Roleplaying against thieves

[Hymwen]

I want to address an issue that I've met again and again. My favorite guild is pickpocket so I play it often, and if anyone want to complain about twink thieves, you should try being at the other end. Surprisingly many people will go to extreme OOC-motivated lengths to prove someone a thief or to make themselves immune, even if it makes no sense ICly, or comes at the expense of realism. If you ever so much as emote very vaguely during a theft, or fail a peek attempt, you might as well move to a different town because due to the relatively low playerbase, you're a lot more visible among people than any random Amos would be in a 500.000-people city-state, and a surprising number of people suddenly notice you all the time and take unreasonable interest in you just because you're one PC out of twenty instead of 1/500.000.

At the risk of breaking IC information rules (an imm can edit my post if they see fit), I've had an experience where I stole (succesfully) from a PC and emoted brushing past them in a crowded tavern, something that should be happening constantly to everyone in the room. The next day I was a known thief to just about every PC in the city, and people were reacting as if I was the only thief and that it was something unheard of.

Unless you want thieves to stop emoting altogether, and use only code in their play, please play more realistically and be more responsible in choosing what your character would notice and how they would deal with it. Yes if you catch a thief you're fully entitled to playing a pissed off character, and yes you're allowed to tell your buddies (ICly), but in a city-state full of poverty, a suspected thief would normally not be the main subject among gossippers unless said thief was an important noble's aide or something similar. I'm not asking you to ignore all but actual failed theft attempts, but please be more aware of your environment, what your character would notice, if they would expect precisely the 34th person to brush past them to be a thief, and are you really going through and checking your pack, your various belt-pouches, your cloak, your pants pocket and your three sheaths every time someone comes in physical contact with you?

Also, if your character suspects/knows somebody is a thief, use watch realistically. It is probably not realistic for your character to watch a certain other person at all times, week after week, regardless of what you're doing. I have had people who would perpetually watch me on every occasion, despite the fact they were across a crowded tavern and in deep conversation, emoting doing all kinds of other things that would make watching someone closely quite impossible. Just because you can make yourself practically immune to theft with a single no-risk command does not mean you should do it no matter what. Play responsibly and realistically and perhaps thieves will start doing the same.

[seriously]

All valid points, but I think you should not be afraid to use hemote.

[X-D]

And my reply is...

Bah humbug. Like many RP complaints, though yours "might" Be legit, you simply cannot know it is.

I've had PCs, for reasons of thier own accuse people of being thieves, mindbenders, mages whatever without at all knowing if they really are, or caring.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard.

[Hymwen]

All valid points, but I think you should not be afraid to use hemote.

I'm not afraid to use hemote. However, one thing that players complained about in the past was that thieves were playing in a way where targets never knew it happened, thus creating one-sided roleplay. Hemotes have a very small chance of being noticed, you might as well not do it if your goal is to include the target and make it interesting for both parties. I've wanted to try that, but have been fiercely discouraged by many players' reactions. The point of my post was that if players want thieves to be something other than items disappearing from your inventories now and then, they shouldn't use all means (often unrealistic and unreasonable) to combat them. Stick to what makes sense for your character.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

I think I was very deliberate in explaining that if it actually makes sense for your character, watching/accusing is just fine. It looks to me like you're presuming what my thief characters are so that your argument makes sense - one of the things I wanted to address, as explained above, is situations where people are using watch unreasonably and not roleplaying accordingly. Yes I have been watched by people who were playing cards and watching bards and even crafting in the corner, and yes I have experienced it happening for IC months on every occasion where my character met theirs, even though all mine did was fail a peek attempt once.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard.

You're assuming that my thief characters are wearing dark, hooded cloaks and footpads, and sneaking in and out of taverns. I specifically avoid that, yet because there are only so many guilds and because it's often easy to recognize at least half of them simply by their equipment or job, anything that doesn't fall into that category is often suspected unreasonably because there's no "commoner" or "no-guild" option. Some people are, perhaps unconciously, thinking "so it's not a warrior, carries no weapons, doesn't work for any clans and isn't wearing anything craftable. Must be a thief". You might have the luxury of having your guild easily determined by your appearance, but it would make absolutely no IC sense for my character to start wearing desert gear or chitin armor and toting swords or bows or sewing kits just so people wouldn't automatically suspect that he/she is a thief. Looking at my thief characters, the only thing I can see that would make anyone suspect it at first glance is the fact that they're not wearing anything that confirms that they're something else.

[Armaddict]

One of the issues that I personally don't mind occasionally being called a twink.

Sometimes you try to play and people screw you over for it, or you play IC but without emotes and such, and they say you screwed them.

It's just like raiding.  Neither side can really trust the other to use what you give them responsibly.  Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it also -doesn't- happen, and when it's not handled in a cool way, someone always gets fucked.

[X-D]

I'm assuming nothing, Please, read and understand a post before replying.

Here, let me help you.

And my reply is...

Bah humbug. Like many RP complaints, though yours "might" Be legit, you simply cannot know it is. (Only the other player and staff know)
I've had PCs, for reasons of thier own accuse people of being thieves, mindbenders, mages whatever without at all knowing if they really are, or caring.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard

Now, because in your OP you gave little to go on, and maybe rightly so, I used the word IF in mine, because I can only point to Possibilities.

You might have the luxury of having your guild easily determined by your appearance, but it would make absolutely no IC sense for my character to start wearing desert gear or chitin armor and toting swords or bows or sewing kits just so people wouldn't automatically suspect that he/she is a thief. Looking at my thief characters, the only thing I can see that would make anyone suspect it at first glance is the fact that they're not wearing anything that confirms that they're something else.

Again I'm going to have to say that you are wrong, your PC has EVERY IC reason to do such things.

In real life you would as well. If you are a pick pocket in real life there are several ways to go about it, BUT, one of the best ways is simply to BE, or at least LOOK like somebody who would NEVER be blamed or accused, somebody who the idea of them picking pockets would simply never enter thier minds. IRL if I was a pick pocket, I would Most likley dress as a priest. Or a construction worker, or a doctor. Because nobody would ever suspect me in a crowd.

I would also pick my mark and timing carefully, I would wait for the long-haired guy in a leather jacket to pass by my mark, I would probly bump my scapegoat into the mark then pick both pockets on my way by, the mark would never suspect that the kindly priest just robbed him.

And you admit your PC does not wear anything pointing at them maybe not being a thief, then well, Um, thats putting your PC as the Most likley suspect.

And let me say one more time, because I cannot stress this point enough, Unless you are on staff or have other means to see thinks, feels etc. You CANNOT know if they are role playing properly or not.

[BuNutzCola]

My character was pickpocketed for something very valueable to him a while back. I saw the player emote brushing past him, knew 100% I'd been had but my character just complained about the stupid cities being crowded. He found his item had been stolen later, but ICly there was no reason for him to have noticed before, people brush past you in a crowded pavilion all the time.

Not really sure why I posted, I guess just to say not everyone twinks out when they are robbed from.

[HoD]

I say, to help our swift handed brothers, we as roleplayers emote bumping into people in bars. Its crowed, and it happens all the time, do it, even if your not a thief, if your on your way to the bar, emote bumping past a few standing people, a chair - whatever.

[X-D]

Don't get me wrong, I play my PCs as pretty thief friendly, Don't keep everything locked down, not notice shit, but if it looks like a thief, even if its not, they will likley act like it anyway, thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Plus bumping people and such, fun fun.

[HoD]

Don't get me wrong, I play my PCs as pretty thief friendly, Don't keep everything locked down, not notice shit, but if it looks like a thief, even if its not, they will likley act like it anyway, thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Plus bumping people and such, fun fun.

If they look like a thief, and act like a thief, then watch their ass, but we should make it so if someone emotes bumping into you, doesn't make everyone check their stuff.

[Morfeus]

There are excellent played thieves and there are poor played ones. There are excellent played victims and there are poor played ones. If you walk in the tavern with a stolen blazing steel sword of doom and happily agree that you stole it, don't be surprised about consequences. If you are doing everything to not be recongized as a thief and you still are, it's sad and brings questions if emoting is the only problem.

I had a character who accused quite a few characters for being half-breeds (as soon as he saw some hints... which were often totally wrong). As soon as he decided the said person is a breed, he accused him for being a thief (no matter their job, clan, weapons, clothes). *shrug* It was fun.

Morfeus

PS. I don't really mind if a thief is not emoting at all, especially if stealing only that fifty coins from my inv.

[Wykydtronn]

Thief is a tough gig, Icly and even OOCly.
People can become extremely attached to their characters, so its only natural that they can be extremely protective.  Espeically in Armageddon, where even 30 sid can be the difference between death and getting water.  People don't like to take the risk and they sure as hell don't want to see their character just die because a pickpocket robbed them of everything they own.

The OOC fustrations stem from the fact that no one wants to lose and when it comes to raiding or even pick pocketing, some ones bound to lose.

I think, its come to a point where we all need to do is stop being so "hyper-aware" of our surroundings and learn to throw caution to the wind.

I personally having played many thieves over many games and table top sessions have learn to trust the player behind the thief because I've been there personally.  
I usually (if I can afford it) leave a small amount of sid (50-200) in my inventory.  First because I think its clunky having to remove the 2000 pile of coins from the back pack just buy a 11 sid drink and second because thieves need to eat too.  My character isn't even aware something is missing even if I the player knew I had 100 sid instead of 30.  Why? Because my characters drink a lot or stuff falls out of pockets... or what ever.  Shit happens, theft happens, think of an IC reason.

I'm tired... and rambling... and possibly making tyops.
Anyways my original point is: Put yourself in the other guys shoes.
As a victim you need to realize that the thief's player is just trying to fill out a role, a role that in many ways contributes to the game.
As a thief, if you respect your fellow players. The thing is, stealing a whole inventory of stuff is bound to piss some one off...  20-100 sid is easier to forget.  Self control and realism is the name of the game.

All in all, if every player just simply learns to bite bullets and take the good with the bad, we all would be a lot better off. (not to mention these "TWINKS!" threads would stop).  

Anyways In a game like Armageddon, You're going to die anyway.

[Pantoufle]

I've always maintained that there is more coded abuse from thief victims than from thieves.  The great irony is that thieves are the ones who are on the receiving end of the OOC persecution and consequently great pains are implemented to make life harder for thieves - what about making life harder for thief victims?

Before any of the changes to steal, the implementation of the watch command, etc., thief victims could already make themselves 100% steal proof.  Who needs a watch command?  Just close your rucksack!  Now it's even harder still to be an accomplished thief.

However, I would never make the mistake of OOCly revealing that I am the thief by emoting the old 'Bump in the Shoulder' routine.  Firstly, because I've tried it in the past and there is about .0001% of the playerbase who will actually go along with it.  Secondly, because RPing in Arm is about what you don't know.  The entire system is implemented to prevent players from not knowing certain bits of information so that they can get into their role even better: if you don't know something OOC then you definitely don't IC.  If you emote bumping into someone after a successful steal attempt, you're basically forcing them to RP not knowing something which, in actuality, they do.  This type of RP is prevalent in MUSHes, where players sometimes even OOCly orchestrate their own death, knowing full well in advance what fate awaits their character and playing him or her as though they don't.  But that's the difference between storytelling and RPing.  Here, we RP.  We basically ARE our characters.  And as such I don't want to know you've stolen from me OOCly and then have to act out not knowing.  I would much prefer to be kept in the dark about what sneaky things are happening to my character and if I find out, I want it to be because I caught you through IC means rather than OOC means.  As sad and as contradictory to RPing as it may sound, the bump in the shoulder while stealing tactic is little more than simply feeding OOC information to someone.

And like as not, this game is actually one tiny little village.  Even if there are virtual thousands or tens of thousands, you'll be hard pressed to find one player who can wrap their head around this idea, even if they say otherwise.  So for all the reasons stated above, the only recommendation I can make to the thieves of the game is don't emote when stealing (but feel free to semote or hemote until your heart's content).  It's like nodding while you are invisible, it forces the player to know someone is there and have to pretend they don't.

[Majikal]

I prefer little knowledge of the theft taking place. I'll notice it later when I realize I'm missing my serrated Ivory dagger, or my intricate bone flute from my hip. The only time I like the thief to RP out what is happening is if it is absolutely required because of the layout of the room or the item in question. The code doesn't show the other fella that you jacked their shit for that reason exactly.

[Rindan]

1)  If you are a thief, don't let your victims know who you are, even OOCly.  Seriously, it is a stupid idea.  Don't worry about the whining and complaining on the GDB because someone lost the 3 'sid that wasn't locked down in their backpack fortress and they don't know who it was.  Role play your theft, but use the tools given to you that let you role play the theft in secret.

2)  You might think you are living in a city of half a million, but you are not.  You are living in a city of about 20.  As a result, see above.

3)  Don't look like a thief.  Carry around a sewing kit and sell clothes or whatever.  That doesn't mean that you don't have to have your dark hooded cloak in your backpack, just don't wear it into favorite tavern.

4)  Use criminal areas.  You don't actually need to do any of the above if you simply use the criminal areas of respective cities.  Don't hang out in the Barrel if you are going to steal from there.  Yeah, it sucks in terms of interaction, but that is life.  Hang out where you steal, and you are going to find yourself facing a Templar sooner or later.  You can live a very long time as a blatant thief/spice dealer/criminal if you don't live in the city proper.

5)  See point 1 again.  Don't let people know you are a thief OOCly.  Seriously, just ignore the crying on the GDB.  Thieves  have gotten the shaft and continue to get the shaft on a regular basis.  Screw what the rest of the players think.  You don't owe them any emotes or a wink wink nudge nudge that you just stole from them.  If you start dropping hints that you stole from them, don't act all surprised if they use those hints to catch you.  DON'T GIVE OUT OOC INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE A THIEF.

[Maybe42or54]

Just be an average schmoe and steal?

Yea, I'm a thief. And I stole your knickers. You don't want me to stare at you everyday? Pay me off.

[Kennath]

I'm so going to have everyone one of my characters bump into everyone in the bar now.

The tall muscular man shouts "Thief!"

The tall muscular man asks you "Er, what did you steal?"

-Ken

[Tlaloc]

Maybe the solution to this would be to have randomized bump-code. Anytime your PC is detected as walking (or even standing) in any direction, there's a chance you'll bump into someone.

It's kind of a silly idea, but the only way I can think of other than to convince non-thieves to RP occasionally bumping into people - which probably should happen more often anyway.

[Dalmeth]

I personally think the best way to prevent people from getting too annoyed with thieves is to take things that they constantly acquire, like coins, food, and water.  Taking away things they constantly use, like their 20 sid skinning knife, bright, shiny torch, and that dingy facewrap, just makes theft a real hassle.

I personally have never understood why thieves can't just wait until people take out their coins at bars.  Is it truly that hard?

[jhunter]

The biggest problem I had when playing a thieving pc is this situation:

You are in an area that is ICly crowded as hell, vnpcs, a couple of coded npcs, another pc and you (the thief). Your pc is the type of "smart thief" that attempts to fit in instead of dressing or acting shady in any way at all.

You attempt to lift something from the other pc and fail. Not a critical failure mind you, but one that lets them know -someone- had a hand on their stuff, just not that it was specifically -you-.

The intended victim then, immediately turns on you (because OOCly you're the only pc in the room even though it is full of other people ICly) bitches you out for trying to steal from them/threatens you, or spreads the word to all their friends/soldiers/nobles/templars/etc. which in turn, ends up with your pc in trouble with the authorities, dead, or every other pc immediately locks up all their stuff as soon as they are aware of your presence.
This is my biggest peeve about potential victim's roleplay in those situations. The code will tell you whether or not you saw -who- had a hand on your stuff. (And even then, ICly that doesn't necessarily mean that every damned pc is going to assume it was an attempt at theft.)

Unless the code says specifically that you -know- who had a hand on your stuff, your pc has -no fucking reason- to turn on the only other visible pc around and accuse them. I understand of course that there are the rare exceptions but they should be just that, -rare-.

This sort of crap is just plain abuse of OOC information in my opinion and fits along with what someone else stated about not giving away -any- OOC information that you might be a thief because people tend to abuse it.

[jhunter]

I personally think the best way to prevent people from getting too annoyed with thieves is to take things that they constantly acquire, like coins, food, and water.  Taking away things they constantly use, like their 20 sid skinning knife, bright, shiny torch, and that dingy facewrap, just makes theft a real hassle.

I personally have never understood why thieves can't just wait until people take out their coins at bars.  Is it truly that hard?

Dalmeth, theft isn't convenient in real life and it -is- a hassle. If it wasn't, noone would care about it and it probably wouldn't be against the law.
What makes more sense? Swiping a couple of coins, a biscuit, etc...or swiping that skinning knife that they can sell to get more coins, more biscuits, etc?

That's like saying a thief should be checking out someone's possessions and saying to themselves:
"Hrrmm...I see that fifty 'sid blade on his belt...but I think I'll wait and see if I can snatch a couple coins instead. I wouldn't want to inconvenience him."  :shock:

[Agent_137]

I'm actually with rindan on this one.

The imms made hemote for a reason, and that reason was for sneaky people.

Use it.


p.s.

If you emote brushing past me, then I see it, and I ICly and OOCly know I was brushed past. But how many times was I brushed without noticing it? It's a crowded tavern, afterall. A successful thief in real life bumps against someone, and they forget, they don't notice. Do the same. use hemote.

[jhunter]

Don't let people know you are a thief OOCly. Seriously, just ignore the crying on the GDB. Thieves have gotten the shaft and continue to get the shaft on a regular basis. Screw what the rest of the players think. You don't owe them any emotes or a wink wink nudge nudge that you just stole from them. If you start dropping hints that you stole from them, don't act all surprised if they use those hints to catch you. DON'T GIVE OUT OOC INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE A THIEF.

Very true. In fact, some of us (as the victim) do -not- want to know OOCly. If my pc doesn't know it, I would prefer not to know either. I personally find giving the OOC hints that they were the one who stole from you to be kind of like rubbing your nose in it.

[Hymwen]

Hemote and semote are only used for certain things, definitely not something like brushing past, bumping into or leaning over someone in a tavern or whatever thieves like to use to get into pockets. If you want to do that, emote is the only way to go (until we get targeted hemote, hint hint) unless you want to just steal with no emotes whatsoever, which is annoying for the target and, in my opinion, boring for the thief. But again and again it has been proven to me that any kind of interaction during theft is an incredibly bad idea because people will not only somehow find out you were a thief even though you never failed, but often go to completely unreasonable lengths when they deal with it. Hemote and semote have specific purposes and should not be used just because you don't want your target to see.

[Hymwen]

In real life you would as well. If you are a pick pocket in real life there are several ways to go about it, BUT, one of the best ways is simply to BE, or at least LOOK like somebody who would NEVER be blamed or accused, somebody who the idea of them picking pockets would simply never enter thier minds. IRL if I was a pick pocket, I would Most likley dress as a priest. Or a construction worker, or a doctor. Because nobody would ever suspect me in a crowd.

I shouldn't have to wear anything particular to avoid automatically being accused of being a thief. If you see somebody and you can't immediately tell that they're a warrior, a Kadian crafter, a gemmer, a desert traveller and so on, does that mean they must be a thief? Your logic is void. Yes, disguise is one thing that can work, but it shouldn't be a requirment. Stop thinking in guilds.

[Hymwen]

Double

[mansa]

Hymwen, I highly suggest to use hemote when doing thieving things.  It solves a lot of problems.

If their skill is good enough to see you bump into them, then they should know you bumped into them.  If they didn't see you bump into them, then they shouldn't know you did.. .  Because you're so sneaky they thought it was an everyday bump.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Let me reiterate what others are saying.  Pickpockets have always gotten the short end of the code stick.  Their ability to steal something remotely meaningful is nonexistent.  Anyone who wants to make themselves 100% thief-proof can, easily.

When you hear complaints on the GDB, you're hearing the voices of irredeemable whiners who can't emotionally accept something bad happening to their characters and are convinced that anyone who stole from them must be a twink.  Their small brains futilely try to justify their convictions and they then decide that their attackers lack of emotes makes him or her a bad role-player.  When a thief does emote, these same people will decide that it wasn't realistic for that theft to have taken place in that matter for whatever reason (How could he steal my sword?  It was underneath my cloak!).  They will then proceed to use every OOC method available to track down that thief and make their character unplayable.

Needless to say you aren't doing yourself any favors by listening to that self-serving garbage.  Use only thinks and hemotes when you're attempting a steal.

Furthermore, don't steal from the playerbase until your skills are high enough.  Some people will call this metagaming or using OOC knowledge but I quite frankly don't give a shit.  With maybe 20 PCs in any given city and hundreds of thousands of NPCs, any theft attempt against a PC is a statistical anomaly.  Of course, PCs are usually the richest targets, so when your character is confident enough in her abilities (no longer failing at steal and peak), it only makes sense for her to start going after bigger prizes.

I hope this helps.

[Folker]

Actually, I dislike the idea of stealing coins from a person who draws them from their pack in order to buy something. It's just the idea is kind of odd. How can my character literally steal something without being noticed, when those coins were JUST taken out of a pack, and therefore are supposedly still held in their hands. Short of grabbing it, wrangling itout of their hands, and taking off, I cant imagine doing it.

But overral, yeah, I agree pick-pockets is an extremely complicated class. First of all, their main 'skill' is also used by every single other guild from assassins/burglers, to a good third of subguilds, to a varying degree of proeffeciency. And second of all the lack of other skills make them actually pretty reliant on the actual characteristics of the thief then his class skills. Which is actually quiet a rush sometimes, but 'is' a challenge compared to other classes.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Notes:
  Avoid using this command for emotes that would physically interact with
objects or characters.  They will not get a message if they don't notice it.

Yeah, you 'could' use hemote to brush past people.. But the help seems to suggest you shouldn't, because it should not be something that interacts. And, bumping is an interactive gesture.

RL, you may not notice getting brushed past or walked near, true. However, for the less delicate grab where someone physically jostles you, bumps, or nudges, you're likely to realize your personal bubble has just been violated. You may not get a good look at "the cranky old granny" in the grocery store who just rammed you with her cart and kept going (bitch), but you're very aware you were "interacted with".

If you notice a person standing around.. maybe they're really just standing around. Consider how many NPC/VNPC people are also standing around. Go to your local dance club (or honkytonk/biker bar, whatever's the most popular) on a Saturday about 11pm. And look for 'The lean, black-haired dude' or 'the skankily dressed ho'. You get the idea. There's so many people you couldn't possibly get a look at them all (unless you live in hickville, population 30). So you saw somebody whose profession wasn't clearly defined standing around there? And.. somebody stole something from somebody, at sometime, which you heard from somebody else? Get real. And now, you're telling everybody who'll listen, including people you aren't well acquainted with, and they're telling people, and somebody just told me.. and you expect me to do the same? Yeah. No.

Not to mention, we are no a huggy hand holding city (weird tribes do not count *grin*), what do I care if Amos Miner got his skinning knife stolen, unless Amos Miner is a personal, close friend. How do I know he didn't lose it? And again, why should I care? Unless the thief is stealing from a person of "high influence", what's the big deal, it's not personal. The hero architype isn't supposed to be a dominant one on Arm, afaik, and if you're running around trying to save all the good citizens from papercuts.. You're weird.  

[Maso]

Personally, I think the best way to interact with people, if it is what you want, as a thief is to do it while hidden and disguised. That way you can bump someone, or brush against them and instantly fade back into the 'crowd'.

I have seen this done, and personally it seems the most entertaining way for me, this is...if you want to emote while thieving and don't want to instantly get named a thief.

[Folker]

considering thieves dont even begin with hide skill, that's not all that easy a feat to do, Maso.

[Maso]

Well they can hold out till they get better. Or they can emote their little hearts out and get caught. If my char was sat in whatever tavern and someone emoted bumping into me, I would check my inv. and if there was something missing I would question them.

I don't know where all of you guys are from, but I grew up in London, and having grown up in a city that is thriving with pickpockets and totally over-populated...I always check my stuff if someone comes near me, no matter how busy it is. If I'm forced into close quarters with people...I keep my hands *on* my valuables. So I take this experience and think...if I had grown up in Allanak, another city thriving with pickpockets, thiefs and general scum, I would pretty much be the same. I would be suspicious all the time.

[Hymwen]

One of the problems is that there's usually only one or two PC pickpockets around at any given time, so most people will automatically suspect the one PC out of thousands of vNPCs, even if said PC was never actually caught. And once they know there's one PC thief around and fairly certain it's the only active one, any theft gets blamed on that one person. Doesn't matter that they're never seen stealing.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

Why emote the bump, Hymwen?

In the past, I've found the best thing to do is to emote things that get you close to people, but are casual. If someone is sitting at the bar, emote walking along the bar towards a seat (yoink!). If someone is standing at the door, emote pausing by the door and giving the room a last look over your shoulder (yoink!). Then, use hemote or a think to indicate your hand slipping out, or whatever else you're actually doing.

However, my favorite steal has to be:

steal (whatever) victim
Got it!
emote suddenly bursts out the the crowds, snatching %sucker (whatever), then whirling and hurrying down the road!

The chase is on! :shock:

The problem is keeping a thieving character unknown as a thieving character, but sometimes its fun to play a character people know is likely to lift their coins.

[spawnloser]

'semote' is another command to look into.

[Hymwen]

It's not necessarily a bump, that was just an example emote. I've tried many different things, almost always with the same result. I've decided to stop attempting any kind of interaction while playing a thief "on the job". Sorry to those who play responsibly, I'd love to give you some interesting RP in trade for your goodies, but it's proven hopeless again and again.

[Folker]

Truth be said, the time of lone pickpockets sort of passed since the watch command got introduced. Now pickpockets are ment to work in teams and 'that' ends up pretty good. Where one's a known thief and the other isnt. This way, one thief keeps getting caught and checked, and the other one actually does the stealing. One's a regular, the other's specifically suspicious. This allows the emoting to be present, and circumvents all the poor responses since they all end up directed at the bait.

[Jherlen]

I would think hemote and semote were put in in part to allow thieves more freedom to emote during thefts. I don't see anything wrote with 'hemote brushes past ~man', myself, because sometimes people can brush by you and you won't really even notice.

But yeah, to echo what many other people have said, coming out to the playerbase as a thief is just as bad as coming out as an ungemmed mage or a mindbender... people will just never treat you the same. The best played thieves are ones absolutely nobody will suspect.

[Rindan]

It's not necessarily a bump, that was just an example emote. I've tried many different things, almost always with the same result. I've decided to stop attempting any kind of interaction while playing a thief "on the job". Sorry to those who play responsibly, I'd love to give you some interesting RP in trade for your goodies, but it's proven hopeless again and again.

Seriously, don't bother with this or feel bad.  RP to your hearts content.  Put on public displays of RP showing the depth of your character when NOT robbing people.  Hell, merrily RP away while robbing people so long as it doesn't hint OOCly that you are a thief.

"emote bumps into ~dude" does not 'give' anyone anything.  Sure, they OOCly know who you stoled from them.  Great.  That is like a Templar OOCing you right before he kills you that "OOC BTW, it was Amos that sold you out.  Doesn't that suck?"  It just isn't needed, and a lot of time flat out isn't even welcome.  For me personally, I don't even want to know that you just stole from me.  I don't want you to emote at me unless you are trying to broadcast to my character that your movements are so blatant and suspicious that I should take notice.  

If you don't want someone to respond to something, simply don't tell them.  You don't OOC to people that you are a hidden Tuluki magiker, even though technically they should ignore such OOCing, because you don't want to create a conflict of interest.  Think of thieving as the same sort of thing.  Don't create conflicts of interest where a player knows that you are the thief but you expect him to ignore this tidbit.  It doesn't enhance the RP of the world.  If anything, it wrecks immersion for the player who would prefer to be as ignorant as his character.  The only thing that can happen is people either being pissed off that you are broadcasting OOC information they don't want to know, or you pissed off because they decided their character noticed your bump and got suspicious.

There is a hell of a lot  more to thief RP then the occasional steal.  Quietly think and hemote your way through stealing and ignore the whining on the GDB.  If you steal a warriors sword and he comes on bitching the next day because there is NOWAY anyone could have stole his two cord long sword, just ignore it.  That whiny bastard thinks it is impossible to steal anything bigger then a coin but doesn't bitch when he takes on a mutli-ton insect and wins or locks down every object on his body with a backpack of d00m.  Screw the whining on the GDB and just play the game for a way that is fun for you.  

Pick pockets have been given the shaft.  You don't owe anyone anything.  The only person  you need to prove you are playing realistically to are the imms, who can see your hemotes and thinks just fine.

[jhunter]

Don't create conflicts of interest where a player knows that you are the thief but you expect him to ignore this tidbit. It doesn't enhance the RP of the world. If anything, it wrecks immersion for the player who would prefer to be as ignorant as his character. The only thing that can happen is people either being pissed off that you are broadcasting OOC information they don't want to know, or you pissed off because they decided their character noticed your bump and got suspicious.

I just wanted to quote this again since it states exactly how I feel on the matter. It is so very true.

[Hymwen]

Again, the proverbial bump is just an example. What I meant was that I like to emote what my character actually does - if the way I stole your dagger was to reach across the bar for a mug while pinching the item with the other hand, I would emote the reaching across the bar part. Things like that. My personal (possibly incorrect) opinion is that you should emote as much as possible as long as it doesn't come at the expense of other important things, and it doesn't feel right to me if the way my character steals something should have an emote connected to it yet I can't do it because that means people will OOCly know I stole something, and act ICly on it. Of course I can't dictate what another player's character will and will not notice, but sometimes it's really obvious; another somewhat related example is when you're hiding and someone with an active scan looks at you, and someone else instantly does "stand;scan;sit bar". What I wanted to explain are OOC-motivated IC actions that your character realistically probably shouldn't be doing, and thus forcing others to, IMO, not roleplay optimally. I guess I'm asking for the impossible, and I've learned not to trust anyone, not because everyone's bad but because a lot of them are and it's not worth the risk to try and be fair to the minority of reasonable players.

I'm not trying to tell you OOCly that my character is a thief, I'm simply emoting what my character does, but since that often includes things that noone normally bothers emoting, I guess it turns out that way.

[Tisiphone]

Hymwen.

I understand and sympathize with your dilemma.

This is why I have only ever played a thief-class character once.

That is all.

[Rindan]

Again, the proverbial bump is just an example. What I meant was that I like to emote what my character actually does - if the way I stole your dagger was to reach across the bar for a mug while pinching the item with the other hand, I would emote the reaching across the bar part. Things like that.

I understand what you are angling at, and I think that it is a tricky balance to maintain.  My pick pockets have really never had any issues with people catching on.  Maybe it was just luck, but I have found the following things work for me to still emote, but not to throw an OOC I AM A THIEF over my head.

1)  Always be an active emoter.  If the only time you emote small gestures or describe how you move across the tavern is when you are stealing, you might as well just drop a sign over your head.  If you are a person who is constantly describing what you are doing, especially when you are NOT stealing, you are far more likely to have your countless small gestures go unnoticed.

2)  Never mention your target in the emote.  If the way you are going to steal from a guy sitting at a table in the middle of the tavern is to steal from him as you walk by and flitch something from his pocket, don't mention that you walk past him.  Emote that you walk across the tavern, pushing your way past patrons.  Don't single out people unless you want them to notice your actions and get suspicious.

3)  Either steal very rarely from the tavern you spend your time in, or don't spend time in that tavern.  If stuff starts to vanish whenever you are in the tavern, people are going to put two and two together pretty quickly.  Either be a bar fly who only steals when the target is very juicy once on a blue moon, or spend your time somewhere else... preferable in an entirely different zone (like the 'rinth).

4)  Deny, deny, deny, deny.  Unless they catch you red handed, deny.  Even if they catch you red handed, deny.  It won't convince everyone, but if you do it right, it will convince a lot of people.

5)  Make liberal use of the 'rinth or pay off Templars.  If you are not doing one of these two, you are asking for trouble.  You can't spend all of your time in Allanak proper (and I assume Tuluk) without paying off someone and not get fucked by a Templar or soldier.  Either spend most of your time in the 'rinth, or pay off soldiers and Templars BEFORE you get caught committing a crime.  If a Borsail aid comes to a Templar you have not paid off and complains that you are a thief, you are dead.  If a Borsail aid comes to a Templar that has been paid off that you are a thief, he is going to tell the aid to stop wasting his time with such petty crap.  

You WILL get caught or at least suspected at some point.  If you don't have a job but are a regular fixture someplace, you will eventually attract attention.  Be prepared.  Either make use of the 'rinth, or pay off the law.

In general though, error in favor of yourself.  You only need to get caught once to get fucked.  Screw worrying if your mark feels satisfied about how he was stolen from.  Do what you can such that you are satisfied and don't worry beyond that.

[Fathi]

Notes:
  Avoid using this command for emotes that would physically interact with
objects or characters.  They will not get a message if they don't notice it.

Yeah, you 'could' use hemote to brush past people.. But the help seems to suggest you shouldn't, because it should not be something that interacts. And, bumping is an interactive gesture.

RL, you may not notice getting brushed past or walked near, true. However, for the less delicate grab where someone physically jostles you, bumps, or nudges, you're likely to realize your personal bubble has just been violated. You may not get a good look at "the cranky old granny" in the grocery store who just rammed you with her cart and kept going (bitch), but you're very aware you were "interacted with".

If you notice a person standing around.. maybe they're really just standing around. Consider how many NPC/VNPC people are also standing around. Go to your local dance club (or honkytonk/biker bar, whatever's the most popular) on a Saturday about 11pm. And look for 'The lean, black-haired dude' or 'the skankily dressed ho'. You get the idea. There's so many people you couldn't possibly get a look at them all (unless you live in hickville, population 30). So you saw somebody whose profession wasn't clearly defined standing around there? And.. somebody stole something from somebody, at sometime, which you heard from somebody else? Get real. And now, you're telling everybody who'll listen, including people you aren't well acquainted with, and they're telling people, and somebody just told me.. and you expect me to do the same? Yeah. No.

Not to mention, we are no a huggy hand holding city (weird tribes do not count *grin*), what do I care if Amos Miner got his skinning knife stolen, unless Amos Miner is a personal, close friend. How do I know he didn't lose it? And again, why should I care? Unless the thief is stealing from a person of "high influence", what's the big deal, it's not personal. The hero architype isn't supposed to be a dominant one on Arm, afaik, and if you're running around trying to save all the good citizens from papercuts.. You're weird.  

Well, regarding the hero archetype, I totally agree with you. In fact, I agree with most of the post. What I'd like to emphasise, though, is this:

If Miner A is stolen from and knows who it was and tells Miner B, and Mercenary or Aide or what-have-you overhears and decides to start spreading the news to all the good tavern citizens, I can almost guarantee that it's not for selfless reasons.

For example, if your character hears that 1 or 2 of the PCs in the crowded bar have been known to be the thieving types and they're negotiating a deal with some merchant, informing the merchant to watch their shit because soandso is a nasty evil thief could be advantageous for them.

Or? The person doing the spreading of information could just love the idea of watching the thief be antagonised because they're a sadistic bastard. Miner A isn't telling Miner B about getting robbed because he cares about Miner B's well-being, he just wants to see the jerk who stole from him squirm. And sure, in some cases if players aren't able to separate IC and OOC, their character's actions could be fueled by OOC anger, but if Miner knows what was stolen from him and knows who stole it then he'd be angry IC, too.

Looking back on my time playing, one of the best scenes I remember witnessing was an utterly masterful theft. The thief made liberal use of hemote interspersed with her regular emotes, so that when she emoted walking through the tavern, she hemoted paying a bit of attention to a particular table. I caught the hemotes, the mark didn't, and he got his crap taken. He then proceeded to accuse an NPC of it. Hilariously.

If a character accuses your character of being a thief, you don't necessarily know the accusor's motivations. He could just be trying to spread nasty rumours about you in public because you pissed him off, he could be being PAID to spread rumours about you in public, you could actually be a thief and he could actually know, or he could just be paranoid. Playing a character thinking they've been stolen from when nothing has actually been stolen isn't unheard of.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

**Lots of stuff**... You're weird.  

***Lots MORE stuff***

True enough, it could be any one of those, a combo, or variation on possibilities. Though my post wasn't just supposed to be about the person who is spreading the rumor for whatever reason. It's the sudden widespread panic of everyone involved because.. *gasp*... there might be a petty thief in their midst? Unless they have A) A personal vendetta, B) A personal bond with Amos Miner, C) Many valuables that can be easily stolen... they probably shouldn't care that Barny Saltsifter says that Cassie Stickyfingers lifted Amos's favorite carru leather sunslit case. And now the rumor's moving to David Swordsell and Edd Merchant.. and people expect them to actually care.

Really. How valuable is that junk? "30 sids is the difference between life and death" but.. when's the last time some level-headed person you knew RL (or you did it yourself) has forgotten something important in public? A wallet, a purse, an ID... $90 sunglasses? Just because your items have value, doesn't mean you are going to cling to them in a life or death fashion. Then instantly assume when it's gone missing, *dramatic tone* That they have been the victim of a cruel and vicious crime! *end drama*. Anyway, yeah. S'my take on it... I had 4 hours of sleep, I hope it doesn't show.

[path]

I agree with Hymwen.

[jmordetsky]

Hemote.

Semote.

[Hymwen]

Hemote.

Semote.

...should only be used for their purposes, not just because you don't want the target to see what you're doing. As an example, ever see a pickpocket stealing a watch off some guy's wrist while shaking his hand on a TV show? You shouldn't be using hemote for that. The apparently unsolvable dilemma here is that people don't want to know OOCly that they've been stolen from, which means thieves can't emote how they steal stuff. In return, others complain that thieves don't emote when stealing, and other others respond with poor victim roleplay. I've found a new favorite guild though, where I don't feel restricted because of what other people do or don't want to know OOCly, or where my character's life doesn't depend on how responsibly people react to the game environment. Plus I can travel in sandstorms, it's neat.

[Morfeus]

Hemote.

Semote.

...should only be used for their purposes, not just because you don't want the target to see what you're doing. As an example, ever see a pickpocket stealing a watch off some guy's wrist while shaking his hand on a TV show?

I might be mistaken, of course, but I always thought this would be a good case to use hemote. How many times did you notice the pickpocket stealing a watch? Perhaps we don't have the "right kind" of TV shows here, but I never noticed it. If it is something what would most of people unnotice, I would not emote it at all and just do it code-wise or I would use hemote. But as I said, I might be mistaken.

[Hymwen]

I'm not saying you should do "emote shakes your hand and steals your watch", but shaking somebody's hand is definitely not something you should use hemote for. That particular example isn't the best to describe the problem since a hand-shake isn't particularly suspicious, but some players have a tendency to notice any emote that doesn't make immediate sense from an OOC perspective because it's rare that anyone makes an interactive emote that isn't a response to something.

Emoting isn't all that my original post is about though, but my personal opinion is that it's sad that thieves don't have any freedom to emote their action because people don't want to know OOCly that they were stolen from. If the thief emotes something that anyone would realistically find suspicious then there's nothing wrong with acting on it, but my experience is that any emote that the player (not the PC) could possibly interpret as a masked theft will nine times out of ten invoke the proverbial "Thief, thief!" roleplay. They might not necessarily be shouting it instantly, but you'll know that it happened when the next day most of the PCs in a city know you as a thief because you let yourself get "caught" by forgetting to have your hood up while emoting squeezing past a PC in the crowd. That happened to my latest pickpocket and it's so incredibly discouraging. The person apparently looked through all their belongings, noticed one item missing, and so a fairly large amount of people suddenly took an extreme interest in "the only thief in town".

Similar to the response in the sdesc-sniffing thread where people suggest that you just deny: sure, you can do that. I normally do too. But once a player knows OOCly that you did something and has decided to make life hell for your character, no amount of denial will convince them ICly. That's of course a generalization, but my experiences say that a player who makes OOC-motivated accusations in the first place will continue to play unfairly. If you covered a failed theft on them but was the only other PC in the room, you can bet your ass that there's a big chance they'll forever know you as a thief and act ICly on it. It has happened so many times.

It goes further than just thief roleplay, though. Many players seem to have an almost compulsive instinct to find out things OOCly that their character doesn't know. Anyone who has sat at a bar with their hood up and had five contact-withdraws in as many minutes knows what I'm talking about. Anyone playing a rogue magicker who gets accused because they failed to show talent in any of the main guild areas knows. Anyone who was walking down the street in a hood and had some other PC following them for six rooms just so they could get a look at you knows. Anyone attempting to mug someone while fully disguised only to later find a tavern post with a replica of their description knows. It's just these things that I wanted to address, and to ask the playerbase who might not be thinking about their actions when they do it to please include more realism in their roleplay. I only posted about thieves because that's where I've seen it the most, but maybe my post should simply have read:

Please use any knowledge you gain realistically compared to what your character would know, and please don't go out of your way to gain knowledge by OOC means and then use it to cause IC consequences for someone.

[Mudder]

Yeah, this can be a problem. I can name two situations in when it happened to me in that past years and I have never played another again. One, I was outside of a tavern and tried stealing from an npc, I failed but I didn't have a critical fail where it gave my sdesc away, almost instantly, a pc in the tavern came running out and accusing me because I was the only pc around.

Another, is when I had a successful steal from a pc. I watched him from afar and timed my attempt at stealing the item.  With ease I got it, and to my suprise the next ic day the man tracked me down and demanded that I give his item back. How would he know it was me in a crowded bar with 7 other pc's when I had a successful steal?

And on the other side of the playing field. Theives can be just in the wrong as the accusers.

[LoD]

Emoting isn't all that my original post is about though, but my personal opinion is that it's sad that thieves don't have any freedom to emote their action because people don't want to know OOCly that they were stolen from.

My question would be, "What is it you want to happen?"

Are you suggesting something?  Was this just a frustrated complaint about how a portion of the playerbase has trouble RPing being stolen from when the thief is taking steps to be suspicious or obvious to the player?  Are you hoping that the people guilty of such behavior will read this discussion and ponder whether they should or shouldn't continue such practices?

It appears that most are in agreement that to be a successful thief across the board, one must fool both the character and the player.  This is not to say that people are in agreement that this is how things should be, but how they are.  Several other discussions on the GDB have demonstrated that there will always be a variety of ways the players interpret the gameworld around them.

For some players, the code is the judge, jury, and executioner on every single question.  If the code allows it, then it is fine.  If the code allows me to sneak away in the middle of a one-on-one conversation on a deserted street, then it's OK.  If the code allows me to flee/backstab 10 times, then it must be OK.  If a thief emotes bumping into me, then I have every right to interpret that rare and suspect behavior as a possible theft attempt and am completely justified in fingering the person who bumped me.

For other playres, the code is a necessary evil for helping make decisions where interests are conflicted.  These players have faith in their fellows that the scene and realistic character development will be more important than the 200 coins in their backpack, or the new sword on their belt.  They are willing to let their characters make mistakes even when the player notices something is awry.  These players are the few that actually stop when a raider shouts, "Halt" or emote ignorance when a thief bumps into them on their way out the door, or let a character die of poison even though the player knows the cure.

The trouble is we can argue one over the other until we're blue in the face, but it won't ever change the fact that players of any game are going to differ in maturity, expectations, reasons for playing, definition of fun, levels of trust in their fellow players, and more.  There will always be the guy backstabbing kids in the 'rinth because he wants to improve the skill regardless of the fact that backstabbing kids is a pretty sick and twisted action that would seem acceptable only to the truly disturbed.

So, knowing all this, I'd ask again, "What is it you want to happen?"

The people who will listen probably aren't the problem.  And the people who are the problem probably won't listen.  So, if you don't want advice on how to be a successful thief in a world of varied IC and OOC perspectives, then I don't know what more there is to say.

-LoD

[Tarx]

I liked that response.  

I've always enjoyed RPing with shady types, and the only times I definitely "caught" a thief was when, well...they sucked at it.  Usually, if never "see" them but only their emotes, I am content with that.

And thieves are doing great anyway.  Organized thievery at least.  Lots of characters sell stuff.  Try buying something that you know nothing about...I'll wager your character will end up paying a totally stupendous amount more than one that knows a lot about that particular item and how to create/acquire it.  And that kind of thievery, I'm perfectly content with.

Not that that there's anything wrong with the blatant kind.

[Hymwen]

What do I want? I simply want to remind people that they don't necessarily need to use any and all means possible to deal with thieves. I'm not saying they should cut thieves slack, but neither should they go beyond logic and realism when accusing/chasing thieves.

Do I expect the people in question to read this thread? Probably not most of them, but I don't think ignoring the problem is a better alternative. For the same reason that cigarette packages tell you that smoking is unhealthy even though smokers obviously ignore that, I don't think it's a bad idea to have an active thread where people can discuss their opinions on the matter, whether or not the people I think should read it will do so. And my opinion is that too many people are being really poor with their response roleplay.

That's a perception. An opinion. It might even be elitist and/or exaggarated. It's still how I've felt every time I've played a thief, and it's the thing that has caused me not to want to play one again. To put it in blunt honesty, I think a lot of people are twinking out in any situation where their character stands to risk anything whatsoever, be it their lives (where I can be more forgiving) or their 30 'sid dagger. Maybe what I want is for the staff to acknowledge the problem, because I have never seen or heard of anyone ever being reprimended for the above described behaviour, whereas I have seen players of thieves punished and the theft code mutilated to the point where I doubt there are ever more than 2-3 PC pickpockets in the game at any given time. A lot of people are playing in a way that makes it look like they, not their characters, feel insulted when they're stolen from.

So I am addressing and responding to the problem in hopes that people who don't realize that their "victim roleplay" might be rubbish will think about it and try to be more realistic about it. The emoting thing was only a portion of the issue, but it seems that most of the response is concerning that. I realize opinions vary and not everyone agrees as to what is or isn't responsible and realistic roleplay, but some of the situations I've seen and been in really were ugly enough that I felt it needed to be addressed. The whole issue is difficult because noone likes to be told how to play, and everyone has their own opinion in what is the right or wrong way to do something. I just don't agree in the apparently common opinion that it's the thief's responsibility to make absolutely sure that the victim character and player never have a clue that anything is going on, and that failure to do so means the victim is within rights to go to outrageous lengths to deal with it.

And then I hope that the next version of the game has a code that doesn't completely work against thieves (or other "bad guys" for that matter) in almost every way possible.

[Spud]

This is one of the games problems that can't be fixed since it depends on the players, and most don't care aslong as they don't get 'caught'.

[Folker]

Ermh. Well actually many people 'do' care, whether caught or not. I know I have done some things that I would consider ... dictated by a desire for survivability of my character then any roleplaying reason, untill I have read a good discussion about it.

I 'have' read though, that if people draw their weapons whenever they think a thief is near, not to be ready to cut them up, but because it's impossible to steal weapons if they're wielded, can indeed inspire the Imms to some immortal fury so to speak =) So I am 'positive' I read an Imm mentioning it that if this really happens, it should be reported.

[path]

jmordetsky also makes a very good point.

[Rhyden]

Everyone has a different opinion on everything in Armageddon.

Thieving is one of those topics that everyone has a different opinion on. It's one of the many things in Armageddon that makes this game very difficult to understand how to play for everyone.

When we have so many vague rules and settings in Arm, we have to have a certain level of OOC trust in our fellow players a lot of the time for things like thieving, combat, raiding, magick, skill-enhancement and wealth-increase. One of the many things the immortals do is help reinforce this trust level in Armageddon. But they can't police everyone, everywhere all the time. So, there has to be a certain level of trust.

But there are a lot of players who haven't played Armageddon long enough to understand this trust level needed to play fair or the players themselves just aren't trustworthy some or all of the time.

My point is that I can think of two ways around this and the several other similar situations:

1. Everyone plays fairly and is trustworthy in an OOC sense
2. The code, rules and atmosphere are made less vague

So until one or the other happens, you're going to be stuck with players you think are playing unfairly OOC. That's a given.

Play fairly OOC yourself, contact the immortals if it's appropriate and try to enjoy the game.

[Rindan]

It isn't an issue of fair or unfair.  It is an issue of interpretation.  We have the code to the interpreting for a lot of things for a very good reason.  We want the player to be left free interpret the world in his own way, rather then having to bicker back and forth with other players about what REALLY happened.

The issue with giving clues that you are a thief while you are  thieving is that you are handing off nice objective interpretation that the code can do for to the subjective realm of the players.  It is like emoting that you try and hit someone.  The fact that you decided not to use the code means that they get to decide what happens.  If you don't like that, stick to the code.  When you are stealing, if you want to emote bumping people or what-not, you are handing over interpretation to other players.  Just like how a mercenary might decide that he is going to dodge your emoted punch because he is a bad ass, a noble aid might decide that he is going to put two and two together and realize that you bumped into him right as his shit when missing.

Seriously, just don't hand over that control.  Ignore the GDB, DON'T put on a show, and simply RP in ways that don't attract attention.  It is easily do-able.  I have played a merry pick pocket who has stolen piles of l00t without getting fingered for the crimes.  I RPed to my hearts content, but I just made sure that I wasn't being obvious about it.  I am more then happy to think (and now hemote) the subtle movements of my character rather then broadcast them.  It isn't hard to defeat people OOCly putting two and two together unless you are running around dressed like a vagabond.