out of style. I'm going to stand by my assumption that not all of the knowledge gained from knowing who plays what character is bad. I am however going to give up on this thread as I can feel myself about to take 4 lefts.

[LoD]

Well Gimf, I'm just going to stick to my last post and say that it doesn't matter if we are all mature. We shouldn't let people bully us into sharing IC information, and we shouldn't stoop down to that level and start handing it out like it is going out of style. I'm going to stand by my assumption that not all of the knowledge gained from knowing who plays what character is bad. I am however going to give up on this thread as I can feel myself about to take 4 lefts.

Being mature has absolutely zero to do with this thread.  Zero.

We're not discussing one's ability to handle the IC/OOC separation of their character and player knowledge, though that is a related discussion.

It's about the overall experience.  Qzzrbl mentioned an occurrence where a friend might tell you that someone is planning to kill your character.  From that simple exchange, the experience will be forever changed for you.  You'll expect it.  Even if you're "mature" and allow it to happen without the knowledge affecting your character's decision, you lose out because it didn't catch you by surprise.

If someone is playing your character's romantic interest and you find out that it's a same sex player, you might suddenly become reserved and rationalize behavior that takes you out of situations in which you perfectly comfortable before.  You may keep them as a romantic involvement, but your attitude toward the scenes in which you participate may shift or change because of that knowledge.

You are going to experience the game differently when you are ignorant of this kind of information, and it has absolutely nothing about being mature or immature.  It simply has to do with being aware or unaware.  It's not something that can be escaped if you happen to be mature, because we're talking about the reward you obtain through your game play.  This game can bring high levels of emotional involvement when plots take exciting turns, or your character's actions bring with them potential risks.

And you should want to protect the integrity of the story for others, but also for yourself by remaining as removed from OOC communication as possible so that your character's actions are completely genuine rather than the reserved machinations of a mature player submitting to a foretold chain of events.  Communication with other players, especially when you are playing closely with one another, will almost always begin to skirt IC issues because it's human nature to discuss fun experiences with someone that shares your passion and enthusiasm for the same hobby.  It's not about being mature, immature, good, bad -- it's natural to want to discuss these things.

That's why it becomes even more important to remove the temptation altogether.

Ultimately, it's a feature for people who would like to keep that temptation removed and likewise not have their handle displayed to fellow clan members.  It's not a punishment for immature people, it's a feature for mature people.  That isn't to say that people who don't like the idea aren't mature, but more that the entire feature idea has nothing to do with one's level of maturity.

-LoD

[Delstro]

Well LoD, you do serve a mean good reason. Mean as in tasty, not asshole-ish.
People are too attached to their characters I guess, which is good, but also bad. Some people are not so attached (Like me) which is bad, but also good. They each have their positives and negatives. I think this idea wont affect the majority of players, because they, like me, don't know anyone anyway on a personal level OOCly. I am going to agree to disagree on this.