re: hard hits can 'daze' you

[Twilight]

The flee should happen before my attacks.  I want to flee, I don't want to attack it, it is already kicking my ass:

An amazingly badass creature has arrived from the north.

Lots and lots of Hps>  You think:
    "Shit."

Lots and lots of Hps >  s

An amazingly badass creature pinches your body, inflicting a grievous wound.
You reel from the blow.

Still more hps than most people >  flee

An amazingly badass creature brutally pinches you on your arm.
You reel from the blow.
An amazingly badass creature's kick at you is absorbed by your piece of armor.

Damn, not going to regen anymore hps >  flee

An amazingly badass creature swiftly dodges your blow of doom.
An amazingly badass creature swiftly dodges your blow of awesomeness.

Damn, not going to regen anymore hps>  
Damn, not going to regen anymore hps >  flee
flee

An amazingly badass creature pinches your body, inflicting a grievous wound.
You reel from the blow.
An amazingly badass creature attempts to knock a cool weapon from your hands, but you deftly avoid it.

Eek! hps >  
Eek! hps >  You're fighting for your life!

Eek! hps >  You attempt to flee.


Actual events.  Names changed to protect the guilty.

[jstorrie]

Commands (like kill, kick, or bash) carry lag. Taking swings in combat is automatic and does not carry lag. Don't worry, flailing around at an amazing badass creature of doom isn't going to make you flee any later!

[Morgenes]

If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?  We're not asking if you think it should be removed.  It won't be.  However, what about it is so unfair?  Is the lag before you can get a command in too long?  Is missing your next attack too harsh a punishment?

My current thoughts involve cutting back the length of the command lag a good bit, just so it's there but it's not overwhelming.

[Cyrian20]

If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?  We're not asking if you think it should be removed.  It won't be.  However, what about it is so unfair?  Is the lag before you can get a command in too long?  Is missing your next attack too harsh a punishment?

My current thoughts involve cutting back the length of the command lag a good bit, just so it's there but it's not overwhelming.

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice, or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

[Morgenes]

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice,

Why should your character be able to draw a weapon but nothing else for those few seconds while you were sent reeling?  Explain that to me without using the term 'playability'.

or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

Send me a log, with date & timestamps, showing you getting whomped on by a creature that was more than one room away from you that you typed 'flee' as soon as you saw them and they still hurt you, and I'll look at it.

[Cyrian20]

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice,

Why should your character be able to draw a weapon but nothing else for those few seconds while you were sent reeling?  Explain that to me without using the term 'playability'.

or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

Send me a log, with date & timestamps, showing you getting whomped on by a creature that was more than one room away from you that you typed 'flee' as soon as you saw them and they still hurt you, and I'll look at it.

The issue is that if you're unarmed you're getting hit hard, and if you can't pull out a weapon you're going to be dazed for a while. I think the free hard hit is reward enough. Especially if someone just.

Code Select Expand


alias own kill
draw sword
own shitcloak


If you are in public, thus unarmed yourself, they can get that evil hit off and I assume a higher dmg hit increases the daze % and thus if you can't draw a weapon you could get daze locked since in my experiences I often lose tons of hp to people I could normally beat when I am unarmed.

As for the mek thing, it is an example of us dial-up victim problems, I know it is something that doesn't –need- to be addressed but it is nice. I love that npcs lag but they can still catch you and it would be nice if you could flee. Maybe give a stackable flag with a timer that lowers the reeling chance, I think that would allow all the fun evilness people want without sending everyone into 'daze lock'

[to the players that will shoot this down]

Again these are just ideas and I would love for the players to bounce their thoughts off of them to improve. Please an "I DON'T LIKE THIS" post is unhelpful; if you understand my minor issues with it and have better ideas please please post. I am sort of hoping we can make use of a -discussion- board.

[/to the players that will shoot this down]

[jmordetsky]

So I was torn up.

The I read:

The wastes are dangerous. Fighting a mekillot is like fighting a goddamned tyrannosaurus, man! Didn't you find it a bit odd that any sufficiently well-trained dwarf could pwn a t-rex with a couple bone clubs?

In another thread. This sums it up for me.

Dazed = Yes.

However....Maybe...(Morg, you out there?) We take into account the weight of the attacker vs the defender and relatives str, rather then just the damage done?

That would let large creatures daze you, but not let well trained fighters who are still small and weak do so?

Not sure. I say this because I saw a tiny elven boy daze a carru recently. But I think I've come around on this and all in all I like it.

I also like dazing people. It's cool.

[jstorrie]

The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high. So yeah, a really strong half-giant could whomp you down 80%, daze you too much to let you draw a weapon, and then finish you off while you were reeling. The chance of Jim Zero-Day Warrior doing with his ninja half-elf is significantly lower - especially if the city watch wanders in and starts dazing him.

[Morgenes]

The issue is that if you're unarmed you're getting hit hard, and if you can't pull out a weapon you're going to be dazed for a while. I think the free hard hit is reward enough. Especially if someone just.

Code Select Expand


alias own kill
draw sword
own shitcloak


I don't see how this alias helps at all.  I can see putting a minor command delay on draw so that you have to wait to kill someone after drawing, but if you're already in a fight you'd be ok.  At least then you'd have a second or two warning that shit is ready to throw down.

As for the mek thing, it is an example of us dial-up victim problems, I know it is something that doesn't –need- to be addressed but it is nice. I love that npcs lag but they can still catch you and it would be nice if you could flee. Maybe give a stackable flag with a timer that lowers the reeling chance, I think that would allow all the fun evilness people want without sending everyone into 'daze lock'

If anything I'd add an increased chance of daze if you're already dazed because, well it makes sense.  However, the way daze is currently implemented, it's already there.  If you just took a hard enough hit to daze you, your hit points/stun points are lower and so the threshold for getting dazed again is lower.

I'm sorry, but you're not going to win me over with arguments that would make it possible for a newbie to survive against a mekillot without friends to rescue him or luck at getting the flee off.

[Morgenes]

The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high.

Very good point, and a truth that should be emphasized.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't like what I've seen of it, to begin with. As someone else stated, we already have bash for that. But to answer Morgenes' question...

I think that only extra ordinarily hard hits should reel someone. Like, a hit that probably should have killed you to begin with. I don't like seeing a solid slash send someone reeling. I think the way it is set up at current makes it too easy to get dazed, and ends with people just having to sit with their hands in their pockets while their PC reels over and over again.

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be a great start. First of all, playability. There, I said it, because it IS a factor in the combat code, but more so... Rooms are not people standing shoulder to shoulder and face to face. Someone can (and NPCs do) walk into a room and begin attacking someone without approaching them, looking at them, saying anything, or anything of that nature. They warp up to them and slash them. Realistically, if someone marched into the tavern with blades drawn, b-lining for my PC, my PC would have his weapons drawn before he was insta-reeled and thereafter flattened due to being unarmed.

There should be a recovery period, also. If you are reeled, you should not get re-reeled until you've recovered and maybe had a round to do something. Yes, because of playability. I guess that's really the only reason, but I don't think that it is an invalid one.

Size should be an issue. Half-giants should make people reel. Mekillots should make people reel. A human slashing a human should have a very small chance of dazing someone, in my opinion, regardless of how hard they hit. It would set half-giants and such apart from normal creatures as far as the combat code is concerned, which is something most everyone wants. And it would stop insta-gibbings from happening as frequently.

All in all, I think it is a good idea, but it needs some tweaking. I've only seen it in action a few times, but it frustrated the hell out of me, and I wasn't even involved in the fight. I don't think that is how things are meant to be, even if it is just for the sake of playability.

[Cyrian20]

I'm sorry, but you're not going to win me over with arguments that would make it possible for a newbie to survive against a mekillot without friends to rescue him or luck at getting the flee off.

I promise I am not trying to 'win' you over, I am just adding my two cents as to ways it could make the game less enjoyable to some (I think as we have seen from the popularity of this post)

As for my example I made a mistake of adding the alias thing in there for fun, I should have assumed people would focus on that. So that said, I was basically pointing out if you attack a person who is unarmed you basically have a huge advantage as it is, if they can be dazed and not able to draw their weapon and each hit increased daze % then basically attacking an unarmed person can guarantee a kill.

Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on. By all means make valid points and (if you look at previous topics I have been involved in) I will change my opinion when new facts are presented. I have never claimed my way right, I just point out why I think my way is right and if those points are not true I –hope- someone corrects me.


So since the point of my post was missed, I should have explained it better I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?. That is the reason I would like to be able to still draw a weapon while reeling.

[Morgenes]

I think that only extra ordinarily hard hits should reel someone. Like, a hit that probably should have killed you to begin with. I don't like seeing a solid slash send someone reeling. I think the way it is set up at current makes it too easy to get dazed, and ends with people just having to sit with their hands in their pockets while their PC reels over and over again.

What do you consider an extra ordinarily hard hit?  How many or what percentage of your health or stun?  20%? 50%? 80%?
If this only happened when you lost half your health or 80% of your health, it would be pointless cause more than likely the next hit would kill you if someone could do that much damage.

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be a great start. First of all, playability. There, I said it, because it IS a factor in the combat code, but more so... Rooms are not people standing shoulder to shoulder and face to face. Someone can (and NPCs do) walk into a room and begin attacking someone without approaching them, looking at them, saying anything, or anything of that nature. They warp up to them and slash them. Realistically, if someone marched into the tavern with blades drawn, b-lining for my PC, my PC would have his weapons drawn before he was insta-reeled and thereafter flattened due to being unarmed.

Everyone has a command delay for walking into a room, this should be enough time to either flee or ass -v to see if they're armed, or just draw your weapons if your character would be that twitchy.

There should be a recovery period, also. If you are reeled, you should not get re-reeled until you've recovered and maybe had a round to do something. Yes, because of playability. I guess that's really the only reason, but I don't think that it is an invalid one.

This is already true, if you're still in a dazed state, the penalties do not stack.  You'll get the echo, but you won't end up in a longer wait.  However if you've lost your attack already, another daze will make you loose your next one.

Size should be an issue. Half-giants should make people reel. Mekillots should make people reel. A human slashing a human should have a very small chance of dazing someone, in my opinion, regardless of how hard they hit. It would set half-giants and such apart from normal creatures as far as the combat code is concerned, which is something most everyone wants. And it would stop insta-gibbings from happening as frequently.

I think this is partially true.  Size is a factor, larger things with higher strengths are going to daze you more easily.  I disagree that it should be a 'very small chance' of a humanoid dazing you just because they're a humanoid.  I guarantee you if I hit you upside the head with a club, you will be dazed.  If you have empirical evidence to the contrary, feel free to mail me a log showing hps/stun points.

All in all, I think it is a good idea, but it needs some tweaking. I've only seen it in action a few times, but it frustrated the hell out of me, and I wasn't even involved in the fight. I don't think that is how things are meant to be, even if it is just for the sake of playability.

How can you speak with such authority if you've only seen it a few times and it wasn't even you that was affected by it?  Unless I'm reading your paragraph wrong.  Nor do I see how being dazed could somehow 'frustrate the hell out of you' if you weren't even the one involved in the fight.  Please provide real examples with real explanations as to what is frustrating about it.

From what I'm reading the main concern is over the length of the daze period.  So barring any further insights from you guys, I'm gonna reduce the command wait from daze a bit.  It's possible I'll overcompensate and need to tweak it again, but we'll see.

The chance of getting dazed is not going to change.

[daedroug]

The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high.

Very good point, and a truth that should be emphasized.

the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

as for ideas to fix it:
drawing would help and it realistic depending on how you view being dazed, I basicly see it as being hit hard enough that your too off balance to get any decent swing in. You may not have the leverage to get any force behind a blow but you don't need to be have leverage to whip out a dagger.

Also, flee would be good maybe not so much that you can still flee while dazed but you shouldn't be able to be dazed any more after your attempting to run, if you fail then go ahead and get dazed again and you can type flee to try to get out after your donr being dazed the second time.

[Morgenes]

Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on.

I really find it hard to see how you can speak constructively on something unless you have experienced it first hand.  

So since the point of my post was missed, I should have explained it better I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?. That is the reason I would like to be able to still draw a weapon while reeling.

We have done tests with a strong humanoid running around virtual Allanak with a weapon attacking unarmed characters, and they were all able to flee or draw there weapons without much issue.  Unless you have a log to back up this claim 'I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?.'  Or is it really a question?  If it's a question, the answer is no, you won't be totally screwed.  And all this is before we lower the command lag and before I add a command lag to draw.

[Larrath]

If I could change one thing about Daze, I would make it possible for dazed characters to flee.  They would have a significant penalty, but would still be able to make a run for it.

If the above is out of the question, I'd like to see a possibility for dazed people to go into an All Defense mode, ie going into fetal position and guarding their heads.  They wouldn't be able to attack, but also wouldn't die so quickly after being dazed once.

[Morgenes]

If I could change one thing about Daze, I would make it possible for dazed characters to flee.  They would have a significant penalty, but would still be able to make a run for it.

I'll respond to this and Daedroug's post above with the same answer.  Being dazed is like what you see in the movies when the character just took a huge hit and is just basically sitting there unable to react.  You can't flee, you can't draw a weapon, you can't swing.  Feel lucky that we don't modify your defense any while you're dazed.

If the above is out of the question, I'd like to see a possibility for dazed people to go into an All Defense mode, ie going into fetal position and guarding their heads.  They wouldn't be able to attack, but also wouldn't die so quickly after being dazed once.

Fetal position guarding your head is a good way to die, not live.  Again, my answer to the previous explains my intentions behind the daze code.  You are unable to react that last hit hurt so bad.  That's what this code represents.

[Cyrian20]

Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on.

I really find it hard to see how you can speak constructively on something unless you have experienced it first hand.  

I think you missed some of it, let me quote the entire thing for you.

Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on. By all means make valid points and (if you look at previous topics I have been involved in) I will change my opinion when new facts are presented. I have never claimed my way right, I just point out why I think my way is right and if those points are not true I –hope- someone corrects me.

I again did not say I was right or wrong, but was pointing out my observations so they could be -discussed- and hopefully I would be calmly corrected if I was wrong. Here you almost did that perfectly by saying what you said. I now know that unarmed people aren't getting owned and you're lowering the lag.

:wink:  Discussion works wonders  :wink:

:took this part out as people will focus on it instead of the post:

[Morgenes]

the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

Send me all the logs you have of the intial swing of combat showing how many hitpoints and stunpoints you lost in that first swing.  If you loose more than 20% of your max hitpoints or stun in one swing (not both for dual wielding) in 50% of those logs I'd be very surprised.  I'd wager that you didn't loose 20% of hp or stun in more than 5% of those logs.

[daedroug]

the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

Send me all the logs you have of the intial swing of combat showing how many hitpoints and stunpoints you lost in that first swing.  If you loose more than 20% of your max hitpoints or stun in one swing (not both for dual wielding) in 50% of those logs I'd be very surprised.  I'd wager that you didn't loose 20% of hp or stun in more than 5% of those logs.

thats the point though even with 5% chance and 60 players running around every day getting into scraps tons of time each. Even if 5 out of 100 combats end because they reeled in the first hit and there fore ended in a quick deah it would be happening to at least a couple people a day which to loose a couple PCs a day is not somthing i would like to see on top of the already gay to gay PC death

[edited to add] Also drawing, even if your sitting there on the ground you still aughta whip out a weapon pretty quick especially a dagger. I know i could just sitting down and the only the only reson that you would be too stunned to get one out is if you take a blow to the head, otherwise you've just been knocked to the floor.

[bloodfromstone]

What do you consider an extra ordinarily hard hit? How many or what percentage of your health or stun? 20%? 50%? 80%?
If this only happened when you lost half your health or 80% of your health, it would be pointless cause more than likely the next hit would kill you if someone could do that much damage.

I consider an extraordinarily hard hit one that takes a high level of weapon skill even versus an unarmed opponent. I would say it should definitely be closer to 50%, because it is not pointless. Someone can flee or magick themselves away in an instant, if they're quick at typing.

Everyone has a command delay for walking into a room, this should be enough time to either flee or ass -v to see if they're armed, or just draw your weapons if your character would be that twitchy.

A lot of people carry weapons when they, realistically and ICly, should not, because hunters forget to sheath. Realistically, someone busting into a tavern with a scimitar in either hand would be a rare occurance, met with an outburst of reactions. Instead, we emote glancing down at the weapons in their hands as a reminder to the player, not the character, that they're armed. Maybe if we all started reacting properly, people would take more care as to whether or not they were armed, but, at current, that's not the way things are.

This is already true, if you're still in a dazed state, the penalties do not stack. You'll get the echo, but you won't end up in a longer wait. However if you've lost your attack already, another daze will make you loose your next one.

That's good to know.

I think this is partially true. Size is a factor, larger things with higher strengths are going to daze you more easily. I disagree that it should be a 'very small chance' of a humanoid dazing you just because they're a humanoid. I guarantee you if I hit you upside the head with a club, you will be dazed. If you have empirical evidence to the contrary, feel free to mail me a log showing hps/stun points.

I also guarantee you that if someone slashes you hard on the neck with a two-handed sword, you will die, but that is not the way things are IG. As much as I know it's not the response you're looking for, I firmly believe that playability takes priority. It may just be difference of opinions at that point, but that is why I, personally, feel that the chance should be very small.

How can you speak with such authority if you've only seen it a few times and it wasn't even you that was affected by it? Unless I'm reading your paragraph wrong. Nor do I see how being dazed could somehow 'frustrate the hell out of you' if you weren't even the one involved in the fight. Please provide real examples with real explanations as to what is frustrating about it.

It is frustrating for me to watch another player die with little to no chance for input on their part. Even if I don't know the player OOCly or the PC ICly, it is still frustrating for me to see someone get splattered.
As a real example, a generic human guard jumps a new PC. A fight starts, and within a round or two, the PC is dazed. A round later, the PC is dazed again. A round later, the PC is dead.
For me, this is frustrating because, regardless of whether or not I was in the fight, I still sat and watched someone die helplessly. Sure, they probably had a few seconds to realize that they were wanted and run, or flee when the soldier attacked them, but I think all save the most hardened mudding veterans freeze up for a second when they find themselves in an unexpected fight. Granted, this is our own problem, but I still think that it is oversimplifying the situation to say "Well, they should have just checked score to see that they were wanted, assessed the soldier to see that he was armed, and fled."


Again, I understand that my experience with this code is limited, and I also understand that the decision is the staff's to make, but this is my impression of it thus far. Mostly, I feel like my post was regarded as being ill thought out and nonsensical, so I want Morgenes to know that I wasn't just vomiting up words when I posted it. I have a lot of respect for the changes that have been made recently, and I try to keep that respect when posting about my own issues with the code. So... Maybe this post was pointless as far as debate, but it's just my two cents. Take it as you will.

[Twilight]

In my last log, you will note I didn't type kill.  It was something that had a faster movement rate than my character, thus the kill command was on its side.

I had guess I assumed that the dazed length would be equivalent to how long it would take to get your next hit in.  Which is why I was surprised that I got the attack in, but wasn't able to flee.  If I am attacking, it does not make any sense that I am dazed.  I am done with just standing there, as has been explained as what the daze represents.

If I had one thing I would like to see changed, I would like to see a max chance of 50% of being dazed, no matter what.  Having played a number of magickers, 20% of your hps is not all that much when you are sitting there without any weapons in your hands.  And, no, I never log without a specific purpose, so none of those to give you.  But this did just wimp lots of magickers vs. lots of NPCs out there.  And completely whack out one aspect of magicking that is already quite dangerous, because of this.  Not especially worried about vs. other players.

Now, I realize am not going to get what I wanted, as Morgenes already said the % isn't going to change.  But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  High probability if they don't flee instantly?  Sure.  High probability if they flee instantly?  No.  Sure, its realistic they'd die, but it completely sucks from a playability perspective.

Anyways, I hope it gets tweaked.  I've only been dazed maybe 10 times, but I have seen literally hundreds of dazes (although not in ideal test conditions) so far and its realistic, but unbalancing combat playability.

[X-D]

First, I'm going to state that I hate daze currently. REALLY hate it. Poorly implimented at best.

This does not mean that I always will, that depends on how things end up.

Alright changes.

First, A very hard to the hand and your dazed? Come on, I saw a guy lose half his hand in a punch press and when the die came up he reached in, grabbed his four fingers and part of his hand, pressed his stub tight against his side and booked ass to the front.

I've worked most my life in roofing and other construction, I've seen many brutal accidents and injuries. And NEVER EVER have I seen or heard of an injury NOT involving the central nervous system  or heart/lungs that caused a person to forget how to perform a simple action.

Second. It does not take into account race, Raged muls don't get daze, big deal. What about muls not raged, they still do and just as easy as anybody else, yet some races are supposed to be tougher.

Third, It does not take into account class or experiance. A 10 IC year warrior with 40days played SHOULD be able to shrug off more damage then a 10day 1ic year warrior. This is something you learn to do IRL if you fight/box, play alot of football etc etc.


And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

[Forty Winks]

And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

There's a flaw in that I believe. I may be wrong, but being dazed just means your commands are put on hold, you're character will still be defending and attacking(?) as usual. So saying a warrior winning by getting a daze hit on another warrior of equal skill won't happen unless the warrior was disarmed first, dazed, then failed the rest of his defense skills so he couldn't flee. What you noticed during a sparring match was likely a match between partners of unequal skill.

[bardbard#4]

But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  

For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations.  ESPECIALLY if you have karma.  If you can't...too bad, so sad.