New delay on "draw" command

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I really love the new code delay, that kicks in after you draw a weapon.

Some things it does to the game:

1) makes you require more tactics planning when attempting to kill something quickly
2) makes one weapon fighters get an advantage over fighters who need to draw two weapons to dual wield
3) does not hinder defensive drawing because the delay comes after the draw, so you can still defend yourself instantly, but it makes a sudden attack without warning more difficult for attackers to pull off

I'd really, really love to see the same delay added to the "sheathe" command, so that it could add things like:

1) creating a speed advantage to just dropping your weapon hastily, instead of sheathing it
2) a subduer would now have reason to hastily drop his weapons when attempting to subdue someone quickly, instead of being able to sheathe them instantly before the subdue attempt (as is the case with the current code)
3) making people more wary about sheathing and drawing their weapons in general, because the whole process now takes time

So there's my initial observation on the change and an added suggestion. Let's see more feedback on the change in this thread.

[Yang]

Gives silent draw from sheathes more value. I think that seeing conveniently located sheathes on people for small, silently drawn knives will now look a little more badass. Those are just a couple thoughts.

[Twilight]

I wouldn't like to see sheath delay, as I think it would encourage guild sniffing.  There are some people out there that are more dangerous without a weapon in their hands than with one, but in order to not instantly give themselves away in certain situations, like wandering around in the wastes, need to have a weapon in hand.  To discourage guild sniffing.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I wouldn't like to see sheath delay, as I think it would encourage guild sniffing.  There are some people out there that are more dangerous without a weapon in their hands than with one, but in order to not instantly give themselves away in certain situations, like wandering around in the wastes, need to have a weapon in hand.  To discourage guild sniffing.

Uh, drop the weapon instead of sheathing it to avoid the delay, if you need to do it quickly?

Carrying around weapons your PC can't use well as a way to prevent "guild sniffing" is not something I think should be taken into account when trying to balance out a combat engine.

[Mudder]

I'm not liking the draw lag. I think its a little to long. I clocked it with my hg and it took me 10 seconds a piece to get both of my weapons drawn, so that would be a total of 20 seconds before I had both weapons drawn.

[Hymwen]

Yeah, I like the draw delay but when I heard how long it took for even a human with average agility, I felt sorry for the half-giants. Maybe there should be a max to how long it can take to prevent unrealistic situations.

[jhunter]

From what I've been hearing it is unrealistically long for all concerned.

[Hymwen]

Not for people with high agility.

[Mudder]

Not for people with high agility.

Seriously though, how freaking slow and clumsy do you have to be to take 20 seconds to draw something? I know hg's are freaking slow, but dang. It just seems a bit extreme to be that long.

[spawnloser]

I haven't seen anything unrealistic with delays on the draw command.

...and I'm playing a HG.

[Mudder]

I haven't seen anything unrealistic with delays on the draw command.

...and I'm playing a HG.

I have used a stopwatch to time the delay between each draw. So, I dunno.

[Cyrian20]

So I used it for the first time today with a ba agi human and the delay still wasn't that long. Big half giants and the such should focus on wielding just one weapon anyways and going "GRUK SMASH!!!!"

Anyways I think it is a little long on low agi characters, but if your one of those people you may want to think about if your low agi character should really be using two weapons.

[Cegar]

Why is it based only on agility? It should be based more on weapon skill than agility. And really, it takes less than a second for anyone with any weapon training to draw a weapon. Seems silly and unrealistic to me.

[Agent_137]

Yeah, I like the draw delay but when I heard how long it took for even a human with average agility, I felt sorry for the half-giants. Maybe there should be a max to how long it can take to prevent unrealistic situations.

I'm not quite sure why this was put in.

Playability? No.
Realism? Not really.
Balance? Since when are we concerned about balance?


In anycase, i disapprove of a 10 second draw time on a half-giant on the grounds of absurdity. Stop and count to ten . . . . . . . . . . absurd. Either fix it with weapon skill reducing the delay, or with a max draw time.

[Cyrian20]

Yeah, I like the draw delay but when I heard how long it took for even a human with average agility, I felt sorry for the half-giants. Maybe there should be a max to how long it can take to prevent unrealistic situations.

I'm not quite sure why this was put in.

Playability? No.
Realism? Not really.
Balance? Since when are we concerned about balance?


In anycase, i disapprove of a 10 second draw time on a half-giant on the grounds of absurdity. Stop and count to ten . . . . . . . . . . absurd. Either fix it with weapon skill reducing the delay, or with a max draw time.

I think a slightly lower delay is alright. The current way though, sort of forces big lumbering characters to use one weapon like it sould be*, less ninja half giants and more "GRUK SMASH WITH HUGE LOG"

That said I think logs should be bludgeon weapons. I am serious on that, you do that and I will play a half giant that uses a giant baobab log to smash stuff... and a log crafted with a mandible should be the half giant version of a board with a nail in it.

*remember the delay comes after you draw, not before hand. So if it really is ten seconds of lag, it only takes ten seconds to draw two weapons not twenty (sort of like the snail climbs 5 feet and falls three question when you were in the third grade)

[Mudder]

Yeah, I like the draw delay but when I heard how long it took for even a human with average agility, I felt sorry for the half-giants. Maybe there should be a max to how long it can take to prevent unrealistic situations.

I'm not quite sure why this was put in.

Playability? No.
Realism? Not really.
Balance? Since when are we concerned about balance?


In anycase, i disapprove of a 10 second draw time on a half-giant on the grounds of absurdity. Stop and count to ten . . . . . . . . . . absurd. Either fix it with weapon skill reducing the delay, or with a max draw time.

I think a slightly lower delay is alright. This way though, sort of forces big lumbering characters to use one weapon like it would be, less ninja half giants and more "GRUK SMASH WITH HUGE LOG"

That said I think logs should be bludgeon weapons. I am serious on that, you do that and I will play a half giant that uses a giant baobab log to smash stuff.

Yeah, but half-giants are so slow already, you really need that extra attack a round. Half-giants get walked around on with number of attacks during a round of attacks. Which is alright.

[Cyrian20]

Yeah, but half-giants are so slow already, you really need that extra attack a round. Half-giants get walked around on with number of attacks during a round of attacks. Which is alright.

Hmmm I can't help but agree with you there, I have seen half giants owned by newb assassins because of the number of attacks they get.

[Mudder]

Yeah, but half-giants are so slow already, you really need that extra attack a round. Half-giants get walked around on with number of attacks during a round of attacks. Which is alright.

Hmmm I can't help but agree with you there, I have seen half giants owned by newb assassins because of the number of attacks they get.

Yup, which is why I will do whatever it means to get just that little bit extra. That extra attack, which may not be a whole lot compared to the other guys, but coming from a half-giant, it can turn the tides of the fight your way rather quickly.

[Mudder]

I wouldnt mind the draw lag if it was lowered just a tad. I mean, a half-giant could get pawned fairly quickly before he could manage to get his weps drawn.

[Cyrian20]

I wouldnt mind the draw lag if it was lowered just a tad. I mean, a half-giant could get pawned fairly quickly before he could manage to get his weps drawn.

I just thought of something to address your idea: We need to take into account how it would pretty much ignore the lag for d elves if we shortened it. Also with reeling if your giant gets out one weapon and hits, he may find himself with the time needed to get that second one out. (which I still stand by the idea big lumbering brutes shouldn't always be dual wielder ninjas)

Just something to bounce ideas off of.

[Mudder]

I wouldnt mind the draw lag if it was lowered just a tad. I mean, a half-giant could get pawned fairly quickly before he could manage to get his weps drawn.

I just thought of something to address your idea: We need to take into account how it would pretty much ignore the lag for d elves if we shortened it. Also with reeling if your giant gets out one weapon and hits, he may find himself with the time needed to get that second one out. (which I still stand by the idea big lumbering brutes shouldn't always be dual wielder ninjas)

Just something to bounce ideas off of.

Hrm, good point. Maybe we should just keep it like it is, the daze would give a hg plenty of time. It would only be 10 seconds to get your weapons drawn, but after that second weapon drawn, there would still be another 10 seconds or so before you could input another command, correct?

[Cyrian20]

I wouldnt mind the draw lag if it was lowered just a tad. I mean, a half-giant could get pawned fairly quickly before he could manage to get his weps drawn.

I just thought of something to address your idea: We need to take into account how it would pretty much ignore the lag for d elves if we shortened it. Also with reeling if your giant gets out one weapon and hits, he may find himself with the time needed to get that second one out. (which I still stand by the idea big lumbering brutes shouldn't always be dual wielder ninjas)

Just something to bounce ideas off of.

Hrm, good point. Maybe we should just keep it like it is, the daze would give a hg plenty of time. It would only be 10 seconds to get your weapons drawn, but after that second weapon drawn, there would still be another 10 seconds or so before you could input another command, correct?

Yep (i think) good point, still a hg with two weapons equals daze heaven. I don't mind waiting ten seconds before I show you what a HG with spiky armor can do when he slams into you.

[Mudder]

I wouldnt mind the draw lag if it was lowered just a tad. I mean, a half-giant could get pawned fairly quickly before he could manage to get his weps drawn.

I just thought of something to address your idea: We need to take into account how it would pretty much ignore the lag for d elves if we shortened it. Also with reeling if your giant gets out one weapon and hits, he may find himself with the time needed to get that second one out. (which I still stand by the idea big lumbering brutes shouldn't always be dual wielder ninjas)

Just something to bounce ideas off of.

Hrm, good point. Maybe we should just keep it like it is, the daze would give a hg plenty of time. It would only be 10 seconds to get your weapons drawn, but after that second weapon drawn, there would still be another 10 seconds or so before you could input another command, correct?

Yep (i think) good point, still a hg with two weapons equals daze heaven. I don't mind waiting ten seconds before I show you what a HG with spiky armor can do when he slams into you.

Yep (i think) good point, hehe. I guess waiting another ten seconds before you can put in another command is alright. I mean, you do have both weapons in hand and defending yourself, so its not like you are completely vunerable.

[Cyrian20]

Yep (i think) good point, hehe. I guess waiting another ten seconds before you can put in another command is alright. I mean, you do have both weapons in hand and defending yourself, so its not like you are completely vunerable.

Plus with everything else, voice your concerns and someone will look into it and tweak it. I would say if your currently playing a HG and it is just ruining your playability log and send it in to the mud account. Giving your opinions for the other players to work with on the board helps also.

[X-D]

I cannot figure out the point to having it at all.

No, really, as has already been stated, its not for realism or playability, and definitly gives no balance.

I logged in, then after a brief bit of testing (my pc has VERY high agi for his race) with weapons sheathed back, hung from belt and in draw sheaths. I then logged off and got out a bunch of my weapons IRL.
Strapped on a sabre and a dagger on belt, Well, the sabre has its own belt which I strapped on then tied on the daggers sheath. Strapped on the rather impressive battle axe, back holstered. Then attached all the hidden stilletos and knives. And stood in my living room looking silly to my wife as I drew weapons the sheathed them.

Now, all the hidden weapons are either throwing types or stealthy types, IE no guards or anything else to snag or get tangled.

In no case did drawing a weapon take more then 2 seconds, The battle axe is actually one of the fastest to draw unless you miss the lashing, but even if you miss an extra pull just breaks the lashing (supposed to be that way). In almost every case it took longer to sheath the weapon then to draw it.

So, Unrealistic unbalancing and adding nothing to playability...somebody mind letting us know what the rational is behind this worthless bit of code?

(edit)
Alright, I came up with one reason on my own.... and thats just to give a person a chance if somebody does the draw;kill...but if thats the case the lag should be even across the board, so, thats not the reasoning.

Also, I'd like to add, other then thinking it was a waste of time, this bit of code does not actually bother me, I don't think it helps or hurts playability but is a simple annoyance that I get to shake my head at several times per playing session.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I then logged off and got out a bunch of my weapons IRL.
Strapped on a sabre and a dagger on belt, Well, the sabre has its own belt which I strapped on then tied on the daggers sheath. Strapped on the rather impressive battle axe, back holstered. Then attached all the hidden stilletos and knives.

We'd love to see a web link to a pic of you helping contribute in this manner!

So, Unrealistic unbalancing and adding nothing to playability...somebody mind letting us know what the rational is behind this worthless bit of code?

1) Gives people a chance to respond to a draw and attack scenario
2) Gives more of a purpose to sleight of hand draws from sheathes
3) Allows you to do cool shit like disarm a person who just drew a weapon, and then punch them in the face for a few seconds of hollywood brawl!

hahahaha

[Lizzie]

I'm not sure why this new code is a problem for anyone. If you don't like the delay, you can just forego the nice echo you get with the draw command and set up a mini-macro/alias:

wdraw (for weapon draw and wield)

rem dagger
wield dagger

hdraw (for weapon draw and hold)
rem longknife
hold longknife

Voila - no delay, problem solved. The only thing you don't get out of it is the echo you get when you use the draw command, which I presonally like and will continue to use even with the delay.

[Angela Christine]

Voila - no delay, problem solved. The only thing you don't get out of it is the echo you get when you use the draw command, which I presonally like and will continue to use even with the delay.

I think using macros this way to avoid a coded delay might be considered misuse, because it gives you an unfair advantage over non-macroed people.

[Cyrian20]

Voila - no delay, problem solved. The only thing you don't get out of it is the echo you get when you use the draw command, which I presonally like and will continue to use even with the delay.

I think using macros this way to avoid a coded delay might be considered misuse, because it gives you an unfair advantage over non-macroed people.

Yeah that is the type of thing when after you do it,

Code Select Expand


Halaster the uber leet sorc/psion of doom has arrived from the up

Magick swirls around Halaster as he utters an incantation

Halaster casts "mon un imm rek nub" room

*beep*


[Dalmeth]

Uhh... you people are strange.   There really is nothing wrong with that alias.  It's no worse than walking around with your weapons in your inventory and having an alias to equip them, aside from the extra spam.

If the staff didn't want people doing that, they would added delays to normal wielding.

[Cyrian20]

Uhh... you people are strange.   There really is nothing wrong with that alias.  It's no worse than walking around with your weapons in your inventory and having an alias to equip them, aside from the extra spam.

If the staff didn't want people doing that, they would added delays to normal wielding.

Give it a moment

[rufus]

Dual-wield drawing shouldn't take anymore delay than a normal, single draw.
Think about it, you're wearing a belt with two longknives situated in an easy-to-get position, you use both of your hands to draw at the same time.
Should be pretty simple, right?

Maybe draw delay should be based more on the weight of the weapon than agility.

[Angela Christine]

It's no worse than walking around with your weapons in your inventory and having an alias to equip them,

I think that would be bad too, if the purpose for doing it was to avoid a coded delay.


I can't think of a reason why a person would do that though, other than by accident.  Walking around with your sword tucked under your arm sounds dangerous!  :twisted:  More importantly, for most people, stuff in your inventory is even easier to steal than stuff on your belt.  If you make a habit of carrying your sword in your inventory, then you should plan on buying new swords on a regular basis.

[jhunter]

Overall, I'm really unsatisfied and unhappy with the direction combat is taking codewise. If it continues in this direction, as much as I hate to say it, I will be moving away from Armageddon. This isn't some sort of threat or anything like that (and I'm sure plenty of you would do a dance or something if I did), I just don't like the direction the combat code is going in. It seems to be heading in the direction from being a simple thing, to becoming clunky, slow, and cumbersome. I find myself disliking the combat system more and more.

[spawnloser]

It seems to be heading in the direction from being a simple thing, to becoming clunky, slow, and cumbersome. I find myself disliking the combat system more and more.

I think it's becoming more dynamic and interesting with so many more possibilities.  Also, if you don't like the combat system, find a role that doesn't involve high-exposure to it.

[Eternal]

Maybe draw delay should be based more on the weight of the weapon than agility.

Now -that- I like, especially when you consider daggers.  It should be one smooth motion, perhaps a dual wield draw command could be implemented 'dtwo' so to speak... and modifiers would be agility, weight of weapons, and dual wield skill (I -think- everyone gets that one.)

Edit:  I just thought of a funny name for the command... 'drall'

[najdorf]

i think a -before- attacking delay and an attacking message given to room would be better then this code change, but still it's not a big deal.

[Agent_137]

It seems to be heading in the direction from being a simple thing, to becoming clunky, slow, and cumbersome. I find myself disliking the combat system more and more.

I think it's becoming more dynamic and interesting with so many more possibilities.  Also, if you don't like the combat system, find a role that doesn't involve high-exposure to it.

when you make a combat system dymanic and interesting, coded, OOCly known tactics begin to have an advantage.

For instance, before bash and disarm, warriors learned weapons faster and had higher caps. It was simple. If a warrior with x training time attacked a ranger with x training time in toe-to-toe combat, the warrior won as his real skill was higher, just as would be the case if warrior x attacked a warrior with training time of y (where y is < x).

Now, that's still the same case, as warriors still learn faster. But if a warrior with x time goes against warrior y, and the y warrior has trained up disarm, it's likely that Y will win.

So, by adding more STUFF to the combat system, more knowledge of what to do, how to train, and how to act -codedly- is required to be successful against others of similar skill levels.

Which, in my opinion, is a good and bad thing, depending on one's taste.

So, spawn, jhunter, you're both . . . wrong! HAH. SUCK MY BALLS, ENGEL.

[Lizzie]

So if it turns out that making an alias for "rem blade wield blade" is against the rules, just type it out. I mean sheesh it takes less time to type both commands than you have to wait for a delay, so why dwell on the alias idea? Unless you want typing out "rem blade wield blade" to become against the rules too and require "draw" to be implemented as the -only- way to get the blade in your hand? I've seen plenty of people make aliases and macros for lots of things, from wielding weapons to "dismount/rent kank/open pack/put ticket pack/close pack" and I haven't heard anyone complain about those things, so why would this one be such a big deal? Aliasing renting a kank, putting the ticket in your pack, and closing your pack prevents the would-be kank-ticket-thief from stealing grabbing your ticket and running off with it.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is, unless you want to make all "potential RP-preventing aliases" against the rules. And I think the staff -and- players have more interesting things to do with their time than to monitor every single PC to check if they're using any possible alias that might some day prevent a potentially interesting moment of RP.

L. Stanson

[Cyrian20]

So if it turns out that making an alias for "rem blade wield blade" is against the rules, just type it out. I mean sheesh it takes less time to type both commands than you have to wait for a delay, so why dwell on the alias idea? Unless you want typing out "rem blade wield blade" to become against the rules too and require "draw" to be implemented as the -only- way to get the blade in your hand? I've seen plenty of people make aliases and macros for lots of things, from wielding weapons to "dismount/rent kank/open pack/put ticket pack/close pack" and I haven't heard anyone complain about those things, so why would this one be such a big deal? Aliasing renting a kank, putting the ticket in your pack, and closing your pack prevents the would-be kank-ticket-thief from stealing grabbing your ticket and running off with it.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is, unless you want to make all "potential RP-preventing aliases" against the rules. And I think the staff -and- players have more interesting things to do with their time than to monitor every single PC to check if they're using any possible alias that might some day prevent a potentially interesting moment of RP.

L. Stanson

Because your trying to get around the code. Years back you could subdue a person and then throw them through a guarded entrance and nothing happened. That was just working around the code and was unfair. The delay to draw is to prevent

Code Select Expand


Sit at bar
talk (tapping dried poo from the side of his boots with ~staff) Morning guys, so what is the plan for our day off

Some elf says, "Shut up you annoying shitcloak"

draw sword,!,kill elf

The unarmed elf reels none stop and dies YAY!


Yes it is a nice thought but it is pure twink, now you draw a weapon and either defend or virtually approach, there is no draw, kill. Using commands to get around that is twinkish and how you end up only being allowed to play a merchant... with no crafting skills

[Majikal]

The draw delay is no problem, it gives a delay after which prevents draw sword, draw sword, kill bob from happening instantly. The delay effects you afterwards, so drawing your weapon(s) in defense doesn't effect you joining in the combat. As for the complaints about HG's not being able to draw weapons and defend themselves and bash and disarm instantly if attacked, it makes for realism in my opinion. While getting stabbed I doubt you'd draw your weapon(s) flawlessly and ninja-disarm your opponent. Now if you're surprised attacked it represents that surprise in delay of time.

[jstorrie]

Derailment! I would like to see weapon draw lag affected by weapon skill so that my fifty-day warriors could pull some leet iaijutsu shit.

[Lizzie]

Well it looks like a couple of IMMs agree with a couple of players that using an alias for this is abuse. So - just type it out. I still don't get what the big deal is. You can keep a small blade, realistically, in a pack instead of in a sheath, and alias "open pack/get blade/close pack/wield blade" and there's no delay for that at all, and there's no code anyone's trying to circumvent for it either. Bigger weapons probably would look pretty stupid coming out of a backpack, so people can always just type out the appropriate commands to get it from their sheath. Unless "rem sword" is now against the rules too?

Like I said, I just use draw and don't care about the delay. I like the echo that the command provides

L. Stanson

[Cyrian20]

Well it looks like a couple of IMMs agree with a couple of players that using an alias for this is abuse. So - just type it out. I still don't get what the big deal is. You can keep a small blade, realistically, in a pack instead of in a sheath, and alias "open pack/get blade/close pack/wield blade" and there's no delay for that at all, and there's no code anyone's trying to circumvent for it either. Bigger weapons probably would look pretty stupid coming out of a backpack, so people can always just type out the appropriate commands to get it from their sheath. Unless "rem sword" is now against the rules too?

Like I said, I just use draw and don't care about the delay. I like the echo that the command provides

L. Stanson

Still what they are saying is it is being used to get around the code. The imms could add a delay to equiping an item but that would cause a lot of trouble. You bring up a good point though, what if you just happen to have a sword in your inventory? Should the delay instead just be added when you equip a weapon (i.e. enter armed status) instead?

If so please allow no delay to emoting during it, as since people can't do anything else, they can at least emote.

[Lizzie]

Still what they are saying is it is being used to get around the code. The imms could add a delay to equiping an item but that would cause a lot of trouble. You bring up a good point though, what if you just happen to have a sword in your inventory? Should the delay instead just be added when you equip a weapon (i.e. enter armed status) instead?

If so please allow no delay to emoting during it, as since people can't do anything else, they can at least emote.

What I'm saying, is that the code exists for something that amounts to nothing more than an RP tool. Sheaths are not necessary for a character to own, contain, or operate a weapon. The sheath, therefore, is just a prop. And anything you do -with- that sheath, is fluff, from a purely code standpoint. So people who want to use sheaths, and use them with the "draw" code that comes with it, have to endure a delay that people who choose not to use a sheath, or have no need for a sheath, won't have to endure. I personally think that's silly, to "punish" (and I use that term very loosely) people for using an RP prop.

Edited to add I also think it's silly to make a big deal about it either way, because the delay isn't a deal-breaker for combat anway. It's just a second (in my experience so far), and if my character -would- be in trouble over a second, then no amount of quick typing or getting around the code or aliasing is going to change that.

L. Stanson

[jhunter]

It seems to be heading in the direction from being a simple thing, to becoming clunky, slow, and cumbersome. I find myself disliking the combat system more and more.

I think it's becoming more dynamic and interesting with so many more possibilities.  Also, if you don't like the combat system, find a role that doesn't involve high-exposure to it.

Unfortunately, combat-based roles -were- my favorite roles. The direction the combat system is going is completely ruining it for me. It seems to me that those who like slow (almost chess-like) combat stuff are being catered to and those of us who liked it the way it was are being ignored. Herding us out of the game completely, or into non-combat roles. Yay! -More- tavernsitting, whoopee!  

Either that, or I suppose I can just stick to magickers and annoy the crap out of people more. I had been staying away from them for the most part because of people's complaining and my love of combat-based pcs. I suppose I can replace that with magickers for action and excitement.

[Rhyden]

I haven't seen anything unrealistic with delays on the draw command.

...and I'm playing a HG.

^ What spawnlost said.

Maybe draw delay should be based more on the weight of the weapon than agility.

I read the thread and noticed rufus beat me to it. I think this idea would make a -whole- lot more sense. That, or a mix between weight of the weapon and agi with the agi factor significantly less in the overall draw delay.

[Morgenes]

The direction the combat system is going is completely ruining it for me. It seems to me that those who like slow (almost chess-like) combat stuff are being catered to and those of us who liked it the way it was are being ignored.

It's interesting to hear the flow of arguments on the changes that have been made.  In another thread the complaints were that now combat is too fast because you get hit so often, and now because there's a 1-2 second delay per weapon (ignoring half-giants, which I'll admit was an oversight) for drawing weapons does not a chess match make.

[path]

It's a difficult balance, especially when there are such different expectations and concepts of the ideal situation.

[jhunter]

The direction the combat system is going is completely ruining it for me. It seems to me that those who like slow (almost chess-like) combat stuff are being catered to and those of us who liked it the way it was are being ignored.

It's interesting to hear the flow of arguments on the changes that have been made.  In another thread the complaints were that now combat is too fast because you get hit so often, and now because there's a 1-2 second delay per weapon (ignoring half-giants, which I'll admit was an oversight) for drawing weapons does not a chess match make.

The direction it is going. It isn't there yet, but it's well on it's way to becoming that. And it sucks ass.

[Agent_137]

MINDBENDER!!!!

[jhunter]

Ssshhh.... *slaps Agent_137 upside the head*

You don't have to be a mindbender to see what's happening. I said the same think when the stamina drain that primarily nerfs warriors was added...and look at the changes now, it seems I was correct afterall. It would be nice to see something added to the combat system that wasn't negative for a change.

[Agent_137]

Like what, bullet time?

[jhunter]

Anything really, anything but the addition of more difficulty, drudgery and frustration.

[Agent_137]

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Incognito]

While this is by no means an attempt at derailment, I'd like to address the issue of using aliases to avoid the coded delay on the "draw" command - in response to the post in the Ask the Staff forum.

It's been stated that by using an alias like:
wdraw = rem weapon; wield weapon
one can avoid the delay now associated with the draw comand.

As is the case with all things Arm, the Staff's response is: If someone does this deliberately to avoid the delay from the draw command, its not kosher.

At the same time I understand that draw delay is based on agility.

I just happened to see a "Texan Quick-Draw" contest on Nat Geo channel the other day, and I was surprised to see that the highest ranked cowboys weren't lean n mean and didn't seem agile at all! Some of them were bordering on the obese and couldnt even walk at a decent pace. But when it came to "doing their thing" they sure could pull out their six-shooters and fire, before your eyes could even register it!

My point being - I dont think agility should be associated with draw delay, as a blanket. If we're gonna implement draw delay, atleast make it a skill, so that people with low agility too, can improve it over time, and perhaps even surpass those with high agility, if they practise enough.

[jmordetsky]

I just happened to see a "Texan Quick-Draw" contest on Nat Geo channel the other day, and I was surprised to see that the highest ranked cowboys weren't lean n mean and didn't seem agile at all! Some of them were bordering on the obese and couldnt even walk at a decent pace. But when it came to "doing their thing" they sure could pull out their six-shooters and fire, before your eyes could even register it!

My point being - I dont think agility should be associated with draw delay, as a blanket. If we're gonna implement draw delay, atleast make it a skill, so that people with low agility too, can improve it over time, and perhaps even surpass those with high agility, if they practise enough.

That sounds reasonable.

[Seeker]

I just happened to see a "Texan Quick-Draw" contest on Nat Geo channel the other day, and I was surprised to see that the highest ranked cowboys weren't lean n mean and didn't seem agile at all! Some of them were bordering on the obese and couldnt even walk at a decent pace. But when it came to "doing their thing" they sure could pull out their six-shooters and fire, before your eyes could even register it!

My point being - I dont think agility should be associated with draw delay, as a blanket. If we're gonna implement draw delay, atleast make it a skill, so that people with low agility too, can improve it over time, and perhaps even surpass those with high agility, if they practise enough.

That sounds reasonable.

Warriors, Assassins?  Just -not- rangers.  No more perqs for rangers, please.

Seeker

[Mudder]

I just happened to see a "Texan Quick-Draw" contest on Nat Geo channel the other day, and I was surprised to see that the highest ranked cowboys weren't lean n mean and didn't seem agile at all! Some of them were bordering on the obese and couldnt even walk at a decent pace. But when it came to "doing their thing" they sure could pull out their six-shooters and fire, before your eyes could even register it!

My point being - I dont think agility should be associated with draw delay, as a blanket. If we're gonna implement draw delay, atleast make it a skill, so that people with low agility too, can improve it over time, and perhaps even surpass those with high agility, if they practise enough.

That sounds reasonable.

Warriors, Assassins?  Just -not- rangers.  No more perqs for rangers, please.

Seeker

I second that!

[Beux]

Bullet time!

[Zalanthan]

Like what, bullet time?

I am very new, so I can't say I have any experience with the former system, but I have played several RPI MUDs before and I certainly don't see anything wrong with this draw delay.  And perhaps "bullet time" is a useful way of thinking about it:

I am surprised at how many seem to have a problem with the realism of this delay.  The concept of time on any RPI MUD is a tricky one: crossing vast distances (outdoor rooms) takes, technically, less than one IC minute, while exchanging simple greetings to a passing stranger on the road can oddly take upwards of an IC hour.  Thus, it takes a bit of imagination to presume that you didn't really spend that little/much time doing said activity.  This is a good thing; in the above examples, it allows me to travel to my destination at an appropriate speed (imagine the boredom of a realistic time delay when walking up, say, an incline in a sandstorm with a full pack) while also allowing me to squeeze in a little RP with someone even if my character is in a hurry (I, for one, get frustrated as a newbie when, after hours alone, I see a fellow PC walk right by me because he's speedwalking somewhere).

Which leads me to the draw delay.  No, the delay is not "realistic", but drawing your weapons and attacking someone before they have a chance to respond is extremely poor (and selfish) RP.  Sure, your character may have a reason, but how do you know the person you are attacking wasn't already eyeing you suspiciously with hand on pommel, waiting for you to foolishly charge in?  The delay adds an important chance for the victim to respond in an IC manner: if they want to RP a stunned noble or feeble old man and remain unarmed, its their choice, but they should at least have some say in the attack.

So if, after all of this, you still have a hang-up about the draw delay, I suggest you think of it as an opportunistic version of Bullet Time.  So next time you are waiting during the delay, make some Hollywood magick and compose an emote, but don't say the combat system is broken.  If you are looking for perfect realism, turn off your computer.

[spawnloser]

jhunter, how were you right when stamina drain nerfed warriors?  It doesn't only nerf warriors.  This doesn't nerf anyone any different than any others.

[jhunter]

jhunter, how were you right when stamina drain nerfed warriors?  It doesn't only nerf warriors.  This doesn't nerf anyone any different than any others.

Yes, it does. You might not agree with me, but it does. I'm tired of arguing this and noone else understanding me at all. The others that had -any- sort of stamina drain were a) Either added to only one skill that is only used once per combat realistically. b) added to a skill that has nothing to do with melee combat AND was given a benefit to balance it out


What was done to warriors is similar to having added stamina drain (with NO benefit) to archery except -only- for those of the ranger guild. Because they're the best at it so naturally they should get tired while shooting and those who are worse at it shouldn't.  :roll:

[X-D]

We'd love to see a web link to a pic of you helping contribute in this manner!

I'm sure you would, but happily the web cam was not on and so only my wife got to laugh at me.

As to people arguing that these additions have not nerfed warriors, I feel that you are not thinking it through.

They most certainly have. Sure, you can get kick through a subclass, big deal. Only warriors get bash and disarm, so, they are penalized for using combat skills, hence, nerfed. The stam drain for archery, still silly IMO. Delay after draw, also silly and pointless. These changes along with a "bug" Fix that IMO should not have been fixed are helping to push me away from the game as well.

Fixed a bug that caused blah blah blah. Big deal, there are times when you should say Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And that defense "bug" had been in place for a long time, if nothing else it allowed time for emotes. I don't emote in combat any more, I can't, no time, no time in sparring for fear of killing my opponent and no time in combat outside the ring for obvious reasons.

This is sad, I was a real fan of combat emotes, even earned a point of karma at one time for them, and now, out the window....put the damm bug back in and call it a FEATURE.