Guild Sniffing

[bloodfromstone]

Thieves and assassins (not talking about guilds) routinely break into homes. Are there those that don't? Of course there are. But there are plenty that do. If I've got a thief in my employ, that's a liability. Now if he's a really good thief (can break into homes) I might keep him around.

I never said that was unacceptable. Actually, it sounds like we're in agreement. If you want someone who can break locks, then it is more than okay to base your hiring/firing on whether or not they can. I see nothing wrong with that. That's not guild sniffing. That is asking about something you need done.

[spawnloser]

Seriously, every truly believes that noone in the game but burglars can get the skill pick?  How do you know a that a magicker can't get a weapon skill?  Why can't someone be a master crafter and have never learned Cavilish?

If you are an employer, stop knowing what everyone can do by their guild.  Stop caring what guild they are.

If you are an employed, stop trying to hide your guild but don't say what guild you are either.  Don't say, "Yes, I can pick peoples' pockets as well as break and enter."  Say, "Yeah, I can lift the occasional thing here or there."

In regards to what you know...I'm willing to bet, as was intimated by a staff member in a public manner on this very board, that what you think you know may very well be wrong about any number of things in the game.

[Aldiel]

No, I think it's legit.  If you interview to be a doctor and the dude interviewing you says, "can you clean and dress a wound," and you say, "no," well, yeah, you're not qualified.  You're not going to get the job.  I used to run an outdoorsy unit, and I would always ask things like "can you track," "do you know the lands around these parts?"  In RL, I worked for a wilderness survival school once, and we would interview staff members, and if they didn't know how to make and use a bow drill or construct a debre shelter they sure as hell weren't going to get the job.

[Hymwen]

I think it's fair to ask PC's if they have certain skills that are required for you to hire them. If you need a lock picked, it's fine to ask if someone can do that, and not hire them if they can't. There's no alternative choice.

But if it's something like (example) a Byn sergeant who only wants warriors, asking "can you move stealthily?" - "yes, I can" - "sorry, we can't hire anyone right now", that's not alright because for all the sergeant knows, it could be a warrior who had learned to sneak.

Sometimes guild sniffing is necessary if you need something that only one guild can provide (pick locks, cavilish, sandstorm navigation etc.) but doing it to see if the guard you're hiring is a warrior, or to find out what skill-set someone has to determine if you could beat them in a fight, that's uncool.

IMO

[Larrath]

First of all, sometimes there is a true need to know someone's main guild.  This happens if a leader has to send someone riding through a mild sandstorm - he better pick the Ranger unless he wants to invite disaster.

With that said, I abhor guild-sniffing.  When I played my second magicker (the first magicker having died the same day he was approved) I looked for work as an aide in order to be a sekret evil magicker.
So in the end I meet an employer who shall remain anonymous, and the employer asks me, his aide, if I can fight.  Reasonable question, and I say no.
Then he asks me if I speak Cavilish.  I say no, because I don't.
Are those legitimate questions?  Sure, they're not terribly contrived.  But they also really, really suck.
OOCly, I knew I can might as well give up on any hopes I've had to play a secret magicker that would use a major clan as his hideout.

In contrast, I once had a crafter in House Kadius, and he was a sekret magicker.  In fact, I always felt it was a little too obvious because he looked freakish and would just continually wipe sweat off of himself.
But nobody bothered him really - he was a stonecarver and he carved stones, and he carved them well.  He was active and helpful in his clan, met and made friends, and lived around 35 days before his own lack of caution got his caught.  It was generally understood by some people that he couldn't fight, and a couple others knew he didn't speak Cavilish, but the one player that could've taken these two things and put them together was courteous enough to avoid doing that.
The result?  My stonecarving magicker was one of my favorite and most memorable characters to date, and had some intense moments in spite of never reaching any amount of competence with any spells whatsoever.

Sure, maybe some magickers could come with unexpected skills, but let's face it and admit that these sort of magickers would be one out of twenty.  Cheap guild-sniffing keeps nineteen out of twenty magickers out of your clan, which, uh, helps you...win the...contest.
I would very much like to see more skills pop up and more subguilds to come around and to generally have more ways to hide magicker abilities.  The day I see a magicker successfully masquerade as a Bynner, I'll be happy.

If you interview to be a doctor and the dude interviewing you says, “can you clean and dress a wound,” and you say, "no," well, yeah, you're not qualified.

The problem is that guild-sniffers ask questions that have no real connection to the job they're supposed to do.  If you're hiring someone to be a high-paid scout, it's pretty silly to ask if they can find edible crickets in the sand if they get hungry -- they're about to get a high-paying job and won't need to eat crickets, but everyone knows that only rangers get to forage for food.
Qualification is fine - if your PC is going to work as a Merchant (not crafter), it's fine to be asked if you speak Cavilish because you would need to know the language in order to do your job well.  If you're going to work as a House Guard, people are going to ask if you can fight well - though asking if you know how to Disarm weapons could still be crossing the line a bit.
Asking a House Guard if he can tame wild animals and then running to a sandstorm to hide from their wrath after they say no - bad.

[Cenghiz]

Didn't read all.. But only logical explanation I can find is... Your employer needs someone who can pick locks and you cannot. Period. I don't know if he tried to sniff guilds or not and we cannot know, because if you need someone to pick a lock for you, you seek him. You ask the thieves if they can, because you need someone picking locks.

So, maybe he's not necessarily guilty of picking locks.. I have seen much more specific questions which were not guild sniffing..

Templar: "Can you <specific Drovian spell's description>?"
Me: "Yes Lord Templar, but I avoid using it in His City."
Templar: "Good.. Then I want something done."........

He was trying to sniff if I was 20-day-old drovian or 1 day-old? No.. He needed spell_X, so he asked if I had that spell. Similarly, maybe your employer needed the gate/door/wagon door X opened, so he asked if you can pick it for him. Don't be so paranoid

[gfair]

Is it just me, or do other people love when people post information on recent game events anonymously (as this person did), because they know the rules and don't want to ask the IMMs if their post is ok?

This is the type of post I'd like to see stop. I don't want to know what happened between you and your boss recently, even if you did do your best to hide and not be accountable for giving this information out without asking the IMMs first.

Send this to the Mud account, not the GDB. That way you don't have to worry about breaking the rules, or gleefully hope to do so.

[Nusku]

Simple. Cavilish is something all upper class, well to do merchants have. NOT something all good crafters have. Picking locks is definitely something a guild_burglar has.

I'm seeing a lot of assumptions in this thread that are somewhere between wrong, absurd, and irritating. First of all, don't assume things about skilltrees. Just because you played a pick-pocket and never branched underwater basket weaving doesn't mean that they don't get it. It also doesn't exclude the possibility of special apps. I could apply for a pick-pocket that has Cavilish. Also, for the record, I personally played an upper class, well to do merchant that didn't speak Cavilish, so your assumptions are wrong on that level as well.

On topic, however. Asking someone if they can pick locks isn't a problem if what you want them to do is pick locks. If I have a locked door/chest/chastity belt that I don't have the key for, I'm going to find someone who can pick the lock for me. If you ask someone if they can pick locks because you want to know if they're a burglar or a warrior, you will die in a fire. Example number two, Cavilish. Asking someone if they speak Cavilish because you want them to be able to speak Cavilish is a-ok. Asking someone if they speak Cavilish because you want to know if they're guild_merchant will result in burnination.

See the difference?

[Jherlen]

I think the point being missed in my post was that the questions seemed to be targetted in order to separate somebody of one possible guild from another (i.e. tell a possible burglar apart from a pickpocket by finding out whether they can pick locks.) That's what I'm against and that's what other people seem to dislike too.

Certainly if you need a lock-picker or a cavilish-speaker or a weapon-disarmer, it's fine to ask if somebody can do that. But again, I'd define guild sniffing as trying to narrow down somebody's guild based on OOC knowledge of skills trees. The earlier example in the thread about asking the potential aide if he can fight, then asking if he speaks cavilish, is an example of this.... and it sucks. As Nusku said, tactics like this aren't foolproof, they don't account for special apps, etc... but then as Larrath already said (and I completely agree with), they work too well as it is. One or two especially sneaky or special guys may slip by, but you'll still catch the other eight out of ten.

I'm fully aware that some of the info posted in this thread about skills is incomplete. I knew when I was writing the example Nusku quoted that the skill may be given to more guilds... however, it's definitely one of the primary skills of a burglar, which makes the point valid. Whether other classes can branch a skill is something akin to whether non-guid_merchants can learn cavilish; they can, but almost every single non-guild_merchant is going to have that skill unless they had it removed or were special apped, so it's a good tell. My point was perhaps intentionally wrong (or incomplete), but I didn't mean it to be and don't think it was "absurd" or "irritating".

[jhunter]

While I think guild-sniffing tactics are -lame-, I don't really see what the big deal is either. Someone else knowing what guild you are, unless it's a mage guild, isn't going to change how your play your pc anyway.

[Sir Diealot]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

[Anonymous]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

Granted, but it really doesn't seem to ever come up that way with combat classes.  I was the 'victim' of guildsniffing only once that I can recall, and I put victim in quotes because my character still got hired.

It's most often that warrior/ranger/assassin/burglar/magicker types are trying to pass themselves off as merchants and if the person doing the hiring has played any of those classes before in addition to playing a merchant than they have some pretty simple questions to ask and then they can tell pretty quickly.

[jhunter (2l2)]

Sergeant A decides that he -only- wants Guild_Warrior in his clan, because.. hey.. Guild_Warrior is ub3r.

Player B -is- guild_ranger.  BUT! Player B is going for being an awesome swordsman.  There is no IC reason why he can't get as good as Player C, who is guild_warrior, but sergeant A knows that rangers can't get as good with swords, codedly.

Sergeant A is interviewing player b.  He asks player b, "So, if you get caught in a sandstorm, can you walk home?"  player b, who is a ranger, whose background is that of a nomad says, "sure can!" sergeant A no longer wants player B, because sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info.

That is how guildsniffing is bad

I suppose, but if sergeant A is a prick who uses OOC info, did you really want to be in the clan under sergeant A anyway?
And what's to stop warrior guild pcs when answering the same question to:

"Oh I sure can."

think It may take me a really long time and it's possible I won't make it, but it's possible I can do it also. Besides, I want this job, shit I'll tell him I can shoot bahamets out my butt if that's what he wants.

[Vesperas]

It's most often that warrior/ranger/assassin/burglar/magicker types are trying to pass themselves off as merchants and if the person doing the hiring has played any of those classes before in addition to playing a merchant than they have some pretty simple questions to ask and then they can tell pretty quickly.

Yeah, but what does it matter if they are guild warrior and trying to play a merchant?  There are innumerable reasons as to why a warrior-guilded PC may want a merchant job; and unless the clan has an IC reason of being particularly suspicious of merchants with just an unusual fighting ability, they really have no reason to turn them away (unless there are other special things coming into play, like the reputation for being a thief or liar or something).

If my PC, Psycopathic Pat, had a special vendetta against Merchant Pong, and she wanted to weasle her way into the ranks of the merchant house and gain the trust of her target and the power to get to him easily -- there should be no reason why that isn't possible.  I'd be rather upset if I was turned away for no more reason other than "She doesn't speak Cavilish," when in reality, most house employees don't anyway.  They're labor - they don't need to sell anything.  People who are of exceptional mind may move up and be TAUGHT Cavilish.


On an earlier topic in this post, I've played this Ambiguous Amos... I have to admit my guilt in this.  Sometimes this is the result of poor thinking and planning on my part, and I'm just looking for a hook to swing from with a generalized character.  Other times, I'm fishing for.. something else -- like information... or, I just plain don't want to be hired.  In any situation, I prefer it if the employer does what is IC for them to do.

[leaf]

Yeah, but what does it matter if they are guild warrior and trying to play a merchant?  There are innumerable reasons as to why a warrior-guilded PC may want a merchant job; and unless the clan has an IC reason of being particularly suspicious of merchants with just an unusual fighting ability, they really have no reason to turn them away (unless there are other special things coming into play, like the reputation for being a thief or liar or something).

But at what point does doing something like this become a question of role-play, too? While an assassin could be a dung-shoveller, there's a real hard-coded class for both warrior and merchant. Is there no suggestion that one's hard-coded class should in any small degree determine one's role-play?

If the idea behind being a warrior is that you have spent all your life working as and training to be a warrior, then shouldn't you play a warrior instead of a merchant? Just because you, the player, knows how to buy low and sell high should not necessarily mean that you, the warrior-guild character would, would it?

[Ava]

If the idea behind being a warrior is that you have spent all your life working as and training to be a warrior, then shouldn't you play a warrior instead of a merchant? Just because you, the player, knows how to buy low and sell high should not necessarily mean that you, the warrior-guild character would, would it?

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

Starting characters may show potential--Amos the Newbie Warrior is strong and quick--but (subguilds aside, perhaps) they don't have any experience.

[leaf]

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

The help files state:

"A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected."

and:

"There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting."

This still seems, to me, like it should influence the role-play of the person in some degree.  And, the idea of being a merchant, while having the guild "warrior" does not seem to be in concert.

[jhunter]

Given how much newbie characters suck... ;-) It seems to me that guild is mostly an expression of aptitude, not experience.  If a thirty-year-old, 0-day warrior brags that he's spent all his life training, he's going to be mighty embarrassed when a twenty-year-old Byn trooper--who's actually trained for maybe one IG year--eats him for breakfast.  Same with the merchant skills, I would expect.

The help files state:

"A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected."

and:

"There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting."

This still seems, to me, like it should influence the role-play of the person in some degree.  And, the idea of being a merchant, while having the guild "warrior" does not seem to be in concert.

Actually, if you read the entire information on guilds:

Guilds in Armageddon are used in a completely informal sense, and should not be confused with the more formal arrangements made by persons within the world such as a Guild of Gladiators and should not be confused with Clans (q.v.). Armageddon's guilds are the equivalent of 'classes' in most role-playing games.

A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected. While there may be any number of "real" guilds, there are only a few which are ever dealt with in game terms (e.g. a guild of woodworkers might exist in the world, but players and "real" npcs will never belong to it).

There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways Some guilds are karma required; this means they are restricted to players who have demonstrated roleplay ability and responsibility. Such guilds are marked (karma required).

[leaf]

Actually, if you read the entire information on guilds:

Guilds in Armageddon are used in a completely informal sense, and should not be confused with the more formal arrangements made by persons within the world such as a Guild of Gladiators and should not be confused with Clans (q.v.). Armageddon's guilds are the equivalent of 'classes' in most role-playing games.

A guild is a term used to describe the lifestyle which a person has selected. While there may be any number of "real" guilds, there are only a few which are ever dealt with in game terms (e.g. a guild of woodworkers might exist in the world, but players and "real" npcs will never belong to it).

There are sixteen guilds at the present time, each with its own unique set of skills and abilities. Your guild does not directly determine your character's profession or role in the game; each guild can be played in a variety of different ways Some guilds are karma required; this means they are restricted to players who have demonstrated roleplay ability and responsibility. Such guilds are marked (karma required).

Actually, I did read that, and I guess I interpreted it differently.

I thought that saying that a guild could be played in different ways would range from, for example, caravan guard, vs. highwayman, vs. street thug, for the guild warrior.  If you expand this even further and say anything goes, how do you reconcile the original statement that followers of the guild "warrior" only follow the calling of fighting or perhaps to die fighting while being a merchant or a juggler or a pickpocket, for example?

[jhunter]

You can be a merchant that has lesser ability in that department than one who is guild merchant. But hey, you can defend yourself instead of hiring others to do it for you.
You can be a juggler that has a superior aptitude for combat but you prefer to make your money juggling and entertaining people.
You can be a person who prefers to pick pockets rather than fight but is much better at fighting than picking pockets.

*shrug*
The information on guilds in general sort of conflicts with that particular piece of the description of guild warrior. I would say that the description of guild warrior needs a rewrite for a few reasons. Some that have been brought up in the past regarding it. I don't believe it has really ever been the case that one's work or type of work they choose for their character has ever got to be determined by their skillset.

[Inklings]

I don't think that the OP's character's employer was guildsniffing. I DO think that the way the employer handled the situation was all wrong.

If the employer wanted to hire someone that could pick locks, why wasn't the character applying for the job asked if they could pick locks upon interview?

Why hire a character that can't do the jobs that you need them to do? Let's use this is an example.

Doctor Joe is looking to hire a nurse for his practice. Is he going to hire a contruction worker? A hotel manager? A seamstress? NO. He's going to hire a frickin' nurse. It doesn't make sense for Doctor Joe to hire a hotel manager or a construction worker to do a nurse's job, so why hire just to fire? OMGZ YOU AREN'T A NURSE GTFO ->

So, asking what a character does and expecting an honest answer during a job interview isn't guildsniffing either. That's not to say that the character being interviewed can't lie or play up some of his other coded skills, we have many of them, guilds and sub-guilds for a reason.

Firing a character because said employer didn't have the sense to ask those kinds of questions during the interview? Not so nice, but it happens.

& that's my two rupees. or whatever.