re: hard hits can 'daze' you

[a foreign presence]

I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to daze an opponent, but from what I've seen, it can in some circumstances be way too much. I would like to see the delay shortened because it currently seems to be about the same as bash, and I would like to see it not depend so much on the current hp of whoever is taking the hits. If you have a strong combat PC, attacking an unarmed opponent will almost definitely result in a lot of damage in the first round and if the victim has less than great endurance it's pretty easy from what I've seen to get them into a reel lock. If you're a human ranger with average strength, no, you might not daze people every other round. If you're a human warrior with extremely good or higher, from personal experience and what I've witnessed, it's really rare to do less than solid/very hard on an unarmed opponent, even without much combat training.

I would like to see combat outcome depend more on the reflexes, knowledge and actual skill as opposed to who got the attack on an unarmed person and got a lucky first round (or an average first round, with some PCs).

I dont see what you guys are complaining about the lag. I seen someone get attacked by a certain type of strong race while the person was sitting down, unarmed and only got reeled a single time. The PC that got attacked how plenty of time to stand up and flee before he could get reeled again. So I dont know. I just think you guys are complaining because you cant insta-flee as quick as you used to. Of course it slows you down, but you still have PLENTY of time to react. *shrugs*

As for who has seen what, things will differ - you've seen someone get attacked by someone else and not get dazed much, I have seen someone attacked by a human character and be dazed from the initial round and until they were dead. And it's easy to make assumptions as to why people complain, and throw out a degrading example. If we complain, it must be because we can no longer twink against you, right?

Edit to add:

And I don't think armor affects this enough. Wearing decent armor should add more than the often minimal damage reduction when it comes to preventing daze.

[Djarjak]

I just wanted to jump in here and perform a little bit of a redirect on this discussion.

I don't want to comment one way or another about whether I think daze happens too often, lasts too long, should still allow you to flee, or any of the other suggestions/complaints posed in this thread.

Rather, I wanted to talk a little bit about the potentials for this code so that, while folks are making complaints and suggestions about changing it, a broader view is apparent.

Let's suppose that you attack me, and I'm buff enough that I can deliver the virtual equivalent of a bitch-slap with my sword after you do so. You get dazed. I then have the opportunity to disengage and combat stops.

The potential then becomes that I can end combat, turn around, and ignore you like the puppy you are, and you can realize you nearly got your shit handed to you, and you can sit down.

Or I can turn to take down your buddy who tried to stab me in the back while you punked me out without suffering a penalty for multiple combatants...

While this emphasizes the decided discrepancy between those advanced in their combat skills and those who are more specifically novices, I think there's also a lot of valuable potential for this for arena games or other combat-oriented role play.

I'm just not sure that it's being used up to its potential yet. And that may be something to evaluate in scripts, AI, or other areas on our part. But, honestly, this is up to you guys, too.

[daedroug]

Honestly Djarjak that sounds awsome. And I would love it except for the fact that it's going to end up lowering the mortality rate of PCs, possibly drasticly. It's been in place for around 6 days now and I've read of at least six different PCs dieing from it when normaly they wouldn't have, Now i don't know what the statistics are on how many PCs die a day right now but that seems to be pretty drastic to be adding another PC per day dieing since it's inception and no doubt i not every one has posted about they're character dieing from it. Hell I almost died from it.
I still especially think that before a second daze can be applied it aught to let you at least attempt to flee. As well as draw weapons while dazed, the only thing that would really stop you from drawing a weapon while you've been knocked on your ass or just off balance or whatnot is a blow to the head.

[spawnloser]

I know where you're coming from, Djarjak.  Believe me, I do.  Still, slight criticism...with how fast combat goes past, getting out that 'disengage' before you continue to hand his ass to that green novice over there?  Maybe not so possible.

Is it possible to have an 'auto-disengage when opponent dazed' ...thingy?  Maybe something that you'd use the 'change' command for?

[Nusku]

don't know what the statistics are on how many PCs die a day right now

No significant change in the number of PCs dying from day to day. As people get used to the code, it will level off entirely, most likely. And the deaths we've been seeing are pretty much the same -kinds- of deaths, in the same places, to the same things as always. Quite literally nothing new under the sun. In related news from the Department of Slightly Exaggerated Statistics That Mock Your Pain, Team PC has, for the 378th week running, failed to even beat the spread against Team Sand Raptor.

[Gunnerblaster]

Maybe you ought to try playing characters with less dangerous lives.

My character hardly went out into the dunes, so his life was those of an indoor cat. Your saying that just because I go outside, once, I deserve to get run down by an 18-wheeler? If so, what's the point in even playing? I mean, don't get me wrong, the inside-city life is great an all but there's times when you NEED to go out and then you get owned. A certain critter that I was capable of easily handling suddenly 'pinched' my char's wrist and I was dazed? That doesn't make sense. Then, I was continously 'dazed' after that. You speak of it so lightly now but you'd be just as turked off if the same thing happened to you, ESPECIALLY if your char was at max at all stats, then one little 'wrist pinch' destroys months of game-play in less than 5 minutes.

[Djarjak]

Actually, having the "mercy on" attribute force an auto disengage when opponent becomes dazed is an idea I would like to see discussed further.

If the rate of combat is a concern for folks, maybe that is something that we should be discussing here, too.

Also, something that is less suited for the boards than for e-mail might be whether there are specific mobs or scripted special commands that are causing a problem moreso than others? Or, at what level of difference between combatants does this -really- become a problem?

Keep in mind that the staff plays the game, too. Many of us play it on the same terms that you do and we all face the same code. There's no special imm off switch for our PCs on these, either. Yes, the desert should have teeth, and mundane combat should be dangerous. But let's keep in mind here that there's a longer end game for a lot of the code changes that are put in, and make the assumption during posting that the people who volunteer their time to make the code changes aren't specifically in the business to screw over your personal PC when they make changes.

[Jherlen]

I'm divided on having "mercy" auto-disengage you from combat. Some people may want to beat their opponent unconcious, but not kill them, so they'll have mercy on - but to knock the guy out you may need to daze him a few times first. Another setting might work? You could have mercy "daze/kill/off", to reflect the relevant levels of when you stop beating someone down.

I wouldn't be opposed to slowing down the rate of combat, either - fights might take longer, but if you made the time between combat "rounds" about 50% longer, people would have more time to enter commands, spam flee, and... even emote.

A certain critter that I was capable of easily handling suddenly 'pinched' my char's wrist and I was dazed? That doesn't make sense. Then, I was continously 'dazed' after that. You speak of it so lightly now but you'd be just as turked off if the same thing happened to you, ESPECIALLY if your char was at max at all stats, then one little 'wrist pinch' destroys months of game-play in less than 5 minutes.

I'm thinking when the game says "pinches your wrist", what it means is "takes a giant freaking pincer and clamps down on your wrist, all but cutting off your hand". That may be enough pain to daze someone, yeah.

On the other hand, the suggestions I've seen about having daze only kick in if you're hit in certain places (body/head/neck?) and have armor reduce the chance of getting dazed both sound good.

[spawnloser]

I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'm thinking when the game says "pinches your wrist", what it means is "takes a giant freaking pincer and clamps down on your wrist, all but cutting off your hand". That may be enough pain to daze someone, yeah.

On the other hand, the suggestions I've seen about having daze only kick in if you're hit in certain places (body/head/neck?) and have armor reduce the chance of getting dazed both sound good.

Okay, a bit of exageration on my half but the attack was similar and it wasn't some deadly blow, like you mentioned. But getting pinched anywhere dazed me... Oh well... I can't really press the matter. Nothing I can do about it and complaining about dying won't get my char back so... I'm done putting my opinion in on ANY new code, even if it kills my char.

[Hot_Dancer]

I never liked how combat was totally one sided in Armageddon much and prefered the novice getting in some lucky hits being a worthwhile scare, especially if said newbie had a big fucking sword (tm).

The concept of two newbies with big fucking swords (tm) is always something I felt should be dangerous to even a veteran combatant.

While my pc being hit by stuff that never could touch him straight out of the Hall of Kings is definitely a surprise, it's not one I totally disagree with. It'll definitely change certain player group's hunting lifestyles to more realistic goals as well as veteran warriors not taunting groups of 2 just because they know they havn't fulfilled the bonuses for surrounding an opponent yet.

No more showing your uber skills against 8 cord long worms to impress the ladies.. or bending shelled half giants over your knee..

Hot Dancer

[Seeker]

I'm done putting my opinion in on ANY new code, even if it kills my char.

And that will show us.

Don't be so quick to want to take your ball and go home.  Some great things have come up in this discussion.  All resulting from a lack of consensual agreement.  It is the agitator in the washing machine that gets the clothes clean.

And, we don't know yet that PCs will never be able to acheive that former level of defense.  It might just take longer, but still be entirely reachable.


Seeker

[Gunnerblaster]

It is the agitator in the washing machine that gets the clothes clean.


Seeker

Er... So, what I'm hearing is that if I wash my computer in the washing machine, I'll get my char back?

>.<

[Slink]

I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

Nosar!  In fact, you actually hate the idea and just typoed your response.

There are plenty of times I've wanted to beat someone unconcious, but not actually kill them.  If your robbing someone, if your going to take someone to  be interrogated, if you just REALLY want to wail away on someone.  Do I care if they are just dazed?  Hell no, I want them in a pile on the floor.

What if you're really the man and daze someone on the very first hit?  My understanding based on previous posts is that the daze lag is shorter than the lag you get from typing "kill tuluki" - meaning if you daze someone initially and have mercy on, they would get the drop on you.

What if your a class that uses moves like backstab/sap?  Seems a bit odd that having mercy on would allow you to automagickally stop combat and allow yourself to re-backstab/sap shortly there after.

There is already a change target command for combat and I'm just not convinced the 1.5 seconds of "daze" that a person gets is going to be any real benefit to you - your going to hit his friend and he's going to assist right after that.  Do you really want that tradeoff?  A single round of "one on one" combat which then allows a second person to perform combat initiating moves like sap/backstab?

In my opinion, the way to resolve all of the problems with "daze" is to do the following:
1) Lower the percent chance to daze for moderate hits.
2) Give all players an unarmed combat skill (to fix magickers and players caught off gaurd).   Please note this is not the same as offense/defense - this would actually be you training without a weapon to become better at it, not just better at any type of combat.
3) Flee should work through daze if you are below 40% of your max hitpoints.  The trade off would be that you drop anything in your hands in your all out fight/flight panicked attempt to escape.
4) All new players who "point tuluk" should start off poisoned.

[jmordetsky]

I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

Nosar!  In fact, you actually hate the idea and just typoed your response.

There are plenty of times I've wanted to beat someone unconcious, but not actually kill them.  If your robbing someone, if your going to take someone to  be interrogated, if you just REALLY want to wail away on someone.  Do I care if they are just dazed?  Hell no, I want them in a pile on the floor.

Seconded. I don't usually kill PCs, but I do leave very often leave them stunned and naked in box somewhere. This would hamper that.

[naatok]

I can see this is a hot topic of debate here on the GDB, so the naughty monkey feels COMPELLED to drop his own feces onto the scene.

:twisted:

I don't mean to be preachy, but here's my take on this in a nut-shell:

1.  Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

This isn't just some esoteric statement by a spiritual leader.  It's just plain common sense.  If you make a living by violence, your life will statistically be a short one and you will most likely die by violence.

I think we can all agree that alot of professions in Zalanthas rely upon some form of violent activity.  Or at least subject the professional to chances that some form of violence will be present in their lives.

This is one reason why life in Zalanthas is nasty, brutish and short.  Those who engage in professions of violence should simply accept the consequences of their way of life.

2.  Nature selects the creatures most responsive to the environment for survival.  So, Zalanthan creatures are more robust than terrestrial ones.  Naturally.  The environment is alot harsher.  But this doesn't mean that less robust creatures are not born into the world.  It simply means they are less likely to reproduce and spread their less robust genes.

Those who are stronger, faster and hardier of body and mind tend to live while those who aren't suffer and die.

If you're not strong, you'd better be quick.  If you're not strong or quick, your body had better be able to withstand alot of damage and still recover.

If you don't have any strengths among these traits, then you'd better choose a life path that doesn't (or at least doesn't often) place you in harm's way.  Otherwise, you will die....and die very quickly.

3.  No matter how bad-ass you think you are....there's always someone or some thing out there more bad-ass than you.  Sooner or later, you are gonna cross paths with that other and chances are you -will- die.

4.  No matter how bad-ass you think you are...Fortuna is your greatest ally and your greatest enemy in one.  Sometimes the difference between survival and death in Zalanthas is simply SHEER LUCK.  Sorry, but it is true.  I've played characters whose physical traits, mental acquity and experience in life placed them VERY high in the ranks of bad-assdom.  Sorry, they died.  Either they weren't experienced enough to handle the situation they put themselves in, or they met someone or something more bad-ass, or they simply weren't lucky enough.  Sometimes all three.

Honestly, I think the 'dazed' code simply amplifies the fact that hardier, smarter, more learned members of a species will outlive the less hardy, smart and learned members and will be more likely to reproduce.  Seems to me that its implementation is an attempt by staff to add even more realism to the game, and I support it 100%, and again am in awe of the imagination and coding expertise of the Arm staff coders.

Potential pit-falls I see in this code:
1.  It will make it much less likely for individual, unskilled mages to live alone in the wilds.  Well, mages, sorcerers and other "outcasts" of society SHOULD be rare.  Most of them should die well before achieving any sort of expertise with their powers.

2.  Armed sentients will have the upper hand against unarmed ones when a fight begins.  Well...D'uh!  Of course!  It is up to you as the player to properly roleplay your character as you see fit within the bounds of personality and storyline realism.  Don't blame code for the death of your characters when that death is directly attributable to your own actions or inactions.  Whether that be based on realitic behavior or not.

I've lost MANY favored characters due to my own actions or inactions in game....some based directly upon the characters' personality and some because I wasn't paying attention as a player.  It sucks.  I sniffle.  I mope....I get over it and I make another character vowing to play the next one realistically and keep focused.  And if I can't keep focused on the game....to log out when it is appropriate to do so from an IC perspective.

Before you engage in ANY activity (violent or otherwise) with a character in Zalanthas, ask yourself some important questions:

1.  Is the action realistic?
2.  Is this action ICly necessary?
3.  Would my character VIEW it as such?
4.  Would my character, if given the time, consider the consequences?
5.  Would my character give a damn about the consequences?
6.  If something goes wrong, could my character extricate him/herself?
7.  Is my character SMART enough to even think about that in time...much-less care?
8.  Do I, as a player, have the time to deal with the consequences of my character's actions?  IE (Uh, I want to hunt another scrab to fulfill my character's daily quota for the boss, but I've only got 20 minutes before I gotta log out.  What should I do?)  My take?  Log out now, or find something else to do besides put your character in harm's way for the next 20 minutes...and bag that scrab another day.

Dazed code should be the LEAST of your concerns when choosing a path of violence for your character.  Gods, there must be hundreds of different ways to die in this game.  This code only makes it much more likely and realistically so...that you will have problems when fighting strong, powerful characters or creatures.  That's all, really.

Have fun with the wonderful new code!
:twisted:

[Sokotra]

For the overall fun and playability of the game, my vote is going toward backing off on reality just a little bit.  I've always loved the realism of Armageddon, but only because it was balanced with playability and enjoyment of what you were doing.  Nobody wants the game to be as realistic as real-life because then what would be the point of playing a fantasy game?

One of the major reasons that the staff and players have always used to back this point up is that the people of Zalanthas are exceptionally tough and have evolved beyond what might be realistic here on Earth.  Sure, being stabbed very hard or pinched on the arm by a giant insect might, in real-life, cause one to be stunned or dazed - but do we really want this happening in the game so often?  Maybe to a certain extent, and as I've said before - I know things are probably going to be tweaked or we will simply learn to live with the changes and I give many chewy granola bars to the staff for their hard work.

But to continue the 'discussion' (don't take this as bitching or whining) I'd just like to put in my two cents.  I think mainly hits to the head or perhaps to a small extent, hard hits to other areas, should cause a 'daze' or whatnot... but then again, isn't this why "stun" was put in the game?  Before the change, when you get stunned enough, you got dazed or knocked out for a while.  This just seems to be a little too much double-jeopardy going on.  Having said all that, I am still excited about the changes taking place toward making the combat system on Arm even more awesome...

[Bakha]

I've lost MANY favored characters due to my own actions or inactions in game....some based directly upon the characters' personality and some because I wasn't paying attention as a player.

Not to derail: but only if the players knew just how true this was. I think "naatok" has become slang on staff for losing a powerful, long-lived, and interesting PC in a bizarre and often careless fashion (no offense Naatok).

[Sanvean]

Re Naatok:

I still maintain it was a bad idea to try to jumpstart the geriatic dwarf having a heart attack by casting lightning on him.

But it sure makes for a good story.


And I apologize for derailing us further.

For what it's worth, there's a lot of testing happening on the staff side of things.  Nusku, for example, has been patiently setting up fights between two classes and recording the results to see if they're reasonable.

Feedback is useful, particularly feedback that is precise, detailed, and helps us figure out game balance issues.  Things like "this code sucks and I hate you all"...eh, not quite so helpful.

[Nusku]

Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

[Cyrian20]

Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

Those are rarer cases actually, as I often get 'dazed' in the ring and are always able to either sprawl back (since many people will shoot for a slam while your 'dazed') or shoot in (by the time you hit the ground your not dazed and a 'dazing' hit often takes a lot more out of your opponent so their sprawl isn't usually that clean)

Anyways just two cents, played around with the daze code today and the lowered daze time, I think, works very well. There will still be daze lock that kills you from max life to zero, but it will happen less often now which is a good enough fix until a more robust system can be coded.

[Forty Winks]

Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

Just watched the video, plus some.  :lol:

I think a good example of both hits that cause daze and those that I think shouldn't, IG, can be seen from a similar one from youtube.
Muay Thai

Watching that, you're able to see that solid blows to the body (knee/foot to arm/thigh) doesn't 'daze' the opponent as a solid hit to the head (you to notice those guys are wearing padded gloves...think of a bare fist or elbow to the temples). The current code though doesn't differentiate between a solid hit to the head or a solid hit to the hand except the amount of health lost and thus the daze length is the same.

If the daze code was to be made as realistic as possible (in a game world), I'd like to see a hit to the limbs be less to null in daze length than a solid 'daze' hit to the head, with solid hits to the body what it currently is in daze length.

[Cyrian20]

Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

Just watched the video, plus some.  :lol:

I think a good example of both hits that cause daze and those that I think shouldn't, IG, can be seen from a similar one from youtube.
Muay Thai

Watching that, you're able to see that solid blows to the body (knee/foot to arm/thigh) doesn't 'daze' the opponent as a solid hit to the head (you to notice those guys are wearing padded gloves...think of a bare fist or elbow to the temples). The current code though doesn't differentiate between a solid hit to the head or a solid hit to the hand except the amount of health lost and thus the daze length is the same.

If the daze code was to be made as realistic as possible (in a game world), I'd like to see a hit to the limbs be less to null in daze length than a solid 'daze' hit to the head, with solid hits to the body what it currently is in daze length.

Look up 'real' kyokushin fighting (not the style used in the U.S.A.) You will see guys delivering none stop bare-knuckle blows to the other's body as well as knees, elbow strikes, and amazing chudan mawashigeris (rib kicks).
A kyokushin fighter is trained to take these* without wearing any armor at all, if the average human (these aren't pro fighters) can do it so can a zalanthian. I will say it is already improving and if people continue to post ideas we are bound to get something that everyone can agree upon... except for the twinks and the people that keep claiming anyone that doesn't like it is a twink... which I shall now refer to as a twunk.

DOWN WITH TWINKS AND TWUNKS, YAY! TO GOOD OPINION SHARER..ERS!


*on a note actually being dazed or showing pain gives your opponent a half point, do it twice and you lose.

[naatok]

Sanvean Wrote:
Re Naatok:

I still maintain it was a bad idea to try to jumpstart the geriatic dwarf having a heart attack by casting lightning on him.

But it sure makes for a good story.

ROFLMAO

Gods!  Won't you please just let that DIE?!   :lol:

That was a mistake!
Besides, the funniest part was after lightning was cast to jump-start the poor old geezer.  I still laugh at the scene that rp planted in my head:

Clubbing the geriatric dwarf in the head repeatedly with his staff, the slim, hook-nosed man exclaims, in sirihish:
"Wake up, dammit!  Wake UP!!!"

Sorry.  heh heh.  I HAD to respond.
And I can't honestly say I'm sorry for derailing this thread further, although I will apologize.   :twisted:

[X-D]

I see some work has been done to daze.

Looks like it is coming along.

Least Now my PC is not getting dazed by a hard blow to the hand.