The south...

Its sad that I have to say this, playing almost exclusively there, but Id
like to make an advertisement for PCs in the south.. join some clans... or
just make southern Pc's in general... or hell, just visit!

The north is strangling the south! AHHH!
No not literally, but teh north is indeed killing the south,
for a number of reasons...

One being the Allanak pbase is being sapped by the similar northern
environment that is the same big-cityish feel, thats easier to make your
way in, with a more laxxed general feel of the area. If anything more
lesser filled houses will be closed to follow in suit with fale.
Nenyuk has what... one or less active pc in the south? Kadius 0, Salaar
less then 5, Tor has some less then 8 id say, Borsail has less then 8 id
say, same for Oash. Byn is all but non-existant in the south anymore.
The gaj is almost always empty now...  when usually each night itd be
brimming with fresh Byn runners, gangly rinthers... and all sorts.
But Templars are in full supply! But dwindling after their boom.

Its obviously easier to role-play and have fun in a comfortable environ...
like play in the cruel obsidian jewel of the southern desert, or the bard
filled utopia on the fringes of the forest amidst the grass and scrub...
seems kinda a no brainer. And all I hear nowadays about the north is how
fun it is with all the bards, crafters, houses, now the Byn is there too...

Boxes, woodproducts and almost anything let 1st week woodcrafters make
a great living... almost wealthy in comparison to the south. Without getting
too IC, but when you can sell a woodproduct for near 1000 sids your kinda
set after one or two... and wood seems endless in the north, like sand and
rocks in the south.

Oh! Dont even get me started on rocks. For a scrub and grassy forest
land, the north gets a suprising number of desired rocks and jewels.
Almost all weapon and vaulable jewelry parts come from the north. Like:
Obsidian, which you'd think would be a southern commodity can be found
in the north readily, (north being everything northeast, north, northwest,
or just outwards from Luirs.), quartz, wooden poles, temboeye,
moonstone, tortiseshell, a good number of all medicines, even bone is in
a more ready supply.

Its almost as if the North is designed intentionally to be better and more
player comforting then the south. Rangers can live without fear, needing
only forage for food. I stress food alot because that is a MAJOR problem
for people in the south. If you know where your food is coming from you
can easily live to be 50+ days old by just not being stupid and rushing out
to fight hoards of fireants. In the north with money and resources like
sand, almost everyone survives and can make a name or successful living
by just not being stupid. Any joe with an axe can chop down a tree and
sell it for more money then most people make in a month.

Id dare say in a few years the pbase will be almost exclusively northern
based... even halflings dont seem to be dangerous anymore with all the
new fighter types up there to take care of all the road-hogging baddies.
Byn, house guards, etc etc. All ready and willing to make the peaceful
paradise safer, and get paid well for it. Its almost saddening how peaceful
it was up there my last time. I actually could -walk- from Luirs to Tuluk
with not so much as a hitch, thanks to convient 'rest stops' I call them, and
the constant patrol of freelance fighters making the roadways safe.
And by north I dont just mean Tuluk, but their almost neighborly Luir's,
which Ive heard from a number of sources is becoming as dead as the
South, but they at least get the occassional straggler from Tuluk.

Then of course are the desert elves, gypsies, and plainsfolks which all in
all Id say sap out a good 10 percent of the overall pbase, if not more.
All of these seemingly in the northern hemisphere... when's the last time
there was a tribe of speciality type characters in the South? Like I imagine
the 'plainsfolk' have a similar type of situation to gypsies... where food
and water arnt really a problem. So these are of course ideal places to
go, because one of the main worries of the game is gone. Desert elves
are like this in a way, because their incredible endurance allows them to
run to all these water holes that are around the world, or be easily
self-employed as hunters for their tribes or whatever  putting them over
the run of the mill 1st day warrior in a number of ways.

The templars and nobles are nicer, there are like a billion immortals
assigned to the region so NPC interactment seems more common, there
are actually merchants to deal with about special requests as opposed to
the south... its just more well maintained. More shops, more taverns...

Anyways... all Im saying is the South isnt that bad.
Water and food may be scarce... it may be almost impossible to live
outside the walls, or walk anywhere. You most likely wont have an easy
time making money, you'll probably always offend some noble or
templar, and alot of the time you wont see -anyone- for at least half the
time you play like me, but hey...

In conclusion I pray it will cycle out, but I really dont see how it will. There
is nothing making the north an unfun place to play for most people. Its
a perfect balance between harsh and unharsh... I personally cant stand it
up there, because its almost what the game shouldnt be... but most new
people to the mud especially would flourish in the comfort of the north, as
opposed to dying harshly and repeatedly in the almost impossible, and
now gradually emptying south... so there arnt even a good deal of people
for new people to get acclimated with.

I hope this raises awareness on what I consider a crisis in development.
I admit it isnt as bad as I make it out to seem, as I still have alot of fun in
the south, but when I hear stories of recent times in the north with like
20+ people in rooms, fun rpts, and all this it makes me wonder why Im
playing in a place where I see maybe deal with 3 pcs a day of playing, and
most of the time this is strained role-play that is hostile or anger related,
when I could be in the north having fun in a much more easy and relaxed
environment....

Oh on another note, its almost made out like the north and south are two
different levels of a game. the North the obvious easier, fluffy level, the
south the hard one where you constantly replay and can never seem to
get past that one thing...

please.... come down and play in the sand with me im lonely... and I think
the south is dying....

[crymerci]

Wow, I hardly know what to say, except..I agree, on every point. This has sort of been percolating in my brain and I've just been waiting for things to even out more. But, they're not evening out.

I like the differences in culture and environment. However, I do agree that the North is -too- easy. Also, you can very easily survive without a clan which means there are all sorts of independents up there. Not always a bad thing, but too many of them and it detracts from group RP opportunities.

Maybe we could come up with some ideas to make it harder, but keep the same feel?

-The ruins.. a fair source of player wealth. I'd suggest more dangers, less loot, or more social stigma attached to them.
-Houses.. I was sad to see House Tenneshi be closed, even though I understand why it was. A one-House town doesn't have as much possibility for political turmoil, IMO.
-Crime.. it seems to be fairly nonexistant. Now, I'm not calling for a Northern 'rinth, but one would think that an association of thieves and assassins who view their work as an art form would be nice.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Dakkon Black]

It's true to a large extent, and I know how you feel. Nothing is more agrivating that bieng a guard for a non-existant entity. Two month in game with no pay.... sitting around at the taverns pretending like you have something to do. I know people have real lives but there is a bad ass need for some more higher level people in game down south. There real thing we need is overall more people. I don't think its fair to say we should have less in the north to balance it. That would be stupid, but personally i've introduced 4 new poeple to Arm in the last month. Makes me sick when I see 1600+ people on other that crapp ass #1 excuse for a mud on top mud sites. As much as everyone loves Noob's we were all there once too. Also with the poeple I've gotten into the game, I've taken them through the files personally and made an effort to see they understand whats good Rp and whats bad. All in all I think that with our current base of about 60 people around evening, is every one of you introduced a singe new person and helped them get into it we would be at 120 poeple by next month. Sure there would be allota corpses about for awhile but imagina a day when nobles actually had someone to pick on, and there really was mounting tensions and reasons to betray folk other than you were getting bored.

P.S. This is not to say I havent seen some outstandingly cool plats with good reason. But Arm needs a kick in the pants, and the new life that it brings could be a great bonus.

[Kankman]

Yeah I've been wanting to voice this for a while now. Its aggrivating that Allanak is so empty now. However, I've been dilligent. The south will survive if I have to make sure of it myself!

The T'zai Byn is on an upswing here, with a new active Sergeant. Borsail and Tor both have RECENT posts on the IC board about taking new members. The way I can see it those in leadership positions are -starved- for people so jobs aren't scarse at the moment.

In the south you get all the beautiful conflict in the world, none of this sing-songy holding of hands and dancing around the camp-fire. I mean damn.. Burn wood? Even a twig? Not a chance, that twig is going to make a two hundred coin toothpick for Lord Fancypants.

So come back all ye faithful, come flock to Allanak once more. I'm sure it was nice to try the north and all, but you will realize after you live for 20+ hours and still haven't been hassled by a templar that life is POINTLESS without the strife that those bastard nobles create in the south. I mean, we've got THREE open noble houses to join, the militia, the T'zai Byn and Salarr and Nenyuk and... damn.. Just come back south, Allanak misses ya. :oops:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll be back. Never fear....I'll be back, and in a way you could'nt imagine...I'll be back.

Ok. This is a dumbass suggestion, I guess, and I am sure you folks will agree that it is a dumbass suggestion. But why not infest the woods with more halflings? In fact, bring back the manti too, and put them in the eastern grasslands. I agree. Turn up the heat in the North. I was shocked to go hella ways into the outdoors up there and not be attacked. Sure, its nicer, but uhm...turn up the heat. As far as the money thing goes, keep it the same. If the north turns more dangerous than the south, but retains the same sid making potential, it will even things out a lot, I think.

Another Idea. Kill the Byn. Let mercenary bands form on their own. You Byners will be flaming me, but it's not that I don't like the Byn. I been in the Byn. I am just thinking the the newbies will have to get out into the world, and with competing merc bands, things might get kinda fun.

So here we go. More danger in the North than in the South, and no Byn.

And I will be back in Nak.

Venomz - the hated.

[WarriorPoet]

I agree 1000000000%

In the past couple month, I've told probably 20 people about Arm

Old D&D friends from years back, people in my computer class, and my old Creative Writing teacher. (Only told him today, and he is RIGHT NOW  perusing the docs!)

I for one, LOVE Nak. And I not so much hate tuluk, as prefer to
be less artsy fartsy and more grit and spit.

I heard a character once say "Tuluk? No, I wouldn't like to go. Likely I'd see all the pertiness and I'd just shit. Everywhere."

Never heard it said better than that, rough as it is.

I really don't understand why anyone would want it "easy". When I started my first northern PC, I was 3 days played before I came in even a little danger of getting my guts spilled in the dust. That isn't what I come to Armageddon for, at all.

I start a Southerner, and was IMMEDIATELY molested in the Bazaar. Harassed and robbed blind, but it was GREAAAAAT!!! I love the heart pounding, pumping out of emotes while praying your green-ass character will pull a feat of wonder out of his ass and slaughter something.

Much as I love reading about northern culture, and planning characters, I'll stick with the thrill ride of the South, lonely as it may be.

Play southern Characters! Fight the northern Pigs!

[creeper386]

I completely agree, and it's not a lack of pbase thats the problem. Getting more people to play won't help that much. The north is easy. WAY easy. And everyone seems to be up there now. I've altogether quit playing Armageddon because my character is in the south, I run into maybe three people, and never at once. It's always one person here one there.

Getting more players when the north is so attractive won't help because people well just go North. I like the feel of the city in the north, but over all it doesn't really feel right and I don't like playing up there, when there wasn't many people in the north it sucked because I couldn't find anybody to RP with often, but now, it just doesn't feel right because you can get help any where, getting a job is easy and if you don't want or can't find a job you can still survive fairly well.

Because of this the south as far as I can see has a nearly non existant pbase. And it really sucks. And really detracts from probably the greatest source of conflict RP in the game.

Creeper

[Kankman]

Alright, I know of at least two people who have a character in the south right now, but aren't actively playing because its "empty".

BOO ON YOU! :evil:

That's not how to fix things people. Allanak's pbase is on the upswing again and the best inspiration to play is an audience to interact with. By stopping playing you're only contributing to the problem.

The fact that I know of two people not playing their southerners means that there are probably at least 8 in the same situation, because I don't speak with very many people on an OOC basis. If you all started playing again, bingo, we got a stable pbase again and start reattracting players.

[creeper386]

Ooh, yeah. So there is going to be fifteen people online peak time in the South that I can't interact with because they are off on their own someplace locked in a clan compound or I'm locked in a clan compound. Even when Allanak had lots of people it was still difficult because there wasn't enough players. And with it seems the main pbase all in the north it makes it even worse.

Yes we need more players, but we don't need everyone playing in the North. I'd play in the north because I like social characters and social events and the artistic/social sides of societies, but I don't like the everyone get along feel I get up there. My last character showed dislike for southerners and I felt like he was getting funny looks from everyone, northern and southern alike. Show dislike for elves or tribals and I just got a wierd vibe. There just isn't any conflict it seems. Isn't conflict to get food or water. Racial conflict and disliking people from different places seems to be looked down upon, or in the very least avoided. Even with alot of people out in the wilderness looking to kill anyone that steps outside the walls there isn't really much danger or anything. It's just bland. Missing out on conflict is ALOT worse the missing out on the social side of society.

Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I think part of the problem is that the south has been made more difficult for people who want to leave the city, rather than the north being too easy.  

Sure you can mine the ruins, but you could do that two years ago and it didn't  depopulate the south (it was a tad more difficult back then since entering the ruins was officially illegal, but it wasn't hard to get in and out).  If you don't mind the critters, you can go out and get wood, which is useful in several crafts and impossible to get in the south.  There are critters that a new warrior or ranger can hunt.  Herbs are more abundant.   There are plenty of dangerous creatures, but you have a shot at surviving an attempt hunting alone or with just one other newbie.  All of this has been true for years.  There are more shopping opportunites than there used to be, and water is much less expensive than it used to be when you had to buy it in taverns at 10+ sid per cup.

The south has become less friendly.  Even a stonecrafter will have to put himself in mortal danger to collect materials.  The tarantulas, fire ants and those annoying little poisonous snakes are everywhere.  In the last couple years the gith have become much more of a menace.  Poison bearing NPCs are common, but unlike the north poison cures are still difficult to come by, so even a small snake can jump out and bite you once and end your life.  It simply isn't possible to take precautions that would make even a simple material gathering expedition relatively safe, much less a hunting trip.  If you live in 'nak you pretty much have to play a character that spends 90% of his time inside the city.  If you leave alone you die, and it is difficult to gather a large enough party to make leaving the city safe.  A scavenger that makes his money finding and selling stones or roots isn't going to be able to afford to hire the Byn.  Newbie merchants are in a similar fix, they can't yet afford to hire scavengers or protection, so if they want to be simple crafters they have to risk life and limb.  Even though as a player I understand the way things work more now, I find the south is harder to play in than it was when I started 2 years ago.  

The north isn't really getting easier, although there is a lot of interesting new stuff up there,  I think some of this was deliberate to lure players up north, because it was really sad when New Tuluk was put in and you had this giant city with only a few players.  But the south has been getting harder.  If you want to be a character that never leaves the city, either town will do.  If you like to do get out and do stuff, the north is merely dangerous while the south is suicidal.  It's a pain in the ass to be a common peasant in the south.

There are exceptions, it is a little easier to be a criminal in the south.  It is considerably easier to be a magicker; a friendly elementalist can probably get magickaly produced water and food from his fellow elementalists for free or cheap, and you can openly be a magicker without being killed.  If you can make your living without leaving the city or needing materials from outside, the south is fine.

I tried 3 or 4 southern based characters ('nak, 'rinth, and red storm) in the last few weeks.  One got gangbanged in the 'rinth despite the fact that she was a native 'rinther, dressed in rags and wasn't doing anything stupid like killing rats or NPCs.  Others fell to the hazards outside the city.  Spice hunting seems to have become exceptionally hazardous.  Eventually I ran out of southerner concepts, and moved back north.  I like to change starting locations, once I've used all the southern ones I try the northern ones.  My northern characters usually live a few weeks, at least a few days of play time.  Lately I've had trouble keeping southerners alive for even 24 hours, one died at 7 hours, another at 3.  Obviously I'm not cut out to play a southerner the way things are now.  Even when I plan on joining a clan with a certain character, I like to play the character as an independant for a few weeks first so that she doesn't totally suck at all her skills and so she has some non-virtual history.  If I can't keep a character alive for a few weeks, then I can't get to the point where I'm ready to join a clan.  Due to the north-south antagonism, it isn't practical to start a charcter in the north and then join a southern clan when I'm ready to clan up.  Previously I've had a northern character decide to join the Byn, but now there is no reason to travel south when you can join the northern branch of the byn.  Most of southern noble houses and militia are only interested in pure humans, dwarves or half-giants that were born in Allanak.  Virtually the only reason a northerner would go south these days is if he was facing the death penalty for being a magicker or traitor in the north.

The south has gotten "harsh" enough to make it all but unplayable for certain character types.  The north is harsh, but not unplayable.

More southern creatures equivilent to gurth, vestrics, gimpka rats and greth would make it possible for new hunters to make a go of it in the south.  Currently the only "easy" creatures in the south are the jozhals (which are often surrounded by scrabs, tarantulas and gith) or rats in the 'rinth.  The little snakes aren't too hard to kill, but you're likely to wind up dead from the poison.  Currently new hunters and crafters don't have much to work with.  Something not too hard to kill, that would occasionally provide arrow-shaft material would be nice for the fletchers since branches aren't available.  Thinning out the big predators a little would help too, the deserts around Allanak feel downright crowded these days.

I'm rambling, so I think I'll go get some sleep.

Angela Christine

[Delirium]

What AC said. Totally.

I'll mention that I've played Northerners almost religiously, but a character of mine went south for a while, and well, I -loved- Allanak. It was so dark, so gritty, so.. dangerous! It was great! However, it WAS hard to survive (joining a clan was not an option) even with a 28+ day ranger. Scrab still tore her up from time to time, beetles were generally suicide, and forget tarantulas. There does need to be a few resources down south to make it -possible- to live independantly.

[creeper386]

Well. Those things that were stuck in to lure people up certainly worked. I don't think it's just that though. I think it's just now started to get acrossed how easy it is, and also now with some acctual RP up there everyones gone. I've played in the south since I've started and the outside was just as deadly as it was now, still people played in the south and even with out hunting and doing what not. Even had a ranger down there that was doing really good without hunting a thing.

The deserts have always been needed to be thinned but the pbase shift is very recent and almost over night everyone was gone. I don't think anything major has been done to make a change like that except the north. I acctually played a character south, then went north, and it was alright up there, enough people to RP same with when I was in the south. Had that character for a couple weeks went back south and there was a good amount of people, then a week or two playing him, and everyone ended up basically being gone. That was with in the last month. Although I've been playing abit later when I do log on it's not that much later then before and before I could always find people. It's be VERY recent that the south was depopulated, although there must be more people because I ran into a fair group late this night, it's probably not a decent pbase that the south needs.


Creeper who just doesn't know but is really frustrating, and logging in just to sit around and do nothing doesn't help get people to play.

[Callisto]

AC hit the nail on the head.

The north isn't easy and ripe with resources, the south is just near impossible and almost completely barren. The north doesn't need to be made more difficult, the south just needs to tone back down to a reasonable level.

Just my opinion.

[Quirk]

I'd agree with AC. The issue has everything to do with the almost ridiculous harshness of the Southern wilderness and the Rinth. The Rinth was never buzzing with PCs any time I was there, but what rumours I've heard seem to suggest that it's highly improbable that a new character will survive long there. And who dares the incredibly dangerous southern wilds?

To sum up - for different classes:

Merchants: Crafting in the North, with a greater range of materials available for free, blows away the South.

Rangers: Wilderness is far more survivable in the North.

Warriors: South is still an option, but you won't be hunting, and if you've a crafting subclass - see Merchant.

Thiefly types: South is preferable, but the dangers of the Rinth make it unlikely that a thiefly type who uses their thiefly skills and flees there often will live long and prosper.

Magickers: Can be open in the South, but if you don't like the restrictions and limited social vista of the gemmer, the secret magicker is far better off in the North where he or she is likely to be able to survive outside the gates.

I see enough character churn in the North not to jump to the conclusion that it's "too easy" to survive there. I would like to see more politics up there, and more conflict, but as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with the Northern wilds as things are. My next character will likely be a Southerner, but from all I've heard lately I wouldn't be surprised if an early death visited him, and as I tend to rotate through the starting locations, I probably wouldn't be back in 'Nak for a couple more characters, which might be some time. I suspect probably most people do this, and if the 'Nak environs are too quick to kill people off then their playerbase cannot help but drop. I think this is one of the main issues behind the depopulation of the southern hunters.

So... yeah. My recommendations: Make obsidian plentiful and easy to acquire in the South, give them the advantages they should have, tone down the wilds and Rinth (well, I believe both of these are already being looked at; may even be fully fixed already and we'll be seeing the results in time). Open another Northern noble house, even if it's not Tenneshi, and get some rivalries going. Make the North more criminal friendly so the city slickers have some dangers to worry about.

Quirk

[rnix]

I also Agree with Ac. Its hard for more then other types of characters to get out and do what their trade allows them to do in the south, I'm not saying its impossible yeah there are ways to get around them but with great difficulties and relience on others. But the comment about the 'rinth being an unlivable place, I believe that people going into there to die and also for curiosity, AND if you'd like to play a character there read up on the documents and also under the announcemeant bored, Zagren has posted the updates coming in from a player on what the rinth is really all about. Tells you what to expect what would be smart to be doing to live there, and Also gets the message out on the type of mind frame characters who go about there- A lot of updates and changes have been made just for all you to know:) Well the idea isn't totally a bad one either on the south i'm interested to see how drasctically things change thats all:)

[deviant storm]

I agree with AC.

When I first started playing Arm, some of us could and did go out just outside Allanak to forage stones. At the time, it was still dangerous, but more from PCs than from NPCs. It isn't even attemptable anymore.

It wasn't so long ago I went out with characters alone in the south. One died when she was gangbanged by three tarantulas, all of them using bash so there was no chance to flee. And this was no new pc, either. Another got chased by various very bad creatures as she traveled to and from Red Storm. Before a gith got her.

I'd like to see some way for people to make a living in the south that wasn't based on joining a house or clan. The only way to survive in the south is getting employment quickly.

Yeah, I know, harsh, realistic. But maybe too much so?

Up north...I disagree with Jenred. It's not "fluffy". There are considerable dangers. And there's a lot of competition for crafters, so while you might get quite a lot for a chest (not nearly as much as Jenred thinks, unfortunately) there are several other people selling chests. And the shops only buy so many.

I think the north is fine. It's a blast to play. Something just needs to be done to make Allanak equally playable, while not messing with its character. After all, it is the home of the Dragon.

[Anonymous]

Where the hell were all you people when Halaster made a poll about whether or not things were too rough in the south?

I've completely given up on playing a solo outdoors human, dwarf or half-elf in the south.

Another thing that negatively affects play in the south is travel upon the north road.  Call me a whiny ass bitch if you want, but I believe that making it that dangerous to travel the north road leads to less people bothering to make the trip down.

Playing a solo PC in the north is easier than in 'nak, but that's always been the case.

The one thing that has made the north too easy is the proximity of rooms where you can 'use axe' to chop down a tree to the NPC-guarded gates.

It used to be that you had to two or three times further from the gates to get logs and branches, now you are just a jump away from guards when you do your lumberjacking.

As far as the south, I've always felt like the changes, while certainly well-intentioned, were too many at a sudden time.  The return of desert tarantulas, always-grouped fire ants, IMHO buffed gith and more snakes seemed to all happen in the same month or so just about when health regen was nerfed.

I don't think any one of those things was a bad idea in the slightest, and am appreciative of the effort.  But when they were done at relatively the same time it was a shock to me.

And I never understood why.  Even before those changes I would have thought of keeping a solo hunter/warrior alive outside of 'nak would be a real challenge.

[Twilight]

I really haven't had that much more trouble keeping a character alive than I would in the Northlands.  Of course, I've been playing the run away and live, rather than fight a little then run away and live type characters.  There are vast tracts of desert in the southlands that are hardly populated at all.  As an overall design issue though, I would like to point out a few things.

There seems to be a concentration of NPCs around Allanak itself.  I'd like to see at least the general starting locations of agressive NPCs moved further away from Allanak.  As it is, after a reboot, lots of times it seems like it goes from very few aggressive NPCs around Nak to what seems like a high concentration of them.

Those damn snakes.  These are my number three most feared Southlands wilderness NPCs, right after mek and Silt Horrors.  Yep, I fear them more than packs of fire beetles and gith, which in imho is just wrong.  Perhaps there could be less of these critters, or something changed to make them down around number 10 or 11 most feared NPCs.

The fields, full of tarantulas and other mean nasties.  If I remember right, these are fields fenced in and with tracts of land in between, but they are populated by a ton of VNPC slaves and soldiers.  While I can appreciate that a tarantula might get hungry every now and again and a slave is probably pretty tasty, you would think the soldiers would keep the area clear of fairly big, mean nasties who like to eat slaves.  Or, at least, big mean nasties who might mistake a soldier for a slave.


If we had more travel between North and South, maybe it wouldn't matter so much where characters would start, or at least it might balance out a bit.  Someone needs to start doing wagon runs!

[Olafson]

Of course, the real reason the North is attracting more players than the south is that my current character is in the north and I know you all just love playing with my characters.

I have played Arm since 1994 and it has always been a problem.  The circle continues.  At one time, Tuluk seemed more popular, then Allanak, back to Tuluk, etc.  One thing I can suggest, and I try to do this myself, is to constantly change where it is you have based your characters.

So your latest character was in Allanak, next try Tuluk, try the rinth after, finally Luir's.  Desert elf?  Go ahead.  Try not to get into ruts where you keep playing the same character over and over again who interacts with the same people.  Each of these areas have a lot to offer.  Try playing in places where you don't know where everything is.  Go in fresh.

I have never felt so lost as I did when I started my current character.  There was a lot of new information in the north and my latest Naki character had lived a fair amount of time so I had lost touch with it.  I really enjoyed it.  I think I still prefer the Naki rinth to any other place to play, but I still go sometimes years without playing a character based from there.  Challenge yourself to try new places.

You have lost your last three characters to beasts outside of Nak?  Why are you still playing there?  It ain't working, try something fresh.  I have not had much experience with the area outside of Nak, my last fella there basically never left except on two or three occassions to travel to Red Storm (never even had the ride skill).  I do remember battling a tarantula who I had to run from with a well experienced warrior, so maybe there is something there.  But in the north, what about the tembo's?  The halflings?  Bahamet?  Want a poisonous animal?  Try the cilops.  My current char has again never left the city, but from my earlier experiences, this can't be much different.

Anyways, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.  If people changed their roles often, changed their locations with each new character, these trends will not be as pronounced.  Either way, in a few months people will once more complain about no one in Tuluk (unless my character still lives of course).

Olafson

[Angela Christine]

If it is any consolation, I think to a certain extent it is a temporary problem.  When New Tuluk was first put in it was a vast maze of (mostly) empty streets; this was a big turn off.  Last fall the land around the city was good, but the city itself was was bothersome.  In just the last few months, since January or so, things seem to have reached critical mass.  Moving the vineyard shops to the merchant quarter and tribal market has made doing your essential shopping a little easier.  There are now enough NPCs to make the city feel like a populated city rather than a bleak maze.  With the bardic circles, templars and nobles being active, the north now supports social RP as easily as lone rangers.  Naturally, people want to go have a look.  Even if they are enjoying the "new" area, they will likely play characters in other areas as well, once the novelty wears off.

It's like when you get that first dot of karma, and see desert elf on your list.  Most people try playing a desert elf, and it's cool to be able to run around all the time.  But from what I've seen, most people seem to go back to playing non-karma races . . . at least part of the time.  Some folks find d-elf roleplay to be the perfect flavor, but others prefer to hang in the cities or play races that can make friends outside their tribe.  Playing an elf from a virtual tribe is lonely.

I like the north, but I don't want to make every character a northerner.  I prefer to rotate through the starting locations.  The next time a <censored> attacks Tuluk a bunch of PCs will die, and likely a bunch of new PCs will be born in the south.

Honestly, the single most attractive thing I've found in the north is a shop that sometimes sells poison cures.  I think it is a PC run shop, selling PC made tablets, so the number available fluxuates.  The availability of affordable tablets makes it worthwhile to risk traveling to areas in the north that have poisonous NPCs (and there are plenty) since it is possible to survive the trip and make a profit even if you need to eat a couple tablets.  In the south there seem to be fewer poisonous creatures, but cures for the most common NPC poisons seem almost impossible to get and, due to supply and demand, prohibitively expensive when you do find them.  Nobles, Templars and other high-profile people that are likely to be attacked by assassins can afford to keep tablets on hand.  On the other hand the commoners, who are in little danger of assassination but considerable danger from poisonous animals, are out of luck.

Still, I think some people will return to the south once they have seen all there is to see in the north.

Angela Christine

[marko]

I agree with Olafson, for as long as I've played Armageddon there has been a cyclical population shift from one end of the world to the other.  While these shifts are sometimes precipitated by game changes, it is often a perception shift.

The north is thriving right now - and yet, I've managed to walk around up there when there are 60 players online and see no one in any of the major taverns.  Perhaps I should be drawing the conclusion that there's no one there?

No, the reality is that there is still a significant player base in the South and I'd suspect it is roughly equiv to the north.  The South has always felt more 'gritty' and it should remain as such.  I do agree about the recent additions of more aggressive, teaming, dangerous critters around Allanak - life has become that much more difficult.

Still, let us not forget the wandering bahamets who enjoy strolling by the gates of Tuluk - the feral halflings, the tembos, the cilops, etc.  I think part of the current situation is that the north has a few 'guardian' PCs who clear these beasts and make it a safer place.  

There are some wonderful PCs in the North and they tend to draw others to them.  This, in turn, causes a chain reaction and more people go to the North to experience the interactions, the subtleties of politics, and the sounds of the bards.  In time these chars will die and will probably restart in Allanak - and we'll see a shift back to Allanak.

[krelin]

Some proposed solutions:

Tone down the Labyrinth.  If you were born in the 'rinth, you probably shouldn't have to worry about getting attacked by natives there ever, on either side, unless you've made an enemy unwisely.

Lower the cost of water, slightly.  Fourty 'sid for a skin is a lot.

Lower the cost of flour, grain products, slightly (maybe 8 'sid for a sack of flour).  Allanak has farms, Tuluk doesn't.  Cheaper travel cakes would help a lot.  This might also translate to cheaper alcohol, if you're feeling generous.

Close the northern Byn compound.  A variety of reasons support this, but in general I think a) it isn't necessary for Tuluk -- other clans provide similar RP/training and "get acquanted" type services, as well as the IC functionalities of the Byn.  b) The lost of an active Byn population in 'Nak WILL eventually lead to a significantly reduced flow of combat-type PCs into the noble and merchant houses there.

Find IC ways of adding resources to 'Nak.  I think it would be reasonable to expect a raw-materials shop in 'Nak to carry things like raw lumber, for example (even if the costs were high, it would still allow newbie merchants, for example, to experiment with those materials).  There should be -a lot- of good, safe-ish places in 'Nak to find stones.

Tone down the wastes outside Allanak very slightly...  push the gith population back a tad, chill the beetles and tarantulas out.  Offer some lower-end bugs and reptiles for killing and skinning (and eating).

It might be nice to see just a -wee- bit more political intrigue (and seamy underbelly) in Tuluk.  I think this would make the people living "happily ever after" within the walls just a little bit more shivery when a templar walks in.  Not -too- much though...  I like the flavor there a lot.

*plink plink*

[Plazgoth]

I agree that the problem is cyclical. In my opinion there is no need to tone down anything anywhere. If anything make things harsher up north. A lot of the changes that people are complaining about have come about from IC plots and motivations. When I first started playing Arm back in 97 things were very balanced between Nak and Tuluk, or so they seemed to me. Then Tuluk fell and died down, making Nak a hot spot, now Tuluk has the upper hand, but I think things will change. I am sure the "wizards of oz" who know and watch everything from behind the curtain strive for a balance and are constantly thinking how to achieve it and try new things. In summary, toning down the South/Rinth is not a good solution, removing the Byn from an OOC perspective is a bad idea as well, my suggestion is let time correct the problem. In the mean time think about the real world...what makes so many Arabs stay in the harsh desert environment and not move to the greener pastures of the US or other places that are easier to live in.

When I first started playing seriously, more than a year ago, there was the complain that there was no one in the North. I still played there. Died a few times. I played in the south when it was considered to have most of the p-base and then came back home. There was still not many people but I said, if I play here, they will come. And now they are here.

Nothing has gotten any easier in the north in the last year.
From my perspective, several deadly beasts have been moved closer to thwart adventurerer. Many other beasts have been made more dangerous. Lots of people die. At least three or four a day it seems sometimes. People think its easier and tend to rang out further and further..til its too far.

There is no conflict in the north? Well whoever says that. Perhaps you are not helping to bring the conflict. I know that Every day someone goes onto the to-kill list of my PC. There is a lot of killing and conflict but the bodies are not often all piled outside the sun king's sanctuary for everyone to gawk at. The way I see it, in Tuluk everyone has on a happy face, but inside they are plotting your death. (with a smile and a song). If they are not, I am. All I know is there is a very high character turn over rate in Tuluk. Sure there are those hideously old characters running about, but so many are new that it can't be that easy.

I started playing in the north when it wasn't fashionable to do so. So I will not kill myself and run to the south for no good reason.

P.S. South is tough for loners. Get some friends. Don't have to be a clan. An unofficial clan is tough but you can kick some ass.

People keep bringing up that the north -isnt- too easy, its just the South is
too hard. Well I agree that say both places were empty of PCs, the north
would be a good deal difficult, and the south impossible.

But then you throw in PCs, tons of freelance rangers and warriors, byn
groups, house guards, desert elf travellers, militia, -then- it starts getting
easier. The roads are cleared due to constant travel, making areas ripe
with resources easy to get to. There is actually a REASON to make the
roads safe up north. No point to clear the western and eastern roads in the
south because... where would you go?

In the south?
head west to collect stones that make things that no one will buy? Gather
salt crystals to the east and sell them to people? maybe spice?
The shells and animal pieces are a sorry comparison to the north too.

In the north?
Wood, useful weapon components, feathers, plants, rope-components,
jewelry pieces, stuff from the ruins, collect water from the multitude of
holes, better quality and variety of rocks, FOOD THAT GROWS NATURALLY
a feat in its self... all this becomes possible EASILY due to the fact that
there is an active fighter base up there.
Even the skins and shells are fantastic in comparsion. tembo, inix, gurth,
duskhorn, bahamet... all these could make a hunter rich, while still a little
difficult, scrab just dont compare.

Like picture Allanak, then put a ripe-grassy area on its easternside that
doesnt tire or drain you of hunger and thirst as easy, fill it with forageable
food, animals that are actually worth something, and the occassional rare
danger (cilops and bahamets), what do you have? The north.

Now picture Tuluk, remove everything of value but stones from around it.
Replace gurth, vestric, gimpka rats, skeet, stilt lizards, and all other weak
little animals away with mass portions of hard and deadly grouped beasts,
remove all natural water sources, and what do you have? The south.

Its an obvious switch, thats just toooo bold. The south's main resources,
stone and sand arnt valuable to the people. No one buys stone crafted
goods, even the stones themselves arnt bought by the shopkeeper any
more. A jewelry crafter would suceed much better in the north with cheap
actually forageable components... its just sad its so obviously pampering
up there. Now I know its the north, and the climate, everything is different
but the south isnt Hell. There wouldnt be a metropolis of hundreds of
thousands of people if it was so hard to survive in.

Anyways... thanks for the agreement at least everyone, but I think the
point got skewered into the "The north is fine, the south is too hard."
which isnt what I meant at all. The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.