Guild Sniffing

[Anonymous]

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter." Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?" JC says, "Huh?" Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?" J.M. gets up and leaves.

It's not okay, and if you see someone guild-fishing like this, feel free to drop a note to the account about it.

This got me thinking about a recent incident that might have been guild sniffing.

Yesterday my boss came up to my character, said that he had heard my character was a thief, and asked if my character could pick locks.  When I insisted that I couldn't I was promptly fired, though I told him that I'd gladly pick locks for him if I knew how.

Would this be thought of as guild-sniffing?  It seems different and yet the saem as the cavilish example.  There is basically only one class that can pick locks, just like there's only one class that automatically knows cavilish.  But if you really need someone who can pick locks, I can understand why you might fire somebody because they can't.

So would the above be thought of as guild-sniffing, or could an IC rationale for it be accepted?

[mansa]

Your best bet is to email the mud account.

I usually play burglars as merchants and warriors as thieves, so I don't care.  But that's just me.

[Eternal]

Though this thread is likely to be locked due to sensitive IC info, I feel mansa has a very good point.

I tend to view guilds not so much as 'class' that the character exists in, but rather what they're capable of.  As such, my pickpockets are often believed to be warriors or merchants (depending on their personality and methods) and my warriors are commonly confused with assassins.  This amuses me to no end when it's apparent that someone is working around my 'guessed at' skillset.

Lord Templar Hard Nose believes a character is who they are, not a combination of race guild/subguild.

[Halaster]

I don't think the question "can you pick locks?"  is guild fishing.  I mean, it's a legit question about whether you know how to do it or not.  If they then proceeded to ask "can you hide?  can you sneak?" and others, then yah that's cheesey.  But just that question in and of itself?  Nah.

[LoD]

I think that "guild fishing" sometimes spawns from Amiguous Amos, who specializes in giving dodgy interviews that drive employers absolutely bat-CRAZY!

Employer: So, what sort of work do you do?
PC: Oh, a little bit of this and that.

Employer: Can you be more specific?
PC: Whatever puts food on the table.

Employer: What do you think you would bring to the organization?
PC: I'll do whatever job you give me to do.

Employer: And what jobs are you qualified for?
PC: Oh, whatever needs to be done.

As Halaster mentioned in his post, there's sort of a fine line between what is a cheesy question and what is legitimite to ask of someone seeking work with your organization/House.  Part of the problem is Ambiguous Amos forces employers to turn the discussion more guild specific because they can't seem to come up with an answer without being uncooperative (while they likely feel they're being mysterious).

If you don't like guild sniffing, don't be part of the problem and be a guild avoider either.  I mean, try going into a RL job interview someday and when they say, "Tell me a little bit about yourself." you respond, "Oh, I've been around here or there."  You'll get sent packing because the employer needs to know more than you're a warm body ready to eat their food, drink their water, and accept their money.

If you have a service to sell (i.e. thievery, fighting, bodyguard, hunter, scouting, crafting, personal skills, wicker basket champion), then be prepared to talk about it if you want to be taken seriously by any realistic employer.

-LoD

[SpyGuy]

I agree with LoD.

[Intrepid]

I concur as well.

[Bebop]

Urm, along the lines of guild sniffing something else I've seen that erks me is people trying to figure out how long someones character has been accepted, or how long they have been playing a character instead of just treating the person like they have been alive doing their job forever.

[Jherlen]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

I hate the "Ambiguous Amos" types too -- and my leader PCs usually don't give them jobs. If you want to get hired, then apply for a position rather than just expecting a leader to find a job for you. So definitely that's a problem. But guild sniffing isn't always a result of that.

I would define guild sniffing as trying to get someone to give away their coded guild based on OOC knowledge of what certain guilds can do. For example, asking someone if they can speak cavilish, disarm opponents, pick locks, set traps, and so on. Yes, in some cases this can be evaded (i.e. people can lie), but for the most part I think it's too easy (and also very cheap) to sniff out the guild of a new PC.

[Anonymous]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

I have to agree some with this. Part of the reason the "Amos" types have come in vogue is the perceived press for people to move away from views of their hard-coded classes as the only means for employment.  The mentality of treat a thief as a thief and an assassin as an assassin was disfavored by players who felt that bards who were assassins, or caravan-guides who were merchants would be more interesting.

While immediately addressing someone in Cavillish and dismissing them for not being a coded merchant is twinky, one could make the same argument about the practicality of being able to codedly pick a lock for the coded ability to speak what is popularly considered to be a trader tongue.

At a point, we have to conceed that a mud does have hard-coded skills, they do have a point, and they should influence the role play and employability of a character.  I think that the role play in the crafter/merchant example is pretty deplorable, but I'm not sure there's an iron-clad case against guild-sniffing in this case.

[John]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has. If I got told someone in my employ was a thief, them being able to break into homes would definitely be useful. However them being able to just pick stuff up off people walking down a street might be more of a liability. Just because someone is willing to learn how to pick locks, doesn't mean they'll be any good at it.

I have to agree some with this. Part of the reason the "Amos" types have come in vogue is the perceived press for people to move away from views of their hard-coded classes as the only means for employment.  The mentality of treat a thief as a thief and an assassin as an assassin was disfavored by players who felt that bards who were assassins, or caravan-guides who were merchants would be more interesting.

If a merchant class can pull off being a caravan guide I see no problem with it.

[Bebop]

I would just like to add, it may not have specifically been guild sniffing we can't know without the specifics.  But! I would have to say from what I see I think that it could have been handled better by the employer.

But who can be sure.

[Jherlen]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a guild_burglar has.

Skills such as sneak, hide, and even steal are granted by subguild. So are the crafting skills. Thus, asking somebody if they can move sneakily or make widgets is not really guild sniffing, because it doesn't narrow stuff down for you. Pick and cavilish are the primary skills of basically only one guild.

[Anonymous]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

I second this.

[John]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Pickin

If you wish to simply think in guilds and subguilds in game, that's your business. Me, I think it's perfectly fine to ask someone who I think is a thief if they can break into homes. It shows a level of expertise your common pickpocket (job, not guild) doesn't have.

[Anonymous]

I agree that being able to open a lock is different, but I guess the distinction for me is that being able to pick a lock is not the definitive measure of all my skills in an IC scenario.

Being able to pick a lock is just damned useful.

Being able to speak cavilish, however, is used to determine whether someone can barter, etc etc. even if done so incorrectly (as anyone can learn a language given time).

That's the line for me, I think.

And I never said there was anything wrong with being a caravansman merchant. =)  I'm devlish that way.

[Jherlen]

And when you turn that around and attempt to apply it to cavilish and merchants, I think the analogy breaks down. Knowing cavilish shows a level of expertise that your common crafter doesn't have.

So again, where is the difference and why is one okay while one isn't?

[John]

And when you turn that around and attempt to apply it to cavilish and merchants, I think the analogy breaks down. Knowing cavilish shows a level of expertise that your common crafter doesn't have.

So again, where is the difference and why is one okay while one isn't?

Are you hiring someone as a crafter or a merchant? Who cares if a crafter can haggle and barter (which is what cavilish allows you to do in a way that other languages simply aren't as adept at because they don't have all the terms IMO). What matters is if they're an expert tailor. Using the fact that ONLY people with Cavilish can become expert tailors is OOC knowledge. Anyone who practices enough, has well enough teachers and enough knowledge and know-how can become an expert tailor.

Cavilish = trade of merchants.
Pick = trade of thieves.
Crafter = ICly nothing to do with Cavilish.

[bloodfromstone]

Being a thief doesn't have anything to do with picking locks. Being a thief means you take things that don't belong to you. That's all. Granted, being able to pick locks is pretty invaluable to someone who likes to take things that don't belong to them, but it's really not required. I mean, I've stolen things with a warrior/thug character. Just like I've met "merchants" that were guild ranger. I don't think making a blanket judgement about someone because they can/can't pick locks/speak Cavalish is acceptable, unless you're hiring someone to break into a lock or talk to dune traders.

[John]

Being a thief doesn't have anything to do with picking locks. Being a thief means you take things that don't belong to you. That's all. Granted, being able to pick locks is pretty invaluable to someone who likes to take things that don't belong to them, but it's really not required. I mean, I've stolen things with a warrior/thug character. Just like I've met "merchants" that were guild ranger. I don't think making a blanket judgement about someone because they can/can't pick locks/speak Cavalish is acceptable, unless you're hiring someone to break into a lock.

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around. If he's a thief that picks people's pockets, I'm not as likely to keep him around. He'll need to be a pretty damn good pickpocket for me to hire him.

I disagree that having a character who thinks the above is guild sniffing.

[Same guest]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has. If I got told someone in my employ was a thief, them being able to break into homes would definitely be useful. However them being able to just pick stuff up off people walking down a street might be more of a liability. Just because someone is willing to learn how to pick locks, doesn't mean they'll be any good at it.

Picking locks isn't what defines being a thief.  My little sister can pick a lock.  But she can't size up a potential target, carry out a successful mugging or extortion operation, follow a target without being seen, or any number of things.  But that isn't really the point.

It's actually understandable why he asked if I could pick locks.  He needed someone who could get "something" done.  But when he found out I couldn't pick locks, he asked if there was anything else I could do to get "something" done.

I told him a bunch of things that I could do that didn't rely on coded skills, but he wasn't interested and so I was fired.  I wasn't being ambiguous amos, I was just trying for a role that didn't require coded skills (since the coded skills I had wouldn't have helped me in the job).  If I had been allowed to help in non-coded ways then I might have even eventually tried to get my class changed to burglar so that I could pick locks like he wanted.  But all in all, it seems like I was fired because I wasn't a burglar.

Anyway, I really can't know what was going on behind the scenes.  I just wanted to know what other people thought, and I wanted a better idea of what might constitute as guild sniffing.

[Anonymous]

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around. If he's a thief that picks people's pockets, I'm not as likely to keep him around. He'll need to be a pretty damn good pickpocket for me to hire him.

I disagree that having a character who thinks the above is guild sniffing.

The above seems pretty obviously guild-sniffing to me.  It seems like the translation of your post is that pickpockets are bad and burglars are good, so you'll just try to find out whether or not your employee is a burglar or a pickpocket so you can decide whether to keep them or fire them.

[Anonymous]

The above seems pretty obviously guild-sniffing to me.  It seems like the translation of your post is that pickpockets are bad and burglars are good, so you'll just try to find out whether or not your employee is a burglar or a pickpocket so you can decide whether to keep them or fire them.

agreed

[John]

Then explain to me how I'm suppose to find out if someone can break into homes (without the person finding out) without "guild sniffing"?

[SpyGuy]

Without knowing specifics all I can say is that the employer likely did wrong in firing the person for not having a skill, but I'm in no position to judge since I don't know anything about the situation.  Really the other person should have been kept on if they would have been of any use, mainly because it sounds like Guest was making an honest attempt at being a part of the guild.

Is asking a person if they can pick locks guild sniffing though?  OOCly of course, except in special apps we can easily figure out only certain class(es) get certain skills.  But I feel it's ICly permissible because if you need someone who can pick a lock, you need someone who can pick a lock.  It's a skill that has just about no substitute in a lot of situations and is very very valuable.  Combat skills, however, are quite a bit different because several classes can be killing machines.

In my opinion employers have a right to ask employees about their abilities, but such questions should be entirely focused on general spheres of ability like "You think you can get quietly into that building?" rather than "So can you sneak and hide, because I need someone to shadow this dude."  It's a fine line and only the Imms can draw it, if you feel you've been wronged email the MUD.