Guild Sniffing

[Anonymous]

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter." Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?" JC says, "Huh?" Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?" J.M. gets up and leaves.

It's not okay, and if you see someone guild-fishing like this, feel free to drop a note to the account about it.

This got me thinking about a recent incident that might have been guild sniffing.

Yesterday my boss came up to my character, said that he had heard my character was a thief, and asked if my character could pick locks.  When I insisted that I couldn't I was promptly fired, though I told him that I'd gladly pick locks for him if I knew how.

Would this be thought of as guild-sniffing?  It seems different and yet the saem as the cavilish example.  There is basically only one class that can pick locks, just like there's only one class that automatically knows cavilish.  But if you really need someone who can pick locks, I can understand why you might fire somebody because they can't.

So would the above be thought of as guild-sniffing, or could an IC rationale for it be accepted?

[mansa]

Your best bet is to email the mud account.

I usually play burglars as merchants and warriors as thieves, so I don't care.  But that's just me.

[Eternal]

Though this thread is likely to be locked due to sensitive IC info, I feel mansa has a very good point.

I tend to view guilds not so much as 'class' that the character exists in, but rather what they're capable of.  As such, my pickpockets are often believed to be warriors or merchants (depending on their personality and methods) and my warriors are commonly confused with assassins.  This amuses me to no end when it's apparent that someone is working around my 'guessed at' skillset.

Lord Templar Hard Nose believes a character is who they are, not a combination of race guild/subguild.

[Halaster]

I don't think the question "can you pick locks?"  is guild fishing.  I mean, it's a legit question about whether you know how to do it or not.  If they then proceeded to ask "can you hide?  can you sneak?" and others, then yah that's cheesey.  But just that question in and of itself?  Nah.

[LoD]

I think that "guild fishing" sometimes spawns from Amiguous Amos, who specializes in giving dodgy interviews that drive employers absolutely bat-CRAZY!

Employer: So, what sort of work do you do?
PC: Oh, a little bit of this and that.

Employer: Can you be more specific?
PC: Whatever puts food on the table.

Employer: What do you think you would bring to the organization?
PC: I'll do whatever job you give me to do.

Employer: And what jobs are you qualified for?
PC: Oh, whatever needs to be done.

As Halaster mentioned in his post, there's sort of a fine line between what is a cheesy question and what is legitimite to ask of someone seeking work with your organization/House.  Part of the problem is Ambiguous Amos forces employers to turn the discussion more guild specific because they can't seem to come up with an answer without being uncooperative (while they likely feel they're being mysterious).

If you don't like guild sniffing, don't be part of the problem and be a guild avoider either.  I mean, try going into a RL job interview someday and when they say, "Tell me a little bit about yourself." you respond, "Oh, I've been around here or there."  You'll get sent packing because the employer needs to know more than you're a warm body ready to eat their food, drink their water, and accept their money.

If you have a service to sell (i.e. thievery, fighting, bodyguard, hunter, scouting, crafting, personal skills, wicker basket champion), then be prepared to talk about it if you want to be taken seriously by any realistic employer.

-LoD

[SpyGuy]

I agree with LoD.

[Intrepid]

I concur as well.

[Bebop]

Urm, along the lines of guild sniffing something else I've seen that erks me is people trying to figure out how long someones character has been accepted, or how long they have been playing a character instead of just treating the person like they have been alive doing their job forever.

[Jherlen]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

I hate the "Ambiguous Amos" types too -- and my leader PCs usually don't give them jobs. If you want to get hired, then apply for a position rather than just expecting a leader to find a job for you. So definitely that's a problem. But guild sniffing isn't always a result of that.

I would define guild sniffing as trying to get someone to give away their coded guild based on OOC knowledge of what certain guilds can do. For example, asking someone if they can speak cavilish, disarm opponents, pick locks, set traps, and so on. Yes, in some cases this can be evaded (i.e. people can lie), but for the most part I think it's too easy (and also very cheap) to sniff out the guild of a new PC.

[Anonymous]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

I have to agree some with this. Part of the reason the "Amos" types have come in vogue is the perceived press for people to move away from views of their hard-coded classes as the only means for employment.  The mentality of treat a thief as a thief and an assassin as an assassin was disfavored by players who felt that bards who were assassins, or caravan-guides who were merchants would be more interesting.

While immediately addressing someone in Cavillish and dismissing them for not being a coded merchant is twinky, one could make the same argument about the practicality of being able to codedly pick a lock for the coded ability to speak what is popularly considered to be a trader tongue.

At a point, we have to conceed that a mud does have hard-coded skills, they do have a point, and they should influence the role play and employability of a character.  I think that the role play in the crafter/merchant example is pretty deplorable, but I'm not sure there's an iron-clad case against guild-sniffing in this case.

[John]

I fail to see how "Do you speak cavilish?" is guild sniffing but "Do you pick locks?" isn't. Both are a primary skill of basically one and only one guild and not offered by subguilds.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has. If I got told someone in my employ was a thief, them being able to break into homes would definitely be useful. However them being able to just pick stuff up off people walking down a street might be more of a liability. Just because someone is willing to learn how to pick locks, doesn't mean they'll be any good at it.

I have to agree some with this. Part of the reason the "Amos" types have come in vogue is the perceived press for people to move away from views of their hard-coded classes as the only means for employment.  The mentality of treat a thief as a thief and an assassin as an assassin was disfavored by players who felt that bards who were assassins, or caravan-guides who were merchants would be more interesting.

If a merchant class can pull off being a caravan guide I see no problem with it.

[Bebop]

I would just like to add, it may not have specifically been guild sniffing we can't know without the specifics.  But! I would have to say from what I see I think that it could have been handled better by the employer.

But who can be sure.

[Jherlen]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a guild_burglar has.

Skills such as sneak, hide, and even steal are granted by subguild. So are the crafting skills. Thus, asking somebody if they can move sneakily or make widgets is not really guild sniffing, because it doesn't narrow stuff down for you. Pick and cavilish are the primary skills of basically only one guild.

[Anonymous]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

I second this.

[John]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has.

Wrong.

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Pickin

If you wish to simply think in guilds and subguilds in game, that's your business. Me, I think it's perfectly fine to ask someone who I think is a thief if they can break into homes. It shows a level of expertise your common pickpocket (job, not guild) doesn't have.

[Anonymous]

I agree that being able to open a lock is different, but I guess the distinction for me is that being able to pick a lock is not the definitive measure of all my skills in an IC scenario.

Being able to pick a lock is just damned useful.

Being able to speak cavilish, however, is used to determine whether someone can barter, etc etc. even if done so incorrectly (as anyone can learn a language given time).

That's the line for me, I think.

And I never said there was anything wrong with being a caravansman merchant. =)  I'm devlish that way.

[Jherlen]

And when you turn that around and attempt to apply it to cavilish and merchants, I think the analogy breaks down. Knowing cavilish shows a level of expertise that your common crafter doesn't have.

So again, where is the difference and why is one okay while one isn't?

[John]

And when you turn that around and attempt to apply it to cavilish and merchants, I think the analogy breaks down. Knowing cavilish shows a level of expertise that your common crafter doesn't have.

So again, where is the difference and why is one okay while one isn't?

Are you hiring someone as a crafter or a merchant? Who cares if a crafter can haggle and barter (which is what cavilish allows you to do in a way that other languages simply aren't as adept at because they don't have all the terms IMO). What matters is if they're an expert tailor. Using the fact that ONLY people with Cavilish can become expert tailors is OOC knowledge. Anyone who practices enough, has well enough teachers and enough knowledge and know-how can become an expert tailor.

Cavilish = trade of merchants.
Pick = trade of thieves.
Crafter = ICly nothing to do with Cavilish.

[bloodfromstone]

Being a thief doesn't have anything to do with picking locks. Being a thief means you take things that don't belong to you. That's all. Granted, being able to pick locks is pretty invaluable to someone who likes to take things that don't belong to them, but it's really not required. I mean, I've stolen things with a warrior/thug character. Just like I've met "merchants" that were guild ranger. I don't think making a blanket judgement about someone because they can/can't pick locks/speak Cavalish is acceptable, unless you're hiring someone to break into a lock or talk to dune traders.

[John]

Being a thief doesn't have anything to do with picking locks. Being a thief means you take things that don't belong to you. That's all. Granted, being able to pick locks is pretty invaluable to someone who likes to take things that don't belong to them, but it's really not required. I mean, I've stolen things with a warrior/thug character. Just like I've met "merchants" that were guild ranger. I don't think making a blanket judgement about someone because they can/can't pick locks/speak Cavalish is acceptable, unless you're hiring someone to break into a lock.

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around. If he's a thief that picks people's pockets, I'm not as likely to keep him around. He'll need to be a pretty damn good pickpocket for me to hire him.

I disagree that having a character who thinks the above is guild sniffing.

[Same guest]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a thief has. If I got told someone in my employ was a thief, them being able to break into homes would definitely be useful. However them being able to just pick stuff up off people walking down a street might be more of a liability. Just because someone is willing to learn how to pick locks, doesn't mean they'll be any good at it.

Picking locks isn't what defines being a thief.  My little sister can pick a lock.  But she can't size up a potential target, carry out a successful mugging or extortion operation, follow a target without being seen, or any number of things.  But that isn't really the point.

It's actually understandable why he asked if I could pick locks.  He needed someone who could get "something" done.  But when he found out I couldn't pick locks, he asked if there was anything else I could do to get "something" done.

I told him a bunch of things that I could do that didn't rely on coded skills, but he wasn't interested and so I was fired.  I wasn't being ambiguous amos, I was just trying for a role that didn't require coded skills (since the coded skills I had wouldn't have helped me in the job).  If I had been allowed to help in non-coded ways then I might have even eventually tried to get my class changed to burglar so that I could pick locks like he wanted.  But all in all, it seems like I was fired because I wasn't a burglar.

Anyway, I really can't know what was going on behind the scenes.  I just wanted to know what other people thought, and I wanted a better idea of what might constitute as guild sniffing.

[Anonymous]

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around. If he's a thief that picks people's pockets, I'm not as likely to keep him around. He'll need to be a pretty damn good pickpocket for me to hire him.

I disagree that having a character who thinks the above is guild sniffing.

The above seems pretty obviously guild-sniffing to me.  It seems like the translation of your post is that pickpockets are bad and burglars are good, so you'll just try to find out whether or not your employee is a burglar or a pickpocket so you can decide whether to keep them or fire them.

[Anonymous]

The above seems pretty obviously guild-sniffing to me.  It seems like the translation of your post is that pickpockets are bad and burglars are good, so you'll just try to find out whether or not your employee is a burglar or a pickpocket so you can decide whether to keep them or fire them.

agreed

[John]

Then explain to me how I'm suppose to find out if someone can break into homes (without the person finding out) without "guild sniffing"?

[SpyGuy]

Without knowing specifics all I can say is that the employer likely did wrong in firing the person for not having a skill, but I'm in no position to judge since I don't know anything about the situation.  Really the other person should have been kept on if they would have been of any use, mainly because it sounds like Guest was making an honest attempt at being a part of the guild.

Is asking a person if they can pick locks guild sniffing though?  OOCly of course, except in special apps we can easily figure out only certain class(es) get certain skills.  But I feel it's ICly permissible because if you need someone who can pick a lock, you need someone who can pick a lock.  It's a skill that has just about no substitute in a lot of situations and is very very valuable.  Combat skills, however, are quite a bit different because several classes can be killing machines.

In my opinion employers have a right to ask employees about their abilities, but such questions should be entirely focused on general spheres of ability like "You think you can get quietly into that building?" rather than "So can you sneak and hide, because I need someone to shadow this dude."  It's a fine line and only the Imms can draw it, if you feel you've been wronged email the MUD.

[bloodfromstone]

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around.

I never said that was unacceptable. Actually, it sounds like we're in agreement. If you want someone who can break locks, then it is more than okay to base your hiring/firing on whether or not they can. I see nothing wrong with that. That's not guild sniffing. That is asking about something you need done.

[spawnloser]

Seriously, every truly believes that noone in the game but burglars can get the skill pick?  How do you know a that a magicker can't get a weapon skill?  Why can't someone be a master crafter and have never learned Cavilish?

If you are an employer, stop knowing what everyone can do by their guild.  Stop caring what guild they are.

If you are an employed, stop trying to hide your guild but don't say what guild you are either.  Don't say, "Yes, I can pick peoples' pockets as well as break and enter."  Say, "Yeah, I can lift the occasional thing here or there."

In regards to what you know...I'm willing to bet, as was intimated by a staff member in a public manner on this very board, that what you think you know may very well be wrong about any number of things in the game.

[Aldiel]

No, I think it's legit.  If you interview to be a doctor and the dude interviewing you says, "can you clean and dress a wound," and you say, "no," well, yeah, you're not qualified.  You're not going to get the job.  I used to run an outdoorsy unit, and I would always ask things like "can you track," "do you know the lands around these parts?"  In RL, I worked for a wilderness survival school once, and we would interview staff members, and if they didn't know how to make and use a bow drill or construct a debre shelter they sure as hell weren't going to get the job.

[Hymwen]

I think it's fair to ask PC's if they have certain skills that are required for you to hire them. If you need a lock picked, it's fine to ask if someone can do that, and not hire them if they can't. There's no alternative choice.

But if it's something like (example) a Byn sergeant who only wants warriors, asking "can you move stealthily?" - "yes, I can" - "sorry, we can't hire anyone right now", that's not alright because for all the sergeant knows, it could be a warrior who had learned to sneak.

Sometimes guild sniffing is necessary if you need something that only one guild can provide (pick locks, cavilish, sandstorm navigation etc.) but doing it to see if the guard you're hiring is a warrior, or to find out what skill-set someone has to determine if you could beat them in a fight, that's uncool.

IMO

[Larrath]

First of all, sometimes there is a true need to know someone's main guild.  This happens if a leader has to send someone riding through a mild sandstorm - he better pick the Ranger unless he wants to invite disaster.

With that said, I abhor guild-sniffing.  When I played my second magicker (the first magicker having died the same day he was approved) I looked for work as an aide in order to be a sekret evil magicker.
So in the end I meet an employer who shall remain anonymous, and the employer asks me, his aide, if I can fight.  Reasonable question, and I say no.
Then he asks me if I speak Cavilish.  I say no, because I don't.
Are those legitimate questions?  Sure, they're not terribly contrived.  But they also really, really suck.
OOCly, I knew I can might as well give up on any hopes I've had to play a secret magicker that would use a major clan as his hideout.

In contrast, I once had a crafter in House Kadius, and he was a sekret magicker.  In fact, I always felt it was a little too obvious because he looked freakish and would just continually wipe sweat off of himself.
But nobody bothered him really - he was a stonecarver and he carved stones, and he carved them well.  He was active and helpful in his clan, met and made friends, and lived around 35 days before his own lack of caution got his caught.  It was generally understood by some people that he couldn't fight, and a couple others knew he didn't speak Cavilish, but the one player that could've taken these two things and put them together was courteous enough to avoid doing that.
The result?  My stonecarving magicker was one of my favorite and most memorable characters to date, and had some intense moments in spite of never reaching any amount of competence with any spells whatsoever.

Sure, maybe some magickers could come with unexpected skills, but let's face it and admit that these sort of magickers would be one out of twenty.  Cheap guild-sniffing keeps nineteen out of twenty magickers out of your clan, which, uh, helps you...win the...contest.
I would very much like to see more skills pop up and more subguilds to come around and to generally have more ways to hide magicker abilities.  The day I see a magicker successfully masquerade as a Bynner, I'll be happy.

If you interview to be a doctor and the dude interviewing you says, “can you clean and dress a wound,” and you say, "no," well, yeah, you're not qualified.

The problem is that guild-sniffers ask questions that have no real connection to the job they're supposed to do.  If you're hiring someone to be a high-paid scout, it's pretty silly to ask if they can find edible crickets in the sand if they get hungry -- they're about to get a high-paying job and won't need to eat crickets, but everyone knows that only rangers get to forage for food.
Qualification is fine - if your PC is going to work as a Merchant (not crafter), it's fine to be asked if you speak Cavilish because you would need to know the language in order to do your job well.  If you're going to work as a House Guard, people are going to ask if you can fight well - though asking if you know how to Disarm weapons could still be crossing the line a bit.
Asking a House Guard if he can tame wild animals and then running to a sandstorm to hide from their wrath after they say no - bad.

[Cenghiz]

Didn't read all.. But only logical explanation I can find is... Your employer needs someone who can pick locks and you cannot. Period. I don't know if he tried to sniff guilds or not and we cannot know, because if you need someone to pick a lock for you, you seek him. You ask the thieves if they can, because you need someone picking locks.

So, maybe he's not necessarily guilty of picking locks.. I have seen much more specific questions which were not guild sniffing..

Templar: "Can you <specific Drovian spell's description>?"
Me: "Yes Lord Templar, but I avoid using it in His City."
Templar: "Good.. Then I want something done."........

He was trying to sniff if I was 20-day-old drovian or 1 day-old? No.. He needed spell_X, so he asked if I had that spell. Similarly, maybe your employer needed the gate/door/wagon door X opened, so he asked if you can pick it for him. Don't be so paranoid

[gfair]

Is it just me, or do other people love when people post information on recent game events anonymously (as this person did), because they know the rules and don't want to ask the IMMs if their post is ok?

This is the type of post I'd like to see stop. I don't want to know what happened between you and your boss recently, even if you did do your best to hide and not be accountable for giving this information out without asking the IMMs first.

Send this to the Mud account, not the GDB. That way you don't have to worry about breaking the rules, or gleefully hope to do so.

[Nusku]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a guild_burglar has.

I'm seeing a lot of assumptions in this thread that are somewhere between wrong, absurd, and irritating. First of all, don't assume things about skilltrees. Just because you played a pick-pocket and never branched underwater basket weaving doesn't mean that they don't get it. It also doesn't exclude the possibility of special apps. I could apply for a pick-pocket that has Cavilish. Also, for the record, I personally played an upper class, well to do merchant that didn't speak Cavilish, so your assumptions are wrong on that level as well.

On topic, however. Asking someone if they can pick locks isn't a problem if what you want them to do is pick locks. If I have a locked door/chest/chastity belt that I don't have the key for, I'm going to find someone who can pick the lock for me. If you ask someone if they can pick locks because you want to know if they're a burglar or a warrior, you will die in a fire. Example number two, Cavilish. Asking someone if they speak Cavilish because you want them to be able to speak Cavilish is a-ok. Asking someone if they speak Cavilish because you want to know if they're guild_merchant will result in burnination.

See the difference?

[Jherlen]

I think the point being missed in my post was that the questions seemed to be targetted in order to separate somebody of one possible guild from another (i.e. tell a possible burglar apart from a pickpocket by finding out whether they can pick locks.) That's what I'm against and that's what other people seem to dislike too.

Certainly if you need a lock-picker or a cavilish-speaker or a weapon-disarmer, it's fine to ask if somebody can do that. But again, I'd define guild sniffing as trying to narrow down somebody's guild based on OOC knowledge of skills trees. The earlier example in the thread about asking the potential aide if he can fight, then asking if he speaks cavilish, is an example of this.... and it sucks. As Nusku said, tactics like this aren't foolproof, they don't account for special apps, etc... but then as Larrath already said (and I completely agree with), they work too well as it is. One or two especially sneaky or special guys may slip by, but you'll still catch the other eight out of ten.

I'm fully aware that some of the info posted in this thread about skills is incomplete. I knew when I was writing the example Nusku quoted that the skill may be given to more guilds... however, it's definitely one of the primary skills of a burglar, which makes the point valid. Whether other classes can branch a skill is something akin to whether non-guid_merchants can learn cavilish; they can, but almost every single non-guild_merchant is going to have that skill unless they had it removed or were special apped, so it's a good tell. My point was perhaps intentionally wrong (or incomplete), but I didn't mean it to be and don't think it was "absurd" or "irritating".

[jhunter]

While I think guild-sniffing tactics are -lame-, I don't really see what the big deal is either. Someone else knowing what guild you are, unless it's a mage guild, isn't going to change how your play your pc anyway.

[Sir Diealot]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

[Anonymous]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

Granted, but it really doesn't seem to ever come up that way with combat classes.  I was the 'victim' of guildsniffing only once that I can recall, and I put victim in quotes because my character still got hired.

It's most often that warrior/ranger/assassin/burglar/magicker types are trying to pass themselves off as merchants and if the person doing the hiring has played any of those classes before in addition to playing a merchant than they have some pretty simple questions to ask and then they can tell pretty quickly.

[jhunter (2l2)]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

I suppose, but if sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info, did you really want to be in the clan under sergeant A anyway?
And what's to stop warrior guild pcs when answering the same question to:

"Oh I sure can."

think It may take me a really long time and it's possible I won't make it, but it's possible I can do it also. Besides, I want this job, shit I'll tell him I can shoot bahamets out my butt if that's what he wants.

[Vesperas]

It's most often that warrior/ranger/assassin/burglar/magicker types are trying to pass themselves off as merchants and if the person doing the hiring has played any of those classes before in addition to playing a merchant than they have some pretty simple questions to ask and then they can tell pretty quickly.

Yeah, but what does it matter if they are guild warrior and trying to play a merchant?  There are innumerable reasons as to why a warrior-guilded PC may want a merchant job; and unless the clan has an IC reason of being particularly suspicious of merchants with just an unusual fighting ability, they really have no reason to turn them away (unless there are other special things coming into play, like the reputation for being a thief or liar or something).

If my PC, Psycopathic Pat, had a special vendetta against Merchant Pong, and she wanted to weasle her way into the ranks of the merchant house and gain the trust of her target and the power to get to him easily -- there should be no reason why that isn't possible.  I'd be rather upset if I was turned away for no more reason other than "She doesn't speak Cavilish," when in reality, most house employees don't anyway.  They're labor - they don't need to sell anything.  People who are of exceptional mind may move up and be TAUGHT Cavilish.


On an earlier topic in this post, I've played this Ambiguous Amos... I have to admit my guilt in this.  Sometimes this is the result of poor thinking and planning on my part, and I'm just looking for a hook to swing from with a generalized character.  Other times, I'm fishing for.. something else -- like information... or, I just plain don't want to be hired.  In any situation, I prefer it if the employer does what is IC for them to do.

[leaf]

Yeah, but what does it matter if they are guild warrior and trying to play a merchant?  There are innumerable reasons as to why a warrior-guilded PC may want a merchant job; and unless the clan has an IC reason of being particularly suspicious of merchants with just an unusual fighting ability, they really have no reason to turn them away (unless there are other special things coming into play, like the reputation for being a thief or liar or something).

But at what point does doing something like this become a question of role-play, too? While an assassin could be a dung-shoveller, there's a real hard-coded class for both warrior and merchant. Is there no suggestion that one's hard-coded class should in any small degree determine one's role-play?

If the idea behind being a warrior is that you have spent all your life working as and training to be a warrior, then shouldn't you play a warrior instead of a merchant? Just because you, the player, knows how to buy low and sell high should not necessarily mean that you, the warrior-guild character would, would it?

[Ava]

If the idea behind being a warrior is that you have spent all your life working as and training to be a warrior, then shouldn't you play a warrior instead of a merchant? Just because you, the player, knows how to buy low and sell high should not necessarily mean that you, the warrior-guild character would, would it?

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

Starting characters may show potential--Amos the Newbie Warrior is strong and quick--but (subguilds aside, perhaps) they don't have any experience.

[leaf]

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

The help files state:

"A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected."

and:

"There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting."

This still seems, to me, like it should influence the role-play of the person in some degree.  And, the idea of being a merchant, while having the guild "warrior" does not seem to be in concert.

[jhunter]

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

The help files state:

"A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected."

and:

"There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting."

This still seems, to me, like it should influence the role-play of the person in some degree.  And, the idea of being a merchant, while having the guild "warrior" does not seem to be in concert.

Actually, if you read the entire information on guilds:

Guilds in Armageddon are used in a completely informal sense, and should not be confused with the more formal arrangements made by persons within the world such as a Guild of Gladiators and should not be confused with Clans (q.v.). Armageddon's guilds are the equivalent of 'classes' in most role-playing games.

A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected. While there may be any number of "real" guilds, there are only a few which are ever dealt with in game terms (e.g. a guild of woodworkers might exist in the world, but players and "real" npcs will never belong to it).

There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways Some guilds are karma required; this means they are restricted to players who have demonstrated roleplay ability and responsibility. Such guilds are marked (karma required).

[leaf]

Actually, if you read the entire information on guilds:

Guilds in Armageddon are used in a completely informal sense, and should not be confused with the more formal arrangements made by persons within the world such as a Guild of Gladiators and should not be confused with Clans (q.v.). Armageddon's guilds are the equivalent of 'classes' in most role-playing games.

A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected. While there may be any number of "real" guilds, there are only a few which are ever dealt with in game terms (e.g. a guild of woodworkers might exist in the world, but players and "real" npcs will never belong to it).

There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways Some guilds are karma required; this means they are restricted to players who have demonstrated roleplay ability and responsibility. Such guilds are marked (karma required).

Actually, I did read that, and I guess I interpreted it differently.

I thought that saying that a guild could be played in different ways would range from, for example, caravan guard, vs. highwayman, vs. street thug, for the guild warrior.  If you expand this even further and say anything goes, how do you reconcile the original statement that followers of the guild "warrior" only follow the calling of fighting or perhaps to die fighting while being a merchant or a juggler or a pickpocket, for example?

[jhunter]

You can be a merchant that has lesser ability in that department than one who is guild merchant. But hey, you can defend yourself instead of hiring others to do it for you.
You can be a juggler that has a superior aptitude for combat but you prefer to make your money juggling and entertaining people.
You can be a person who prefers to pick pockets rather than fight but is much better at fighting than picking pockets.

*shrug*
The information on guilds in general sort of conflicts with that particular piece of the description of guild warrior. I would say that the description of guild warrior needs a rewrite for a few reasons. Some that have been brought up in the past regarding it. I don't believe it has really ever been the case that one's work or type of work they choose for their character has ever got to be determined by their skillset.

[Inklings]

I don't think that the OP's character's employer was guildsniffing. I DO think that the way the employer handled the situation was all wrong.

If the employer wanted to hire someone that could pick locks, why wasn't the character applying for the job asked if they could pick locks upon interview?

Why hire a character that can't do the jobs that you need them to do? Let's use this is an example.

Doctor Joe is looking to hire a nurse for his practice. Is he going to hire a contruction worker? A hotel manager? A seamstress? NO. He's going to hire a frickin' nurse. It doesn't make sense for Doctor Joe to hire a hotel manager or a construction worker to do a nurse's job, so why hire just to fire? OMGZ YOU AREN'T A NURSE GTFO ->

So, asking what a character does and expecting an honest answer during a job interview isn't guildsniffing either. That's not to say that the character being interviewed can't lie or play up some of his other coded skills, we have many of them, guilds and sub-guilds for a reason.

Firing a character because said employer didn't have the sense to ask those kinds of questions during the interview? Not so nice, but it happens.

& that's my two rupees. or whatever.