The south...

[creeper386]

Acctually, the funny thing I've seen, is the norths foragable food isn't as easiely got then in the south, unless you go to places that it's alittle cheesy as well as ICally abit dangerous(not codedly but RP wise) to forage. Maybe I haven't ventured far enough foraging but I've gone west east and south and wasn't much food to forage, and didn't do much to fill you up and isnt' craftable for begining cooks. In the south though if you can find a time that right outside the gate there isn't hordes of bugs, it's quite easy to find food, go alittle further and you can find an abundance of foragable food. And most all of it's craftable.

I find this REALLY odd, but I think if foraging was easier in the north it'd feel even worse, already there are tons of little things to kill for food, it's easy to avoid halflings and a good amount of the place you only run into one gortok which aren't too hard even for a newbie ranger. You can acctually relax some. The main threat in most of the area about Tuluk is PCs which are quite distinguishable from animal NPCs. Bahemet? Most the time they aren't around, they are from a different region for the most part and are only about if they chase someone in, a 'met outside the gates? Well a whole bunch of people band up and go kill it. Everyone works together for the most part. Even if there is "hidden" turmoil it doesn't work well when everyone bands together, and add to that a northern Byn? Just not that long ago Byn got abused when they went up there, and now the Byn wants to set up base and everyone and their grandmother thinks it's a grand idea or at least doesn't voice anything or do anything about it? It doesn't matter how much "hidden" intrigue, when the outside is incredibly unArmegady... And Like I've said, I've tried to start contraversy, and I get the feeling I'm the odd man out, everyone looks at me funny ICally people say no thats the wrong thing to do, he may be a southerner but he's lived here for a year or two now, he's one of us or whatever the case may be. I like the social feel and the 'idea' behind the north, but it feels wrong. Like in the south when EVERYONE is nice with magickers and 'rinthi rats just because noone wants problems feels wrong. Just like a character that doesn't fit with the theme feels wrong, the pretty, blonde haired knock outs that somehow got enough food and hygiene habbits to keep up everything she gots when she was raised in the 'rinth... It feels wrong. The concept behind the north is wrong, and I'd love to play there if it had more of a grittier, dangerous feel. The only time that it's really dangerous in the north is when you go looking for trouble. In the south trouble hunts you down, bitch slaps you a couple times and leaves you dead under a layer of sand.

Creeper who is done.

Well when I can fill a pack with roots and tubers without even leaving the Scaien (Old north) that was a good deal of easy. Its still just as possible a few steps into the grasslands, or in the groves all around the western gate.

Obviously foraging is hard at first, but it isnt always.

Yeah, in my few trips up there I got approached to "go hunt", someone
even used the term "group up to go out" which was a horrid Rom flashback that I tried to just get away from quickly.

Seems its not uncommon to join up with your fellow man, go fight off some things then return to split up the spoils. In the south you go out hunting with someone and your sure as heck going to see them turning on
you the second you engate a scrab

[tortall]

I completly agree with most everyone. I used to hate the north. Mostly because it was under populated. I loved Allanak. But after being able to do NOTHING there with me 30 day warrior but tavern sit, it was time for her to move north. I mean, come ON! A 30 day warrior here! If she went into the sands she'd be killed by those fire ants. The trantulas and scrab were easy enough, and she could take on two trantulas and a scrab or two at once with no problem. Even regular gith were ok. Though they always ran once she got their swords away... But one those urber gith started comming further south? Or the groupes of FIVE gith? Forget hunting. Move north. Heck, she could -almost- take on one halfling hunter... Or is the scout harder? If they didn't poison her of course. But gith? Forget it! Yes, it made a nice divider between the north and south, but it made it impossable for anyone to live there.

I personally can't think of any ideas to help this. I completly plan on my next char to be southern, and my current one to travel there as much as possable. But really... What can you do there besides tavern sit?


-Tortall, who finally got bored of the south.

[Anonymous]

But really... What can you do there besides tavern sit?

Hunt/travel in groups.  Which I don't particularly like because I prefer solo hunting.

Hunt/travel in groups. Which I don't particularly like because I prefer solo hunting.

Afraid not.
With the Byn decommisioned it seems there will be little to no decent fighters in Allanak that dont belong to a clan or guard group. Which incidently enough dont allow their people to go 'hunting' in impossible conditions. A person without proper training, which now seems only available in clans cant just journey out into the wastes. Ive seen groups of
like 4 newbie types with little to no combat training go out, and ALL come
back near dead, one maybe is, I ask what they fought and they say a
snake, or a jozhal or something. Forget a scrab or beetle.

In the north however, even a freelance warrior can work themselves up to greatness fighting gurth, kylori, small animals, using archery, whatever.
The south just isnt designed that way. and why would the experienced
northern fighters come down? to bask in the sun of the people that they
fought a war to be free of?

[RideTheDivide]

From what I've seen in the North, the key to a vibrant economy is a place where merchants can flourish.  If they have access to good materials, they can hire hunters and gatherers to keep them supplied.

As has been stated, the South is a really tough place for merchants.  The North is very easy because of all the wood and the easily gathered stones.  The one advantage of Nak is the availabilty of silk.

I'm not sure if there are any places to find good stones in the South in relative safety.  If there aren't, I'd love to see that added.  Also, I think it would be great to reduce the price one can fetch for logs in the North to encourage traders to make shipments of wood to Nak.

[Wondering Poet]

In the north however, even a freelance warrior can work themselves up to greatness fighting gurth, kylori, small animals, using archery, whatever.
The south just isnt designed that way. and why would the experienced
northern fighters come down? to bask in the sun of the people that they
fought a war to be free of?

Maybe I'm getting confused by what you are trying to say here Jenred.  From this point it seems to me you are saying that the south is too hard and it provides no steady progression for a freelance warrior to gain in skill.  At the same time you are saying that the north provides this steady progression.

Anyways... thanks for the agreement at least everyone, but I think the
point got skewered into the "The north is fine, the south is too hard."
which isnt what I meant at all. The north is not fine, its not "Armageddon"
its "Happy fluffy land", might as well go play Fourlands or Southlands or
whatever those are called... they are just as happy and fluffy, everyone
living in peace in the forest.

Now here you've said that it is the south that is fine but rather it is the north that is too easy.  I'm not seeing your logic.  The north provides a method for a newbie character to go out and gradually increase the difficulty of his prey - in a manner that provides only a small risk of running into an insta-kill npc.  If I grasp at what you are trying to say - this is a bad thing?  Instead, a newbie should instantly die outside of Tuluk?

Looking at what you've said, I would have thought you were argueing that the south provides an environment that is so brutal that only a strong and buff character can survive.  Yet such a buff character cannot develop in this environment without the assistance of a clan.  Therefore making a living in the south is untennable unless clanned.

Therefore, it seems to me that the issue lies with the south and not necessarily with the north?  Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north?  And by "a little" I do mean a little.  

As for how people interact and react - the North has been free for 15 IC years.  That means the people in the north all remember the occupation of the south.  Every single person in the north knows about the occupation and lived through it (excepting those under 15 years of age).  Therefore, everyone who is of playable age, remembers that they are all 'brothers and sisters' joined in their victory.  Sure there are differences, and these are becomming greater all the time, but the way of the north is subtle as opposed to brutal.  

Nobles in the north are treated with respect and they are not feared - it is rule through love versus rule through fear.  If you do not like it - then don't go there, but it doesn't make the north any less 'armageddon' than the south.  The environment is different.  The way to discredit someone is different - it is subtle - it involves veiled words of threat and insult.   By reviving the Poet's Circle - the north gave itself a public political arena where the bards can do personality assassination.  This then effects that person's political power, which makes them less likely to be able to do what they want...

Very different - yes.  Is it not Armageddon?  No.  It's just different.

[gfair]

Perhaps Arm has reached that point in which the great social experiments take place - the great wall of the North Road?


Or the other thought I had - trim some of the clans.  I mean.... Fale in the South?  Just clashes too much, the North is where the party happens.

First char I created after the North rose again, I thought "Why in the world would I EVER make a char in the South again?"


But pretty soon the IMMs will do what they've already started doing, to some extent - Nerfing the North.  Already there have been changes, though I doubt many people would know about them.


It's a balance - the South used to be awesome and the North was a splintered community.  Now the North is too easy.


What would I do?  Eliminate a couple southern Houses, a few tribes, and a couple Northern groups.  The Byn should be a South-only group, and Salarr's presence in the North should be limited to merchants.  There shouldn't be any Kurac group up there either, perhaps again just an NPC presence in the Tooth.

Yeah, those groups all add a lot to the atmosphere, but we have to deal with this fractured player base one way or another.  And since there are multiple groups that do the same thing but in small numbers, eventually you have to ask yourself - why?

Personally, I don't know much about the tribes at all, but it seems like they are a great scattering of PCs all about.  No one group should ever be isolated with great difficulty from the rest, it simply breaks up too many RP possibilities.


But in the end, this is an IMM issue, I'm positive they are aware of it and will try to do something about it.[/url]

You hit it right on the head wandering poet.

While the north provides steady progression for both merchants and warriors, the south does not. Making it an obvious choice for creating a pc.
Go somewhere where you can naturally progress and have fun, or somewhere where its extremely hard, almost impossible to.

My 'logic' is that PCs are going where its easier to live, play, survive and roleplay. Making people that -want- to play in the harshness of the south alone and without interaction, and thus having a hard time advancing, living, playing, etc.

Therefore, it seems to me that the issue lies with the south and not necessarily with the north? Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north? And by "a little" I do mean a little

The two are intertwined, around the common subject of: Players. As Ive
stated before, alot of the easiness and relative 'sucess' of the north lies in
the larger pbase they've garnered. The large supply of materials makes
merchants and 'sid more availabe, then able to hire guards, do all that, all
while naturally progressing in the comfortable world around them.

In the south there is little of anything of value, so merchants are few,
Salaar and Kadius both learned the money is north, and thus there is little
of either in the South, by extension no pc guards of theirs, and then so on
down the chain.

Perhaps a little tweaking down of the brutal factor in the south and a little tweaking up of the danger factor in the north? And by "a little" I do mean a little

Exactly. Perhaps balancing out the polar opposite would allow more PCs to
return to the south, then by extension create more chances to roleplay,
have fun, etc.

But as the north continues to prosper it like sucks PCs in. People can only
stay in the south so long before they realize: Why am I here? Conflict RP
will only tide Allanaki's over til there is no one left to conflict with... then
who knows.

[Bakha]

I'm enjoying this thread, so please continue, but I do wish to comment on one thing. I believe the people pointing to the cyclical nature of the playerbase (and the posters that pointed to this have been around for a long time) are on the right track.

In my opinion the Northlands doesn't have more players because it is easier to survive there (although it is easier to survive there, I'll not argue against that). The reason it has more players is because there is a sense of excitement about all of the new things going in up there. Many of the people playing in the Northlands, from what I've seen, have been around for a while. They've played all over, they're likely a little jaded. They've been in all the clans, they've read all the documentation for those clans, they've explored the Known World, they've been there, done that. Enter the Northlands: suddenly there's an entirely new place and culture to explore.

New clans, new documentation for those clans, new areas, a chance for discovering something new in this game that they've been playing forever. Suddenly everything is fresh, there's new avenues of roleplaying cropping up everywhere. Northern Bard? Woah, there's a concept I've never explored or played before. House Winrothol? I wonder what their documentation and estate looks like? I think I'll make a PC there next! Etc.. etc. Eventually, though, the newness will wear off. Some people will like the North, others won't. Things will even out again.

Now, my comments above are in no way intended to detract from the other arguments made. I believe there's something to the argument that the Northlands is too easy, too fluffy, not quite gritty enough. That it is, perhaps, in danger of losing some of the feel that makes Armageddon great. Believe me, this has been a fear of mine since I first started helping out with the project up there and writing up some of the clan documentation. And while I agree with all of the people that point out that things aren't necessarily as they appear on the surface, that intrigue and danger lie below, I also realize that the hidden intrigue, oppression and danger can only remain hidden for so long before they may dissappear altogether, leaving only the fluffy surface. However, I do believe that more conflicts, more intrigue, more danger will begin to come into play as New Tuluk matures. Certainly it isn't going to have the same flavor as Allanak, but it will be there.

As a final thought, please continue with the discussion on the harshness of the Southlands and the Northlands. I don't really play as much as I should, so it's interesting for me, personally, to read this and see the ideas for how to improve play.

Cheers,
Bakha

[Anonymous]

And while I agree with all of the people that point out that things aren't necessarily as they appear on the surface, that intrigue and danger lie below, I also realize that the hidden intrigue, oppression and danger can only remain hidden for so long before they may dissappear altogether, leaving only the fluffy surface.

I'm not trying to kiss ass here.  But thank you Bakha for wording what I've been trying to say for a while now in a clearer way than I think I've been able to.

Rubbing your hands together in the shadows, planning to kill your enemy if they happen to live for a RL year is a valid tact, but when everyone conducts themselves in that way there is no open conflict.

When most everyone pussyfoots around the opinions of others, or act with discretion it just gets....boring.  All that's left is empty talk about how their day went while everyone sits around waiting for the next Imm-sponsored RPT or people having mudsex.

I get enough inane conversation at work and enough masterbation in the shower to take care of those two things.

[Thrill-Killa]

I've killed two Pc's in the last week. Maybe you should get on the ball CRW. Yes in the north.

Okay, well on Bakha-ian request... I will bring up some more! Bwahah.
Just kidding Ill go easy.... sorta.

*The north has advantages of course, because of its natural place
in the game world. ICly it IS a richer, lusher, more hospitable place then
the south. I understand and acknowledge that. But seems the -dangers-
are underplayed. They removed a heaping helping of danger with the
removal of Blackmoon/wing, whatever it was called that pillaged the roads
and made the world unsafe. Halflings seem to not be as present or
dangerous as they once were. One tembo in the near vicinity of Tuluk
doesnt seem to compare to the 3 scrab, 2 groups of fire ants, 4+ beetles,
3 snakes, then hidden tarantula's you'd be likely to encounter a few paces
out into the wastes. Now I -heard- through the grapevine that these were
made to offset the natural sentiment in new players to hack-and-slash,
and to balance out the economy, blah, blah blah. Where is the enforcing
of this same sentiment in the north? I -heard- or read somewhere that the
game was designed so that people -cant- just go out smashing away in
their first few minutes, and that people would logicially have to be trained,
and actually develop their characters before trying to go out fighting. This
used to be well and good... but seems the north is gradually lessening this
policiy to -keep- people there. Never see anymore bahamet raids on the
east gate. Halflings sitting two leagues out the western gate... barely even
any danger on the road. Whereas in the south you'd be sure as hell to be
fighting for your life with any attempt to journey out of your the normal
scenery... In any direction. Gith to the north and east, beetles, scrab, fire
ants, snakes, tarantulas to the south and west. There are no 'small' beasts
like in the north. Nothing for the new to the game to do. You need to be
trained to get anything done really...

*Economy, as I stated above, obviously the north's econonmy
SHOULD be wealthier then the south... but its getting a bit out of hand. The
items you'd think would be available in the south... jade, obsidian, silk,
wider variety of stone then marble and jasper, spice, gems, etc, all arnt
there. Obsidian predominantly comes from the north nowadays, along with
jade, and all types of other goods. The south almost literally has nothing
to offer the north that can be scrounged by the common person. Of course
you can sell goods from npc merchants... but what sense does this make:
Buying an obsidian sword from Salaar in the south and selling it to salaar
in the north, or vice versa: Buying a wooden shield from Salaar in the
north and selling it to salaar in the south. Its the same company. Thats
like buying a diamond ring from someone in New York, then selling it back
to that person in LA for an extremely raised price. Forageble to the say
1st week person in the south are: stones, salt, one plant maybe, and then
the very rare piece of precious stone. This is all if you can survive the
great amount of beasties prowling the areas. So say you do successfully
find some stone or something, make a cup maybe? Sell it for 1 sid or less,
you still cant afford food or water, and will probably die. It just isnt viable.
-Now in the south. A first week woodcrafter can cut down a few limbs of a
tree, after a few days of learner, probably with a teacher, make a box,
block, or any of a number of things and sell them and make good profits,
even in the north. Canes, whatever. Not to mention in the south where
they'd make even more.

So to recap... for independants: Its easier to be a fighter in the north, and
also merchant types. Now lets move on to the un-independants.

* A guard of a house in the south has a slight advantage, but the
common consensus is that they are dealing with no one for a good deal of
time. But still get paid, and can live on. But 'just living' is only fun for so
long. So they go looking for maybe tavern interaction. There is some, and
it might get them by. This is pretty similar in the north Ive heard, so we
can call this one a tie. Itd probably be a little better in the north for a clan
guard, but its close to call.

* However, clanned merchants are entirely different. I wont even
go deeply into this because I already talked about economy. Its just really
hard to be a southern merchant...

*So now... solutions.
The south could be tweaked. Maybe add some small critters. baby spiders,
scrab, beetles. Carrion birds of some type? Desert vultures maybe?
desert mice, Ive seen those in descriptions. Wild brakahan lizards, wild
chalton... I mean even their description:

Chalton : These six-legged antelope-like creatures are perhaps the most common source of leather and horn in the Southlands, as they are typically raised as domestic beasts, having adapted to the bleak & horrifically dry southern environment.

You'd think thered be some out there that you could maybe tame and sell
to people in town? Or just kill for their leather and horn. Maybe have
chalton flocks... I dont know.
Even just a few additions would then boost the general chain. Desert
vulture claws used to make knives that could be sold to Salaar, mice skin
tends to be fairly exotic, and people could make scarves or something, I
dont know. Then beaks. Beetle carapace should be more workable.
Chalton hide armor produceable, components sellable to hide shops.

Wider variety of stones. Marble and jasper even seem rare for a 'rocky
wasteland' foraging in a rocky wasteland for a good deal of time and
coming up empty seems a bit sad. Maybe be able to find granit, larger
chunks of sandstone... the type used for buildings. Im not a rock expert
or I could suggest something else, but for an area described as being
abundant with rocks, only finding commonly two types seems rough. Then
with new types of stones findable, there might be a desire to buy these to
make things, or just have shopkeepers actually buy them.

* Farming. Maybe make it possible to farm. This would add some
flavor to the lands. I dont know how seasons work in the game, but if you
plant, tend and wait a good while you should be able to grow at least
something. I mean supposedly there are farms and such down there.

* Spice. For being such a profitable and widely used commodity in
the north, there seems to be little in the south... where I believe it comes
from, silt deposits and what not. It should be a little more common, this
would at least draw spice runners from the north to deal with some of the
hard attituded Southerners.

Anyways, there is some more fuel to the discussion.

[chang]

[BLURB] Weren't there farms at one point?  Got burned by gith? [/BLURB]

Having a lot more spice patches seems like a great idea to me.

Would be great rewards for your risk. You could make some sids without even having to fight any death machines, at least theoretically. Might tend to bring more folks down south and to red storm. I just thought that idea in particular was good.

Since the south is so barren I think that every single piece of an animal would be used. I think if you skin a silt flyer you should get gobs of materials, every one of them craftable. From everything you should get quite a few items, (when your good at skinning you get gobs)

[creeper386]

As I've said before, maybe it was just an odd thing, but right off the bat I could forage lots of food in the south, even in sand dunes. Went north could find some food but it seemed harder.

But for the most part, I don't see how the north would be "richer" then the south. According to everything, obsidian is what the currency is made out of. Normally the source of currency of the same amount, is worth AT least as much as the coin. According to everything, Allanak has the only major source of obsidian. Sure the common man in the north might be richer, but overall the south should be ALOT richer. Although this spreads open the gap between the upper class and lower class, noone minds because they've been raised to except it, and it's because they Highlord said the nobles are better and commoners aren't. The people except this COMPLETELY.

Yes, the north should be more abundant in food and in water. This also means there should be a more abundance of herbavores, which brings in a more abundance of meat eaters. The north SHOULD be more populated in the south. Maybe it is and the few strong things kill everything else but it seems that there are a few powerful things, and alot of easy to avoid and small things. Honestly, halflings and bahamet aren't any trouble. Quite avoidable. Gortok are tough but if your careful and aren't too stupid you only run into one maybe two at a time. One a newbie fighter person can take, two you can get scratched up good, but normally can flee or kill both if you have abit of practice.

Along with everyone working together. It's understandable that everyone works together because they just over through the South... But they JUST over through the south. They shouldn't be buddy buddy with southerners and there STILL should be racial conflict, even if it's on a minor scale. Honestly I don't see how the north would allow the Byn to set up base. Even if it's northerners that come in and recruit and build the Byn place... They left and joined a HOSTILE orginization. I don't see how they can be so readily excepted... It's said Byn were killed after the war, with that type of sentiment, fifteen years isn't alot of time just to throw everything out the window because these bynners are NORTHERNERs. Things don't work that way. Fifteen years isn't a long time at all. I can see even a hundred years being not much time. Even after short one year OCCUPATIONs countries don't turn over that quickly. Heck, most the world dislikes countries and organizations because of the Crusades that happened four-five hundred years ago? People try saying real world arguements don't have a place... But people don't forgive and forget that easiely, SPECIALLY when their land and religion is involved. Is the North so naive that they think the South won't ever try anything again? Come on... It really doesn't make much sense.

For the most part, I'm guessing it's not really the north being easier then the south, but when the south is dramatically difficult, but it certainly adds onto everything else, the lax RP, the ability for room to do what you want. Just the fact that there is lots of decent housing and the 'sid going about to buy them is a BIG incentive. Honestly I don't see any of my characters ever even able to afford a house in the south, and the prospect of a house is the main thing that would draw me north. Just because I like to do my own thing. It allows you to be creative and everything. On top of this Tuluk also has *gasp* a set up social systems. Social gatherings. Social in the south is sitting in taverns or going out in a group to kill things. The occasional gladiator match thrown in. I honestly think one truthfully played Fale noble could help add social interaction in the south, but everyones against that.

The problem isn't the ease of life, I think it's the ease of RP. In the north you have all sorts off OOC freedom, compared to in the south it seems, and I think THATs what doesn't fit into Armageddon. Not that playing in the south stiffles character creativity. It just difficult to advance and acheive. In the north everyone eats well and has all sorts of money. Part of Arm is the scrounging, climbing up that wobbly ladder, knowing any time someone can step right over your or you can just be thrown from the ladder to land on the spikes below. I don't know. Thats just how I feel about it, and although I like the idea of the north, I don't like how it's being played. Kind of like my idea of religion and the populaces opinion on Teknoltes and how noone cares about it or thinks the populace beleives Tek and his templars are part of an oppresive regime that everyone hates and is afraid of.

Creeper

[spicegod]

I had a group that tried having spice in allanak. We were a group that brought spice from red storm up to nak. It was much harder  than expected. Every single nakki citizen (even the seedier ones) turned us into templars! If templars are hated and fear in nak why would its citizens run off like little good boys everytime they see something wrong? It just doesnt make sense.

[Savak]

I have a couple of quick comments, which I'll preface by saying that Bakha has brought this discussion to the staff board and we're all having some input.  I also think that overall the posts & discussions here have been good, meaning some of my comments are directed at only a few people at past moments in time.


I've seen the use of terms like "clear the roads" and it makes me think of an H'n'S player clearing a zone.  No d00d th@t on3z [L3@R!!!  This has been a commonly used term over the years, but keep in mind that it's completely inappropriate to Armageddon.  Have they driven back a few predators?  Perhaps sent a small group (of many) of potential raiders back to their hideout to lick their wounds?  Are these dangers not likely to return at -any given moment-?  I just think "clear" gives entirely the wrong impression, particularly to newer players.

Hunting.  Being a lone or independent type, particularly one who classifies themselves as a "hunter," is not meant to be easy.  Indeed, it is meant to be very difficult.  Further, hunting (at least for the sane) wouldn't include things like gith or, usually, large beasts.  That's what the careful would-be independent/lone hunter is all about -- picking and choosing targets very carefully, and doing their damndest to not get caught by anything else.  At the same time, the large predators and humanoid raiders are doing THEIR damndest to catch easy prey.  A lone -anything-, particularly a mid-sized humanoid or smaller, pretty well qualifies.  I don't see a problem with hunting or travel being difficult for a loner, per se.

Travel.  Travel is meant to be very difficult, particularly when traversing virtually the ENTIRE KNOWN WORLD.  By this, I specifically refer to the trip between Allanak & Tuluk.  In terms of game mechanics the trip may not be terribly long.  But Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath are theoretically separated by IC weeks+ of travel, across rough terrain and through potentially hostile territory.  When PC's run a kank back and forth half a dozen times or more in an RL day (about an IC week), one of the ways we have tried to slow this is by adding excitement along the way, usually in the form of combat.  We've been considering other ways to achieve this effect, without resorting to making mounts next to useless or adding "filler" rooms which otherwise serve little purpose.  Or making the roads so dangerous that ppl die or run faster, rather than traveling in larger groups and moving more methodically, taking breaks along the way.

Whether the South is "too" difficult or the North "too" easy is another matter, although I don't think the solution is to make bigger badder DOOM THINGIES in one area and removing them from the other.  Good changes are more dispersed and inventive.

-Savak

[Angela Christine]

I think you have to be careful about harshenizing the north.  Part of what makes the areas near the city relatively safe is that there are a buttload of PCs (who cut their teeth on vestrics and tregils) out clearing the roads.  Right after a reboot there are plenty of dangerous critters, but within a day they have been thinned to the point where they are fairly easy to avoid.  When the high population in the north wanes again there will be fewer uber-hunters clearing the roads and forests near the city, and the harshness will bounce back naturally.

Before the snakes, tarantulas and uber-gith down south, it wasn't too bad if you waited a day or so after a reboot to go foraging.  Various clans and groups would go out and do a little scrab hunting, so after a day the scrabs were thinned out to the point where you could avoid them.  The agressive predators have gotten more plentiful while the PC hunters have gotten less plentiful, makeing the area around the cities more dangerous.  Forget foraging for rocks, it's safer to run down the salt-ivory road and forage in the salt flats.  You run the risk of encountering a Mek or Salt worm, but the predator population density is much lighter.  Even running through the rinth and down into the sewers seems like a more viable foraging technique than going outside the city, but you have to have a character that would have some reason to try it.    

Anyway, fewer PCs in the north would make the north more dangerous.  More PCs in the south would would make the south safer.  Catch 22?

Angela Christine

[crymerci]

From a materials gathering aspect, I can say it is indeed harder to find everything in the South than it is in the North. Except sandstone. That valuable gem is more common in the South. Oh, and salt and spice, but I've never heard of anyone making a living gathering either, so anyone who tries must die pretty quick.

Creeper.. I do agree that roots are perhaps slightly easier to find in the South, but a) there are the southern dangers to compensate for and b) you can forage other food in near-complete safety in the North.

[Moe]

Being a southern merchant who is successful, I can safely say it _IS_ possible.. however my char is also a extremely well established merchant, and has the connections and support needed to thrive..

That being said, I can definately see how being a newbie merchant in the south could be extremely hard to do, as there really isn't jack shit to craft thats even remotely easy or cheap to get. Most people arn't really interested in hiring merchants.. (I myself very rarely hire anyone, mostly because I barely have enough business to keep my char active, let alone having stuff to dish off to other chars)

The south is slowing down, and most of the 'action' down there is political within the city. There is a very established player base down there though, and the political intrigue can be much better than what I have witnessed/heard about up north. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the players that ARE in Allanak for the most part now, are long lived chars, that have a strong history, and a strong grasp on the history and the politics of the city. Wheras up north, with everything being renewed in the past 15 IC years.. people are kind of unsure as to thier specific roles in socioty.. and thier hasn't really been enough time to get a good base of political intrigue.  Add to that the fact that almost anyone can prosper very well in the north, it doesn't make for the enviroment that leads to a lot of political stryfe.

But I also definitely agree that the game  is/was/always has been on a cyclical cycle... right now the south is slow, and the north is thriving. I'm sure soon enough, people will get sick of the north, and start making more chars down south.

-Moe The Schmoe
:evil:  :twisted:

I like to think the system will cycle back, and am hopeful it am... but Im also not so sure because of how things are going. The north has remarkable potential for peaceful, successful, and not-so-violent RP. Alot of new people that come from Muds where food doesnt matter, fighting is common, and all that would much rather be up there. The cycle of things wasnt so major back when Tuluk was in ruins, because the bulk of new people didnt like going up there because it was fairly empty of pcs.

Now 'New' Tuluk is like a large place that easy to thrive in. So I fear the cycle will be broken, and the staff and players will begin to focus more on the north to incorporate the things they like of Allanak and the south, to keep people in the north. I  mean throw a little of the Allanak 'harshness' political intrigue, shady underhanded life and you'd take another heaping helping of people up there too.

I guess Ill just be hopeful that Muk and the dragon have another disagreement, and my beloved backwater and country-like north will return ^_^

[halfbreed]

Just one more voice to pipe in here...  speaking as someone who USED to know the game inside and out, then returned after many RL years hiatus, I find it funny that people think the north is too easy.

For someone who knows the game or who have friends who can give you lots of pointers, yes, it can be ridiculously easy.  But take away that fertile ground and you subject yourself to ever-dwindling PC populations again.  You NEED a place like Tuluk so newer folks have even half a chance to survive, w/out needing to instantly join a clan as some lowset-rank peon who's RP is going to be limited to moving about like an automaton, whenver his seargent barks orders.

As AC said, I too believe Nak has just been made way too hard.  This harshness does have it's appeal, but it had better be replaced with a draw as well.  I don't thinke the North is nearly the cakewalk people make it out to be, considering in the month (RL) that I've been back, I've seen at least a dozen corpses now... in one evening I found 3 separate corpses... obviously of new players who quickly found their deaths.

I'm very much in favor of making things harder by using PC-based solutions rather than super-deadly-uber-NPCs-style tactics.  (Mainly, have more Imm-driven or encourage player-driven plots which set people against each other.)  Start up a new and very active raider clan up north.  The Templars are easier on you up there?  Fine... make things very easy on thieves too, tone the crim-code down so that everything that isn't nailed down to your own body is likely to get stolen.  Make the houses wage war on each other, and make sure people get caught in the crossfire.  For gods sakes, don't turn the north into a barren wasteland where the only rule outside is monstrous deadly creatures that wander around mindlessly killing PCs, like it is in the south.  I don't think that will help a thing.

[Stroker]

First, lets remember that about a year ago Tuluk wasn't all that full either. In fact it was about as empty as Luir at many points in time. The taverns were almost always empty or full of one or two people. Then the remodeling came and it turned Tuluk into Allanak, only like you said easier. That is why everyone if flocking there, because it is Allanak only easier. But, I am sure it will all even out when the imms begin to remodel Allanak in some way.

[Tlaloc]

Afraid not.
With the Byn decommisioned it seems there will be little to no decent fighters in Allanak that dont belong to a clan or guard group. Which incidently enough dont allow their people to go 'hunting' in impossible conditions

The Byn has been decommisioned? This is news to me, as currently there are two active recruiters in both city-states. Now the only problem is people actually logging on long enough to play, instead of logging in, looking around, realizing its Nekrete, and logging out.

-Tlaloc