The south...

Its sad that I have to say this, playing almost exclusively there, but Id
like to make an advertisement for PCs in the south.. join some clans... or
just make southern Pc's in general... or hell, just visit!

The north is strangling the south! AHHH!
No not literally, but teh north is indeed killing the south,
for a number of reasons...

One being the Allanak pbase is being sapped by the similar northern
environment that is the same big-cityish feel, thats easier to make your
way in, with a more laxxed general feel of the area. If anything more
lesser filled houses will be closed to follow in suit with fale.
Nenyuk has what... one or less active pc in the south? Kadius 0, Salaar
less then 5, Tor has some less then 8 id say, Borsail has less then 8 id
say, same for Oash. Byn is all but non-existant in the south anymore.
The gaj is almost always empty now...  when usually each night itd be
brimming with fresh Byn runners, gangly rinthers... and all sorts.
But Templars are in full supply! But dwindling after their boom.

Its obviously easier to role-play and have fun in a comfortable environ...
like play in the cruel obsidian jewel of the southern desert, or the bard
filled utopia on the fringes of the forest amidst the grass and scrub...
seems kinda a no brainer. And all I hear nowadays about the north is how
fun it is with all the bards, crafters, houses, now the Byn is there too...

Boxes, woodproducts and almost anything let 1st week woodcrafters make
a great living... almost wealthy in comparison to the south. Without getting
too IC, but when you can sell a woodproduct for near 1000 sids your kinda
set after one or two... and wood seems endless in the north, like sand and
rocks in the south.

Oh! Dont even get me started on rocks. For a scrub and grassy forest
land, the north gets a suprising number of desired rocks and jewels.
Almost all weapon and vaulable jewelry parts come from the north. Like:
Obsidian, which you'd think would be a southern commodity can be found
in the north readily, (north being everything northeast, north, northwest,
or just outwards from Luirs.), quartz, wooden poles, temboeye,
moonstone, tortiseshell, a good number of all medicines, even bone is in
a more ready supply.

Its almost as if the North is designed intentionally to be better and more
player comforting then the south. Rangers can live without fear, needing
only forage for food. I stress food alot because that is a MAJOR problem
for people in the south. If you know where your food is coming from you
can easily live to be 50+ days old by just not being stupid and rushing out
to fight hoards of fireants. In the north with money and resources like
sand, almost everyone survives and can make a name or successful living
by just not being stupid. Any joe with an axe can chop down a tree and
sell it for more money then most people make in a month.

Id dare say in a few years the pbase will be almost exclusively northern
based... even halflings dont seem to be dangerous anymore with all the
new fighter types up there to take care of all the road-hogging baddies.
Byn, house guards, etc etc. All ready and willing to make the peaceful
paradise safer, and get paid well for it. Its almost saddening how peaceful
it was up there my last time. I actually could -walk- from Luirs to Tuluk
with not so much as a hitch, thanks to convient 'rest stops' I call them, and
the constant patrol of freelance fighters making the roadways safe.
And by north I dont just mean Tuluk, but their almost neighborly Luir's,
which Ive heard from a number of sources is becoming as dead as the
South, but they at least get the occassional straggler from Tuluk.

Then of course are the desert elves, gypsies, and plainsfolks which all in
all Id say sap out a good 10 percent of the overall pbase, if not more.
All of these seemingly in the northern hemisphere... when's the last time
there was a tribe of speciality type characters in the South? Like I imagine
the 'plainsfolk' have a similar type of situation to gypsies... where food
and water arnt really a problem. So these are of course ideal places to
go, because one of the main worries of the game is gone. Desert elves
are like this in a way, because their incredible endurance allows them to
run to all these water holes that are around the world, or be easily
self-employed as hunters for their tribes or whatever  putting them over
the run of the mill 1st day warrior in a number of ways.

The templars and nobles are nicer, there are like a billion immortals
assigned to the region so NPC interactment seems more common, there
are actually merchants to deal with about special requests as opposed to
the south... its just more well maintained. More shops, more taverns...

Anyways... all Im saying is the South isnt that bad.
Water and food may be scarce... it may be almost impossible to live
outside the walls, or walk anywhere. You most likely wont have an easy
time making money, you'll probably always offend some noble or
templar, and alot of the time you wont see -anyone- for at least half the
time you play like me, but hey...

In conclusion I pray it will cycle out, but I really dont see how it will. There
is nothing making the north an unfun place to play for most people. Its
a perfect balance between harsh and unharsh... I personally cant stand it
up there, because its almost what the game shouldnt be... but most new
people to the mud especially would flourish in the comfort of the north, as
opposed to dying harshly and repeatedly in the almost impossible, and
now gradually emptying south... so there arnt even a good deal of people
for new people to get acclimated with.

I hope this raises awareness on what I consider a crisis in development.
I admit it isnt as bad as I make it out to seem, as I still have alot of fun in
the south, but when I hear stories of recent times in the north with like
20+ people in rooms, fun rpts, and all this it makes me wonder why Im
playing in a place where I see maybe deal with 3 pcs a day of playing, and
most of the time this is strained role-play that is hostile or anger related,
when I could be in the north having fun in a much more easy and relaxed
environment....

Oh on another note, its almost made out like the north and south are two
different levels of a game. the North the obvious easier, fluffy level, the
south the hard one where you constantly replay and can never seem to
get past that one thing...

please.... come down and play in the sand with me im lonely... and I think
the south is dying....

[crymerci]

Wow, I hardly know what to say, except..I agree, on every point. This has sort of been percolating in my brain and I've just been waiting for things to even out more. But, they're not evening out.

I like the differences in culture and environment. However, I do agree that the North is -too- easy. Also, you can very easily survive without a clan which means there are all sorts of independents up there. Not always a bad thing, but too many of them and it detracts from group RP opportunities.

Maybe we could come up with some ideas to make it harder, but keep the same feel?

-The ruins.. a fair source of player wealth. I'd suggest more dangers, less loot, or more social stigma attached to them.
-Houses.. I was sad to see House Tenneshi be closed, even though I understand why it was. A one-House town doesn't have as much possibility for political turmoil, IMO.
-Crime.. it seems to be fairly nonexistant. Now, I'm not calling for a Northern 'rinth, but one would think that an association of thieves and assassins who view their work as an art form would be nice.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Dakkon Black]

It's true to a large extent, and I know how you feel. Nothing is more agrivating that bieng a guard for a non-existant entity. Two month in game with no pay.... sitting around at the taverns pretending like you have something to do. I know people have real lives but there is a bad ass need for some more higher level people in game down south. There real thing we need is overall more people. I don't think its fair to say we should have less in the north to balance it. That would be stupid, but personally i've introduced 4 new poeple to Arm in the last month. Makes me sick when I see 1600+ people on other that crapp ass #1 excuse for a mud on top mud sites. As much as everyone loves Noob's we were all there once too. Also with the poeple I've gotten into the game, I've taken them through the files personally and made an effort to see they understand whats good Rp and whats bad. All in all I think that with our current base of about 60 people around evening, is every one of you introduced a singe new person and helped them get into it we would be at 120 poeple by next month. Sure there would be allota corpses about for awhile but imagina a day when nobles actually had someone to pick on, and there really was mounting tensions and reasons to betray folk other than you were getting bored.

P.S. This is not to say I havent seen some outstandingly cool plats with good reason. But Arm needs a kick in the pants, and the new life that it brings could be a great bonus.

[Kankman]

Yeah I've been wanting to voice this for a while now. Its aggrivating that Allanak is so empty now. However, I've been dilligent. The south will survive if I have to make sure of it myself!

The T'zai Byn is on an upswing here, with a new active Sergeant. Borsail and Tor both have RECENT posts on the IC board about taking new members. The way I can see it those in leadership positions are -starved- for people so jobs aren't scarse at the moment.

In the south you get all the beautiful conflict in the world, none of this sing-songy holding of hands and dancing around the camp-fire. I mean damn.. Burn wood? Even a twig? Not a chance, that twig is going to make a two hundred coin toothpick for Lord Fancypants.

So come back all ye faithful, come flock to Allanak once more. I'm sure it was nice to try the north and all, but you will realize after you live for 20+ hours and still haven't been hassled by a templar that life is POINTLESS without the strife that those bastard nobles create in the south. I mean, we've got THREE open noble houses to join, the militia, the T'zai Byn and Salarr and Nenyuk and... damn.. Just come back south, Allanak misses ya. :oops:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll be back. Never fear....I'll be back, and in a way you could'nt imagine...I'll be back.

Ok. This is a dumbass suggestion, I guess, and I am sure you folks will agree that it is a dumbass suggestion. But why not infest the woods with more halflings? In fact, bring back the manti too, and put them in the eastern grasslands. I agree. Turn up the heat in the North. I was shocked to go hella ways into the outdoors up there and not be attacked. Sure, its nicer, but uhm...turn up the heat. As far as the money thing goes, keep it the same. If the north turns more dangerous than the south, but retains the same sid making potential, it will even things out a lot, I think.

Another Idea. Kill the Byn. Let mercenary bands form on their own. You Byners will be flaming me, but it's not that I don't like the Byn. I been in the Byn. I am just thinking the the newbies will have to get out into the world, and with competing merc bands, things might get kinda fun.

So here we go. More danger in the North than in the South, and no Byn.

And I will be back in Nak.

Venomz - the hated.

[WarriorPoet]

I agree 1000000000%

In the past couple month, I've told probably 20 people about Arm

Old D&D friends from years back, people in my computer class, and my old Creative Writing teacher. (Only told him today, and he is RIGHT NOW  perusing the docs!)

I for one, LOVE Nak. And I not so much hate tuluk, as prefer to
be less artsy fartsy and more grit and spit.

I heard a character once say "Tuluk? No, I wouldn't like to go. Likely I'd see all the pertiness and I'd just shit. Everywhere."

Never heard it said better than that, rough as it is.

I really don't understand why anyone would want it "easy". When I started my first northern PC, I was 3 days played before I came in even a little danger of getting my guts spilled in the dust. That isn't what I come to Armageddon for, at all.

I start a Southerner, and was IMMEDIATELY molested in the Bazaar. Harassed and robbed blind, but it was GREAAAAAT!!! I love the heart pounding, pumping out of emotes while praying your green-ass character will pull a feat of wonder out of his ass and slaughter something.

Much as I love reading about northern culture, and planning characters, I'll stick with the thrill ride of the South, lonely as it may be.

Play southern Characters! Fight the northern Pigs!

[creeper386]

I completely agree, and it's not a lack of pbase thats the problem. Getting more people to play won't help that much. The north is easy. WAY easy. And everyone seems to be up there now. I've altogether quit playing Armageddon because my character is in the south, I run into maybe three people, and never at once. It's always one person here one there.

Getting more players when the north is so attractive won't help because people well just go North. I like the feel of the city in the north, but over all it doesn't really feel right and I don't like playing up there, when there wasn't many people in the north it sucked because I couldn't find anybody to RP with often, but now, it just doesn't feel right because you can get help any where, getting a job is easy and if you don't want or can't find a job you can still survive fairly well.

Because of this the south as far as I can see has a nearly non existant pbase. And it really sucks. And really detracts from probably the greatest source of conflict RP in the game.

Creeper

[Kankman]

Alright, I know of at least two people who have a character in the south right now, but aren't actively playing because its "empty".

BOO ON YOU! :evil:

That's not how to fix things people. Allanak's pbase is on the upswing again and the best inspiration to play is an audience to interact with. By stopping playing you're only contributing to the problem.

The fact that I know of two people not playing their southerners means that there are probably at least 8 in the same situation, because I don't speak with very many people on an OOC basis. If you all started playing again, bingo, we got a stable pbase again and start reattracting players.

[creeper386]

Ooh, yeah. So there is going to be fifteen people online peak time in the South that I can't interact with because they are off on their own someplace locked in a clan compound or I'm locked in a clan compound. Even when Allanak had lots of people it was still difficult because there wasn't enough players. And with it seems the main pbase all in the north it makes it even worse.

Yes we need more players, but we don't need everyone playing in the North. I'd play in the north because I like social characters and social events and the artistic/social sides of societies, but I don't like the everyone get along feel I get up there. My last character showed dislike for southerners and I felt like he was getting funny looks from everyone, northern and southern alike. Show dislike for elves or tribals and I just got a wierd vibe. There just isn't any conflict it seems. Isn't conflict to get food or water. Racial conflict and disliking people from different places seems to be looked down upon, or in the very least avoided. Even with alot of people out in the wilderness looking to kill anyone that steps outside the walls there isn't really much danger or anything. It's just bland. Missing out on conflict is ALOT worse the missing out on the social side of society.

Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I think part of the problem is that the south has been made more difficult for people who want to leave the city, rather than the north being too easy.  

Sure you can mine the ruins, but you could do that two years ago and it didn't  depopulate the south (it was a tad more difficult back then since entering the ruins was officially illegal, but it wasn't hard to get in and out).  If you don't mind the critters, you can go out and get wood, which is useful in several crafts and impossible to get in the south.  There are critters that a new warrior or ranger can hunt.  Herbs are more abundant.   There are plenty of dangerous creatures, but you have a shot at surviving an attempt hunting alone or with just one other newbie.  All of this has been true for years.  There are more shopping opportunites than there used to be, and water is much less expensive than it used to be when you had to buy it in taverns at 10+ sid per cup.

The south has become less friendly.  Even a stonecrafter will have to put himself in mortal danger to collect materials.  The tarantulas, fire ants and those annoying little poisonous snakes are everywhere.  In the last couple years the gith have become much more of a menace.  Poison bearing NPCs are common, but unlike the north poison cures are still difficult to come by, so even a small snake can jump out and bite you once and end your life.  It simply isn't possible to take precautions that would make even a simple material gathering expedition relatively safe, much less a hunting trip.  If you live in 'nak you pretty much have to play a character that spends 90% of his time inside the city.  If you leave alone you die, and it is difficult to gather a large enough party to make leaving the city safe.  A scavenger that makes his money finding and selling stones or roots isn't going to be able to afford to hire the Byn.  Newbie merchants are in a similar fix, they can't yet afford to hire scavengers or protection, so if they want to be simple crafters they have to risk life and limb.  Even though as a player I understand the way things work more now, I find the south is harder to play in than it was when I started 2 years ago.  

The north isn't really getting easier, although there is a lot of interesting new stuff up there,  I think some of this was deliberate to lure players up north, because it was really sad when New Tuluk was put in and you had this giant city with only a few players.  But the south has been getting harder.  If you want to be a character that never leaves the city, either town will do.  If you like to do get out and do stuff, the north is merely dangerous while the south is suicidal.  It's a pain in the ass to be a common peasant in the south.

There are exceptions, it is a little easier to be a criminal in the south.  It is considerably easier to be a magicker; a friendly elementalist can probably get magickaly produced water and food from his fellow elementalists for free or cheap, and you can openly be a magicker without being killed.  If you can make your living without leaving the city or needing materials from outside, the south is fine.

I tried 3 or 4 southern based characters ('nak, 'rinth, and red storm) in the last few weeks.  One got gangbanged in the 'rinth despite the fact that she was a native 'rinther, dressed in rags and wasn't doing anything stupid like killing rats or NPCs.  Others fell to the hazards outside the city.  Spice hunting seems to have become exceptionally hazardous.  Eventually I ran out of southerner concepts, and moved back north.  I like to change starting locations, once I've used all the southern ones I try the northern ones.  My northern characters usually live a few weeks, at least a few days of play time.  Lately I've had trouble keeping southerners alive for even 24 hours, one died at 7 hours, another at 3.  Obviously I'm not cut out to play a southerner the way things are now.  Even when I plan on joining a clan with a certain character, I like to play the character as an independant for a few weeks first so that she doesn't totally suck at all her skills and so she has some non-virtual history.  If I can't keep a character alive for a few weeks, then I can't get to the point where I'm ready to join a clan.  Due to the north-south antagonism, it isn't practical to start a charcter in the north and then join a southern clan when I'm ready to clan up.  Previously I've had a northern character decide to join the Byn, but now there is no reason to travel south when you can join the northern branch of the byn.  Most of southern noble houses and militia are only interested in pure humans, dwarves or half-giants that were born in Allanak.  Virtually the only reason a northerner would go south these days is if he was facing the death penalty for being a magicker or traitor in the north.

The south has gotten "harsh" enough to make it all but unplayable for certain character types.  The north is harsh, but not unplayable.

More southern creatures equivilent to gurth, vestrics, gimpka rats and greth would make it possible for new hunters to make a go of it in the south.  Currently the only "easy" creatures in the south are the jozhals (which are often surrounded by scrabs, tarantulas and gith) or rats in the 'rinth.  The little snakes aren't too hard to kill, but you're likely to wind up dead from the poison.  Currently new hunters and crafters don't have much to work with.  Something not too hard to kill, that would occasionally provide arrow-shaft material would be nice for the fletchers since branches aren't available.  Thinning out the big predators a little would help too, the deserts around Allanak feel downright crowded these days.

I'm rambling, so I think I'll go get some sleep.

Angela Christine

[Delirium]

What AC said. Totally.

I'll mention that I've played Northerners almost religiously, but a character of mine went south for a while, and well, I -loved- Allanak. It was so dark, so gritty, so.. dangerous! It was great! However, it WAS hard to survive (joining a clan was not an option) even with a 28+ day ranger. Scrab still tore her up from time to time, beetles were generally suicide, and forget tarantulas. There does need to be a few resources down south to make it -possible- to live independantly.

[creeper386]

Well. Those things that were stuck in to lure people up certainly worked. I don't think it's just that though. I think it's just now started to get acrossed how easy it is, and also now with some acctual RP up there everyones gone. I've played in the south since I've started and the outside was just as deadly as it was now, still people played in the south and even with out hunting and doing what not. Even had a ranger down there that was doing really good without hunting a thing.

The deserts have always been needed to be thinned but the pbase shift is very recent and almost over night everyone was gone. I don't think anything major has been done to make a change like that except the north. I acctually played a character south, then went north, and it was alright up there, enough people to RP same with when I was in the south. Had that character for a couple weeks went back south and there was a good amount of people, then a week or two playing him, and everyone ended up basically being gone. That was with in the last month. Although I've been playing abit later when I do log on it's not that much later then before and before I could always find people. It's be VERY recent that the south was depopulated, although there must be more people because I ran into a fair group late this night, it's probably not a decent pbase that the south needs.


Creeper who just doesn't know but is really frustrating, and logging in just to sit around and do nothing doesn't help get people to play.

[Callisto]

AC hit the nail on the head.

The north isn't easy and ripe with resources, the south is just near impossible and almost completely barren. The north doesn't need to be made more difficult, the south just needs to tone back down to a reasonable level.

Just my opinion.

[Quirk]

I'd agree with AC. The issue has everything to do with the almost ridiculous harshness of the Southern wilderness and the Rinth. The Rinth was never buzzing with PCs any time I was there, but what rumours I've heard seem to suggest that it's highly improbable that a new character will survive long there. And who dares the incredibly dangerous southern wilds?

To sum up - for different classes:

Merchants: Crafting in the North, with a greater range of materials available for free, blows away the South.

Rangers: Wilderness is far more survivable in the North.

Warriors: South is still an option, but you won't be hunting, and if you've a crafting subclass - see Merchant.

Thiefly types: South is preferable, but the dangers of the Rinth make it unlikely that a thiefly type who uses their thiefly skills and flees there often will live long and prosper.

Magickers: Can be open in the South, but if you don't like the restrictions and limited social vista of the gemmer, the secret magicker is far better off in the North where he or she is likely to be able to survive outside the gates.

I see enough character churn in the North not to jump to the conclusion that it's "too easy" to survive there. I would like to see more politics up there, and more conflict, but as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with the Northern wilds as things are. My next character will likely be a Southerner, but from all I've heard lately I wouldn't be surprised if an early death visited him, and as I tend to rotate through the starting locations, I probably wouldn't be back in 'Nak for a couple more characters, which might be some time. I suspect probably most people do this, and if the 'Nak environs are too quick to kill people off then their playerbase cannot help but drop. I think this is one of the main issues behind the depopulation of the southern hunters.

So... yeah. My recommendations: Make obsidian plentiful and easy to acquire in the South, give them the advantages they should have, tone down the wilds and Rinth (well, I believe both of these are already being looked at; may even be fully fixed already and we'll be seeing the results in time). Open another Northern noble house, even if it's not Tenneshi, and get some rivalries going. Make the North more criminal friendly so the city slickers have some dangers to worry about.

Quirk

[rnix]

I also Agree with Ac. Its hard for more then other types of characters to get out and do what their trade allows them to do in the south, I'm not saying its impossible yeah there are ways to get around them but with great difficulties and relience on others. But the comment about the 'rinth being an unlivable place, I believe that people going into there to die and also for curiosity, AND if you'd like to play a character there read up on the documents and also under the announcemeant bored, Zagren has posted the updates coming in from a player on what the rinth is really all about. Tells you what to expect what would be smart to be doing to live there, and Also gets the message out on the type of mind frame characters who go about there- A lot of updates and changes have been made just for all you to know:) Well the idea isn't totally a bad one either on the south i'm interested to see how drasctically things change thats all:)

[deviant storm]

I agree with AC.

When I first started playing Arm, some of us could and did go out just outside Allanak to forage stones. At the time, it was still dangerous, but more from PCs than from NPCs. It isn't even attemptable anymore.

It wasn't so long ago I went out with characters alone in the south. One died when she was gangbanged by three tarantulas, all of them using bash so there was no chance to flee. And this was no new pc, either. Another got chased by various very bad creatures as she traveled to and from Red Storm. Before a gith got her.

I'd like to see some way for people to make a living in the south that wasn't based on joining a house or clan. The only way to survive in the south is getting employment quickly.

Yeah, I know, harsh, realistic. But maybe too much so?

Up north...I disagree with Jenred. It's not "fluffy". There are considerable dangers. And there's a lot of competition for crafters, so while you might get quite a lot for a chest (not nearly as much as Jenred thinks, unfortunately) there are several other people selling chests. And the shops only buy so many.

I think the north is fine. It's a blast to play. Something just needs to be done to make Allanak equally playable, while not messing with its character. After all, it is the home of the Dragon.

[Anonymous]

Where the hell were all you people when Halaster made a poll about whether or not things were too rough in the south?

I've completely given up on playing a solo outdoors human, dwarf or half-elf in the south.

Another thing that negatively affects play in the south is travel upon the north road.  Call me a whiny ass bitch if you want, but I believe that making it that dangerous to travel the north road leads to less people bothering to make the trip down.

Playing a solo PC in the north is easier than in 'nak, but that's always been the case.

The one thing that has made the north too easy is the proximity of rooms where you can 'use axe' to chop down a tree to the NPC-guarded gates.

It used to be that you had to two or three times further from the gates to get logs and branches, now you are just a jump away from guards when you do your lumberjacking.

As far as the south, I've always felt like the changes, while certainly well-intentioned, were too many at a sudden time.  The return of desert tarantulas, always-grouped fire ants, IMHO buffed gith and more snakes seemed to all happen in the same month or so just about when health regen was nerfed.

I don't think any one of those things was a bad idea in the slightest, and am appreciative of the effort.  But when they were done at relatively the same time it was a shock to me.

And I never understood why.  Even before those changes I would have thought of keeping a solo hunter/warrior alive outside of 'nak would be a real challenge.

[Twilight]

I really haven't had that much more trouble keeping a character alive than I would in the Northlands.  Of course, I've been playing the run away and live, rather than fight a little then run away and live type characters.  There are vast tracts of desert in the southlands that are hardly populated at all.  As an overall design issue though, I would like to point out a few things.

There seems to be a concentration of NPCs around Allanak itself.  I'd like to see at least the general starting locations of agressive NPCs moved further away from Allanak.  As it is, after a reboot, lots of times it seems like it goes from very few aggressive NPCs around Nak to what seems like a high concentration of them.

Those damn snakes.  These are my number three most feared Southlands wilderness NPCs, right after mek and Silt Horrors.  Yep, I fear them more than packs of fire beetles and gith, which in imho is just wrong.  Perhaps there could be less of these critters, or something changed to make them down around number 10 or 11 most feared NPCs.

The fields, full of tarantulas and other mean nasties.  If I remember right, these are fields fenced in and with tracts of land in between, but they are populated by a ton of VNPC slaves and soldiers.  While I can appreciate that a tarantula might get hungry every now and again and a slave is probably pretty tasty, you would think the soldiers would keep the area clear of fairly big, mean nasties who like to eat slaves.  Or, at least, big mean nasties who might mistake a soldier for a slave.


If we had more travel between North and South, maybe it wouldn't matter so much where characters would start, or at least it might balance out a bit.  Someone needs to start doing wagon runs!

[Olafson]

Of course, the real reason the North is attracting more players than the south is that my current character is in the north and I know you all just love playing with my characters.

I have played Arm since 1994 and it has always been a problem.  The circle continues.  At one time, Tuluk seemed more popular, then Allanak, back to Tuluk, etc.  One thing I can suggest, and I try to do this myself, is to constantly change where it is you have based your characters.

So your latest character was in Allanak, next try Tuluk, try the rinth after, finally Luir's.  Desert elf?  Go ahead.  Try not to get into ruts where you keep playing the same character over and over again who interacts with the same people.  Each of these areas have a lot to offer.  Try playing in places where you don't know where everything is.  Go in fresh.

I have never felt so lost as I did when I started my current character.  There was a lot of new information in the north and my latest Naki character had lived a fair amount of time so I had lost touch with it.  I really enjoyed it.  I think I still prefer the Naki rinth to any other place to play, but I still go sometimes years without playing a character based from there.  Challenge yourself to try new places.

You have lost your last three characters to beasts outside of Nak?  Why are you still playing there?  It ain't working, try something fresh.  I have not had much experience with the area outside of Nak, my last fella there basically never left except on two or three occassions to travel to Red Storm (never even had the ride skill).  I do remember battling a tarantula who I had to run from with a well experienced warrior, so maybe there is something there.  But in the north, what about the tembo's?  The halflings?  Bahamet?  Want a poisonous animal?  Try the cilops.  My current char has again never left the city, but from my earlier experiences, this can't be much different.

Anyways, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.  If people changed their roles often, changed their locations with each new character, these trends will not be as pronounced.  Either way, in a few months people will once more complain about no one in Tuluk (unless my character still lives of course).

Olafson

[Angela Christine]

If it is any consolation, I think to a certain extent it is a temporary problem.  When New Tuluk was first put in it was a vast maze of (mostly) empty streets; this was a big turn off.  Last fall the land around the city was good, but the city itself was was bothersome.  In just the last few months, since January or so, things seem to have reached critical mass.  Moving the vineyard shops to the merchant quarter and tribal market has made doing your essential shopping a little easier.  There are now enough NPCs to make the city feel like a populated city rather than a bleak maze.  With the bardic circles, templars and nobles being active, the north now supports social RP as easily as lone rangers.  Naturally, people want to go have a look.  Even if they are enjoying the "new" area, they will likely play characters in other areas as well, once the novelty wears off.

It's like when you get that first dot of karma, and see desert elf on your list.  Most people try playing a desert elf, and it's cool to be able to run around all the time.  But from what I've seen, most people seem to go back to playing non-karma races . . . at least part of the time.  Some folks find d-elf roleplay to be the perfect flavor, but others prefer to hang in the cities or play races that can make friends outside their tribe.  Playing an elf from a virtual tribe is lonely.

I like the north, but I don't want to make every character a northerner.  I prefer to rotate through the starting locations.  The next time a <censored> attacks Tuluk a bunch of PCs will die, and likely a bunch of new PCs will be born in the south.

Honestly, the single most attractive thing I've found in the north is a shop that sometimes sells poison cures.  I think it is a PC run shop, selling PC made tablets, so the number available fluxuates.  The availability of affordable tablets makes it worthwhile to risk traveling to areas in the north that have poisonous NPCs (and there are plenty) since it is possible to survive the trip and make a profit even if you need to eat a couple tablets.  In the south there seem to be fewer poisonous creatures, but cures for the most common NPC poisons seem almost impossible to get and, due to supply and demand, prohibitively expensive when you do find them.  Nobles, Templars and other high-profile people that are likely to be attacked by assassins can afford to keep tablets on hand.  On the other hand the commoners, who are in little danger of assassination but considerable danger from poisonous animals, are out of luck.

Still, I think some people will return to the south once they have seen all there is to see in the north.

Angela Christine

[marko]

I agree with Olafson, for as long as I've played Armageddon there has been a cyclical population shift from one end of the world to the other.  While these shifts are sometimes precipitated by game changes, it is often a perception shift.

The north is thriving right now - and yet, I've managed to walk around up there when there are 60 players online and see no one in any of the major taverns.  Perhaps I should be drawing the conclusion that there's no one there?

No, the reality is that there is still a significant player base in the South and I'd suspect it is roughly equiv to the north.  The South has always felt more 'gritty' and it should remain as such.  I do agree about the recent additions of more aggressive, teaming, dangerous critters around Allanak - life has become that much more difficult.

Still, let us not forget the wandering bahamets who enjoy strolling by the gates of Tuluk - the feral halflings, the tembos, the cilops, etc.  I think part of the current situation is that the north has a few 'guardian' PCs who clear these beasts and make it a safer place.  

There are some wonderful PCs in the North and they tend to draw others to them.  This, in turn, causes a chain reaction and more people go to the North to experience the interactions, the subtleties of politics, and the sounds of the bards.  In time these chars will die and will probably restart in Allanak - and we'll see a shift back to Allanak.

[krelin]

Some proposed solutions:

Tone down the Labyrinth.  If you were born in the 'rinth, you probably shouldn't have to worry about getting attacked by natives there ever, on either side, unless you've made an enemy unwisely.

Lower the cost of water, slightly.  Fourty 'sid for a skin is a lot.

Lower the cost of flour, grain products, slightly (maybe 8 'sid for a sack of flour).  Allanak has farms, Tuluk doesn't.  Cheaper travel cakes would help a lot.  This might also translate to cheaper alcohol, if you're feeling generous.

Close the northern Byn compound.  A variety of reasons support this, but in general I think a) it isn't necessary for Tuluk -- other clans provide similar RP/training and "get acquanted" type services, as well as the IC functionalities of the Byn.  b) The lost of an active Byn population in 'Nak WILL eventually lead to a significantly reduced flow of combat-type PCs into the noble and merchant houses there.

Find IC ways of adding resources to 'Nak.  I think it would be reasonable to expect a raw-materials shop in 'Nak to carry things like raw lumber, for example (even if the costs were high, it would still allow newbie merchants, for example, to experiment with those materials).  There should be -a lot- of good, safe-ish places in 'Nak to find stones.

Tone down the wastes outside Allanak very slightly...  push the gith population back a tad, chill the beetles and tarantulas out.  Offer some lower-end bugs and reptiles for killing and skinning (and eating).

It might be nice to see just a -wee- bit more political intrigue (and seamy underbelly) in Tuluk.  I think this would make the people living "happily ever after" within the walls just a little bit more shivery when a templar walks in.  Not -too- much though...  I like the flavor there a lot.

*plink plink*

[Plazgoth]

I agree that the problem is cyclical. In my opinion there is no need to tone down anything anywhere. If anything make things harsher up north. A lot of the changes that people are complaining about have come about from IC plots and motivations. When I first started playing Arm back in 97 things were very balanced between Nak and Tuluk, or so they seemed to me. Then Tuluk fell and died down, making Nak a hot spot, now Tuluk has the upper hand, but I think things will change. I am sure the "wizards of oz" who know and watch everything from behind the curtain strive for a balance and are constantly thinking how to achieve it and try new things. In summary, toning down the South/Rinth is not a good solution, removing the Byn from an OOC perspective is a bad idea as well, my suggestion is let time correct the problem. In the mean time think about the real world...what makes so many Arabs stay in the harsh desert environment and not move to the greener pastures of the US or other places that are easier to live in.

When I first started playing seriously, more than a year ago, there was the complain that there was no one in the North. I still played there. Died a few times. I played in the south when it was considered to have most of the p-base and then came back home. There was still not many people but I said, if I play here, they will come. And now they are here.

Nothing has gotten any easier in the north in the last year.
From my perspective, several deadly beasts have been moved closer to thwart adventurerer. Many other beasts have been made more dangerous. Lots of people die. At least three or four a day it seems sometimes. People think its easier and tend to rang out further and further..til its too far.

There is no conflict in the north? Well whoever says that. Perhaps you are not helping to bring the conflict. I know that Every day someone goes onto the to-kill list of my PC. There is a lot of killing and conflict but the bodies are not often all piled outside the sun king's sanctuary for everyone to gawk at. The way I see it, in Tuluk everyone has on a happy face, but inside they are plotting your death. (with a smile and a song). If they are not, I am. All I know is there is a very high character turn over rate in Tuluk. Sure there are those hideously old characters running about, but so many are new that it can't be that easy.

I started playing in the north when it wasn't fashionable to do so. So I will not kill myself and run to the south for no good reason.

P.S. South is tough for loners. Get some friends. Don't have to be a clan. An unofficial clan is tough but you can kick some ass.

People keep bringing up that the north -isnt- too easy, its just the South is
too hard. Well I agree that say both places were empty of PCs, the north
would be a good deal difficult, and the south impossible.

But then you throw in PCs, tons of freelance rangers and warriors, byn
groups, house guards, desert elf travellers, militia, -then- it starts getting
easier. The roads are cleared due to constant travel, making areas ripe
with resources easy to get to. There is actually a REASON to make the
roads safe up north. No point to clear the western and eastern roads in the
south because... where would you go?

In the south?
head west to collect stones that make things that no one will buy? Gather
salt crystals to the east and sell them to people? maybe spice?
The shells and animal pieces are a sorry comparison to the north too.

In the north?
Wood, useful weapon components, feathers, plants, rope-components,
jewelry pieces, stuff from the ruins, collect water from the multitude of
holes, better quality and variety of rocks, FOOD THAT GROWS NATURALLY
a feat in its self... all this becomes possible EASILY due to the fact that
there is an active fighter base up there.
Even the skins and shells are fantastic in comparsion. tembo, inix, gurth,
duskhorn, bahamet... all these could make a hunter rich, while still a little
difficult, scrab just dont compare.

Like picture Allanak, then put a ripe-grassy area on its easternside that
doesnt tire or drain you of hunger and thirst as easy, fill it with forageable
food, animals that are actually worth something, and the occassional rare
danger (cilops and bahamets), what do you have? The north.

Now picture Tuluk, remove everything of value but stones from around it.
Replace gurth, vestric, gimpka rats, skeet, stilt lizards, and all other weak
little animals away with mass portions of hard and deadly grouped beasts,
remove all natural water sources, and what do you have? The south.

Its an obvious switch, thats just toooo bold. The south's main resources,
stone and sand arnt valuable to the people. No one buys stone crafted
goods, even the stones themselves arnt bought by the shopkeeper any
more. A jewelry crafter would suceed much better in the north with cheap
actually forageable components... its just sad its so obviously pampering
up there. Now I know its the north, and the climate, everything is different
but the south isnt Hell. There wouldnt be a metropolis of hundreds of
thousands of people if it was so hard to survive in.

Anyways... thanks for the agreement at least everyone, but I think the
point got skewered into the "The north is fine, the south is too hard."
which isnt what I meant at all. The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.

[creeper386]

Acctually, the funny thing I've seen, is the norths foragable food isn't as easiely got then in the south, unless you go to places that it's alittle cheesy as well as ICally abit dangerous(not codedly but RP wise) to forage. Maybe I haven't ventured far enough foraging but I've gone west east and south and wasn't much food to forage, and didn't do much to fill you up and isnt' craftable for begining cooks. In the south though if you can find a time that right outside the gate there isn't hordes of bugs, it's quite easy to find food, go alittle further and you can find an abundance of foragable food. And most all of it's craftable.

I find this REALLY odd, but I think if foraging was easier in the north it'd feel even worse, already there are tons of little things to kill for food, it's easy to avoid halflings and a good amount of the place you only run into one gortok which aren't too hard even for a newbie ranger. You can acctually relax some. The main threat in most of the area about Tuluk is PCs which are quite distinguishable from animal NPCs. Bahemet? Most the time they aren't around, they are from a different region for the most part and are only about if they chase someone in, a 'met outside the gates? Well a whole bunch of people band up and go kill it. Everyone works together for the most part. Even if there is "hidden" turmoil it doesn't work well when everyone bands together, and add to that a northern Byn? Just not that long ago Byn got abused when they went up there, and now the Byn wants to set up base and everyone and their grandmother thinks it's a grand idea or at least doesn't voice anything or do anything about it? It doesn't matter how much "hidden" intrigue, when the outside is incredibly unArmegady... And Like I've said, I've tried to start contraversy, and I get the feeling I'm the odd man out, everyone looks at me funny ICally people say no thats the wrong thing to do, he may be a southerner but he's lived here for a year or two now, he's one of us or whatever the case may be. I like the social feel and the 'idea' behind the north, but it feels wrong. Like in the south when EVERYONE is nice with magickers and 'rinthi rats just because noone wants problems feels wrong. Just like a character that doesn't fit with the theme feels wrong, the pretty, blonde haired knock outs that somehow got enough food and hygiene habbits to keep up everything she gots when she was raised in the 'rinth... It feels wrong. The concept behind the north is wrong, and I'd love to play there if it had more of a grittier, dangerous feel. The only time that it's really dangerous in the north is when you go looking for trouble. In the south trouble hunts you down, bitch slaps you a couple times and leaves you dead under a layer of sand.

Creeper who is done.

Well when I can fill a pack with roots and tubers without even leaving the Scaien (Old north) that was a good deal of easy. Its still just as possible a few steps into the grasslands, or in the groves all around the western gate.

Obviously foraging is hard at first, but it isnt always.

Yeah, in my few trips up there I got approached to "go hunt", someone
even used the term "group up to go out" which was a horrid Rom flashback that I tried to just get away from quickly.

Seems its not uncommon to join up with your fellow man, go fight off some things then return to split up the spoils. In the south you go out hunting with someone and your sure as heck going to see them turning on
you the second you engate a scrab

[tortall]

I completly agree with most everyone. I used to hate the north. Mostly because it was under populated. I loved Allanak. But after being able to do NOTHING there with me 30 day warrior but tavern sit, it was time for her to move north. I mean, come ON! A 30 day warrior here! If she went into the sands she'd be killed by those fire ants. The trantulas and scrab were easy enough, and she could take on two trantulas and a scrab or two at once with no problem. Even regular gith were ok. Though they always ran once she got their swords away... But one those urber gith started comming further south? Or the groupes of FIVE gith? Forget hunting. Move north. Heck, she could -almost- take on one halfling hunter... Or is the scout harder? If they didn't poison her of course. But gith? Forget it! Yes, it made a nice divider between the north and south, but it made it impossable for anyone to live there.

I personally can't think of any ideas to help this. I completly plan on my next char to be southern, and my current one to travel there as much as possable. But really... What can you do there besides tavern sit?


-Tortall, who finally got bored of the south.

[Anonymous]

But really... What can you do there besides tavern sit?

Hunt/travel in groups.  Which I don't particularly like because I prefer solo hunting.

Hunt/travel in groups. Which I don't particularly like because I prefer solo hunting.

Afraid not.
With the Byn decommisioned it seems there will be little to no decent fighters in Allanak that dont belong to a clan or guard group. Which incidently enough dont allow their people to go 'hunting' in impossible conditions. A person without proper training, which now seems only available in clans cant just journey out into the wastes. Ive seen groups of
like 4 newbie types with little to no combat training go out, and ALL come
back near dead, one maybe is, I ask what they fought and they say a
snake, or a jozhal or something. Forget a scrab or beetle.

In the north however, even a freelance warrior can work themselves up to greatness fighting gurth, kylori, small animals, using archery, whatever.
The south just isnt designed that way. and why would the experienced
northern fighters come down? to bask in the sun of the people that they
fought a war to be free of?

[RideTheDivide]

From what I've seen in the North, the key to a vibrant economy is a place where merchants can flourish.  If they have access to good materials, they can hire hunters and gatherers to keep them supplied.

As has been stated, the South is a really tough place for merchants.  The North is very easy because of all the wood and the easily gathered stones.  The one advantage of Nak is the availabilty of silk.

I'm not sure if there are any places to find good stones in the South in relative safety.  If there aren't, I'd love to see that added.  Also, I think it would be great to reduce the price one can fetch for logs in the North to encourage traders to make shipments of wood to Nak.

[Wondering Poet]

In the north however, even a freelance warrior can work themselves up to greatness fighting gurth, kylori, small animals, using archery, whatever.
The south just isnt designed that way. and why would the experienced
northern fighters come down? to bask in the sun of the people that they
fought a war to be free of?

Maybe I'm getting confused by what you are trying to say here Jenred.  From this point it seems to me you are saying that the south is too hard and it provides no steady progression for a freelance warrior to gain in skill.  At the same time you are saying that the north provides this steady progression.

Anyways... thanks for the agreement at least everyone, but I think the
point got skewered into the "The north is fine, the south is too hard."
which isnt what I meant at all. The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.

Now here you've said that it is the south that is fine but rather it is the north that is too easy.  I'm not seeing your logic.  The north provides a method for a newbie character to go out and gradually increase the difficulty of his prey - in a manner that provides only a small risk of running into an insta-kill npc.  If I grasp at what you are trying to say - this is a bad thing?  Instead, a newbie should instantly die outside of Tuluk?

Looking at what you've said, I would have thought you were argueing that the south provides an environment that is so brutal that only a strong and buff character can survive.  Yet such a buff character cannot develop in this environment without the assistance of a clan.  Therefore making a living in the south is untennable unless clanned.

Therefore, it seems to me that the issue lies with the south and not necessarily with the north?  Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north?  And by "a little" I do mean a little.  

As for how people interact and react - the North has been free for 15 IC years.  That means the people in the north all remember the occupation of the south.  Every single person in the north knows about the occupation and lived through it (excepting those under 15 years of age).  Therefore, everyone who is of playable age, remembers that they are all 'brothers and sisters' joined in their victory.  Sure there are differences, and these are becomming greater all the time, but the way of the north is subtle as opposed to brutal.  

Nobles in the north are treated with respect and they are not feared - it is rule through love versus rule through fear.  If you do not like it - then don't go there, but it doesn't make the north any less 'armageddon' than the south.  The environment is different.  The way to discredit someone is different - it is subtle - it involves veiled words of threat and insult.   By reviving the Poet's Circle - the north gave itself a public political arena where the bards can do personality assassination.  This then effects that person's political power, which makes them less likely to be able to do what they want...

Very different - yes.  Is it not Armageddon?  No.  It's just different.

[gfair]

Perhaps Arm has reached that point in which the great social experiments take place - the great wall of the North Road?


Or the other thought I had - trim some of the clans.  I mean.... Fale in the South?  Just clashes too much, the North is where the party happens.

First char I created after the North rose again, I thought "Why in the world would I EVER make a char in the South again?"


But pretty soon the IMMs will do what they've already started doing, to some extent - Nerfing the North.  Already there have been changes, though I doubt many people would know about them.


It's a balance - the South used to be awesome and the North was a splintered community.  Now the North is too easy.


What would I do?  Eliminate a couple southern Houses, a few tribes, and a couple Northern groups.  The Byn should be a South-only group, and Salarr's presence in the North should be limited to merchants.  There shouldn't be any Kurac group up there either, perhaps again just an NPC presence in the Tooth.

Yeah, those groups all add a lot to the atmosphere, but we have to deal with this fractured player base one way or another.  And since there are multiple groups that do the same thing but in small numbers, eventually you have to ask yourself - why?

Personally, I don't know much about the tribes at all, but it seems like they are a great scattering of PCs all about.  No one group should ever be isolated with great difficulty from the rest, it simply breaks up too many RP possibilities.


But in the end, this is an IMM issue, I'm positive they are aware of it and will try to do something about it.[/url]

You hit it right on the head wandering poet.

While the north provides steady progression for both merchants and warriors, the south does not. Making it an obvious choice for creating a pc.
Go somewhere where you can naturally progress and have fun, or somewhere where its extremely hard, almost impossible to.

My 'logic' is that PCs are going where its easier to live, play, survive and roleplay. Making people that -want- to play in the harshness of the south alone and without interaction, and thus having a hard time advancing, living, playing, etc.

Therefore, it seems to me that the issue lies with the south and not necessarily with the north? Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north? And by "a little" I do mean a little

The two are intertwined, around the common subject of: Players. As Ive
stated before, alot of the easiness and relative 'sucess' of the north lies in
the larger pbase they've garnered. The large supply of materials makes
merchants and 'sid more availabe, then able to hire guards, do all that, all
while naturally progressing in the comfortable world around them.

In the south there is little of anything of value, so merchants are few,
Salaar and Kadius both learned the money is north, and thus there is little
of either in the South, by extension no pc guards of theirs, and then so on
down the chain.

Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north? And by "a little" I do mean a little

Exactly. Perhaps balancing out the polar opposite would allow more PCs to
return to the south, then by extension create more chances to roleplay,
have fun, etc.

But as the north continues to prosper it like sucks PCs in. People can only
stay in the south so long before they realize: Why am I here? Conflict RP
will only tide Allanaki's over til there is no one left to conflict with... then
who knows.

[Bakha]

I'm enjoying this thread, so please continue, but I do wish to comment on one thing. I believe the people pointing to the cyclical nature of the playerbase (and the posters that pointed to this have been around for a long time) are on the right track.

In my opinion the Northlands doesn't have more players because it is easier to survive there (although it is easier to survive there, I'll not argue against that). The reason it has more players is because there is a sense of excitement about all of the new things going in up there. Many of the people playing in the Northlands, from what I've seen, have been around for a while. They've played all over, they're likely a little jaded. They've been in all the clans, they've read all the documentation for those clans, they've explored the Known World, they've been there, done that. Enter the Northlands: suddenly there's an entirely new place and culture to explore.

New clans, new documentation for those clans, new areas, a chance for discovering something new in this game that they've been playing forever. Suddenly everything is fresh, there's new avenues of roleplaying cropping up everywhere. Northern Bard? Woah, there's a concept I've never explored or played before. House Winrothol? I wonder what their documentation and estate looks like? I think I'll make a PC there next! Etc.. etc. Eventually, though, the newness will wear off. Some people will like the North, others won't. Things will even out again.

Now, my comments above are in no way intended to detract from the other arguments made. I believe there's something to the argument that the Northlands is too easy, too fluffy, not quite gritty enough. That it is, perhaps, in danger of losing some of the feel that makes Armageddon great. Believe me, this has been a fear of mine since I first started helping out with the project up there and writing up some of the clan documentation. And while I agree with all of the people that point out that things aren't necessarily as they appear on the surface, that intrigue and danger lie below, I also realize that the hidden intrigue, oppression and danger can only remain hidden for so long before they may dissappear altogether, leaving only the fluffy surface. However, I do believe that more conflicts, more intrigue, more danger will begin to come into play as New Tuluk matures. Certainly it isn't going to have the same flavor as Allanak, but it will be there.

As a final thought, please continue with the discussion on the harshness of the Southlands and the Northlands. I don't really play as much as I should, so it's interesting for me, personally, to read this and see the ideas for how to improve play.

Cheers,
Bakha

[Anonymous]

And while I agree with all of the people that point out that things aren't necessarily as they appear on the surface, that intrigue and danger lie below, I also realize that the hidden intrigue, oppression and danger can only remain hidden for so long before they may dissappear altogether, leaving only the fluffy surface.

I'm not trying to kiss ass here.  But thank you Bakha for wording what I've been trying to say for a while now in a clearer way than I think I've been able to.

Rubbing your hands together in the shadows, planning to kill your enemy if they happen to live for a RL year is a valid tact, but when everyone conducts themselves in that way there is no open conflict.

When most everyone pussyfoots around the opinions of others, or act with discretion it just gets....boring.  All that's left is empty talk about how their day went while everyone sits around waiting for the next Imm-sponsored RPT or people having mudsex.

I get enough inane conversation at work and enough masterbation in the shower to take care of those two things.

[Thrill-Killa]

I've killed two Pc's in the last week. Maybe you should get on the ball CRW. Yes in the north.

Okay, well on Bakha-ian request... I will bring up some more! Bwahah.
Just kidding Ill go easy.... sorta.

*The north has advantages of course, because of its natural place
in the game world. ICly it IS a richer, lusher, more hospitable place then
the south. I understand and acknowledge that. But seems the -dangers-
are underplayed. They removed a heaping helping of danger with the
removal of Blackmoon/wing, whatever it was called that pillaged the roads
and made the world unsafe. Halflings seem to not be as present or
dangerous as they once were. One tembo in the near vicinity of Tuluk
doesnt seem to compare to the 3 scrab, 2 groups of fire ants, 4+ beetles,
3 snakes, then hidden tarantula's you'd be likely to encounter a few paces
out into the wastes. Now I -heard- through the grapevine that these were
made to offset the natural sentiment in new players to hack-and-slash,
and to balance out the economy, blah, blah blah. Where is the enforcing
of this same sentiment in the north? I -heard- or read somewhere that the
game was designed so that people -cant- just go out smashing away in
their first few minutes, and that people would logicially have to be trained,
and actually develop their characters before trying to go out fighting. This
used to be well and good... but seems the north is gradually lessening this
policiy to -keep- people there. Never see anymore bahamet raids on the
east gate. Halflings sitting two leagues out the western gate... barely even
any danger on the road. Whereas in the south you'd be sure as hell to be
fighting for your life with any attempt to journey out of your the normal
scenery... In any direction. Gith to the north and east, beetles, scrab, fire
ants, snakes, tarantulas to the south and west. There are no 'small' beasts
like in the north. Nothing for the new to the game to do. You need to be
trained to get anything done really...

*Economy, as I stated above, obviously the north's econonmy
SHOULD be wealthier then the south... but its getting a bit out of hand. The
items you'd think would be available in the south... jade, obsidian, silk,
wider variety of stone then marble and jasper, spice, gems, etc, all arnt
there. Obsidian predominantly comes from the north nowadays, along with
jade, and all types of other goods. The south almost literally has nothing
to offer the north that can be scrounged by the common person. Of course
you can sell goods from npc merchants... but what sense does this make:
Buying an obsidian sword from Salaar in the south and selling it to salaar
in the north, or vice versa: Buying a wooden shield from Salaar in the
north and selling it to salaar in the south. Its the same company. Thats
like buying a diamond ring from someone in New York, then selling it back
to that person in LA for an extremely raised price. Forageble to the say
1st week person in the south are: stones, salt, one plant maybe, and then
the very rare piece of precious stone. This is all if you can survive the
great amount of beasties prowling the areas. So say you do successfully
find some stone or something, make a cup maybe? Sell it for 1 sid or less,
you still cant afford food or water, and will probably die. It just isnt viable.
-Now in the south. A first week woodcrafter can cut down a few limbs of a
tree, after a few days of learner, probably with a teacher, make a box,
block, or any of a number of things and sell them and make good profits,
even in the north. Canes, whatever. Not to mention in the south where
they'd make even more.

So to recap... for independants: Its easier to be a fighter in the north, and
also merchant types. Now lets move on to the un-independants.

* A guard of a house in the south has a slight advantage, but the
common consensus is that they are dealing with no one for a good deal of
time. But still get paid, and can live on. But 'just living' is only fun for so
long. So they go looking for maybe tavern interaction. There is some, and
it might get them by. This is pretty similar in the north Ive heard, so we
can call this one a tie. Itd probably be a little better in the north for a clan
guard, but its close to call.

* However, clanned merchants are entirely different. I wont even
go deeply into this because I already talked about economy. Its just really
hard to be a southern merchant...

*So now... solutions.
The south could be tweaked. Maybe add some small critters. baby spiders,
scrab, beetles. Carrion birds of some type? Desert vultures maybe?
desert mice, Ive seen those in descriptions. Wild brakahan lizards, wild
chalton... I mean even their description:

Chalton : These six-legged antelope-like creatures are perhaps the most common source of leather and horn in the Southlands, as they are typically raised as domestic beasts, having adapted to the bleak & horrifically dry southern environment.

You'd think thered be some out there that you could maybe tame and sell
to people in town? Or just kill for their leather and horn. Maybe have
chalton flocks... I dont know.
Even just a few additions would then boost the general chain. Desert
vulture claws used to make knives that could be sold to Salaar, mice skin
tends to be fairly exotic, and people could make scarves or something, I
dont know. Then beaks. Beetle carapace should be more workable.
Chalton hide armor produceable, components sellable to hide shops.

Wider variety of stones. Marble and jasper even seem rare for a 'rocky
wasteland' foraging in a rocky wasteland for a good deal of time and
coming up empty seems a bit sad. Maybe be able to find granit, larger
chunks of sandstone... the type used for buildings. Im not a rock expert
or I could suggest something else, but for an area described as being
abundant with rocks, only finding commonly two types seems rough. Then
with new types of stones findable, there might be a desire to buy these to
make things, or just have shopkeepers actually buy them.

* Farming. Maybe make it possible to farm. This would add some
flavor to the lands. I dont know how seasons work in the game, but if you
plant, tend and wait a good while you should be able to grow at least
something. I mean supposedly there are farms and such down there.

* Spice. For being such a profitable and widely used commodity in
the north, there seems to be little in the south... where I believe it comes
from, silt deposits and what not. It should be a little more common, this
would at least draw spice runners from the north to deal with some of the
hard attituded Southerners.

Anyways, there is some more fuel to the discussion.

[chang]

[BLURB] Weren't there farms at one point?  Got burned by gith? [/BLURB]

Having a lot more spice patches seems like a great idea to me.

Would be great rewards for your risk. You could make some sids without even having to fight any death machines, at least theoretically. Might tend to bring more folks down south and to red storm. I just thought that idea in particular was good.

Since the south is so barren I think that every single piece of an animal would be used. I think if you skin a silt flyer you should get gobs of materials, every one of them craftable. From everything you should get quite a few items, (when your good at skinning you get gobs)

[creeper386]

As I've said before, maybe it was just an odd thing, but right off the bat I could forage lots of food in the south, even in sand dunes. Went north could find some food but it seemed harder.

But for the most part, I don't see how the north would be "richer" then the south. According to everything, obsidian is what the currency is made out of. Normally the source of currency of the same amount, is worth AT least as much as the coin. According to everything, Allanak has the only major source of obsidian. Sure the common man in the north might be richer, but overall the south should be ALOT richer. Although this spreads open the gap between the upper class and lower class, noone minds because they've been raised to except it, and it's because they Highlord said the nobles are better and commoners aren't. The people except this COMPLETELY.

Yes, the north should be more abundant in food and in water. This also means there should be a more abundance of herbavores, which brings in a more abundance of meat eaters. The north SHOULD be more populated in the south. Maybe it is and the few strong things kill everything else but it seems that there are a few powerful things, and alot of easy to avoid and small things. Honestly, halflings and bahamet aren't any trouble. Quite avoidable. Gortok are tough but if your careful and aren't too stupid you only run into one maybe two at a time. One a newbie fighter person can take, two you can get scratched up good, but normally can flee or kill both if you have abit of practice.

Along with everyone working together. It's understandable that everyone works together because they just over through the South... But they JUST over through the south. They shouldn't be buddy buddy with southerners and there STILL should be racial conflict, even if it's on a minor scale. Honestly I don't see how the north would allow the Byn to set up base. Even if it's northerners that come in and recruit and build the Byn place... They left and joined a HOSTILE orginization. I don't see how they can be so readily excepted... It's said Byn were killed after the war, with that type of sentiment, fifteen years isn't alot of time just to throw everything out the window because these bynners are NORTHERNERs. Things don't work that way. Fifteen years isn't a long time at all. I can see even a hundred years being not much time. Even after short one year OCCUPATIONs countries don't turn over that quickly. Heck, most the world dislikes countries and organizations because of the Crusades that happened four-five hundred years ago? People try saying real world arguements don't have a place... But people don't forgive and forget that easiely, SPECIALLY when their land and religion is involved. Is the North so naive that they think the South won't ever try anything again? Come on... It really doesn't make much sense.

For the most part, I'm guessing it's not really the north being easier then the south, but when the south is dramatically difficult, but it certainly adds onto everything else, the lax RP, the ability for room to do what you want. Just the fact that there is lots of decent housing and the 'sid going about to buy them is a BIG incentive. Honestly I don't see any of my characters ever even able to afford a house in the south, and the prospect of a house is the main thing that would draw me north. Just because I like to do my own thing. It allows you to be creative and everything. On top of this Tuluk also has *gasp* a set up social systems. Social gatherings. Social in the south is sitting in taverns or going out in a group to kill things. The occasional gladiator match thrown in. I honestly think one truthfully played Fale noble could help add social interaction in the south, but everyones against that.

The problem isn't the ease of life, I think it's the ease of RP. In the north you have all sorts off OOC freedom, compared to in the south it seems, and I think THATs what doesn't fit into Armageddon. Not that playing in the south stiffles character creativity. It just difficult to advance and acheive. In the north everyone eats well and has all sorts of money. Part of Arm is the scrounging, climbing up that wobbly ladder, knowing any time someone can step right over your or you can just be thrown from the ladder to land on the spikes below. I don't know. Thats just how I feel about it, and although I like the idea of the north, I don't like how it's being played. Kind of like my idea of religion and the populaces opinion on Teknoltes and how noone cares about it or thinks the populace beleives Tek and his templars are part of an oppresive regime that everyone hates and is afraid of.

Creeper

[spicegod]

I had a group that tried having spice in allanak. We were a group that brought spice from red storm up to nak. It was much harder  than expected. Every single nakki citizen (even the seedier ones) turned us into templars! If templars are hated and fear in nak why would its citizens run off like little good boys everytime they see something wrong? It just doesnt make sense.

[Savak]

I have a couple of quick comments, which I'll preface by saying that Bakha has brought this discussion to the staff board and we're all having some input.  I also think that overall the posts & discussions here have been good, meaning some of my comments are directed at only a few people at past moments in time.


I've seen the use of terms like "clear the roads" and it makes me think of an H'n'S player clearing a zone.  No d00d th@t on3z [L3@R!!!  This has been a commonly used term over the years, but keep in mind that it's completely inappropriate to Armageddon.  Have they driven back a few predators?  Perhaps sent a small group (of many) of potential raiders back to their hideout to lick their wounds?  Are these dangers not likely to return at -any given moment-?  I just think "clear" gives entirely the wrong impression, particularly to newer players.

Hunting.  Being a lone or independent type, particularly one who classifies themselves as a "hunter," is not meant to be easy.  Indeed, it is meant to be very difficult.  Further, hunting (at least for the sane) wouldn't include things like gith or, usually, large beasts.  That's what the careful would-be independent/lone hunter is all about -- picking and choosing targets very carefully, and doing their damndest to not get caught by anything else.  At the same time, the large predators and humanoid raiders are doing THEIR damndest to catch easy prey.  A lone -anything-, particularly a mid-sized humanoid or smaller, pretty well qualifies.  I don't see a problem with hunting or travel being difficult for a loner, per se.

Travel.  Travel is meant to be very difficult, particularly when traversing virtually the ENTIRE KNOWN WORLD.  By this, I specifically refer to the trip between Allanak & Tuluk.  In terms of game mechanics the trip may not be terribly long.  But Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath are theoretically separated by IC weeks+ of travel, across rough terrain and through potentially hostile territory.  When PC's run a kank back and forth half a dozen times or more in an RL day (about an IC week), one of the ways we have tried to slow this is by adding excitement along the way, usually in the form of combat.  We've been considering other ways to achieve this effect, without resorting to making mounts next to useless or adding "filler" rooms which otherwise serve little purpose.  Or making the roads so dangerous that ppl die or run faster, rather than traveling in larger groups and moving more methodically, taking breaks along the way.

Whether the South is "too" difficult or the North "too" easy is another matter, although I don't think the solution is to make bigger badder DOOM THINGIES in one area and removing them from the other.  Good changes are more dispersed and inventive.

-Savak

[Angela Christine]

I think you have to be careful about harshenizing the north.  Part of what makes the areas near the city relatively safe is that there are a buttload of PCs (who cut their teeth on vestrics and tregils) out clearing the roads.  Right after a reboot there are plenty of dangerous critters, but within a day they have been thinned to the point where they are fairly easy to avoid.  When the high population in the north wanes again there will be fewer uber-hunters clearing the roads and forests near the city, and the harshness will bounce back naturally.

Before the snakes, tarantulas and uber-gith down south, it wasn't too bad if you waited a day or so after a reboot to go foraging.  Various clans and groups would go out and do a little scrab hunting, so after a day the scrabs were thinned out to the point where you could avoid them.  The agressive predators have gotten more plentiful while the PC hunters have gotten less plentiful, makeing the area around the cities more dangerous.  Forget foraging for rocks, it's safer to run down the salt-ivory road and forage in the salt flats.  You run the risk of encountering a Mek or Salt worm, but the predator population density is much lighter.  Even running through the rinth and down into the sewers seems like a more viable foraging technique than going outside the city, but you have to have a character that would have some reason to try it.    

Anyway, fewer PCs in the north would make the north more dangerous.  More PCs in the south would would make the south safer.  Catch 22?

Angela Christine

[crymerci]

From a materials gathering aspect, I can say it is indeed harder to find everything in the South than it is in the North. Except sandstone. That valuable gem is more common in the South. Oh, and salt and spice, but I've never heard of anyone making a living gathering either, so anyone who tries must die pretty quick.

Creeper.. I do agree that roots are perhaps slightly easier to find in the South, but a) there are the southern dangers to compensate for and b) you can forage other food in near-complete safety in the North.

[Moe]

Being a southern merchant who is successful, I can safely say it _IS_ possible.. however my char is also a extremely well established merchant, and has the connections and support needed to thrive..

That being said, I can definately see how being a newbie merchant in the south could be extremely hard to do, as there really isn't jack shit to craft thats even remotely easy or cheap to get. Most people arn't really interested in hiring merchants.. (I myself very rarely hire anyone, mostly because I barely have enough business to keep my char active, let alone having stuff to dish off to other chars)

The south is slowing down, and most of the 'action' down there is political within the city. There is a very established player base down there though, and the political intrigue can be much better than what I have witnessed/heard about up north. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the players that ARE in Allanak for the most part now, are long lived chars, that have a strong history, and a strong grasp on the history and the politics of the city. Wheras up north, with everything being renewed in the past 15 IC years.. people are kind of unsure as to thier specific roles in socioty.. and thier hasn't really been enough time to get a good base of political intrigue.  Add to that the fact that almost anyone can prosper very well in the north, it doesn't make for the enviroment that leads to a lot of political stryfe.

But I also definitely agree that the game  is/was/always has been on a cyclical cycle... right now the south is slow, and the north is thriving. I'm sure soon enough, people will get sick of the north, and start making more chars down south.

-Moe The Schmoe
:evil:  :twisted:

I like to think the system will cycle back, and am hopeful it am... but Im also not so sure because of how things are going. The north has remarkable potential for peaceful, successful, and not-so-violent RP. Alot of new people that come from Muds where food doesnt matter, fighting is common, and all that would much rather be up there. The cycle of things wasnt so major back when Tuluk was in ruins, because the bulk of new people didnt like going up there because it was fairly empty of pcs.

Now 'New' Tuluk is like a large place that easy to thrive in. So I fear the cycle will be broken, and the staff and players will begin to focus more on the north to incorporate the things they like of Allanak and the south, to keep people in the north. I  mean throw a little of the Allanak 'harshness' political intrigue, shady underhanded life and you'd take another heaping helping of people up there too.

I guess Ill just be hopeful that Muk and the dragon have another disagreement, and my beloved backwater and country-like north will return ^_^

[halfbreed]

Just one more voice to pipe in here...  speaking as someone who USED to know the game inside and out, then returned after many RL years hiatus, I find it funny that people think the north is too easy.

For someone who knows the game or who have friends who can give you lots of pointers, yes, it can be ridiculously easy.  But take away that fertile ground and you subject yourself to ever-dwindling PC populations again.  You NEED a place like Tuluk so newer folks have even half a chance to survive, w/out needing to instantly join a clan as some lowset-rank peon who's RP is going to be limited to moving about like an automaton, whenver his seargent barks orders.

As AC said, I too believe Nak has just been made way too hard.  This harshness does have it's appeal, but it had better be replaced with a draw as well.  I don't thinke the North is nearly the cakewalk people make it out to be, considering in the month (RL) that I've been back, I've seen at least a dozen corpses now... in one evening I found 3 separate corpses... obviously of new players who quickly found their deaths.

I'm very much in favor of making things harder by using PC-based solutions rather than super-deadly-uber-NPCs-style tactics.  (Mainly, have more Imm-driven or encourage player-driven plots which set people against each other.)  Start up a new and very active raider clan up north.  The Templars are easier on you up there?  Fine... make things very easy on thieves too, tone the crim-code down so that everything that isn't nailed down to your own body is likely to get stolen.  Make the houses wage war on each other, and make sure people get caught in the crossfire.  For gods sakes, don't turn the north into a barren wasteland where the only rule outside is monstrous deadly creatures that wander around mindlessly killing PCs, like it is in the south.  I don't think that will help a thing.

[Stroker]

First, lets remember that about a year ago Tuluk wasn't all that full either. In fact it was about as empty as Luir at many points in time. The taverns were almost always empty or full of one or two people. Then the remodeling came and it turned Tuluk into Allanak, only like you said easier. That is why everyone if flocking there, because it is Allanak only easier. But, I am sure it will all even out when the imms begin to remodel Allanak in some way.

[Tlaloc]

Afraid not.
With the Byn decommisioned it seems there will be little to no decent fighters in Allanak that dont belong to a clan or guard group. Which incidently enough dont allow their people to go 'hunting' in impossible conditions

The Byn has been decommisioned? This is news to me, as currently there are two active recruiters in both city-states. Now the only problem is people actually logging on long enough to play, instead of logging in, looking around, realizing its Nekrete, and logging out.

-Tlaloc

[Callisto]

The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.

Keep your snide remarks and misrepresentations of the Four Lands to yourself, Jenred. If you want to throw a tantrum, do so without ripping on someone elses hard work.

Have a nice day.

[John]

Now the only problem is people logging in, looking around, realizing its Nekrete, and logging out.

I always did find that phenomenon amazing. Some of my best times in the Byn were cleaning the toilets. I even got stuck in the toilet and had to wait for someone to get me out  :roll:

[Lazloth]

Then the remodeling came and it turned Tuluk into Allanak, only like you said easier. That is why everyone if flocking there, because it is Allanak only easier.

What the hell are you talking about?  How do the two city-states resemble each other, pray tell?  If you're going to spout nonsense, at least make some sort of attempt at an argument, like Jenred.

[LoD]

I figured I'd throw in my own opinion on this thread as it seems to be getting a lot of attention from both players and Imms alike.

There are a lot of opinions being tossed around, so I will try and address each of these in turn.  I apologize if I miss a few of them or take something out of context as many of the same things are being said by different people:

...Allanak pbase is being sapped by the similar northern environment that is the same big-cityish feel, thats easier to make your way in, with a more laxxed general feel of the area.

I believe you are witnessing three different factors coming into play while making this observation.  Those three factors (as I see them) are:

New Tuluk

Tuluk is a growing and thriving part of the world right now.  It is littered with opportunity, action, excitement and people running about every which way trying to get a piece of the pie and see everything.  Of course the 'new north' breeds a certain curiosity in players who have spent a lot of time playing southland characters while the north remained a center of turmoil and sparse activity.

Growth

Many people feel that the northlands are 'too lax' on their RP.  That everyone seems to be buddy-buddy with one another.  This is simply not true.  I believe what people are witnessing is a fledgling community beginning to get on its feet and a vastly different approach to justice than the southlands.  The Iron Fist of Doom is not the preferred method of dispensing His justice and there are still plenty of problems breaking out here and there.  The basic reason for everyone "seemingly" getting along is that the north is still finding its new identity.  Lines are being drawn.  No one's really sure what's going on and the government is pretty loose.  There isn't much crime because food is abundant, much of the population are game hunters and the city is rebuilding, not decaying like Allanak.

Leadership

Players go where the fun is.  Fun is usually created by leader PC's that manage clans and offer jobs, RP and provide interaction between other parts of the world.  When the leadership of certain clans begins to dwindle, so does the playerbase.  The clans that should be doing the bulk of the newbie hiring (Salarr, Kadius, Kurac and Byn) go through slumps like everyone else and the playerbase obviously suffers as a result of this.  The noble houses HAVE to be picky because of IC concerns and their commitment to being pinned inside the city 90% of the time, but the Merchant Houses and T'zai-Byn have GREAT amounts of opportunity to employ PC's, give them something to do and involve them in RP that takes them out of the city into interesting environments.  The problem is that you need practiced, capable, patient and talented PC's to handle these roles, which you don't always have.  This leads to the playerbase going where it CAN survive without the aid of these leaders.

Rangers can live without fear, needing only forage for food.

I don't know who came up with THIS idea, but as someone who has played in the northlands for a few months - there aren't more than a handful of independant hunters that I've seen last more than RL month.  People die in the northlands VERY easily and readily.  If you believe otherwise, you need to play up there a little more and criticize it a bit less.  Yes, for someone who has a good grasp on things and has played the game for awhile, you can make your way about much more easily in the northlands than the southlands, but it doesn't seem to be -that- much more friendly to new players in the long run.

In conclusion I pray it will cycle out, but I really dont see how it will.

Well, I have seen it cycle just within the lifetime of my present PC.  When I was playing in Allanak, the population was thriving with both leaders and followers alike.  The 'unbalanced north' was the same as it is today, but that didn't seem to make a big difference.  What is so different now?  I think that even taking away a handful of players in top positions in the 'high profile' clans mentioned previously can really hurt the playerbase.  When the T'zai-Byn slows to a crawl and the Merchant Houses aren't very active, it doesn't really help the newbies whom enter the game and are referred to these clans as good places to start.

How To Fix the Problem

I'm not saying I have all the answers and there are many others whom have made good suggestions that I may list again.  I believe that the largest problem for new players is the harshness of the south immediately out of the gates.  I have no problem with a few bad things prowling around in the distance.  The swarms of scrab, beetles, spiders and gith, however, are more than capable of ripping a PC to shreds.  It doesn't give a new player much of a chance.  Here are my suggestions:

Redistribution of Southern Creatures

As AC suggested, I believe they more powerful and deadly of the creatures about Allanak need to be pushed back a good ten-twenty rooms or so in each direction (as possible) to allow a small area of activity for local crafters, hunters and the like.  

Going hand in hand with this addition would be the creation and application of new plant life and small game about the city.  These small game would live between the city and the larger game of the deep desert.  Big game doesn't live near the cities because the soldiers and local VNPC hunters would likely patrol, so I think it makes perfect sense for the more dangerous game to be in the remote areas.  This would mirror the general format of the north and allow hunters and crafters a bit of a berth to ply their craft and learn without death being their first and last instructor.

At any rate, I believe that the cycle favors and follows the environment for RP, things to do and interaction - not the coded benefits of the north over the south.  I do believe a slight tweak to the immediate area about Allanak would go a long ways to help.  The addition of plant life, forageable rooms and small game to hunt would provide a lot of relief for newer players.  Placing the larger and more dangerous game further from the city would still retain the danger of travelling alone, but it would allow new players the chance to make a few mistakes and learn without dying in 5 seconds.

My own take on most of the issues at stake.

-LoD

[Swordsman]

I think Allanak-Tuluk is just cycling (as it always has for as long as I've played here), and Bakha got it right when he said that there're probably more people in Tuluk right now simply because it is 'new'-ish. Like a lot of things, I think north-south PC population will balance out on its own. (And if it doesn't, I'm sure the imms will come up with something to help it along.)

I haven't played in the southern desert for a while now, but the last time I was there, the impression was 'crowded' (dangerous, too, but very crowded). While on a trip, there was a point where there was a group of hostile NPCs in every direction at the same time. One of the things I liked to do was just enjoy the emptiness of the desert around Allanak. A desert that's crowded with NPCs just doesn't feel like a desert to me. Although it was a while ago, from people's posts it sounds like the desert there is still pretty crowded.

Swordsman

[Tlaloc]

Just to add more confusion to the mess, I was idly checking tonight occasionally, and it seems both Tuluk and Allanak both have (during the times I checked it) roughly an exactly equal playerbase, split down the middle. There were a few more in Tuluk, early on, but the population in Allanak rose slightly, to even it out.

This was by no means a scientific, accurate study, but just what I've parused over the evening.

Maybe, part of whats happening, is that instead of having 90% of the playerbase all holed up into one city-state, you now have more of a an even split? So where before you had 45 people logged in, and 30 of them were in Allanak, now you get 15 in Allanak, 15 in Tuluk, and 15 spread through the rest of the world.

Just a thought

[The Lonely Hunter]

Short and to the point.
Quick fix, another war, level a city. =)

[John]

Just thank god that we now have a playerbase of 70 instead of a playerbase of 30 like 8months ago  :shock:

[Delirium]

Start up a new and very active raider clan up north.

I'd be glad too.  :twisted:

I'd add something coherent and helpful, but I think I'll do that at a later date when I'm actually awake. As I stated in my previous post, though, I've played in the North and South and loved both.. it's just much harder to be an independant in the South. That's pretty much all it boils down to.

[marko]

Perception is everything - I suspected, as Tlaloc indicated, that the split is more even than it appears.  But, I suspect as well that the PCs online in both places weren't necessarily in public areas.  I also suspect that many 'old players' (who, argueably play some of the more respected and recognized characters) are currently in the North - reinforcing from an OOC view that "everyone" is in the North.

That said, I agree with the idea of moving the more dangerous creatures further away from Allanak and introducing a variety of new flora and fauna that is easier.  From an ecological view - this makes sense since there would be patrols keeping the larger creatures at bay which, in turn, would allow the smaller 'prey' type creatures to flourish (even with humanoids hunting them regularly).  

The North is well balanced in my view.  I'm currently in the north and I've seen since the start of my char a significant number of deaths - roughly equiv to those I would have seen if I were in Allanak a couple of years ago.  This implies that while it is possible to survive and you can - it is not a guarantee.  

If there is a desire to 'tweak' the north - the introduction of a new moderately skilled (large gortok level) creature who is aggressive would probably work.

[spawnloser]

Since everything has been said multiple times by multiple people, I figured I'd just chime in with this:

Okay, I don't know what you're all talking about...but I am playing a merchant in the south and have no problems with materials.

[Bestatte]

I saw very little intrigue when I was up in the North, where I played a single PC for a period of a few weeks. What politics existed, seemed focused in very narrow areas and it was nearly impossible to get involved in the plotlines unless you forced yourself into them.

As someone who thrives on intrigue and cut-throat politics, I found the northlands extremely lacking. And now with the discontinuation of Tenneshi as a clan for PCs, I imagine the only excitement you'll find within the city walls is practicing for the next bardfest.

This is purely my opinion, based solely on my limited observations and my own personal approach to roleplay. I'm sure there are plenty of things to keep players busy in the north, but I didn't find enough of it to keep me entertained, short of practicing my character's skills by herself or with a very select few others.

I would like to see both Winrothol and Tenneshi thrive, and add at least one more noble house to the fray to get the politics moving again. Nothing shakes up a population more than finding out which house is fucking with which other house, and why, and who is involved, and how they're doing it...and how YOU can be part of it too.

[Angela Christine]

*Economy, as I stated above, obviously the north's econonmy
SHOULD be wealthier then the south... but its getting a bit out of hand. The
items you'd think would be available in the south... jade, obsidian, silk,
wider variety of stone then marble and jasper, spice, gems, etc, all arnt
there. Obsidian predominantly comes from the north nowadays, along with
jade, and all types of other goods. The south almost literally has nothing
to offer the north that can be scrounged by the common person. Of course
you can sell goods from npc merchants... but what sense does this make:
Buying an obsidian sword from Salaar in the south and selling it to salaar
in the north, or vice versa: Buying a wooden shield from Salaar in the
north and selling it to salaar in the south. Its the same company. Thats
like buying a diamond ring from someone in New York, then selling it back
to that person in LA for an extremely raised price.

I'd think it would be more like buying it from a jewlery shop in LA, and then selling it to another franchise of the same chain in Ankorage, Alaska.  It is worth more in Alaska because it is a pain in the ass to ship anything to Alaska.  The Alaskan franchise will be able to demand a higher price from the customer.  Likewise, while you are up in Alaska you might pick up some native soapstone and tusk carvings cheap, and then sell them to a fancy boutique down in LA for more than you paid, because "authentic innuit (eskimo) carvings" are rare outside of the north.

It isn't too hard to survive several trips as an independant dune trader, but they always get me in the end.   :cry:  When an independant trader moves the goods, they do it with absolutely no risk to the merchant house.  When the merchant house moves the goods themselves, there is always some risk and expense: they have to maintain a wagon (keep it oiled and repaired), feed the beasts that pull the wagon and carry the outriders, train and pay the guards that guard the cargo, pay the merchants that oversee the operation, etc.  And there is a significant danger that some or all of those resources, plus the cargo itself, will be damaged or lost.  The independant trader pays retail (or close to it) when he picks up the cargo, and if he dies or is robbed the the trader eats the cost rather than the house.  Now for PCs, the situation seems a little different since wagons, mounts and the NPC guards require no PC maintenance, and the journey can usually be completed in a single day.  But ICly it is a long and dangrous trip.  I've found with 1 or 2 kanks once I cover my expenses (food, water, bandages, stabling, etc. for the trip) I can usually make 100-200 sid profit on a north-south trading trip.  It seems like plenty, but most of that will be re-invested in stock for the next trip.  How much would they have to pay mercenaries to move the cargo?  Probably at least as much as the independant trader makes, and they would risk losing everything if something happened to ther mercenaries.


A large wooden item may sell in a shop for 90 coins in the north and 500 in the south, but that souther merchant doesn't pay his independant suppliers 500, closer to 130, so the profit isn't unreasonable.  A good haggler can make the profit margin larger, but my impression is that because of the danger of the journey most traders are not of the Merchant guild - you don't really need to be able to craft anything to be a trader, but you do need to be able to survive trips accross the known world.

Anyway, back to the south.  If you go out to the dunes to forage for rocks you'll come up with a lot of sandstone and a few other items.  This makes it seem like there is nothing of value in the south to forage for.  Not true!  There are places very near Allanak where more valuable stones, including obsidian and alabaster, can be found.  I can't tell you where, of course, but I just thought I'd spread a little hope.  

AC

[vroy]

Though I've never played in the North, going from people's description, I kinda like the contrast between North and South: The North is richer in flora and fauna and therefore it may be easier to operate independently--the South is harsher and more barren requiring people to band together to survive.  

This contrast could create very different views of life and ways of interacting--one would guess that intraclan cohesion would be very strong in the South with great importance placed on loyalty.  In the North, people would place more importance on individual expression.

Anyway, if there is a problem (and it sounds like there may not be one) here are my suggestions for getting more people South:

*introduce some new crimes in the North that are punishable by exile (I don't think it should be impossibly difficult to travel between North and South.  At least there should be a monthly caravan run where people can pay or work as a guard to make it safely from one area to another.)

*introduce some new resources in the South to lure people (I liked the spice idea, perhaps rubies, garnets, carnelian or something more exotic like sequins could be introduced)

*start an Academy of Medicine in the South to attract people and sell poison cures (I had a PC once that had this goal, but he died   )

[Gar]

I'm a longtime northerner who recently was introduced to the south for several months.  I'd say that the south is way too tough for a new player, I cannot even imagine it unless you were a thief or magiker.  Forget being a ranger or warrior, it would be near impossible to survive.  I came south with a very experienced character and house affiliations.  Even then, exploring outside the city was very harrowing.  

In my opinion, the south should be toned down a little and needs some more rewarding things to afford a PC a living.  The north is just about right and shouldn't be changed.

[spawnloser]

I'd say that the south is way too tough for a new player, I cannot even imagine it unless you were a thief or magiker.  Forget being a ranger or warrior, it would be near impossible to survive.  I came south with a very experienced character and house affiliations.  Even then, exploring outside the city was very harrowing.

You could just never leave the city.

[X-D]

HHhhmmm, It has been around a year since I have had a southern char, but I can say that it is(or was a year ago) quite possible for even a lone ranger/warrior to survive there outside the cities....but not one with less then around 5 days playing time I think, nor a newbie player....though I still think that a new player should start the first few charecters in Allanak

[SykotikGith]

As a person who has been playing in the North for several months now, I have a couple of things to say. I play a city-based character, so I'm not going to comment on the hunting and outside danger part of the discussion, I don't really know it. However, as far as politics go, it is there, -if- you know where to look, and you don't have to look that hard.

Before Tenneshi was closed, there was conflict between Tenneshi and Winrothol, as there should be. However, just because there are no Tenneshi PC's anymore, doesn't mean that all of the political intrigue is gone. It is there, and it is easy to get involved in. Believe me...the plotlines exist, but more often than not (IMO), they are player created, not IMM-run, at least until -after- they are started.

As far as the 'flavor' of the North. Someone, Jenred, I believe called the North "Happy Fun Land." It isn't. However, the relationships that people have in the North differ greatly from that found in the South. Allanak is a city ruled by fear, this is common knowledge. Tektolnes and his Templars are in charge, and they don't let anyone forget it. The nobles are much the same, when a person has complete control over your life, you tend to do whatever you can to obey them. Tuluk on the other hand, as many have said, is recently freed from the South. As far as I know, everything I'm saying can be pulled from the docs, so I don't think this is getting too IC, if it is, smack me down.    All the people in the North:  Templar, Noble, Commoner, all had to join together to rid themselves of their Allanaki oppressors. The Nobles were then able to come out of hiding, and the Templarate was able to rebuild. Then, to add to that feeling of camaraderie and brotherhood, everyone continued working together to rebuild the city...and that is still going on. The rule in Tuluk is one of respect and, while maybe not love, it certainly isn't fear. Nobles are still Nobles, but you tend to view them differently when you, or your parents helped keep them alive.

Allright, let me see...other points...Oh! The Byn. I am in agreement with those who say the Byn shouldn't be in the North, and I don't know how it was allowed. As far as I'm concerned, it should never have happened, but that too, is just my opinion.

I think that just about covers it for me, and while yes, I am playing in the North now, and know how to think like one...Allanak will always be home to me. That is where I got my start, and I intend to return eventually.

[Dyrinis]

Allanak & its surroundings have been made MUCH less harsh and MUCH more rewarding in the last few months.  I suggest you take another look.

Dyrinis

[Shinigami]

MUCH less harsh

*sniffles*

You say it like it's a good thing...

[krelin]

Don't be too sad, Shinigami....  you still have to be on your toes...  but at least there's a reason to go outside the gates, and it's not -instant- suicide now.    I'm pretty happy with the changes.

[Dan]

One of those infamous gith once disarmed my weapon "UP"... had a hell of a time after that since it didn't come back down.

I've heard that it lands in a nearby room... I never had time to check.

I enjoy the new code related to deposits and things very much so. It makes it neat, and miner roles are alot more played out and stuff.
And not seeing 40 scrab bodies at the gates is also reassuring.

[Dakkon Black]

I hope the south is not toned down an inch, if even perhaps we can get some tougher creatures in place down here please.

Heh, allright reasons are that the south an unhappy place like stated before its a freekin desert, and its tough. I love it tough and I hope it never goes softer. North is for softness. gooooo south!

[God]

Just because a few hardass PC warriors died doesn't mean that the gith should have free reign right outside the walls of Allanak. People farm outside Allanak, don't they? Then why can't you walk outside the gates and forage around, or travel to these farms?

One thing that bothers me is how people speak incessantly about vnpcs, but refuse to allow them to have any real impact in the game.

There are vnpc soldiers. They should be considered. Gith and powerful monsters should be pushed back if they are becoming too big of a problem. It just makes sense.

Personally, I haven't had too much experience in the South, except that my northern ranger died(wasn't alone) in the wilderness there very quickly. The North is a cakewalk in comparison, and that's the truth.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If the south has been toned down, that is good. If the north is still being tweaked, that is also good.

In my opinion, if you wish a tough place to play out of, simply pick Red Storm. To a lesser degree, also pick Luir's. Allanak and Tuluk, to me, should both be playable for a newbie independant or for a new character who is an independant, since these two cities are the primary sources for and contain the most opportunities for newbie instruction and character development. Never make it soft, but too hard is too hard, and that is simply a fact.

Older players who want a true challange should, as I said, start in Luir's or in Red Storm.

[Anonymous]

Well, I haven't been down south for a few RL months, but I started a character in Luir's who, through a lovely turn of events, found himself near naked, no food or water, and no mount...in the salt flats. My newb warrior WALKED his ass to 'Nak (more of stumbled around aimlessly until he found a road, picked a direction and followed it that way...), and survived to see the gates, with less than 2 days playing time. I then managed to eek out a living on my own in Nak, mostly killing scrabs which my warrior was dual wielding against within around 3 days playing time. Have scrabs been beefed up or something? Got himself a mount. He was taking down tarantulas/beetles within 5 days playing time, without too much pain. Also made MANY trips between Tuluk and 'Nak on his own. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to scratch out a living in that desert of a south, but I agree they should throw in a few more goudra/vestric type things, as scrab shells were really about the only thing he could manage to sell, and 95% of the time they already had too many..hence the trips to the north to sell them. All done solo. I don't think the south needs TOO much done to it, tone down the gith a bit mebbe, cut back on the number of nasty predators, toss in a few goudra-types...but as it is, unless the wildlife change was drastic in the south, it's not impossible to survive down there alone and in the wilds, if you're smart. Only reason he died was a duel to the death with a filthy, filthy elf.

[Shinigami]

We'll put it next to the smurf village and the newbie school... too many players are beginning to gauge 'success' in the game on how much coin their characters have or what they can kill, and ignoring character development in favor of skill/bank account development... I've seen rangers in the north put merchant family members to shame with their massive bank accounts.  *sighs*

Just remember, as long as there are ways to gain coin, there will always be templars to take it back.  Now, just waiting for that deflation to hit...

-Shinigami, Harsh Storyteller of Tektolnes

[5 day lifespan]

Wait, tone DOWN the Gith?  Are you high?  I was killing those solo gith like it was going out of style, now even in a group of five warriors Im looking around nervously, wondering when that next arrow or spear is going to come for me.
 For me, success is that I actually got HIRED.  In several weeks playing time, success will be the reputation my character earns, and how many clans want to kill/hire me.  Success for now is measured in days.  Each new day that dawns for my character that it roleplays, does its job, and lives is a mark for me.  Im damn proud of this one, I can only hope that I actually make it two weeks (first time).
 Back to the subject of Southron Ecology though, I think 'Nak is a dangerous and a safe place to live.  If you have a small group of other newbies, you can probably go scrab hunting in your fist day.  Provided you only run into scrab... mwahahaha.  I like the south the way it is, and from what Ive heard of those damn horrible acid spraying, paralyzing, auto-fleeing, claw toed giant tortoises Up North, Im glad I only have Gith, Scrab, Beetles, tarantulas and SILTHORRORS to contend with.  Um, I think the south is just fine, thanks.

5 Day Lifespan shudders in horror at the thought of silt horrors.

[SailorMars]

Wait, tone DOWN the Gith? Are you high? I was killing those solo gith like it was going out of style, now even in a group of five warriors Im looking around nervously, wondering when that next arrow or spear is going to come for me.

I agree, even with a skilled group the gith packs are very worthy (read deadly) opponents. However, it might be cool to have a few random single gith here and there, or a pair, etc. This would give solo hunters a chance to tangle with a gith or two without havin' to haul ass away from a group. Or, just keep them in those packs so they will always be fully feared.

One thing I really enjoy is the occasional horror or mek that wanders nice and close to 'Nak. That makes things very interesting.

Edit: Yes I know certain types of gith go around solo, but maybe making that more varied would spice things up.

[Twilight]

If you haven't been around 'Nak for the last few weeks since the change, then your knowledge is dated.  I personally really like the improvements that have been made as far as NPC's are concerned, as well the few terrain features.  Its nice to have places I now consider dangerous and not as dangerous, as opposed to everyplace being pretty much the same.

Yeah, you can live pretty decently... at least eatting regularly with the new additions to the terrain. Some people have even become wealthy... but then of course there is the dangers which are now comparable to the reward should you succeed.

Bravo ?Dyrinis? I think it was.

[Gronk]

If you ask me, and I have no idea why you would, I'd say it's a trap.

Yup, a trap. I'd bet they're plannin' something BIG, baby! I'd say there's gonna be some kinda catastrophe, or disaster, or robot invasion(not likely, that one...) that's gonna hit the North like a ton of feathers (which is just as heavy as a ton of bricks. what they lack in hardness and head-crushery, they more than make up for in inhalability. nasty when they get in your throat.) and make everybody scramble like scared lizards, to be picked off by roving bands of halflings.

...

By making this prediction, I may have saved the north from further ruin! or maybe I've just forced the Imms to come up with something bigger and badder...