Half-giants and karma requirements

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Since the change in the combat code, hitting opponents has become a lot easier than it was before. Consequently, half-giants are hitting more often where they used to have a lot more difficulty hitting due to their low agility. This is making half-giants significantly more dangerous than they were before.

In the past, a moderately skilled half-giant warrior attacking a moderately skilled non-HG warrior would have a hard time landing blows and would get hit more often than other races in the same scenario. If the HG did manage to nail a blow, it was for enormous damage and sometimes an instant knockout depending on weapon type and body hit location.

If we also take into account the changes to NPC delays that have made soldier NPCs avoidable by running, half-giants can run around a city and smash opponents to pieces even at 0 day old status. I've recently run into a case where a half-giant PC was responsible for a few PC fatalies inside a city, and it made me start thinking about how half-giants have become even more dangerous than ever.

Considering half-giants are the most instant-kill capable karma selection you can make from right out of char creation, even moreso now than was the case previously, I'm proposing that half-giants require a higher karma than 3. Code issues aside, I've also been of the opinion that a half-giant is one of the most difficult races to roleplay appropriately, and putting a higher karma requirement may produce more reasonably portrayed half-giants. What does everyone else think about half-giant PCs, both from an RP perspective and from the perspective of the new combat code/crim code?

[Forty Winks]

Not to mention preventing a large population of half-giants IG such as recently since the new code. Or perhaps that is just my imagination... :wink:

In any case, I'm all for making half-giants higher in karma, but in exchange, what would fill the spot for 3 karma? The karma requirements for magickers I feel is fine as they are, so somethings will have to be shifted around to place as 3 karma.

[mansa]

I do that with my dwarf no problem already.  I disagree.  3 karma is worth SPOON!

Perhaps nobody realizes, but some players who have been playing the game longer than a year do not have Half-Giant karma.

[spawnloser]

Um...I disagree.  A mul of any class is MUCH more dangerous than a HG out the gate.

[Hymwen]

I agree with the original poster. I've been thinking about the same things recently, especially because of the rather high number of current half-giant PCs. From what I've heard it's pretty easy to special app for a half-giant even if you have just 1 karma, and to put it crudely, I think very few of the half-giants I meet are roleplayed well.

And yes, muls are more powerful than half-giants. They're also the second highest on the karma rank, they're extremely restricted in what they can do, and there's not 5+ of them in each city.

[spawnloser]

And yes, muls are more powerful than half-giants. They're also the second highest on the karma rank, they're extremely restricted in what they can do, and there's not 5+ of them in each city.

Fair enough, but half-giants are also highly visible, thought not as noticeable as muls to the average Arm player.  Still, a mul in a cloak is often not as noticed as a half-giant in or out of disguise.  Half-giants are very visible and anything they do can easily result in some form of complaint if people perceive it as wrong.

[jhunter]

If the changes did improve hgs and make them more lethal....GOOD! They were underpowered anyway due to the detriments of such extremely low agility, IMO unrealistically so.

If the change has made them hit more often and made them more dangerous this is a good thing.

I don't think any karma change is needed either. People going around abusing half-giants won't keep their half-giant karma long.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm going to have to throw my two 'sids against a karma increase as well.  3 karma is nothing to sneeze at.  Sure, they may not be played well (HGs are indeed tricky to play), but were they playing abusivly?  (if so, there are ways to deal with that not including a karma raise)

I think the inherent power of HGs (which I did feel was a bit on the lacking side before) is balanced by the limited training opportunities.  They already learn far slower than any other race, but in addition most organizations don't let other humanoids spar with half-giants.  They learn combat through experience, putting their lives on the line, rather than in a nice padded sparring hall.

Also... the HG population is a phase, just like when there are too many magickers or too many half-elves.  People never learn...  :roll:

[Rhyden]

Honestly, it's getting a bit irritating seeing thread after thread complaining about half-giants and/or the new combat changes.

What Moe said: Yes, there's a few half-giant PCs around in game these days. It's a trend, it happens with magickers, half-elves, desert elves, petite PCs and raven-haired ones too.

Yes, these half-giants are strong. They're half-giants. Yes, they're gonna kick the shit out of your humanoid character, most likely.

But with power comes a huge concequence with half-giants. They're not very intelligent, easy to manipulate, difficult to employ even more difficult to train.

Half-giants, like everyone else, have their weaknesses and like every other PC, they can die.

Half-giants can be fat, they can be cookie cutters and yup, they require karma. I like them how they are.

[Morrolan]

Maybe, just maybe, there are more half-giants around since the code changes because they don't die so easily any more?

[creeper386]

Eh, I've been playing Arm for quite awhile now, although rarely in any sort of role that previously probably seen much staff viewage before they starting having staff for everything, so perhaps it's just gone unnoticed or I am a bad RPer ... SHRUG.

But, half-giants are one of the things I've always wanted to play but don't have the karma for, and just me personally would hate to see the goal of possibly getting to play one even further put out of reach, special app not included.

I think alot of the reasons they are RPed poorly is not neccessarily because they are hard to play, there just has never been any real good examples to model anything after. Lack of knowledge of how something is played doesn't equate to just making bad choices when playing.

But again, 3 karma is up there aways. And yes half-giants are physically powerful, but they are also fairly limited in other ways.

Plus, as it's been stating in some of the combat codes, alot of peoples defense skills were stuck at being low, they problem was fixed, but they didnt' go around and manually raise everyones defense, so it may end up being that abit down the road, half-giants are back to not hitting too often, which in my opinion is a bad idea. As with that much reach they have a good chance of being able to hit something, every so often.

Just my few horrible horrible thoughts.

[Agent_137]

hey creeper.

special app.

[Ktavialt]

I do that with my dwarf no problem already.  I disagree.  3 karma is worth SPOON!

Perhaps nobody realizes, but some players who have been playing the game longer than a year do not have Half-Giant karma.

Yep, I have been playing pretty consistently for three years, and very, very
off and on for four years before that, and up until very recently received
enough karma for a Half-giant (although the staff has been quite generous
with my special apps prior to that, anyways).

- Ktavialt

[Hymwen]

I know at least a couple of 0 or 1 karma players who have been playing for less than 6 months but had no trouble getting their half-giant special apps approved. It's not so much the potential power of half-giants that worries me, it's more the fact that almost anyone can get to play one.

[Cenghiz]

After training in their temple for days and days (let's call it twenty days), rukkians are far far far far far far far far far far more powerful than a half-giant can ever be.
Rukkians require two karma points. Point taken?

[Cyrian20]

Not to mention preventing a large population of half-giants IG such as recently since the new code. Or perhaps that is just my imagination... :wink:

In any case, I'm all for making half-giants higher in karma, but in exchange, what would fill the spot for 3 karma? The karma requirements for magickers I feel is fine as they are, so somethings will have to be shifted around to place as 3 karma.

That is simple, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7... we switch 2 to 6

1 3 4 5 6 2 7

The imms just make the decision at two karma if they are ready for three (like they would for four) Also it isn't really a leveling system, as there are players that have access to something much higher because they role-played them so well in a spec app. So there is no worry about replacing a slot or that certain karma is suddenly easier to get.

[jhunter]

After training in their temple for days and days (let's call it twenty days), rukkians are far far far far far far far far far far more powerful than a half-giant can ever be.
Rukkians require two karma points. Point taken?

So true.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

After training in their temple for days and days (let's call it twenty days), rukkians are far far far far far far far far far far more powerful than a half-giant can ever be.
Rukkians require two karma points. Point taken?

I'd appreciate it if you re-read the original post before making anymore contributions to the thread.

Considering half-giants are the most instant-kill capable karma selection you can make from right out of char creation, even moreso now than was the case previously, I'm proposing that half-giants require a higher karma than 3.

[Agent_137]

I don't understand this thread's point.

How many people save up 3 karma just so they can go on an insta kill spree  with their 3 hour old HG?

[mansa]

Agent_137:

Karma's not like Counterstrike where you don't buy guns one round to save up and spend all your money on an awp on the next round.

Karma lets you make magicker after magicker after magicker once you have that option in your character creation screen, and you don't have to clear your character with someone else.

Of course, you already know this...

[Agent_137]

quit buyin guns and lagging it up

[manonfire]

Agent_137:

Karma's not like Counterstrike where you don't buy guns one round to save up and spend all your money on an awp on the next round.

Karma lets you make magicker after magicker after magicker once you have that option in your character creation screen, and you don't have to clear your character with someone else.

Of course, you already know this...

I get more kills with an mp5 than an awp.  

[Sanvean]

There are no current plans to change the karma restructions or criteria for special apps for half-giants.

[Cenghiz]

I read the first post again carefully.. Now I repeat.

A rukkian has much more potential for abuse. Why? Because they don't have to act like 7-year-old attention deficit discorder-crippled idiots. They can willingly direct their own actions and become dangerous. And one rukkian can become far more powerful than a half-giant may ever become. To make it worse, you need actual dangers like fighting creatures of the desert to train a half-giant but you need nothing but sitting in your temple with a gemmed rukkian.
Just because they start out strong, half-giants are not ultimate killing machines. As I repeat, even a rukkian has more potential for abuse and I'm sure there were more rukkians with powers abused than there were half-giants.

[Clearsighted]

Seems like most giants part of a real organization can find /someone/ willing to spar em. So I don't think the 'they're balanced cause they can only learn by fighting real threats' is absolutely correct.

Pretty rough on shields though.

Though, I don't think they're imbalanced either, stats wise. And I think the karma level for em is pretty accurate.

[daedroug]

Seems like most giants part of a real organization can find /someone/ willing to spar em. So I don't think the 'they're balanced cause they can only learn by fighting real threats' is absolutely correct.

Pretty rough on shields though.

Though, I don't think they're imbalanced either, stats wise. And I think the karma level for em is pretty accurate.

Heh back when I was in Winnrothol I just had to laugh my ass of every time some one said they'd spar with the Half-giant, suffice it to say it's a -Very- stupid idea. I've seen people nearly killed by a half-giant in sparring matches and as a result i think any leader that has had to deal with this wouldn't let a half-gaint spar with any regular humanoid.

That being said I am of the opinion that HGs were plenty powerful before with out making them even more deadly, the fact that they can literally bash people ninto oblivion alone is dangerous enough. Still if they have become even more powerful i don't see why the staff would be motivated enough to change the Karma restriction on them

[Clearsighted]

Seems like most giants part of a real organization can find /someone/ willing to spar em. So I don't think the 'they're balanced cause they can only learn by fighting real threats' is absolutely correct.

Pretty rough on shields though.

Though, I don't think they're imbalanced either, stats wise. And I think the karma level for em is pretty accurate.

Heh back when I was in Winnrothol I just had to laugh my ass of every time some one said they'd spar with the Half-giant, suffice it to say it's a -Very- stupid idea. I've seen people nearly killed by a half-giant in sparring matches and as a result i think any leader that has had to deal with this wouldn't let a half-gaint spar with any regular humanoid.

Well. I have a non-karma race character that spars with 1-2 half-giants pretty much every RL day. Win most. Lose some. And I'm not even that good. Mostly its the armor repair bills. And I imagine before the changes to defense it was even easier. Mostly it's just a matter of avoiding fancy lag-inducing commands, and fleeing when appropiate. I've never gone below a damage threshold that I wouldn't go beyond when having a regular spar.

So it's not quite as difficult or unexpected as some might think. I've seen some HGs get some good experience. (Granted, they can only spar with a select 3-4.)

That said, it's never a match I look forward to. And ICly, it is always extremely serious and careful. (No matter how plaintive they look on with sad puppy dog eyes while everyone else neglects them.)

[creeper386]

Well, yes half-giants even at the start of the character could get in a lucky blow and crush someone much smaller then them, but that's how half-giants are supposed to be.

As for the people that said to special app, I wasn't complaining I didn't have the karma, I'm just saying that some people that I'm sure are very good RPers and contribute much to the game, still don't have the karma for half-giant, and considering that's really the first new race you get to play(delves are still elves) it's something to shoot for, but I don't want to bother the staff and load down the special apps just for a half-giant which might slow down someones special app that might add to the game world as a whole as opposed to the little area I might be playing in.

[Tisiphone]

Insofar as raising the karma restrictions of half-giants, I really think we should be making arguements as to the roleplayability of the race, rather than the potential for abuse. Karma 3 players are generally NOT the sort of people with the mindset of, "Ooh, I can make a half-giant and HULK SMASH!!!" I don't see very many half-giants going on random killing sprees, and I don't think that will change, even with the new code, because people with 3 karma have 3 karma because they care at least a little about the game.

That said, I do think that perhaps raising the karma requirement might be considered, solely because, from the various threads I've seen complaining about half-giants, they are very difficult to roleplay well. So perhaps people with only three karma don't yet have enough experience to handle them well.

[Majikal]

I don't think HG's should be nerfed but I do think an increase in karma would be alright. In my time with arm (more than a few years) I've had at least six occasions where walking down the road the only rp I got from an hg was

Code Select Expand


A half-giant says in sirihish:
"Gimme sid."

A half-giant subdues you, despite your attempts to wrestle away

A half-giant punches your arm, wounding you
You vision goes black

Welcome to armageddon!


Not enough well-played hgs in my opinion, in my time I've only crossed one or two hg's who I thought did exceptionally well.

[Barzalene]

As I mentioned before, I think the problem with half-giants is not how they are played, but how others play with them.

For instance if you spar with a half-giant and die, I don't think this is the fault of the half-giant, who by his nature is not looking ahead at possible problems that might arise from their actions, not the fault of the player of the half-giant for not saving you from your stupidity. It's your fault, and the fault of your pc for thinking that sparring with a half-giant might be a good idea.

As noted above by Tisiphone few play them as blood hungry socio-paths. If they fall in with the wrong crowd, they can be especially dangerous. That is kinda cool. Be careful who you piss off they might have big friends. Be careful of raiders, they may have a half-giant bop you atop your head. Yay!

More half-giants? Now they have more of their kind to interact with. I can see this being quite positive.

Not portrayed well? Well, look again at yourself. Are you treating them like retarded children or ignoring them? There are other ways to handle them. And the more varied your responses to them, the more you open up and broaden the narrow parameters of their role.

[creeper386]

I agree with Barz to a certain extent. I certainly know alot of how build my character is interaction through the enviroment and other people in the world.

But that's not all it is to it, half-giants in my opinion arent' played well because thats the only way people know how to play them.

People constantly state they've only seen one or two well played half-giants or what not ... Well, HOW were these half-giants played that made you think them superiour? How did they act ... With examples and information on how a half-giant should be played, you might see improvement on how they are played. Just saying, hey, the majority of you half-giants that are playing suck ass and you should never have been giving the chance to play them, isnt' going to help anything.

So, be constructive. If you think something is played poorly, then explain WHY, if you've seen half-giants played superiour to all others, again, examples as well as WHY you think that. It might make improvement on the game instead of just insulting them.

[Noble Envy]

Corrected post - editing error   :?

creeper386

I agree with Barz to a certain extent. I certainly know alot of how build my character is interaction through the enviroment and other people in the world.

I am with Creeper on this, everyone needs feedback, positive as well as negative.  In order to grow as a roleplayer, it is a boon to the gameworld overall, one should help others to achieve their personal goals.   I feel it is every players responsibility to want to improve the gameworld, no matter how insignificant the issue may appear to the general populace, by continually developing admirable expectations from themselves in addition to their fellow players.

Carry on!

N.E.