HRPT - What We Learned

[Halaster]

This is the thread where we can talk about what we learned from this HRPT and how we can improve such things going forward.  A few rules:  The GDB rules still apply - no flaming, and no posting of sensitive-IC information.  You should either disguise events so as to be unrecognizable, or don't post them.  If you can't post them because they're too IC-sensitive, email them to me.

We're looking for constructive criticism.  I'm not saying you can't disagree or criticize, but we want everyone to remain civil and polite about it.

So then, let's have it.

:arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix?
:arrow: How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
:arrow: What things went wrong and could be done better?
:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?
:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, idead, etc. about this topic?

Staff members can reply if they like, too (though we're also going to have a staff only version of this).

[Malifaxis]

I'll try to cover a few of the facets in one post.

One thing I saw wrong with the HRPT was the lack of active transport for people wanting to get to the frontlines.  Realistically, all they would have to do is get to the wagonyard and ask to be conscripted, any conscript or militia or whatever could then jump on a supply wagon bound for the HRPT site.

I very highly suggest that some form of 'automated' transportation system be in place for the next one that involves large numbers outside of major metropolitan areas.  The intrinsic problem is that it would have to be kept IC for what is majorly an OOC problem.  A transportation script would have to be written up, with a series of echoes that would last about 5 mins.  The PC in question would be transferred to a room where those echoes would begin, and at the end of the time would be transferred to 'outside the camp' or wherever.

The biggest problem is probably the units vs people issue.  That has been solved, though the damage done.

For the most part, I highly enjoyed the HRPT, and I really do hope youse guys throw one again!

[jstorrie]

The group I was with didn't have much to do when leaders weren't around. More things to do between pitched battles would have been awesome.

Improved unit-involving combat would also be great.

The event seemed somewhat disconnected from player victories. I understand that for the most part single player deaths are unimportant in conflicts of this scale, but there were certain player-driven events that I feel were not taken into account where the overall course of the HRPT was involved.

For the most part I had a great time.

[John]

What problems were encountered that we can fix?

Not having much to do for the people who weren't in the mix of it but were left behind.

How can they be fixed, in your opinion?

All (H)RPTs have people who won't have anything to do. However with an extended one like this, (IMO) it should be addressed as much as possible then just say "Not everyone can be involved." Perhaps having excuses/reasons for the populated area to routinely call on people in the unpopulated area. I saw a call for whores to go to the camps which provided a good reason for whores and bards, but there aren't many PC whores (and there might or might not be bards around). Asking for roles that aren't normally filled, to be filled, is great and can really open up portions of Armageddon that are normally dormant. But it doesn't help those with characters who just won't die.

In this instance perhaps seek out hunters to help provide the armies with food. Can't the army send out their own supply wagons? Of course they can, but that doesn't involve much in the terms of PCs who were left behind (and you can come up with thin excuses like it saves on 'sid if the food gets delivered).

Another idea is to have a mini-plot or two for the unpopulated areas. Again using this one as an example, have the criminal elements take the excuse for the armies being let out to see if they can do their thing more brazenly and either get the smack down laid on them, or not.

Just something to keep in mind for further extended HRPTs.

[jhunter]

One issue was just dealt with and shouldn't be as much of a problem in the future.

One of the biggest problems I saw is communication between the staff and the players involved. Not that the communication isn't happening, but it could be better. There was some confusion about how some things were happening during this. I think that communication for any future HRPTs that are run in a similar fashion should include:

1) Icly what is going on. More unsolicited communication from the higher-ups. (NPCs who are superiors to the pc leaders involved.)

2) What this means coming from an OOC standpoint. (Do we need to know if anything that was virtually happening is now in our hands to take care of?)
Basically, a clear separation between what is being done virtually and what is to be done ICly by the pcs involved.

3) Players make it more clear when communicating with the staff as to any assumptions they are having about certain things. The staff in turn, ask a few questions in regards to certain things to make sure that you and the player are on the same page. (There were things that ICly appeared one way and, according to the staff were actually something different but the players had no way to tell due to a mistake with some npcs not loading.)

I still had a really good time overall and I enjoyed it much more than previous HRPTs. I appreciate all the time and effort on everyone's part.  

[Hymwen]

Since I wasn't at the HRPT for very long, most of this is from what I've heard from other players.

Good things, and things that should be repeated:
:arrow:  Events that change the world. Goes without saying that people like taking part in something that has an impact and will be remembered.
:arrow:  Major conflicts are fun and exciting, and gives all those military folks and warlords a purpose.
:arrow:  The frequent updates on the GDB was great, as well as posts on the rumor boards for the home teams.
(can't think of anything else right now, but I'll add them as it comes up)

Bad things:
:arrow:  I personally think it lasted too long. While the HRPT was probably great for those who were deeply involved, a lot of people saw a severe decrease in the quality and amount of RP around them. I was on the receiving end, and it's easy for someone to say "make some fun for yourself" when you're nearly on your own for weeks.
:arrow:  Apart from the posts on boards, I think people outside of the camps saw very little of the war.
:arrow:  More love to the off-peakers. The couple of europeans I know who were at the HRPT say that not once did anything outside of the ordinary happen before 2-3am in their timezone.

[bloodfromstone]

More love to the off-peakers. The couple of europeans I know who were at the HRPT say that not once did anything outside of the ordinary happen before 2-3am in their timezone.

Ditto. It feels funny Waying the people back home when you've been at war for a whole month, which is a long time in Zalanthan terms.

"Are you all right? Has there been much fighting? Are you scared?"
"...uh, no, mostly we just kind of stand around. I guess I slept through all of the fighting?"

I also agree that more stuff should have happened back home. I know it's been said that the the stance on HRPTs will always be that some people just don't see anything, but that is way different when we're talking about a 4 hour session, instead of a much longer period of time. I feel for the people back home who had basically squat to do for quite some time.

That said, I think it was a great experiment. It was fun, active, and I got to see a lot of PCs in an interesting setting. I look forward to seeing more of this nature. Kudos to all involved on all sides: Allanaki, Tuluki, and Imm.

[Vessol]

First of all, I think the HRPT was well done, with the rumours and all the fun stuff, propaganda being on both sides.
One problem of mine, is that I am usualy very busy, and I often missed almost most battles, mayby have it ok for commanders to tell us in OOC a day before or something when an attack is planned, and such.
I also like the ending, though I am confused as what the heck happened, but ah well, I will learn IC I suppose.

[mansa]

i thought it was awesome except that some people died

[Barzalene]

I'd like to agree with Malifaxis. My pc found it very difficult to find the war. That was my only complaint.

[Hymwen]

More:

Good
:arrow: Some effort was put into getting people to the war. I know frequent wagon-trips or patrols were made back to the city to pick up fresh cannon fodder.

Bad
:arrow: A purely OOC concern of mine was a sense of forced gratitude on the GDB, and anyone who dared speak anything but high praise of the HRPT were met with unnecessary harshness and some very inappropriate comments.

:arrow: I think the staff could have let people know that it was more than a four hour thing. Most people were given the impression that it would be like previous HRPTs where you go out, have fun for a handful of hours, die, and then that's it. Not saying anything about the idea of an extended HRPT, but if I was one of the players who marched out that first day with a vision of glory and a fun-filled evening, I would have liked to know that I might end up stuck in a camp for RL weeks. I don't know how long the staff had anticipated that the whole thing would last, but they obviously knew that it would be a long haul, and they should have let people know IMO.

[Rairen]

As one of the people stuck in town-based roles during this - Sometimes, with gaming, there needs to be a dry, long stretch where nothing happens to make the 'big' moments mean something.  I felt that happened tonight, with the return of the armies.  To see people's reactions - it actually felt real.  Worth all the slowness about town for the last few weeks.  :wink:

[ThirdEye]

My only complaint is that during my time in the HRPT, I didn't kill anybody

I imagine it was great fun, just not good for an off-peaker.

[Ava]

I very highly suggest that some form of 'automated' transportation system be in place for the next one that involves large numbers outside of major metropolitan areas.  ...  A transportation script would have to be written up, with a series of echoes that would last about 5 mins.  The PC in question would be transferred to a room where those echoes would begin, and at the end of the time would be transferred to 'outside the camp' or wherever.

I'd suggest, instead, an actual scripted wagon with some semi-intelligent guards that goes back and forth at somewhat predictable intervals.  Gives both sides a target. ;-)

From my perspective as a grunt, it seemed like there were only 2-3 people who really had the authority to take people out of the camp in force.  In a future extended HRPT, I would love to see several semi-automated tasks that PCs could take part in: guarding a daily supply wagon, scouting, whatever.

Realism questions: for the 'nakki side, is the ratio of wet-wigglers to soldiers really high enough for them to supply all the water? What are all those units drinking? It strikes me that food and water should have been a major survival issue for both sides.

Is it too easy--unrealistically easy--for PCs to die, or are we just stupid? ;-)

A fun experience, overall, but pretty slow at times.

[Dre]

:arrow:  What problems were encountered that we can fix?

-More leaders needed from the start
-Almost nothing to do when leaders weren't about
-Mass killing of PCs.

:arrow:  How can they be fixed, in your opinion?

From the very begining there should have been more templars around, possibly spread out through a few timezones, this was fixed as the HPRT moved along however not only should there have been more templar but if the Templar died the same player should have made a new templar to play at that camp inorder to avoid wasting time OOC recruiting and then the new player (Templar) familiarizing themselves with what was going on with the camp. Every time a new templar popped up it took time for them to learn what to do and how to handle the people around them, mistakes were made and usually meant a day or so of boring play even with a templar about.

There was nothing to do when there wasn't a leader except possibly scout and all that meant was moving around barren lands with the possibility of finding another enemy scouting party(which automatically ended up in either you or they running away back to camp). It would have been more interesting if there were more enemy NPC spread out through the area we could abmush and kill or location of interest we could go to gather information. Also some leway to allow PC travel back and forth between camps and cities would have been nice. This would be esspecially good for off-peek players in the camp.

I think the unit gank of doom has been addressed through code. I hate to say this but for the HPRT there were just too many magicker PCs.  What ended up happening was Northern camp templars began killing them as fast and whenever they possibly could without the same regard they would give a possible fleeing mundane.  I thought was unfair the the magicker's player. On the other side of the coin...a northern templar...one wrong choice in direction to go...mix in couple of invisible magickers...alot of dead PCs...at least when your fighting mundanes there is still a chance to flee. Macroed spells of doom are just instant killers of PCs.  I know magicker enthusiast can come up with a million and one ways of why its IC but frankly its not OOCly fun to enter a room and be macroed to death. That said it wasn't  as bad with magickers as i thought it could have been but i still really think that for this type of HRPT Magickers should be special apped like templars and given some restrictions.  You know don't target PC with sleep instead make it rain lightning bolts that randomly hit people kinda deal, give mundanes chance to flee. Esspecially now that templars won't be able to kill them first. :twisted:

:arrow:  What things went wrong and could be done better?

Can't say anything particularly went wrong. With possibly what i've said above. Otherwise i think ever did the best they could and some IC mistakes were made but that happens.

:arrow:  What things went well and should be repeated?

I think the way the camps were stratagizing was great to see...I think it would have been nice if the underling players would have been allowed to get more involve with that or at least had smaller roles.  

It would have been amazing if there were things around the camps or area that players could find out and use to their advantage, purposely left there from Imms to find.  For example, a couple of Meks close to camp X, a hidden path to a cliff with large rocks right above camp Y.

:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. about this topic?

I think the imms and esspecially ALL the templars involved did an amazing job. It was not easy to pull off and at times (esspecially with units, sandstorms and patrols) it was down right  fustrating but the templars managed to keep their cool and give us all a fun time working along side the imms.

Good Job and Thanks for treating me to a good time

[Cale_Knight]

Realism questions: for the 'nakki side, is the ratio of wet-wigglers to soldiers really high enough for them to supply all the water?

Well, virtual numbers echo real numbers. There were enough PC vivs to water all the PCs in the camp, so there were enough vNPC vivs to water all the vNPCs.

[gfair]

The whole "missions" concept needs to be improved upon. Something like an email list for all participating combatants broken down by which side they were on would be good. Players creating missions could get them approved by staff, and staff could authorize a mailing to email accounts of an upcoming event on which day and time.

This would have let me know what was going on.

Oh, also - closure. Could IMMs ensure that there is closure for everyone, so people who may miss significant events can still log in and find out what to do after a potential situation passes?

Thanks.

[Vessol]

Another problem was having no visable source of food to many PCs, I remember waiting for a long time to find a Ruk and a Viv, to get me much needed food and water. I think that a NPC cook, would provide a simple stew(I am getting this idea from the Byn) that all players can ask for(it would also keep track of the amount they eat, so no overeating). To keep this more realistic, the automated supply lines(a real part of any war, that sadly was not usualy implemented very well in the HRPT) would bring in a variable of food supplies, but if that supply line is cut off, then the line of food is cut off, and no food for PCs . With that a real food shortage would be dangerous, and supply lines would be vital to maintain, and to not over extend yourself(seeing the Allanak camp way out in the middle of cliffs and such, was a bit unrealistic to me). Call this SimWar I guess? I have ideas for vNPC soldiers, but I am too tired now. Imms, just give my SimSupplyline idea a thought for the next war .

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As for the wagon gig and a way of getting people back home involved:
There is a wagon in Alanak/Tuluk's wagonyard. This wagon is clearly marked. PCs go to this wagon and sell the NPC items, most likely limited to armor/weapons/food. The NPCs does not sell these items, but stores them in a storeroom on the wagon. The wagon also doubles as transportation, and they announces that they will leave at high noon each Nekrete (or whatever). The wagon goes to the Allanak/Tuluk camp and stays there for half a RL day, during which the storeroom is unloaded to the camp by PCs. The wagon then departs again, serving as transportation if need be, and returns to the Tuluk/Allanak wagon yard for half a RL day, when the cycle is repeated.

I liked the HRPT. Other than the drama of trying to get to the camps, just about everything was well done. I would suggest that any Immortal available at any time of the day when there is more then one player online in both camps do something, small or large. From chatter chats with NPC soldiers to mini skirmishs, all of these liven the event up.

[jcarter]

My only problem with the HRPT was the time that things were generally held at. I had to avoid last night's because I figured it was another thing that would end up lasting until 1:30 or 2 in the morning when I need to get up for work. I know this isn't anyone's fault and is pretty much the best time to do it for some staffers, but for something like last night I think it'd be better if we had it on a Friday night.

The camp boards were a great idea. I just wish myself and others had utilized them a lot more towards the tail end of the war. This wasn't necessarily an immortal-side issue as much as player-side.

The camps had the feeling of real camps, but I think they would have been better off being more spread out. Rather than one room inside, maybe two or three. At times, the screen spam could be a bit overwhelming.

Towards the end, the commoner PC organization and leadership started to fall apart. I'll assume this is because of all the deaths and such. I'm not sure how it could be fixed, honestly. You could promote PCs to be lieutenants and sergeants, but there were some pretty good ones out there already.

[Boggis]

"Are you all right? Has there been much fighting? Are you scared?"
"...uh, no, mostly we just kind of stand around. I guess I slept through all of the fighting?"

As an off-peaker too the way I'm handling that is that if the engagement was something that the whole army was involved in e.g. the assault on the Tuluki camp then I was there and I'll just make it up. If anybody says something dumb like, "but I didn't see you there!", I'll just ignore them - they can hardly have a photographic memory of the two thousand people fighting on their side. As for the smaller engagements I'd just go with something along the lines of how I was attached to a different unit and I'll come up with my own stories about small skirmishes - nothing amazing about how I personally slew three templars, just your average run of the mill war stories.

It might've been nice to have more things happening around off-peak times but seeing as this was pretty much a player run event that was running right the way through the week that was always going to be an issue. I did see the Imms jump in the odd time during off-peak times to run some mini-missions which was appreciated. There were also numerous small skirmishes during off-peak times and given that the new unit code wasn't in for most of the HRPT I'd wager that they were more fun. Going to a battle and getting my PC pummelled by a unit in two seconds isn't fun in my book.

[marko]

HRPT Thoughts:

First and foremost I believe the immortals did an incredible job at running this.  Thank you all for your efforts.  I can't imagine just how much time went into running the HRPT - how many hours were spent with all the responding to emails, running the events themselves, dealing with players, and trying to keep the thing manageable.  The immortals appear to have done  it all with grace and panache - Great Job!

One thing I started to think about after it was brought up here is player interaction and involvement in HRPTs.  Having played in a number of HRPTs over the years - I've noticed this common theme:  The player leaders are usually quite involved in the process but the non-leaders are often just fodder or ignored.

So what do you do with non-leader characters?  Well, if it is a military HRPT I would think that a chain of command should be established by the player leaders in charge of such things.  That would hopefully alleviate the inability to take initiative for the non-leaders so they can do various tasks.

I think it's up to the player leaders to provide a series of tasks for the non-leader characters to stay involved.  I think the immortals can help but I think that's more a bonus then necessary or a solution, for example, if a party of six are out scouting then they could scare up an enemy npc or something.  

The question still remains: What do you do with a bunch of players who will be online when none of the full-scale leaders are on or when there are no missions being run?  

There are a variety of camp tasks and there is the interaction of being in a military camp.  Typically when reading accounts of historical battles there's a lot of describing days or boredom followed by moments of terror (actual battles).  But that still doesn't really answer the question.

I think a series of lesser tasks or goals that could be accomplished by the non-leader types would be work here.  Maybe even put some of the rank and file in charge of supply runs.  A corporal or sergeant or whatever could watch over the delivery of lesser goods or new people coming out to the front line.  So long as there were say, four PCs on, they could do a supply run.  Or a patrol.  Or maybe a resource gathering mission.  

But really, I think these are tasks that the player leaders should be setting down for their underlings based on whatever tasks they need to accomplished from their own superiors.  

So if templar Grumpy is set with the task of building a wall then he gathers together the non-leader PCs and issues orders for building that wall.  These non-leader PCs now have a standing order to follow until the wall is built.  Therefore, each time they log in they work on the wall - or they don't and ignore the order which then leads to the wall not being built.  In either case they have contributed to their side's position either positively (by building the wall) or negatively (by not building the wall).

I'm not sure if this really helps any since it doesn't really provide an immortal level solution for greater involvement.  But, I hope that people will read it and incorporate it into their play for the next RPT.  

Further, a little initiative from a character often goes a long way - be that suggesting ideas, thinking of a task and just doing it (risking punishment if they fail), or doing whatever.

[Fnord]

I liked this player driven, prolonged HRPT, for those reasons. It really felt like the players could sway the end result, and it went on for long enough that most people could get involved. Rock on!

[Marauder Moe]

:arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix?

Units vs. PCs.

:arrow: How can they be fixed, in your opinion?

You guys already seem to be working on some good solutions for units.

:arrow: What things went wrong and could be done better?

Off-peak activities.

:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?

Several possibilities I can think of: make an effort to have more off-peak leaders, or let some staff animate some leaders so off-peak players can get some action.  Said action doesn't neccesarily have to be PC vs PC either.  It would be cool if random NPC scouts or platoons were wondering around the battlefield (SimWar).

:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, idead, etc. about this topic?

I had tons of fun.  Peak times are a little bit past my weekday bedtime so I lost a lot of sleep, though.  I'd love to see this happen again, once or twice a year or so.

[Ava]

On the other side of the coin...a northern templar...one wrong choice in direction to go...mix in couple of invisible magickers...alot of dead PCs...at least when your fighting mundanes there is still a chance to flee. Macroed spells of doom are just instant killers of PCs.

I can almost not express how happy this makes me. IC attitude leakover. ;-)

Seriously, I know it's not fun to insta-die, but I'd expect nothing less from an enemy 'gicker.  Anything with "templar" written on it is too dangerous to trap..though apparently not dangerous enough. :twisted: