Roleplaying against thieves

[Hymwen]

I'm not saying you should do "emote shakes your hand and steals your watch", but shaking somebody's hand is definitely not something you should use hemote for. That particular example isn't the best to describe the problem since a hand-shake isn't particularly suspicious, but some players have a tendency to notice any emote that doesn't make immediate sense from an OOC perspective because it's rare that anyone makes an interactive emote that isn't a response to something.

Emoting isn't all that my original post is about though, but my personal opinion is that it's sad that thieves don't have any freedom to emote their action because people don't want to know OOCly that they were stolen from. If the thief emotes something that anyone would realistically find suspicious then there's nothing wrong with acting on it, but my experience is that any emote that the player (not the PC) could possibly interpret as a masked theft will nine times out of ten invoke the proverbial "Thief, thief!" roleplay. They might not necessarily be shouting it instantly, but you'll know that it happened when the next day most of the PCs in a city know you as a thief because you let yourself get "caught" by forgetting to have your hood up while emoting squeezing past a PC in the crowd. That happened to my latest pickpocket and it's so incredibly discouraging. The person apparently looked through all their belongings, noticed one item missing, and so a fairly large amount of people suddenly took an extreme interest in "the only thief in town".

Similar to the response in the sdesc-sniffing thread where people suggest that you just deny: sure, you can do that. I normally do too. But once a player knows OOCly that you did something and has decided to make life hell for your character, no amount of denial will convince them ICly. That's of course a generalization, but my experiences say that a player who makes OOC-motivated accusations in the first place will continue to play unfairly. If you covered a failed theft on them but was the only other PC in the room, you can bet your ass that there's a big chance they'll forever know you as a thief and act ICly on it. It has happened so many times.

It goes further than just thief roleplay, though. Many players seem to have an almost compulsive instinct to find out things OOCly that their character doesn't know. Anyone who has sat at a bar with their hood up and had five contact-withdraws in as many minutes knows what I'm talking about. Anyone playing a rogue magicker who gets accused because they failed to show talent in any of the main guild areas knows. Anyone who was walking down the street in a hood and had some other PC following them for six rooms just so they could get a look at you knows. Anyone attempting to mug someone while fully disguised only to later find a tavern post with a replica of their description knows. It's just these things that I wanted to address, and to ask the playerbase who might not be thinking about their actions when they do it to please include more realism in their roleplay. I only posted about thieves because that's where I've seen it the most, but maybe my post should simply have read:

Please use any knowledge you gain realistically compared to what your character would know, and please don't go out of your way to gain knowledge by OOC means and then use it to cause IC consequences for someone.

[Mudder]

Yeah, this can be a problem. I can name two situations in when it happened to me in that past years and I have never played another again. One, I was outside of a tavern and tried stealing from an npc, I failed but I didn't have a critical fail where it gave my sdesc away, almost instantly, a pc in the tavern came running out and accusing me because I was the only pc around.

Another, is when I had a successful steal from a pc. I watched him from afar and timed my attempt at stealing the item.  With ease I got it, and to my suprise the next ic day the man tracked me down and demanded that I give his item back. How would he know it was me in a crowded bar with 7 other pc's when I had a successful steal?

And on the other side of the playing field. Theives can be just in the wrong as the accusers.

[LoD]

Emoting isn't all that my original post is about though, but my personal opinion is that it's sad that thieves don't have any freedom to emote their action because people don't want to know OOCly that they were stolen from.

My question would be, "What is it you want to happen?"

Are you suggesting something?  Was this just a frustrated complaint about how a portion of the playerbase has trouble RPing being stolen from when the thief is taking steps to be suspicious or obvious to the player?  Are you hoping that the people guilty of such behavior will read this discussion and ponder whether they should or shouldn't continue such practices?

It appears that most are in agreement that to be a successful thief across the board, one must fool both the character and the player.  This is not to say that people are in agreement that this is how things should be, but how they are.  Several other discussions on the GDB have demonstrated that there will always be a variety of ways the players interpret the gameworld around them.

For some players, the code is the judge, jury, and executioner on every single question.  If the code allows it, then it is fine.  If the code allows me to sneak away in the middle of a one-on-one conversation on a deserted street, then it's OK.  If the code allows me to flee/backstab 10 times, then it must be OK.  If a thief emotes bumping into me, then I have every right to interpret that rare and suspect behavior as a possible theft attempt and am completely justified in fingering the person who bumped me.

For other playres, the code is a necessary evil for helping make decisions where interests are conflicted.  These players have faith in their fellows that the scene and realistic character development will be more important than the 200 coins in their backpack, or the new sword on their belt.  They are willing to let their characters make mistakes even when the player notices something is awry.  These players are the few that actually stop when a raider shouts, "Halt" or emote ignorance when a thief bumps into them on their way out the door, or let a character die of poison even though the player knows the cure.

The trouble is we can argue one over the other until we're blue in the face, but it won't ever change the fact that players of any game are going to differ in maturity, expectations, reasons for playing, definition of fun, levels of trust in their fellow players, and more.  There will always be the guy backstabbing kids in the 'rinth because he wants to improve the skill regardless of the fact that backstabbing kids is a pretty sick and twisted action that would seem acceptable only to the truly disturbed.

So, knowing all this, I'd ask again, "What is it you want to happen?"

The people who will listen probably aren't the problem.  And the people who are the problem probably won't listen.  So, if you don't want advice on how to be a successful thief in a world of varied IC and OOC perspectives, then I don't know what more there is to say.

-LoD

[Tarx]

I liked that response.  

I've always enjoyed RPing with shady types, and the only times I definitely "caught" a thief was when, well...they sucked at it.  Usually, if never "see" them but only their emotes, I am content with that.

And thieves are doing great anyway.  Organized thievery at least.  Lots of characters sell stuff.  Try buying something that you know nothing about...I'll wager your character will end up paying a totally stupendous amount more than one that knows a lot about that particular item and how to create/acquire it.  And that kind of thievery, I'm perfectly content with.

Not that that there's anything wrong with the blatant kind.

[Hymwen]

What do I want? I simply want to remind people that they don't necessarily need to use any and all means possible to deal with thieves. I'm not saying they should cut thieves slack, but neither should they go beyond logic and realism when accusing/chasing thieves.

Do I expect the people in question to read this thread? Probably not most of them, but I don't think ignoring the problem is a better alternative. For the same reason that cigarette packages tell you that smoking is unhealthy even though smokers obviously ignore that, I don't think it's a bad idea to have an active thread where people can discuss their opinions on the matter, whether or not the people I think should read it will do so. And my opinion is that too many people are being really poor with their response roleplay.

That's a perception. An opinion. It might even be elitist and/or exaggarated. It's still how I've felt every time I've played a thief, and it's the thing that has caused me not to want to play one again. To put it in blunt honesty, I think a lot of people are twinking out in any situation where their character stands to risk anything whatsoever, be it their lives (where I can be more forgiving) or their 30 'sid dagger. Maybe what I want is for the staff to acknowledge the problem, because I have never seen or heard of anyone ever being reprimended for the above described behaviour, whereas I have seen players of thieves punished and the theft code mutilated to the point where I doubt there are ever more than 2-3 PC pickpockets in the game at any given time. A lot of people are playing in a way that makes it look like they, not their characters, feel insulted when they're stolen from.

So I am addressing and responding to the problem in hopes that people who don't realize that their "victim roleplay" might be rubbish will think about it and try to be more realistic about it. The emoting thing was only a portion of the issue, but it seems that most of the response is concerning that. I realize opinions vary and not everyone agrees as to what is or isn't responsible and realistic roleplay, but some of the situations I've seen and been in really were ugly enough that I felt it needed to be addressed. The whole issue is difficult because noone likes to be told how to play, and everyone has their own opinion in what is the right or wrong way to do something. I just don't agree in the apparently common opinion that it's the thief's responsibility to make absolutely sure that the victim character and player never have a clue that anything is going on, and that failure to do so means the victim is within rights to go to outrageous lengths to deal with it.

And then I hope that the next version of the game has a code that doesn't completely work against thieves (or other "bad guys" for that matter) in almost every way possible.

[Spud]

This is one of the games problems that can't be fixed since it depends on the players, and most don't care aslong as they don't get 'caught'.

[Folker]

Ermh. Well actually many people 'do' care, whether caught or not. I know I have done some things that I would consider ... dictated by a desire for survivability of my character then any roleplaying reason, untill I have read a good discussion about it.

I 'have' read though, that if people draw their weapons whenever they think a thief is near, not to be ready to cut them up, but because it's impossible to steal weapons if they're wielded, can indeed inspire the Imms to some immortal fury so to speak =) So I am 'positive' I read an Imm mentioning it that if this really happens, it should be reported.

[path]

jmordetsky also makes a very good point.

[Rhyden]

Everyone has a different opinion on everything in Armageddon.

Thieving is one of those topics that everyone has a different opinion on. It's one of the many things in Armageddon that makes this game very difficult to understand how to play for everyone.

When we have so many vague rules and settings in Arm, we have to have a certain level of OOC trust in our fellow players a lot of the time for things like thieving, combat, raiding, magick, skill-enhancement and wealth-increase. One of the many things the immortals do is help reinforce this trust level in Armageddon. But they can't police everyone, everywhere all the time. So, there has to be a certain level of trust.

But there are a lot of players who haven't played Armageddon long enough to understand this trust level needed to play fair or the players themselves just aren't trustworthy some or all of the time.

My point is that I can think of two ways around this and the several other similar situations:

1. Everyone plays fairly and is trustworthy in an OOC sense
2. The code, rules and atmosphere are made less vague

So until one or the other happens, you're going to be stuck with players you think are playing unfairly OOC. That's a given.

Play fairly OOC yourself, contact the immortals if it's appropriate and try to enjoy the game.

[Rindan]

It isn't an issue of fair or unfair.  It is an issue of interpretation.  We have the code to the interpreting for a lot of things for a very good reason.  We want the player to be left free interpret the world in his own way, rather then having to bicker back and forth with other players about what REALLY happened.

The issue with giving clues that you are a thief while you are  thieving is that you are handing off nice objective interpretation that the code can do for to the subjective realm of the players.  It is like emoting that you try and hit someone.  The fact that you decided not to use the code means that they get to decide what happens.  If you don't like that, stick to the code.  When you are stealing, if you want to emote bumping people or what-not, you are handing over interpretation to other players.  Just like how a mercenary might decide that he is going to dodge your emoted punch because he is a bad ass, a noble aid might decide that he is going to put two and two together and realize that you bumped into him right as his shit when missing.

Seriously, just don't hand over that control.  Ignore the GDB, DON'T put on a show, and simply RP in ways that don't attract attention.  It is easily do-able.  I have played a merry pick pocket who has stolen piles of l00t without getting fingered for the crimes.  I RPed to my hearts content, but I just made sure that I wasn't being obvious about it.  I am more then happy to think (and now hemote) the subtle movements of my character rather then broadcast them.  It isn't hard to defeat people OOCly putting two and two together unless you are running around dressed like a vagabond.