re: hard hits can 'daze' you

[Cyrian20]

But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  

For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations.  ESPECIALLY if you have karma.  If you can't...too bad, so sad.

Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

[Sokotra]

And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

There's a flaw in that I believe. I may be wrong, but being dazed just means your commands are put on hold, you're character will still be defending and attacking(?) as usual. So saying a warrior winning by getting a daze hit on another warrior of equal skill won't happen unless the warrior was disarmed first, dazed, then failed the rest of his defense skills so he couldn't flee. What you noticed during a sparring match was likely a match between partners of unequal skill.

That may be the case, but what X-D said may be happening much of the time as well.  From what I've seen, there is a good chance that a daze will either cause your attack rate to be nil or much less and it seemingly has a drastic effect on your defenses as well.  So, without having read the entire thread, I will have to say at this point in time there needs to be some major tweaking with the new code changes.  

Basically it looks to me like the negative effects that daze cause should be tremendously lowered to allow for the fun and playability that was previously the case.  I understand that combat should be something that most people do not want to get involved with in real life, but this is fantasy.  Struggle and combat are why I play the game and it is fun to have fights breaking out all the time on the streets, in bars, or whatever.  

I don't care if it seems cheezy or the elitist RP'ers are whining because someone walked in and starting stabbing their silk-clad fancypants in the head.  At least they had a chance to escape with a missing ear or eyeball or nose or something rather than just being dazed, double dazed, triple dazed and dead.  

Anyway... I'm sure the changes will continue, and it's good to have a more dangerous world, but I'd hate to see the fun, playability, and hilarity of the game be drowned out.  Again, I don't have time to read through the entire thread or to extensively study the changes in the game, so coders/staff please don't take this wrong.  I appreciate the hard work and constant changes toward making the game better... so good luck with this braxat-of-a-task.    I'm sure the work isn't over.

[bardbard#4]

You are ALL blowing a bagpipe's worth of hot air.

Clearly, entering into combat with last week's mindset will keep most of the naysayers frustrated.  So change your mindset.  Change the way you think about entering into combat, especially the situations that you choose to enter combat.  Change the way you gauge your abilities against other races and suspected classes.

I am exceptionally happy that the staff put this change in.  One of my largest complaints about the game has been it's lack of change and evolution, both in terms of the world and the code.  This is going to shake things up and force all of us to think about the game differently.  Deal with it, or go somewhere else.

[Cyrian20]

You are ALL blowing a bagpipe's worth of hot air.

Clearly, entering into combat with last week's mindset will keep most of the naysayers frustrated.  So change your mindset.  Change the way you think about entering into combat, especially the situations that you choose to enter combat.  Change the way you gauge your abilities against other races and suspected classes.

I am exceptionally happy that the staff put this change in.  One of my largest complaints about the game has been it's lack of change and evolution, both in terms of the world and the code.  This is going to shake things up and force all of us to think about the game differently.  Deal with it, or go somewhere else.

YES! God forbid we discuss this like mature adults on a -discussion- board, I think instead you should take attitudes like that somewhere else and tell us why you like it. Maybe we haven't realized something you have, again I have said it three times today and I will again for those of you that can't scroll up to read. It's a discussion board, no one is wrong or right, lets discuss it and keep "Like it or go" remarks back in the third grade with the rest of an eight year old mentality where they belong.

[Yang]

Twinks are the biggest cry babies. I'm pretty happy about the changes to, myself, even though it doesn't really 'advantage' my current character or my previous playing style. I'm glad this --== BUG ==-- has been fixed and can no longer be --== EXPLOITED ==--.

[bardbard#4]

Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

Excellent university-level writing, right there.  Award this man a PhD!

[Fnord]

The real deadliness of daze comes into play when combined with bash.

If you're down from a bash, and the big baddy is getting the bonus for hitting a prone opponent (more damage vs. less defense), the dazes can come every hit before you can get up and flee. Every extra round you're down from bash is potentially deadly.

I'd remove the daze effect from prone opponents, or very much reduce the delay.

[Cyrian20]

Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

Excellent university-level writing, right there.  Award this man a PhD!

Okay if you want more I will give it to you. I think your post that a person who doesn't
know enough about the world (read: newbies) should die a lot easier is beyond childish. It
is a loser's opinion because losers want people to stay below them however they can.
Also it added nothing to the conversation so I didn't really feel like spending real effort
for what I assumed was an eight year old and I am sorry. In the future I will try my best
not to judge you just by your posts and just push hard to reply like you're an actual adult
okay?

[bardbard#4]

Thank you.  I would ask nothing less from such an enlightened individual, such as yourself.

Now, as to your point about newbies, I disagree.  This does not make the curve more difficult.  It just changes the parameters of the curve.  You can no longer approach combat the way most of us used to, but new players were never exposed to that approach in the first place.  Therefore, how can you say that this automatically handicaps them?  We are all subject to the code, from the first-hour newbie to the 10000 hour veteran.  Furthermore, the code hampers and aids npcs as well, so the playing field in that regard is mostly even.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that new players have an advantage since they will develop under the new code changes from the get-go.  Their growing approach to harnessing the code will be inherently more potent than veterans', since they won't have to shake of the shackles of the old paradigms.

[Cyrian20]

Thank you.  I would ask nothing less from such an enlightened individual, such as yourself.

Now, as to your point about newbies, I disagree.  This does not make the curve more difficult.  It just changes the parameters of the curve.  You can no longer approach combat the way most of us used to, but new players were never exposed to that approach in the first place.  Therefore, how can you say that this automatically handicaps them?  We are all subject to the code, from the first-hour newbie to the 10000 hour veteran.  Furthermore, the code hampers and aids npcs as well, so the playing field in that regard is mostly even.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that new players have an advantage since they will develop under the new code changes from the get-go.  Their growing approach to harnessing the code will be inherently more potent than veterans', since they won't have to shake of the shackles of the old paradigms.

When in doubt insult right, so here. I was not speaking about how the code effects newbies.

But it goes down to this: Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.

For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations. ESPECIALLY if you have karma. If you can't...too bad, so sad.

I was speaking of this comment right here. Also as a side note it was your choice to feel insulted at a reply that was, in the first post, no way directed at you.

[flurry]

If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?

I don't know if it needs fixing, but if it does, the only thing that comes to mind is to make it a little harder to get dazed, i.e. raise the threshold some.

[bardbard#4]

What -is- your point then?  I'm having difficulty locating it.

Postscript - You didn't insult me.  I simply wished to make a point that you accused me of acting like an eight-year-old when you had to resort to a bastardization of the English language to get your own point across.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocritical

[Spoon]

Continuing from the post above, I'm not sure if somebody has said it yet, but I could be arsed to read through all eight pages:

I'd assume it's already in place but if not, getting hit on the head or body should daze you more than other locations.

[jstorrie]

Being hit on the body and head is already taken into account, as those hits do more hp/stun damage, which in turns raises the daze chance.

Being a mul is already taken into account, as muls have more hit points, so x amount of hp/stun is a smaller fraction of their current hp/stun, which in turn lowers the daze chance.

If you jump someone who is unarmed, I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have a sizeable advantage. However, suggesting that whoever dazes first will score a guaranteed kill is a bit disingenuous. If you score a massive hit on an unarmed PC, yes, the odds are tilted in your favour if they stay to fight it out and if no one comes to their aid, which is not particularly unbalanced or unplayable.

If someone couldn't kill you three hits in the first place, I don't think you have much to worry about getting daze-locked and pwnt by zero-day twink assassins. Half-giant assassins, maybe.

I will also reiterate that the player-characters will quickly adjust to the defense change, as it'll be easier for their defense skills to improve if they fail more often. This does tilt things in favour of people who can regularly practice (Bynners, clanned guards, soldiers, etc.) which is not unreasonable.

I feel that the daze-lock doom scenarios are hyperbole and people should hold back a bit before they declare that Armageddon has been poopified by a subtle increase in the brutality of combat. People fighting for their lives should be prepared for a bit of brutality, really.

[Hymwen]

Having seen the daze code in action and done a bit of testing, I must admit that I don't like it much. Just thought I'd say. It can and possibly will be changed, adjusted and tweaked, but all in all, I don't see what good it does and what it adds other than a huge luck factor suddenly being dumped into the combat code.

Suggested changes:

Make it so that you can't be dazed twice in a row without a brief pause in-between for you to flee.

Allow for drawing weapons while dazed, especially if the above suggestion won't be considered.

Change the fact that once you're down a good chunk of health, any hit above 'lightly' will likely daze you.

I still don't know enough about it to say that these suggestions are an absolute requirment, but that is what a few days of testing and observing made me think.

[Seeker]

I bet it already does take into account hit location.  I'm inclined to believe this was very well thought out beforehand.

Perhaps (if it is not already included) a modifier for the Endurance stat (+/-) beyond the effect it already has on your hit/stun points?


Seeker
(who is dazing the PISS out of tregils and vestrics)

[bardbard#4]

Hymwen, why are you so obsessed that this is luck?  It very much has to do with skill.  The higher your skill, the harder you hit.  The harder you hit, the more damage you do.  The more damage you inflict, the greater the chance of landing a dazing blow.

[Gunnerblaster]

Suggested changes:

Make it so that you can't be dazed twice in a row without a brief pause in-between for you to flee.

Allow for drawing weapons while dazed, especially if the above suggestion won't be considered.

Change the fact that once you're down a good chunk of health, any hit above 'lightly' will likely daze you.

Man... This new upgrade [though realistic] bites because My character got hit once and then the enemy kept hitting straight attacks that made my character continue to reel. I second that option to where you can't be dazed by an attack more than twice in a row because I got jipped, because I was at full health [over 130] and I got hit once and I suddenly started reeling. Then, every blow after that made me reel.

-sigh-

I was so angry...

[Hymwen]

I don't know why you're using the word obsessed. As for luck, I was refering mostly to the oft-quoted situation where you walk around in the desert and Bigass_NPC_194 walks in from a coded blind angle and mashes you.

[Gunnerblaster]

I feel that the daze-lock doom scenarios are hyperbole and people should hold back a bit before they declare that Armageddon has been poopified by a subtle increase in the brutality of combat. People fighting for their lives should be prepared for a bit of brutality, really.

No offence but the game was pretty damned challenging to begin with, and, well... I'm not a very good imaginative person and I'm beginning to run out've characters to create... Considering their life expectancy...

[jstorrie]

No offence but the game was pretty damned challenging to begin with, and, well... I'm not a very good imaginative person and I'm beginning to run out've characters to create... Considering their life expectancy...

Maybe you ought to try playing characters with less dangerous lives. Join a clan, have your character act wisely, and you can survive essentially indefinitely in Zalanthas.

Characters who often take risks will eventually lose. It's the nature of risk-taking. But there are plenty of roles in Zalanthas that don't force your character to risk death every time you log in - and in fact, rational player-characters should gravitate to those roles for their own personal safety.

[bardbard#4]

I don't know why you're using the word obsessed. As for luck, I was refering mostly to the oft-quoted situation where you walk around in the desert and Bigass_NPC_194 walks in from a coded blind angle and mashes you.

I think in my past three or four years of playing, that situation has come up maybe five times.  Out of those five, I think only once did the incoming npc manage to hit me before I took off.  This is such an infrequent occurance.  It is also easily avoidable as you gain experience, and in my opinion, not grounds to modify or remove the daze code.

[Mudder]

I dont see what you guys are complaining about the lag. I seen someone get attacked by a certain type of strong race while the person was sitting down, unarmed and only got reeled a single time. The PC that got attacked how plenty of time to stand up and flee before he could get reeled again. So I dont know. I just think you guys are complaining because you cant insta-flee as quick as you used to. Of course it slows you down, but you still have PLENTY of time to react. *shrugs*

[Forty Winks]

Main detriment to the daze code: you can't instaflee.

Which means magickers who act like twinks with their spells, as well as magickers who have spells requiring a close proximity to work or quick cast to escape, will get messed up if they make a mistake. Personally, I think it'll drop the initial roleplay involved with mage vs. mage hunter/targets as people have mentioned earlier, but then again, has there really been much rp in such instances? On the other hand, it really messes up combat-oriented magickers. Yet, I think the daze code (with a few minor adjustments to certain areas) will do nicely, as long as unbalances are corrected.

[X-D]

First, Forty, Staff has already stated that while dazed you lose attacks, you do still defend, but from what I've seen, poorly.

Second, the two warriors in question started the game at the same time and same clan ETC and were, evenly matched.


Funny thing is, Daze code HEAVILY favors my current PC and I still hate it.