The south...

[Callisto]

The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.

Keep your snide remarks and misrepresentations of the Four Lands to yourself, Jenred. If you want to throw a tantrum, do so without ripping on someone elses hard work.

Have a nice day.

[John]

Now the only problem is people logging in, looking around, realizing its Nekrete, and logging out.

I always did find that phenomenon amazing. Some of my best times in the Byn were cleaning the toilets. I even got stuck in the toilet and had to wait for someone to get me out  :roll:

[Lazloth]

Then the remodeling came and it turned Tuluk into Allanak, only like you said easier. That is why everyone if flocking there, because it is Allanak only easier.

What the hell are you talking about?  How do the two city-states resemble each other, pray tell?  If you're going to spout nonsense, at least make some sort of attempt at an argument, like Jenred.

[LoD]

I figured I'd throw in my own opinion on this thread as it seems to be getting a lot of attention from both players and Imms alike.

There are a lot of opinions being tossed around, so I will try and address each of these in turn.  I apologize if I miss a few of them or take something out of context as many of the same things are being said by different people:

...Allanak pbase is being sapped by the similar northern environment that is the same big-cityish feel, thats easier to make your way in, with a more laxxed general feel of the area.

I believe you are witnessing three different factors coming into play while making this observation.  Those three factors (as I see them) are:

New Tuluk

Tuluk is a growing and thriving part of the world right now.  It is littered with opportunity, action, excitement and people running about every which way trying to get a piece of the pie and see everything.  Of course the 'new north' breeds a certain curiosity in players who have spent a lot of time playing southland characters while the north remained a center of turmoil and sparse activity.

Growth

Many people feel that the northlands are 'too lax' on their RP.  That everyone seems to be buddy-buddy with one another.  This is simply not true.  I believe what people are witnessing is a fledgling community beginning to get on its feet and a vastly different approach to justice than the southlands.  The Iron Fist of Doom is not the preferred method of dispensing His justice and there are still plenty of problems breaking out here and there.  The basic reason for everyone "seemingly" getting along is that the north is still finding its new identity.  Lines are being drawn.  No one's really sure what's going on and the government is pretty loose.  There isn't much crime because food is abundant, much of the population are game hunters and the city is rebuilding, not decaying like Allanak.

Leadership

Players go where the fun is.  Fun is usually created by leader PC's that manage clans and offer jobs, RP and provide interaction between other parts of the world.  When the leadership of certain clans begins to dwindle, so does the playerbase.  The clans that should be doing the bulk of the newbie hiring (Salarr, Kadius, Kurac and Byn) go through slumps like everyone else and the playerbase obviously suffers as a result of this.  The noble houses HAVE to be picky because of IC concerns and their commitment to being pinned inside the city 90% of the time, but the Merchant Houses and T'zai-Byn have GREAT amounts of opportunity to employ PC's, give them something to do and involve them in RP that takes them out of the city into interesting environments.  The problem is that you need practiced, capable, patient and talented PC's to handle these roles, which you don't always have.  This leads to the playerbase going where it CAN survive without the aid of these leaders.

Rangers can live without fear, needing only forage for food.

I don't know who came up with THIS idea, but as someone who has played in the northlands for a few months - there aren't more than a handful of independant hunters that I've seen last more than RL month.  People die in the northlands VERY easily and readily.  If you believe otherwise, you need to play up there a little more and criticize it a bit less.  Yes, for someone who has a good grasp on things and has played the game for awhile, you can make your way about much more easily in the northlands than the southlands, but it doesn't seem to be -that- much more friendly to new players in the long run.

In conclusion I pray it will cycle out, but I really dont see how it will.

Well, I have seen it cycle just within the lifetime of my present PC.  When I was playing in Allanak, the population was thriving with both leaders and followers alike.  The 'unbalanced north' was the same as it is today, but that didn't seem to make a big difference.  What is so different now?  I think that even taking away a handful of players in top positions in the 'high profile' clans mentioned previously can really hurt the playerbase.  When the T'zai-Byn slows to a crawl and the Merchant Houses aren't very active, it doesn't really help the newbies whom enter the game and are referred to these clans as good places to start.

How To Fix the Problem

I'm not saying I have all the answers and there are many others whom have made good suggestions that I may list again.  I believe that the largest problem for new players is the harshness of the south immediately out of the gates.  I have no problem with a few bad things prowling around in the distance.  The swarms of scrab, beetles, spiders and gith, however, are more than capable of ripping a PC to shreds.  It doesn't give a new player much of a chance.  Here are my suggestions:

Redistribution of Southern Creatures

As AC suggested, I believe they more powerful and deadly of the creatures about Allanak need to be pushed back a good ten-twenty rooms or so in each direction (as possible) to allow a small area of activity for local crafters, hunters and the like.  

Going hand in hand with this addition would be the creation and application of new plant life and small game about the city.  These small game would live between the city and the larger game of the deep desert.  Big game doesn't live near the cities because the soldiers and local VNPC hunters would likely patrol, so I think it makes perfect sense for the more dangerous game to be in the remote areas.  This would mirror the general format of the north and allow hunters and crafters a bit of a berth to ply their craft and learn without death being their first and last instructor.

At any rate, I believe that the cycle favors and follows the environment for RP, things to do and interaction - not the coded benefits of the north over the south.  I do believe a slight tweak to the immediate area about Allanak would go a long ways to help.  The addition of plant life, forageable rooms and small game to hunt would provide a lot of relief for newer players.  Placing the larger and more dangerous game further from the city would still retain the danger of travelling alone, but it would allow new players the chance to make a few mistakes and learn without dying in 5 seconds.

My own take on most of the issues at stake.

-LoD

[Swordsman]

I think Allanak-Tuluk is just cycling (as it always has for as long as I've played here), and Bakha got it right when he said that there're probably more people in Tuluk right now simply because it is 'new'-ish. Like a lot of things, I think north-south PC population will balance out on its own. (And if it doesn't, I'm sure the imms will come up with something to help it along.)

I haven't played in the southern desert for a while now, but the last time I was there, the impression was 'crowded' (dangerous, too, but very crowded). While on a trip, there was a point where there was a group of hostile NPCs in every direction at the same time. One of the things I liked to do was just enjoy the emptiness of the desert around Allanak. A desert that's crowded with NPCs just doesn't feel like a desert to me. Although it was a while ago, from people's posts it sounds like the desert there is still pretty crowded.

Swordsman

[Tlaloc]

Just to add more confusion to the mess, I was idly checking tonight occasionally, and it seems both Tuluk and Allanak both have (during the times I checked it) roughly an exactly equal playerbase, split down the middle. There were a few more in Tuluk, early on, but the population in Allanak rose slightly, to even it out.

This was by no means a scientific, accurate study, but just what I've parused over the evening.

Maybe, part of whats happening, is that instead of having 90% of the playerbase all holed up into one city-state, you now have more of a an even split? So where before you had 45 people logged in, and 30 of them were in Allanak, now you get 15 in Allanak, 15 in Tuluk, and 15 spread through the rest of the world.

Just a thought

[The Lonely Hunter]

Short and to the point.
Quick fix, another war, level a city. =)

[John]

Just thank god that we now have a playerbase of 70 instead of a playerbase of 30 like 8months ago  :shock:

[Delirium]

Start up a new and very active raider clan up north.

I'd be glad too.  :twisted:

I'd add something coherent and helpful, but I think I'll do that at a later date when I'm actually awake. As I stated in my previous post, though, I've played in the North and South and loved both.. it's just much harder to be an independant in the South. That's pretty much all it boils down to.

[marko]

Perception is everything - I suspected, as Tlaloc indicated, that the split is more even than it appears.  But, I suspect as well that the PCs online in both places weren't necessarily in public areas.  I also suspect that many 'old players' (who, argueably play some of the more respected and recognized characters) are currently in the North - reinforcing from an OOC view that "everyone" is in the North.

That said, I agree with the idea of moving the more dangerous creatures further away from Allanak and introducing a variety of new flora and fauna that is easier.  From an ecological view - this makes sense since there would be patrols keeping the larger creatures at bay which, in turn, would allow the smaller 'prey' type creatures to flourish (even with humanoids hunting them regularly).  

The North is well balanced in my view.  I'm currently in the north and I've seen since the start of my char a significant number of deaths - roughly equiv to those I would have seen if I were in Allanak a couple of years ago.  This implies that while it is possible to survive and you can - it is not a guarantee.  

If there is a desire to 'tweak' the north - the introduction of a new moderately skilled (large gortok level) creature who is aggressive would probably work.

[spawnloser]

Since everything has been said multiple times by multiple people, I figured I'd just chime in with this:

Okay, I don't know what you're all talking about...but I am playing a merchant in the south and have no problems with materials.

[Bestatte]

I saw very little intrigue when I was up in the North, where I played a single PC for a period of a few weeks. What politics existed, seemed focused in very narrow areas and it was nearly impossible to get involved in the plotlines unless you forced yourself into them.

As someone who thrives on intrigue and cut-throat politics, I found the northlands extremely lacking. And now with the discontinuation of Tenneshi as a clan for PCs, I imagine the only excitement you'll find within the city walls is practicing for the next bardfest.

This is purely my opinion, based solely on my limited observations and my own personal approach to roleplay. I'm sure there are plenty of things to keep players busy in the north, but I didn't find enough of it to keep me entertained, short of practicing my character's skills by herself or with a very select few others.

I would like to see both Winrothol and Tenneshi thrive, and add at least one more noble house to the fray to get the politics moving again. Nothing shakes up a population more than finding out which house is fucking with which other house, and why, and who is involved, and how they're doing it...and how YOU can be part of it too.

[Angela Christine]

*Economy, as I stated above, obviously the north's econonmy
SHOULD be wealthier then the south... but its getting a bit out of hand. The
items you'd think would be available in the south... jade, obsidian, silk,
wider variety of stone then marble and jasper, spice, gems, etc, all arnt
there. Obsidian predominantly comes from the north nowadays, along with
jade, and all types of other goods. The south almost literally has nothing
to offer the north that can be scrounged by the common person. Of course
you can sell goods from npc merchants... but what sense does this make:
Buying an obsidian sword from Salaar in the south and selling it to salaar
in the north, or vice versa: Buying a wooden shield from Salaar in the
north and selling it to salaar in the south. Its the same company. Thats
like buying a diamond ring from someone in New York, then selling it back
to that person in LA for an extremely raised price.

I'd think it would be more like buying it from a jewlery shop in LA, and then selling it to another franchise of the same chain in Ankorage, Alaska.  It is worth more in Alaska because it is a pain in the ass to ship anything to Alaska.  The Alaskan franchise will be able to demand a higher price from the customer.  Likewise, while you are up in Alaska you might pick up some native soapstone and tusk carvings cheap, and then sell them to a fancy boutique down in LA for more than you paid, because "authentic innuit (eskimo) carvings" are rare outside of the north.

It isn't too hard to survive several trips as an independant dune trader, but they always get me in the end.   :cry:  When an independant trader moves the goods, they do it with absolutely no risk to the merchant house.  When the merchant house moves the goods themselves, there is always some risk and expense: they have to maintain a wagon (keep it oiled and repaired), feed the beasts that pull the wagon and carry the outriders, train and pay the guards that guard the cargo, pay the merchants that oversee the operation, etc.  And there is a significant danger that some or all of those resources, plus the cargo itself, will be damaged or lost.  The independant trader pays retail (or close to it) when he picks up the cargo, and if he dies or is robbed the the trader eats the cost rather than the house.  Now for PCs, the situation seems a little different since wagons, mounts and the NPC guards require no PC maintenance, and the journey can usually be completed in a single day.  But ICly it is a long and dangrous trip.  I've found with 1 or 2 kanks once I cover my expenses (food, water, bandages, stabling, etc. for the trip) I can usually make 100-200 sid profit on a north-south trading trip.  It seems like plenty, but most of that will be re-invested in stock for the next trip.  How much would they have to pay mercenaries to move the cargo?  Probably at least as much as the independant trader makes, and they would risk losing everything if something happened to ther mercenaries.


A large wooden item may sell in a shop for 90 coins in the north and 500 in the south, but that souther merchant doesn't pay his independant suppliers 500, closer to 130, so the profit isn't unreasonable.  A good haggler can make the profit margin larger, but my impression is that because of the danger of the journey most traders are not of the Merchant guild - you don't really need to be able to craft anything to be a trader, but you do need to be able to survive trips accross the known world.

Anyway, back to the south.  If you go out to the dunes to forage for rocks you'll come up with a lot of sandstone and a few other items.  This makes it seem like there is nothing of value in the south to forage for.  Not true!  There are places very near Allanak where more valuable stones, including obsidian and alabaster, can be found.  I can't tell you where, of course, but I just thought I'd spread a little hope.  

AC

[vroy]

Though I've never played in the North, going from people's description, I kinda like the contrast between North and South: The North is richer in flora and fauna and therefore it may be easier to operate independently--the South is harsher and more barren requiring people to band together to survive.  

This contrast could create very different views of life and ways of interacting--one would guess that intraclan cohesion would be very strong in the South with great importance placed on loyalty.  In the North, people would place more importance on individual expression.

Anyway, if there is a problem (and it sounds like there may not be one) here are my suggestions for getting more people South:

*introduce some new crimes in the North that are punishable by exile (I don't think it should be impossibly difficult to travel between North and South.  At least there should be a monthly caravan run where people can pay or work as a guard to make it safely from one area to another.)

*introduce some new resources in the South to lure people (I liked the spice idea, perhaps rubies, garnets, carnelian or something more exotic like sequins could be introduced)

*start an Academy of Medicine in the South to attract people and sell poison cures (I had a PC once that had this goal, but he died   )

[Gar]

I'm a longtime northerner who recently was introduced to the south for several months.  I'd say that the south is way too tough for a new player, I cannot even imagine it unless you were a thief or magiker.  Forget being a ranger or warrior, it would be near impossible to survive.  I came south with a very experienced character and house affiliations.  Even then, exploring outside the city was very harrowing.  

In my opinion, the south should be toned down a little and needs some more rewarding things to afford a PC a living.  The north is just about right and shouldn't be changed.

[spawnloser]

I'd say that the south is way too tough for a new player, I cannot even imagine it unless you were a thief or magiker.  Forget being a ranger or warrior, it would be near impossible to survive.  I came south with a very experienced character and house affiliations.  Even then, exploring outside the city was very harrowing.

You could just never leave the city.

[X-D]

HHhhmmm, It has been around a year since I have had a southern char, but I can say that it is(or was a year ago) quite possible for even a lone ranger/warrior to survive there outside the cities....but not one with less then around 5 days playing time I think, nor a newbie player....though I still think that a new player should start the first few charecters in Allanak

[SykotikGith]

As a person who has been playing in the North for several months now, I have a couple of things to say. I play a city-based character, so I'm not going to comment on the hunting and outside danger part of the discussion, I don't really know it. However, as far as politics go, it is there, -if- you know where to look, and you don't have to look that hard.

Before Tenneshi was closed, there was conflict between Tenneshi and Winrothol, as there should be. However, just because there are no Tenneshi PC's anymore, doesn't mean that all of the political intrigue is gone. It is there, and it is easy to get involved in. Believe me...the plotlines exist, but more often than not (IMO), they are player created, not IMM-run, at least until -after- they are started.

As far as the 'flavor' of the North. Someone, Jenred, I believe called the North "Happy Fun Land." It isn't. However, the relationships that people have in the North differ greatly from that found in the South. Allanak is a city ruled by fear, this is common knowledge. Tektolnes and his Templars are in charge, and they don't let anyone forget it. The nobles are much the same, when a person has complete control over your life, you tend to do whatever you can to obey them. Tuluk on the other hand, as many have said, is recently freed from the South. As far as I know, everything I'm saying can be pulled from the docs, so I don't think this is getting too IC, if it is, smack me down.    All the people in the North:  Templar, Noble, Commoner, all had to join together to rid themselves of their Allanaki oppressors. The Nobles were then able to come out of hiding, and the Templarate was able to rebuild. Then, to add to that feeling of camaraderie and brotherhood, everyone continued working together to rebuild the city...and that is still going on. The rule in Tuluk is one of respect and, while maybe not love, it certainly isn't fear. Nobles are still Nobles, but you tend to view them differently when you, or your parents helped keep them alive.

Allright, let me see...other points...Oh! The Byn. I am in agreement with those who say the Byn shouldn't be in the North, and I don't know how it was allowed. As far as I'm concerned, it should never have happened, but that too, is just my opinion.

I think that just about covers it for me, and while yes, I am playing in the North now, and know how to think like one...Allanak will always be home to me. That is where I got my start, and I intend to return eventually.

[Dyrinis]

Allanak & its surroundings have been made MUCH less harsh and MUCH more rewarding in the last few months.  I suggest you take another look.

Dyrinis

[Shinigami]

MUCH less harsh

*sniffles*

You say it like it's a good thing...

[krelin]

Don't be too sad, Shinigami....  you still have to be on your toes...  but at least there's a reason to go outside the gates, and it's not -instant- suicide now.    I'm pretty happy with the changes.

[Dan]

One of those infamous gith once disarmed my weapon "UP"... had a hell of a time after that since it didn't come back down.

I've heard that it lands in a nearby room... I never had time to check.

I enjoy the new code related to deposits and things very much so. It makes it neat, and miner roles are alot more played out and stuff.
And not seeing 40 scrab bodies at the gates is also reassuring.

[Dakkon Black]

I hope the south is not toned down an inch, if even perhaps we can get some tougher creatures in place down here please.

Heh, allright reasons are that the south an unhappy place like stated before its a freekin desert, and its tough. I love it tough and I hope it never goes softer. North is for softness. gooooo south!

[God]

Just because a few hardass PC warriors died doesn't mean that the gith should have free reign right outside the walls of Allanak. People farm outside Allanak, don't they? Then why can't you walk outside the gates and forage around, or travel to these farms?

One thing that bothers me is how people speak incessantly about vnpcs, but refuse to allow them to have any real impact in the game.

There are vnpc soldiers. They should be considered. Gith and powerful monsters should be pushed back if they are becoming too big of a problem. It just makes sense.

Personally, I haven't had too much experience in the South, except that my northern ranger died(wasn't alone) in the wilderness there very quickly. The North is a cakewalk in comparison, and that's the truth.