re: hard hits can 'daze' you

[Tisiphone]

Hmm...about this...

I love the idea of getting dazed as a possibility. That's wonderful But, to avoid instadeath situations of that sort, I have an idea.

This involves possibly finagleing the flee command. I understand that daze was added at least in part to avoid people simply running from everything (perhaps I should take a page from their collective books...) but there are, as have been pointed out, places where this leads to de facto deathtraps (enter mekillot, stage right), which doesn't seem really in spirit of the game. Yes, life is hard, but NPC deathtraps != roleplaying.

So my suggestion is this: At the beginning of combat (say, only until after the first, or MAYBE second hit) flee will still work, unaffected by daze. I'd justify this by saying that massive loads of adrenaline are coursing through the attackee's body, and adrenaline is a hormone which is primarily useful for fight or flight. Thus, after the first hit the adrenaline is able to help someone ignore such massive damage and drag themselves out of danger, but not after the body has settled on the 'fight' option (thus restricting 'flee' to the very beginning, or subjecting it to daze effects).

I know it might sound a bit sketchy, but there are true-life stories of such things happening, and it seems like a good, plausible excuse for playability.

[bardbard#4]

Both are situations which might be realistic but that I can't see bringing anything good to the game.

Good is a point of view, and to many, including myself, realism is a good thing to bring to the game.  Your example is quite isolated however, as it happens in the desert.  This is just one more thing that will make people think twice about traveling alone.  And that is a good thing, in my humble opinion.

[Morgenes]

NPCs are affected by lag when moving into the room with you.  You should have more than enough time should a Mekillot 'enter stage right'.

The daze idea was discussed and hashed over by the staff and we felt it was a good change to make.  Yes, it will make things harsher, especially against monstrous creatures.  Yes, it'll make it so that it's better to have friends with you.

As bardbard #4 said, good is a relative term.  And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

[Tlaloc]

I'd like to point out that I really do like this whole thing, but it creates some instances where you just aren't allowed to screw up, and that concerns me.

Honestly, I think this is as it should be. In some places in this game, if you screw up, you die. This is 100% how Armageddon is designed.

Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.

It is a central tenent to Armageddon that life is generally ugly, brutish, and short. If you make a mistake on Zalanthas, be prepared for it to be your last.

Well, I don't really see how the change in combat lag effects things like bahamets and mekillots, which are the primary suspects in a death-by-daze case.

Some monsters aren't meant to be fought without a lot of preparation and advance planning. In particular, these monsters have always been something considered highly lethal and powerful, so I'm not certain this is any huge change.

[Morgenes]

And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

Anyone notice that mekillot could be read as 'me kill lot'?

[Tlaloc]

And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

Anyone notice that mekillot could be read as 'me kill lot'?

That's actually how I always remember how to spell the durned things!

[Angela Christine]

Well, I don't really see how the change in combat lag effects things like bahamets and mekillots, which are the primary suspects in a death-by-daze case.

It should make people more cautious when visiting territory where gigantic creatures lair, which makes sense.  Most people quickly learn where it is that you find mekillots, bahamets and silt horrors, and you should be very alert and very cautious when going into those areas.  

There is a common, moderately profitable activity that takes place in an area known for mekillot activity, and since it doesn't require elite skills it is popular way for newbie/loner characters to make money.  Currently when I go out there with a new character I am usually more concerned about running into scrabs than running into mekilliots, because scrabs are common and move quickly.  I'd like to be more worried about the mekillots.  Mekillots should be poop your pants terrifying.





There is a problem in that monsters sometimes follow people out of their traditional territories, and then you can run into them where you quite reasonably don't expect to find them.  I've seen a mekillot or silt horror quite close to Allanak's gates a few times over the years. Being surprised by something that huge sucks. But that is sort of a separate issue of NPC AI and scripts and stuff.  NPCs should give up or go home if they get too far from their home territory.  


It would be great if there were some way to spot gigantic creatures diagonally, at least in completely flat terrain on a clear day.  You really shouldn't often accidentally move into a room next to mekillot or bahamet, you ought to be able to see it coming.  But that is a seperate issue too.


Thumbs up to big scary things.

[Dalmeth]

NPCs are affected by lag when moving into the room with you.  You should have more than enough time should a Mekillot 'enter stage right'.

When I say "screw up," I mean things like accidentally enter "r" instead of "e."  Maybe you were so busy looking out for the big nasty that you didn't see the entrance message right away.

The fact is, most people avoid these things as best they can, and they still get attacked once every so often, mostly because they can't see diagonally.

Movement lag is generally about three seconds, give or take depending on the creature.  Command lag is anywhere from half to a fourth of a second.  Then there's reaction time.  These things add up, and occasionally you get attacked by a creature you were trying to give a wide berth.

EDIT: By "command lag," I mean the time between a command is executed and the time you get a response.  Armageddon tends to be a bit slow, but on second thought, it's more like an eighth of a second.  It just feels like forever, sometimes.

[jmordetsky]

I like the idea that you would get dazed and mauled by large animals.

I haven't run into one of these things since the command lag went in. I do remember the days of yore where I would go from 120 to 30 hp in a matter of seconds when a silt horror slid into my room. But, those days should be done. You should have a few seconds to split, unless you're being attacked by something stealthy and don't see it enter. I'm that concerned with getting "jumped" by a Mek and dying to daze.

I am still a little concerned by the scenario in Hymwen's post. The idea of repeatedly beeing dazed, over and over and over, especially by a human, or an elf rather then a mek I think would be a horrible experience.  But, I say: We should all give this a week or so of play before we come to conclusions and see how often something like this is acutally happening.

Edit: Remember there is a % chance for daze when you get hit hard. So, factor in how often someone (even a skilled someone) gets a viscious shot on you, and couple that with what ever the % chance for a daze is and then keep in mind that if the staff see's people getting dazed every 3rd hit in combat and tons of daze-inflicted deaths, that they are rational people and will lower the % chance for a daze.

Take a deep breath, it will be okay.

[Forty Winks]

I like it...though one question to the staff. Would backstabbing and sap also cause a daze affect if the damage is large enough? Think someone mentioned combat skills causing daze, bs and sap are considered combat skills correct? Would it be realistic to have backstab and sap cause a larger length of daze, them being specifically designed to daze or shock vital areas?

Would seriously beef up assassins/thugs if so.  :shock:

In any case, think it's a great addition.

[Forty Winks]

Of being dazed repeatitively, I personally think it should be possible, as long as the situation warrants it. If you think about it in RL perspective, if you get clubbed in the head hard five times straight, you wouldn't have much of a mind to tell yourself to run away between each huge blow. Have it so you get a quarter of your arm chewed off by a mekillot within five seconds and I don't think fleeing would be an easy task.

[jstorrie]

If dazing is based on hp and stun damage, backstab and sap naturally will daze very well, as they deal huge amounts of hp or stun damage on the 'first strike.' This does, definitely, benefit backstabbers and sappers.

[Armaddict]

Helps to make hgs more dangerous as they should be. That's cool.

Kind of.  Half-giants get hit hard all the time.  I wouldn't be surprised if early-game half-giants die more due to being unable to flee.

[Morgenes]

currently the code only acts on normal combat.  Special attacks such as kick, bash, backstab, sap, and so on do not.  We're thinking about changing this to work on other attack types such as backstab and sap.

[Lizzie]

I haven't tested it. I have only one concern that I haven't noticed anyone else mention yet. For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual? As it is, if a clan has 5 people who spar on a schedule, and they're all there in the sparring yard, the odds of each person having a chance to run a full sparring "session" are just about perfect. Any more than 5 and it makes things pretty difficult, and if someone has to sit out and recover from being dazed, and everyone else has to RP reacting to that PC being dazed, you could end up with half the players sitting there, not getting any chance to spar at all, and a RL hour is pretty much wasted from a purely coded standpoint. I realize the game isn't all about the stats and skill boosts, and RP is essential. But when you are playing a combat character and your unit depends on everyone attempting to get those coded skills to something better than "noobie" status, it can really put a dent in things.

So, that's my only concern. If there was a way to override the daze recovery time when your character is in a sparring yard, or something like that, I think it would be great.

[Forty Winks]

Havn't tested this new implementation out yet, but I think the effect of daze is only the combat delay. After the delay, the timers on things continue on as they should unless you are dazed again, which they freeze up for the daze duration once more. There aren't any long-lasting effects from daze I think.

[jmordetsky]

I haven't tested it. I have only one concern that I haven't noticed anyone else mention yet. For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual? As it is, if a clan has 5 people who spar on a schedule, and they're all there in the sparring yard, the odds of each person having a chance to run a full sparring "session" are just about perfect. Any more than 5 and it makes things pretty difficult, and if someone has to sit out and recover from being dazed, and everyone else has to RP reacting to that PC being dazed, you could end up with half the players sitting there, not getting any chance to spar at all, and a RL hour is pretty much wasted from a purely coded standpoint. I realize the game isn't all about the stats and skill boosts, and RP is essential. But when you are playing a combat character and your unit depends on everyone attempting to get those coded skills to something better than "noobie" status, it can really put a dent in things.

So, that's my only concern. If there was a way to override the daze recovery time when your character is in a sparring yard, or something like that, I think it would be great.

I never understood the one spar match in a room at a time rule thing. The training rooms are virtually very large. More then one person could spar at a time if they needed to.

Though this does make it more dangerous.

[X-D]

I really hope that this is Daze V1.0a. Currently, I do not like it. I think that getting dazed from being hit on the hand, even for frightening damage is just plain SILLY. Race should have a Direct affect on how easy someone is to daze and how long it lasts.

But the idea that a blow to an area that is NOT part of the central nervous system can make you forget how to run, UNrealistic.

[creeper386]

Well, I think it could very well be a good thing. People say that they are worried about big creatures killing players off more often ... Well, if you get caught by something that can eat you, and you can't get away, it should eat you. I do think this might be something that'll push to get something done about being able to more easiely notice big things ... Hopefully, which would be a good thing. Even if it's just larger creatures sending out echoes to several rooms around them so if you are at a diagnol you have a better chance of knowing they are there.

Anyways, the one problem I have though, is the fact that bigger slower things tend to have a bad habit of getting hit harder. Yes half-giants are huge and tough and dish out damage, but they sometimes seem to get hit much harder then other people too. Don't know why, but I've seen half-giants get hit harder more often by creatures then humans and such when I've played within combat oriented rolls, and I wouldn't want to see half-giants getting dazed very often. I've also seen alot of big creatures get hit very hard when ganged up on, but I don't honestly see them as the sort of creatures that a human or elf would hit them hard enough to be dazed. So hopefully this sort of thing was looked after and covered.

As far as the sparring and such goes ... I have honestly been in many combat roles, and alittle down time from sparring I've never seen as a bad thing. Most the time when you play regularly and have make it through a few rounds of sparring a few IC days every RL day ... Ussually it's more then enough to keep skills on the up and up, to the point that I honestly prefer when I'm in charge to avoid sparring during training times, and do training that is less coded or focuses on less trained skills. I don't forsee this nerfing anyones combat advancement, even if it cuts down on training time.

[Halaster]

For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual?

No, not at all.  Being dazed in combat lasts a very, very short time.  You don't get your next swing.  And then that's it, the effects have passed.

[jstorrie]

Not only do I support this but I think the addition of the dazing mechanic may allow for some interesting spells, skills or abilities in the future. Kudos.

ps dazeproof my pcs plz

[Dalmeth]

I wouldn't call the daze very short, but it's not so long.

I would like to suggest that scale where you get dazed from stun damage be adjusted.   As it is, realitvely minor hits from bludgeoning weapons and especially fists can cause the dazed state.

Though I suppose the really strange thing about this new feature is what does it do besides make a bad situation for someone worse?

[Tlaloc]

Make a good situation, better (provided you're on the right side)?

I'm not certain that things need to nessecarially always "make something better". Can you explain what you mean, or why you think it should?

[Lizzie]

If you just miss your next swing then my main concern is moot. Not everyone has a few hours every day to play, so if half the time they -can- play is spent sticking to schedule, following their clan's rules, in the sparring yard, and -not- sparring, eventually you start wondering when you're going to do something other than stand there emoting how exciting it is to watch everyone else.

That was my primary concern, it's been addressed, so thank you. Please carry on with the rest of the discussion

L. Stanson

[Dakkon Black]

I haven't had much experience with the dazed code. But until it goes into place for mages as well, I'd say that they just got handed a severe hurt.