Roleplaying against thieves

[Hymwen]

I want to address an issue that I've met again and again. My favorite guild is pickpocket so I play it often, and if anyone want to complain about twink thieves, you should try being at the other end. Surprisingly many people will go to extreme OOC-motivated lengths to prove someone a thief or to make themselves immune, even if it makes no sense ICly, or comes at the expense of realism. If you ever so much as emote very vaguely during a theft, or fail a peek attempt, you might as well move to a different town because due to the relatively low playerbase, you're a lot more visible among people than any random Amos would be in a 500.000-people city-state, and a surprising number of people suddenly notice you all the time and take unreasonable interest in you just because you're one PC out of twenty instead of 1/500.000.

At the risk of breaking IC information rules (an imm can edit my post if they see fit), I've had an experience where I stole (succesfully) from a PC and emoted brushing past them in a crowded tavern, something that should be happening constantly to everyone in the room. The next day I was a known thief to just about every PC in the city, and people were reacting as if I was the only thief and that it was something unheard of.

Unless you want thieves to stop emoting altogether, and use only code in their play, please play more realistically and be more responsible in choosing what your character would notice and how they would deal with it. Yes if you catch a thief you're fully entitled to playing a pissed off character, and yes you're allowed to tell your buddies (ICly), but in a city-state full of poverty, a suspected thief would normally not be the main subject among gossippers unless said thief was an important noble's aide or something similar. I'm not asking you to ignore all but actual failed theft attempts, but please be more aware of your environment, what your character would notice, if they would expect precisely the 34th person to brush past them to be a thief, and are you really going through and checking your pack, your various belt-pouches, your cloak, your pants pocket and your three sheaths every time someone comes in physical contact with you?

Also, if your character suspects/knows somebody is a thief, use watch realistically. It is probably not realistic for your character to watch a certain other person at all times, week after week, regardless of what you're doing. I have had people who would perpetually watch me on every occasion, despite the fact they were across a crowded tavern and in deep conversation, emoting doing all kinds of other things that would make watching someone closely quite impossible. Just because you can make yourself practically immune to theft with a single no-risk command does not mean you should do it no matter what. Play responsibly and realistically and perhaps thieves will start doing the same.

[seriously]

All valid points, but I think you should not be afraid to use hemote.

[X-D]

And my reply is...

Bah humbug. Like many RP complaints, though yours "might" Be legit, you simply cannot know it is.

I've had PCs, for reasons of thier own accuse people of being thieves, mindbenders, mages whatever without at all knowing if they really are, or caring.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard.

[Hymwen]

All valid points, but I think you should not be afraid to use hemote.

I'm not afraid to use hemote. However, one thing that players complained about in the past was that thieves were playing in a way where targets never knew it happened, thus creating one-sided roleplay. Hemotes have a very small chance of being noticed, you might as well not do it if your goal is to include the target and make it interesting for both parties. I've wanted to try that, but have been fiercely discouraged by many players' reactions. The point of my post was that if players want thieves to be something other than items disappearing from your inventories now and then, they shouldn't use all means (often unrealistic and unreasonable) to combat them. Stick to what makes sense for your character.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

I think I was very deliberate in explaining that if it actually makes sense for your character, watching/accusing is just fine. It looks to me like you're presuming what my thief characters are so that your argument makes sense - one of the things I wanted to address, as explained above, is situations where people are using watch unreasonably and not roleplaying accordingly. Yes I have been watched by people who were playing cards and watching bards and even crafting in the corner, and yes I have experienced it happening for IC months on every occasion where my character met theirs, even though all mine did was fail a peek attempt once.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard.

You're assuming that my thief characters are wearing dark, hooded cloaks and footpads, and sneaking in and out of taverns. I specifically avoid that, yet because there are only so many guilds and because it's often easy to recognize at least half of them simply by their equipment or job, anything that doesn't fall into that category is often suspected unreasonably because there's no "commoner" or "no-guild" option. Some people are, perhaps unconciously, thinking "so it's not a warrior, carries no weapons, doesn't work for any clans and isn't wearing anything craftable. Must be a thief". You might have the luxury of having your guild easily determined by your appearance, but it would make absolutely no IC sense for my character to start wearing desert gear or chitin armor and toting swords or bows or sewing kits just so people wouldn't automatically suspect that he/she is a thief. Looking at my thief characters, the only thing I can see that would make anyone suspect it at first glance is the fact that they're not wearing anything that confirms that they're something else.

[Armaddict]

One of the issues that I personally don't mind occasionally being called a twink.

Sometimes you try to play and people screw you over for it, or you play IC but without emotes and such, and they say you screwed them.

It's just like raiding.  Neither side can really trust the other to use what you give them responsibly.  Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it also -doesn't- happen, and when it's not handled in a cool way, someone always gets fucked.

[X-D]

I'm assuming nothing, Please, read and understand a post before replying.

Here, let me help you.

And my reply is...

Bah humbug. Like many RP complaints, though yours "might" Be legit, you simply cannot know it is. (Only the other player and staff know)
I've had PCs, for reasons of thier own accuse people of being thieves, mindbenders, mages whatever without at all knowing if they really are, or caring.

As to watch, if you are acting like a thief, expect to be treated as a potential thief. If My PC notices you failing sneak, standing in the tavern with your dark cloaks hood pulled up, or my Fav, wearing footpads in the barrel, Guess what, he is going to pay attention, Why, because Your PC is the one he noticed, not the others around who might also be thieves but are better at being un-noticed. If he goes to the tavern every day and sees you there every day without visible means of support, eventually he is going to think you are a thief, or at the very least odd and in need of keeping an eye on.

My PC brushes past people all the time, yet for some odd reason he has never been accused of being a thief. Oh wait, its not odd, he looks like something other then somebody trying to be a sneaky bastard

Now, because in your OP you gave little to go on, and maybe rightly so, I used the word IF in mine, because I can only point to Possibilities.

You might have the luxury of having your guild easily determined by your appearance, but it would make absolutely no IC sense for my character to start wearing desert gear or chitin armor and toting swords or bows or sewing kits just so people wouldn't automatically suspect that he/she is a thief. Looking at my thief characters, the only thing I can see that would make anyone suspect it at first glance is the fact that they're not wearing anything that confirms that they're something else.

Again I'm going to have to say that you are wrong, your PC has EVERY IC reason to do such things.

In real life you would as well. If you are a pick pocket in real life there are several ways to go about it, BUT, one of the best ways is simply to BE, or at least LOOK like somebody who would NEVER be blamed or accused, somebody who the idea of them picking pockets would simply never enter thier minds. IRL if I was a pick pocket, I would Most likley dress as a priest. Or a construction worker, or a doctor. Because nobody would ever suspect me in a crowd.

I would also pick my mark and timing carefully, I would wait for the long-haired guy in a leather jacket to pass by my mark, I would probly bump my scapegoat into the mark then pick both pockets on my way by, the mark would never suspect that the kindly priest just robbed him.

And you admit your PC does not wear anything pointing at them maybe not being a thief, then well, Um, thats putting your PC as the Most likley suspect.

And let me say one more time, because I cannot stress this point enough, Unless you are on staff or have other means to see thinks, feels etc. You CANNOT know if they are role playing properly or not.

[BuNutzCola]

My character was pickpocketed for something very valueable to him a while back. I saw the player emote brushing past him, knew 100% I'd been had but my character just complained about the stupid cities being crowded. He found his item had been stolen later, but ICly there was no reason for him to have noticed before, people brush past you in a crowded pavilion all the time.

Not really sure why I posted, I guess just to say not everyone twinks out when they are robbed from.

[HoD]

I say, to help our swift handed brothers, we as roleplayers emote bumping into people in bars. Its crowed, and it happens all the time, do it, even if your not a thief, if your on your way to the bar, emote bumping past a few standing people, a chair - whatever.

[X-D]

Don't get me wrong, I play my PCs as pretty thief friendly, Don't keep everything locked down, not notice shit, but if it looks like a thief, even if its not, they will likley act like it anyway, thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Plus bumping people and such, fun fun.

[HoD]

Don't get me wrong, I play my PCs as pretty thief friendly, Don't keep everything locked down, not notice shit, but if it looks like a thief, even if its not, they will likley act like it anyway, thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Plus bumping people and such, fun fun.

If they look like a thief, and act like a thief, then watch their ass, but we should make it so if someone emotes bumping into you, doesn't make everyone check their stuff.

[Morfeus]

There are excellent played thieves and there are poor played ones. There are excellent played victims and there are poor played ones. If you walk in the tavern with a stolen blazing steel sword of doom and happily agree that you stole it, don't be surprised about consequences. If you are doing everything to not be recongized as a thief and you still are, it's sad and brings questions if emoting is the only problem.

I had a character who accused quite a few characters for being half-breeds (as soon as he saw some hints... which were often totally wrong). As soon as he decided the said person is a breed, he accused him for being a thief (no matter their job, clan, weapons, clothes). *shrug* It was fun.

Morfeus

PS. I don't really mind if a thief is not emoting at all, especially if stealing only that fifty coins from my inv.

[Wykydtronn]

Thief is a tough gig, Icly and even OOCly.
People can become extremely attached to their characters, so its only natural that they can be extremely protective.  Espeically in Armageddon, where even 30 sid can be the difference between death and getting water.  People don't like to take the risk and they sure as hell don't want to see their character just die because a pickpocket robbed them of everything they own.

The OOC fustrations stem from the fact that no one wants to lose and when it comes to raiding or even pick pocketing, some ones bound to lose.

I think, its come to a point where we all need to do is stop being so "hyper-aware" of our surroundings and learn to throw caution to the wind.

I personally having played many thieves over many games and table top sessions have learn to trust the player behind the thief because I've been there personally.  
I usually (if I can afford it) leave a small amount of sid (50-200) in my inventory.  First because I think its clunky having to remove the 2000 pile of coins from the back pack just buy a 11 sid drink and second because thieves need to eat too.  My character isn't even aware something is missing even if I the player knew I had 100 sid instead of 30.  Why? Because my characters drink a lot or stuff falls out of pockets... or what ever.  Shit happens, theft happens, think of an IC reason.

I'm tired... and rambling... and possibly making tyops.
Anyways my original point is: Put yourself in the other guys shoes.
As a victim you need to realize that the thief's player is just trying to fill out a role, a role that in many ways contributes to the game.
As a thief, if you respect your fellow players. The thing is, stealing a whole inventory of stuff is bound to piss some one off...  20-100 sid is easier to forget.  Self control and realism is the name of the game.

All in all, if every player just simply learns to bite bullets and take the good with the bad, we all would be a lot better off. (not to mention these "TWINKS!" threads would stop).  

Anyways In a game like Armageddon, You're going to die anyway.

[Pantoufle]

I've always maintained that there is more coded abuse from thief victims than from thieves.  The great irony is that thieves are the ones who are on the receiving end of the OOC persecution and consequently great pains are implemented to make life harder for thieves - what about making life harder for thief victims?

Before any of the changes to steal, the implementation of the watch command, etc., thief victims could already make themselves 100% steal proof.  Who needs a watch command?  Just close your rucksack!  Now it's even harder still to be an accomplished thief.

However, I would never make the mistake of OOCly revealing that I am the thief by emoting the old 'Bump in the Shoulder' routine.  Firstly, because I've tried it in the past and there is about .0001% of the playerbase who will actually go along with it.  Secondly, because RPing in Arm is about what you don't know.  The entire system is implemented to prevent players from not knowing certain bits of information so that they can get into their role even better: if you don't know something OOC then you definitely don't IC.  If you emote bumping into someone after a successful steal attempt, you're basically forcing them to RP not knowing something which, in actuality, they do.  This type of RP is prevalent in MUSHes, where players sometimes even OOCly orchestrate their own death, knowing full well in advance what fate awaits their character and playing him or her as though they don't.  But that's the difference between storytelling and RPing.  Here, we RP.  We basically ARE our characters.  And as such I don't want to know you've stolen from me OOCly and then have to act out not knowing.  I would much prefer to be kept in the dark about what sneaky things are happening to my character and if I find out, I want it to be because I caught you through IC means rather than OOC means.  As sad and as contradictory to RPing as it may sound, the bump in the shoulder while stealing tactic is little more than simply feeding OOC information to someone.

And like as not, this game is actually one tiny little village.  Even if there are virtual thousands or tens of thousands, you'll be hard pressed to find one player who can wrap their head around this idea, even if they say otherwise.  So for all the reasons stated above, the only recommendation I can make to the thieves of the game is don't emote when stealing (but feel free to semote or hemote until your heart's content).  It's like nodding while you are invisible, it forces the player to know someone is there and have to pretend they don't.

[Majikal]

I prefer little knowledge of the theft taking place. I'll notice it later when I realize I'm missing my serrated Ivory dagger, or my intricate bone flute from my hip. The only time I like the thief to RP out what is happening is if it is absolutely required because of the layout of the room or the item in question. The code doesn't show the other fella that you jacked their shit for that reason exactly.

[Rindan]

1)  If you are a thief, don't let your victims know who you are, even OOCly.  Seriously, it is a stupid idea.  Don't worry about the whining and complaining on the GDB because someone lost the 3 'sid that wasn't locked down in their backpack fortress and they don't know who it was.  Role play your theft, but use the tools given to you that let you role play the theft in secret.

2)  You might think you are living in a city of half a million, but you are not.  You are living in a city of about 20.  As a result, see above.

3)  Don't look like a thief.  Carry around a sewing kit and sell clothes or whatever.  That doesn't mean that you don't have to have your dark hooded cloak in your backpack, just don't wear it into favorite tavern.

4)  Use criminal areas.  You don't actually need to do any of the above if you simply use the criminal areas of respective cities.  Don't hang out in the Barrel if you are going to steal from there.  Yeah, it sucks in terms of interaction, but that is life.  Hang out where you steal, and you are going to find yourself facing a Templar sooner or later.  You can live a very long time as a blatant thief/spice dealer/criminal if you don't live in the city proper.

5)  See point 1 again.  Don't let people know you are a thief OOCly.  Seriously, just ignore the crying on the GDB.  Thieves  have gotten the shaft and continue to get the shaft on a regular basis.  Screw what the rest of the players think.  You don't owe them any emotes or a wink wink nudge nudge that you just stole from them.  If you start dropping hints that you stole from them, don't act all surprised if they use those hints to catch you.  DON'T GIVE OUT OOC INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE A THIEF.

[Maybe42or54]

Just be an average schmoe and steal?

Yea, I'm a thief. And I stole your knickers. You don't want me to stare at you everyday? Pay me off.

[Kennath]

I'm so going to have everyone one of my characters bump into everyone in the bar now.

The tall muscular man shouts "Thief!"

The tall muscular man asks you "Er, what did you steal?"

-Ken

[Tlaloc]

Maybe the solution to this would be to have randomized bump-code. Anytime your PC is detected as walking (or even standing) in any direction, there's a chance you'll bump into someone.

It's kind of a silly idea, but the only way I can think of other than to convince non-thieves to RP occasionally bumping into people - which probably should happen more often anyway.

[Dalmeth]

I personally think the best way to prevent people from getting too annoyed with thieves is to take things that they constantly acquire, like coins, food, and water.  Taking away things they constantly use, like their 20 sid skinning knife, bright, shiny torch, and that dingy facewrap, just makes theft a real hassle.

I personally have never understood why thieves can't just wait until people take out their coins at bars.  Is it truly that hard?

[jhunter]

The biggest problem I had when playing a thieving pc is this situation:

You are in an area that is ICly crowded as hell, vnpcs, a couple of coded npcs, another pc and you (the thief). Your pc is the type of "smart thief" that attempts to fit in instead of dressing or acting shady in any way at all.

You attempt to lift something from the other pc and fail. Not a critical failure mind you, but one that lets them know -someone- had a hand on their stuff, just not that it was specifically -you-.

The intended victim then, immediately turns on you (because OOCly you're the only pc in the room even though it is full of other people ICly) bitches you out for trying to steal from them/threatens you, or spreads the word to all their friends/soldiers/nobles/templars/etc. which in turn, ends up with your pc in trouble with the authorities, dead, or every other pc immediately locks up all their stuff as soon as they are aware of your presence.
This is my biggest peeve about potential victim's roleplay in those situations. The code will tell you whether or not you saw -who- had a hand on your stuff. (And even then, ICly that doesn't necessarily mean that every damned pc is going to assume it was an attempt at theft.)

Unless the code says specifically that you -know- who had a hand on your stuff, your pc has -no fucking reason- to turn on the only other visible pc around and accuse them. I understand of course that there are the rare exceptions but they should be just that, -rare-.

This sort of crap is just plain abuse of OOC information in my opinion and fits along with what someone else stated about not giving away -any- OOC information that you might be a thief because people tend to abuse it.

[jhunter]

I personally think the best way to prevent people from getting too annoyed with thieves is to take things that they constantly acquire, like coins, food, and water.  Taking away things they constantly use, like their 20 sid skinning knife, bright, shiny torch, and that dingy facewrap, just makes theft a real hassle.

I personally have never understood why thieves can't just wait until people take out their coins at bars.  Is it truly that hard?

Dalmeth, theft isn't convenient in real life and it -is- a hassle. If it wasn't, noone would care about it and it probably wouldn't be against the law.
What makes more sense? Swiping a couple of coins, a biscuit, etc...or swiping that skinning knife that they can sell to get more coins, more biscuits, etc?

That's like saying a thief should be checking out someone's possessions and saying to themselves:
"Hrrmm...I see that fifty 'sid blade on his belt...but I think I'll wait and see if I can snatch a couple coins instead. I wouldn't want to inconvenience him."  :shock:

[Agent_137]

I'm actually with rindan on this one.

The imms made hemote for a reason, and that reason was for sneaky people.

Use it.


p.s.

If you emote brushing past me, then I see it, and I ICly and OOCly know I was brushed past. But how many times was I brushed without noticing it? It's a crowded tavern, afterall. A successful thief in real life bumps against someone, and they forget, they don't notice. Do the same. use hemote.

[jhunter]

Don't let people know you are a thief OOCly. Seriously, just ignore the crying on the GDB. Thieves have gotten the shaft and continue to get the shaft on a regular basis. Screw what the rest of the players think. You don't owe them any emotes or a wink wink nudge nudge that you just stole from them. If you start dropping hints that you stole from them, don't act all surprised if they use those hints to catch you. DON'T GIVE OUT OOC INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE A THIEF.

Very true. In fact, some of us (as the victim) do -not- want to know OOCly. If my pc doesn't know it, I would prefer not to know either. I personally find giving the OOC hints that they were the one who stole from you to be kind of like rubbing your nose in it.

[Hymwen]

Hemote and semote are only used for certain things, definitely not something like brushing past, bumping into or leaning over someone in a tavern or whatever thieves like to use to get into pockets. If you want to do that, emote is the only way to go (until we get targeted hemote, hint hint) unless you want to just steal with no emotes whatsoever, which is annoying for the target and, in my opinion, boring for the thief. But again and again it has been proven to me that any kind of interaction during theft is an incredibly bad idea because people will not only somehow find out you were a thief even though you never failed, but often go to completely unreasonable lengths when they deal with it. Hemote and semote have specific purposes and should not be used just because you don't want your target to see.

[Hymwen]

In real life you would as well. If you are a pick pocket in real life there are several ways to go about it, BUT, one of the best ways is simply to BE, or at least LOOK like somebody who would NEVER be blamed or accused, somebody who the idea of them picking pockets would simply never enter thier minds. IRL if I was a pick pocket, I would Most likley dress as a priest. Or a construction worker, or a doctor. Because nobody would ever suspect me in a crowd.

I shouldn't have to wear anything particular to avoid automatically being accused of being a thief. If you see somebody and you can't immediately tell that they're a warrior, a Kadian crafter, a gemmer, a desert traveller and so on, does that mean they must be a thief? Your logic is void. Yes, disguise is one thing that can work, but it shouldn't be a requirment. Stop thinking in guilds.