Below Average Stats

[Angela Christine]

It is about the fact that some people randomly are set at one extreme of with pathetic stats, while others are set to the other of godly.  The stats are totally random despite the characters potential or who they are as chosen by their background.  I think that the playing field should be evened slightly so that some people are not forced into inherit patheticness.  But maybe that's just me.  I'm sorry, I didn't realize everyone else liked being at a disadvantage, not being able to fight creatures with shells because their blows bounced off, or being surpassed in their clans by someone who just joined while they've been there a year because they have below average stats.  Yeah, I know all you guys love being set at an unfair disadvantage.   :roll:

The system may be unfair for particular characters (just like RL) but it is fair for all players.  One character you might get below average stats, the next might get fantastic stats, so over time it works out average for everyone.

If particular stats are important for the character concept, you can manipulate the odds a bit.  If you create a character who is young, short, and light they will probably have good agility but bad strength and endurance.  If you make her 30, of middle height and weight, then she will tend to be well rounded.  If you make her old, then she will probably have better wisdom but her physical stats will suffer.  It certainly doesn't guarantee getting what you want, but it does increase your odds.  If your stats still come out awful, you can always gamble on a reroll.


You are not your character.  Your character isn't even a person.  Things may not be fair for your character, but they are fair for you.


Angela Christine

[House Rising Sun]

This is the same as asking for the game to be easier to win.

Easier, at least.

[Wykydtronn]

I hate these arguments of stats...

Why? Because half the player base comes out with the same lame argument.
"Play a weak warrior, a stupid mage or a sickly ranger! Come on it will be fun! Role playing failure is fun! WEEEE! FUN!"  The reality is... its only fun to the other people who surpass your character in every way.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a strapping handsome warrior with the strength of a 19 men and the body of a god.  Why? Because we all log on for the same reason.  To be somebody else and play a role.  Honestly, I don't log on to play Mr weak half elf so that your character can beat on him in sparring.

I'm all in favor of poor or awesome stats, if only it where realistic.  The mind and body are fluid things, they aren't "stuck" at a certain potential or even a certain capacity.  Unless disease or deformity, but even then, a strong will can find ways around such problems.
Everyone is born weak, crying, and fleshy.

I always wished that stats and skills were tied together.  Honestly do we need stats that much? Why can't skills also represent the physical(or mental) capacity to be proficient in said task?

A sword master is not only skillful with a sword, such training brings with it endurance and strength.  It is only a natural progression of such a life style.

Just because some body wants to play the role of strong sword master, doesn't make them a bad role player.  Stop treating players who just want their characters to do well like their some type of evil twink.

And if you like playing those sickly weak stupid characters... more power to you.  But thats not everyones wish, nor does it make them bad role players because they don't want to play a role they don't like.

I've never played a merchant, pickpocket, or burglar?  Does that make me a bad role player? I believe I'm some where on my 10th character.  Should everyone be "required" to play a merchant? I mean the world is not filled with warriors and rangers.  Is it bad form to dislike the role that doesn't involve combat?

Think about it.  We all log on to be different people, to play different roles.  Why would anyone aspire to be mediocre in their virtual lives too?  Average people with average minds, and average bodies, with average skills don't really get into extraordinary situations.

I ramble.  I've never had to deal with my stats, in fact I try not to give them a second look over.  Luckily I've never felt the need to email the mud with logs of my training.  I can only speculate how hard it is to get stats change for the better.

[Hymwen]

I don't know if I like the thought of removing lower range stats. It would be weird if everyone in the whole world was average or better at everything. Stat ordering would be good, but I'd prefer if it's one or maybe two stats that you can order, so that you can't completely tailor your character, but can still avoid the "huge, muscular man with poor strength" syndrome. Something that would be awesome was if we could write our descs after seeing our stats, but I don't really see a way for this to be possible, both code-wise and because people would abuse it to hunt stats if they could see them before entering the game.

I do agree that getting a character with poor-poor-below avg-poor sucks. Not that I've tried, but unless your goal is purely social-rp with no fighting or otherwise coded ability, having pathetic stats will be very detrimental for the enjoyment of the player. Some people may like to have some flaw that they can use as a character trait, but in a game with permadeath and great danger lurking around every corner, I can see why people with truly rubbish stats feel that it's unfair. Maybe make it so that you'll never get more than one or maybe two poor stats?

As for the "very poor" stat - as far as I've been told, it used to exist, but was merged with "poor", so that it's now just a larger range.

[grog]

As for the "very poor" stat - as far as I've been told, it used to exist, but was merged with "poor", so that it's now just a larger range.

That's what I thought too, but according to Halaster there is a problem somewhere in that statement.   Maybe it was the "Because players complained part"

[Majikal]

I like the stats just the way they are but I must say that the idea of ordering stats is gonna get you the same result everytime.. it'll make all guilds more uniform and I dislike that. all assasins, pickpockets and burglars are gonna pick agility.. all warriors are gonna pick strength.. all those who are magickers would pick wisdom.. I'm sure there are a few exceptions but it's gonna limit the diversity of the playerbase.

[Bebop]

I hate these arguments of stats...

Why? Because half the player base comes out with the same lame argument.
"Play a weak warrior, a stupid mage or a sickly ranger! Come on it will be fun! Role playing failure is fun! WEEEE! FUN!"  The reality is... its only fun to the other people who surpass your character in every way.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a strapping handsome warrior with the strength of a 19 men and the body of a god.  Why? Because we all log on for the same reason.  To be somebody else and play a role.  Honestly, I don't log on to play Mr weak half elf so that your character can beat on him in sparring.

Just because some body wants to play the role of strong sword master, doesn't make them a bad role player.  Stop treating players who just want their characters to do well like their some type of evil twink.

And if you like playing those sickly weak stupid characters... more power to you.  But thats not everyones wish, nor does it make them bad role players because they don't want to play a role they don't like.

I've never played a merchant, pickpocket, or burglar?  Does that make me a bad role player? I believe I'm some where on my 10th character.  Should everyone be "required" to play a merchant? I mean the world is not filled with warriors and rangers.  Is it bad form to dislike the role that doesn't involve combat?

Think about it.  We all log on to be different people, to play different roles.  Why would anyone aspire to be mediocre in their virtual lives too?  Average people with average minds, and average bodies, with average skills don't really get into extraordinary situations.

Freaking exactly. Even average can be a hinderance.  That is the only thing I'm saying is that people should not be forced to start out two steps back as far as their stats go with below average.  You can still enjoy the player sure but you are going to be hindered for the duration of that character while other surpass you.  Average, is average.  It has nothing to do with fancy numbers.  I say keep the stats how they are just eliminate the possibility of being weak, stupid, frail and slow.  It's not fair to start some people off with that kind of inherent disadvantage.  And it's a LARGE disadvantage, not a tiny one.

:roll: And I love how one player made the comment that if you want to have good stats you are power gaming.  Hrm, well I'll make sure to kill the next character that has kick ass.  Just because you want to have a successful, heroic character, doesn't mean you're power gaming.  It means that's the kind of escape you enjoy finding in the game.  It's a story, create who you want to, in the world there are so many people with so many ideals and I think that people need to be open minded in this game a little more just because the majority of people in Zalanthas societies appear to act and believe a certain way doesn't mean they actually do and it doesn't mean all people do.  

Once again, I would like to reiterate, this isn't about kick ass stats.  It's about AVERAGE stats and an even playing field.  Zalanthas isn't real life it's a game, and many of us play to make our mark, pursue stories and goals.  Even if you wish to play someone who is not successful you have that option whether your stats are good or bad to ignore good stats.  People that get nerfed randomly with bad stats while their skills are already hindered do to guild, do not have the option to ignore their bad stats if they wish to be mighty and successful, they only have the option to struggle harder then other players and their PCs based on blind luck.  Stats do not deviate the characters coded background and it shouldn't because then we would be losing the creation of our characters.  The people that do yearn to be successful and enjoy an adventerous life in Zalanthas should at least be able to start evenly at an average stat at the very least, and not two steps back, just to the roll of a dice.  It's a game it's about enjoyment not some fundamental zealous ideal that you're going to have to suck, tough luck.  At least that's my take on it.

[spawnloser]

You do know that if they take out the descriptors called 'below average' and 'poor' that the numeric ranges and the effects of those numerics will remain the same, right?

If you're arguing that minimum stats for all races to be raised so that you can't get a below average, what fun is that?  Seriously, we're not all playing supermen/women.  We're playing realistic chracters that sometimes have things about them that truly suck.

Deal with it.

[Maybe42or54]

Some people want to play weak characters, some want to play heroic. I don't really care sometimes, but if you want those specific stats, special app. I'm sure the imms would help you out.

[BlackStabbath]

I don't know if I'd like that too much.

Granted, I'm on my first character with the game, so my knowledge of how much stats affect one might be off. But I got a few stats that seemed really off for what I had in mind. Luckily, I didn't write anything in my background to describe my character as good with a stat, and now I'm playing the character off of them without any hurt going into the story I wrote up and having a blast!

As an example... So maybe a warrior with dreams of heroism gets a below average str, and a high wisdom... Instead of making him this huge field warrior, perhaps seek a position in military intelligence in which his heroics may be carved through his mind?

Maybe your acrobat comes with below average agility and a decent strength?  Getting off the ground to do those tumbles and twirls is a cinch, but now, because of that agility, she can never land right, tends to let go of that baton and kill Lord Richguy at just the wrong moment.

So many opportunities, and when it's all over... "That was fun, and those stats opened the way!"

[Empress]

I agree with Jherlen.  Below Average stats only suck compared to somebody with really good stats.  If Good was the highest stat in the game then Below Average wouldn't seem so bad anymore.  Making Average the worst stat won't really change anything because it will still suck compared to somebody with really good stats.  You (Bebop) might be happy with the change, but somebody else will come along one day and say that the Average stat is too low because they suck compared to their friend who has killer stats.  It's sooooo unfair!  :lol:

I know it's crappy to be put at a disadvantage because your stats are lower than the people you play with, but the diversity is a good thing I think.  Making Average the new bottom won't really solve anything because the range will still be great and some other player somewhere will complain about it one day, and making everybody start on an even playing field stat wise won't really make things fair either, because some people have more time to play than others, or are better "power gamers" than others.  Heros in real life arn't usually the strongest, fastest, or smartest people (except maybe in sports), it's usually something else.  I don't think good stats will help anybody become a hero, it just might help you spar better for the first little bit.

I personally wouldn't mind an option that lets you pick a focus stat and have your highest roll go there, and then the rest get placed randomly like before.  Or make stats invisible so everybody can stop worrying about them    One thing i've kinda noticed about this game is it's not a game of heros.  Heros and villains are few and far between, it takes the right player playing the right role at the right time, and when that happens the stats really don't matter!  Sure, 90% of the players try to become heros, but a very small % actually do.  This is a good thing too I think, because some of the other games i've tried my friends bring me around and get me up to level 30 in 2 days and all my gear is glowing by the end.  I'll usually stop playing after day 5 because it gets boring.  This game is fun because I keep trying to do things and while I usually fail at it, I at least learn something in the process.  Hope that made sense     :shock:

[Hymwen]

While I'm all for random stats to a degree, the problem to me is that poor stats vs. great stats will cause the poor PC to, unless they wanted to play like that, have less fun. Well, in some/most cases, that is. There's people who like to play flaws, but if you take two people with identical goals (let's say they want to become arena champions) and one has poor endurance while the other has absolutely incredible, that's like a 40-50 health difference, which will have a huge impact. When you come out with crappy stats on a character that needs stats a lot (mainly rangers and warriors, really) you will almost certainly have a shorter life than someone with decent or good stats, and that'll take away some enjoyment of playing that character. It's a tough problem, because letting characters completely control their stats will lead to a lot of perfectly tailored PCs and very few "flawed" PCs, but I think that there are ways to get around this, some of which have already been mentioned and some are on the way into the game.

[ThirdEye]

*sigh* This thread has made me feel terrible about my fresh chars stats. I have never actually rolled 'good' stats :/

[Morfeus]

As ThirdEye said... I am in a long long string of poor and below average stats too. I don't really mind that. But I can imagine how happy I will be to see something better than above average in my stat. If we don't have poor or below average, my happiness would not be that great.

[Nao]

While I'm all for random stats to a degree, the problem to me is that poor stats vs. great stats will cause the poor PC to, unless they wanted to play like that, have less fun. Well, in some/most cases, that is. There's people who like to play flaws, but if you take two people with identical goals (let's say they want to become arena champions) and one has poor endurance while the other has absolutely incredible, that's like a 40-50 health difference, which will have a huge impact. When you come out with crappy stats on a character that needs stats a lot (mainly rangers and warriors, really) you will almost certainly have a shorter life than someone with decent or good stats, and that'll take away some enjoyment of playing that character. It's a tough problem, because letting characters completely control their stats will lead to a lot of perfectly tailored PCs and very few "flawed" PCs, but I think that there are ways to get around this, some of which have already been mentioned and some are on the way into the game.

Why does everyone keep saying they're gonna be less fun?
Even with a combat char with bad stats, you're gonna beat the newbies of the same class within a  few days of play time. Also, thre seems to be a strong inverse correlation between good stats and character life span - the better the stats, the shorter you tend to live...

Really though, even poor stats don't make you get insta-killed, with a few days more play time you'll get to the same point as everbody else.

The only type of character that would really achive their goals slower are purely unclanned otuside-characters, because from my experience, people in clans rarely  look at battle strength when it comes to advancng within the clan, but at the way your character does otherwise, it depends more on the part of the game that is roleplayed out than on code (not on how they like the way you play oocly, but do you play a buff guy, a troublemaker, the born leader or..?). So this isn't really about chievement either.

Your agi is low but you want to play an acrobat? Suck it up, just roleplay it out, as long as you can't prioritize stats you shouldn't need to overthrow your whole concept just because one of the random stats didn't fit that well.
Low wisdom? I see wisdom as tha ability to learn, which is just muscle memory in a lot of cases, so maybe your character is a sow learner but not an idiot, so no need to play out a moron just because you got below average wisdom, either.

The stat priorization at character creation is coming in, so that should solve some of these issues - also, if you absolutely NEED one stat higher than another, you can always roleplay out some training and send in the logs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have to say that I would be disappointed to see the current numbers-behind-the-screen change. I like the current range. Stat ordering will help many situations where stats don't fit with the character.

When using the new system, be certian to include the concept of a flaw in your character. We all have flaws. For instance, in real life, I have absolutely incredible agility, average strength, below average endurance, and extremely good wisdom. If you think seriously about where your character's flaws are going to be, rather than what will be best for your powergaming, and then place those flaws in order with the stat ordering system, you'll be a-ok with your rolls.

Never create a character without a potential flaw, and you'll never have to deal with the problem you have brought up, not with the stat ordering system.

[moab]

The only possible change that makes sense is for the stats themselves to be completely hidden from us.

The disad is now I woul not know if I was faster/slower than the average joe of my race.

I currently play a char with a "poor" and "very poor" and one "exceptional" and I'm doing well.

Let go of the fear.  :-D

[Halaster]

You know they used to have a very poor, but they took it out because too many people complained when they got a very poor stat.    I'm sure the level of strength still exists, they just made it say poor instead.

No we didn't.

You mean you actually took it entirely?  I loved very poor!

No, I mean we never took it away.  You can get a very poor stat in certain situations.  Not sure why you think we took it away.  And I don't think we're going to take it away, either.

[Aldiel]

I actually wish bad stats were more common.  My arm friends are always telling me, oh, dude, I roled an AI.  Man, AI should be Absolutely Incredibly rare and average should be average.

[mansa]

My current character has two poor stats, and one below average.  Also, my character's fast becoming my favourite character of all time.

[Agent_137]

i don't care about poor stats because they don't matter.

if I'm a ranger/archer and I can't pull a bow, well, I'll talk to the immortals and maybe get some stats swapped.

Otherwise, if it isn't -central- to your character concept (and you shouldn't be building concepts around stats anyway, since you know it's random!!!), then what's it matter? As Delirium said, "it gives you an immediate hook/weakness to RP off of."

plus, they're working on giving us stat ordering, anyway. That will suit all your min/maxing needs.

[spawnloser]

plus, they're working on giving us stat ordering, anyway. That will suit all your min/maxing needs.

Wow, trolling much, Agent?  Seriously, some people want a ranger that can pull a bow...a warrior that can wear armor without having to crawl or pause for a breather every 50 cords.

This is not a discussion about your opposition to stat ordering.  Go find or make the right thread for that.

As far as playing with the ranges of stats goes (something that's on topic), things seem fine to me.  Three of my five longest lived characters have all had a poor stat.  My longest lived of all time was one of those, and was tremendous fun.

Sure, those characters have certain things they're not so good at.  Whatever.  That's realistic.  This is no epic fantasy game we play, but even in those epic fantasy stories, was any ever perfect in every way?  Didn't they all have a flaw or so?  Something they couldn't do well, so found someone else to help them do it or just do it for them?

I still say deal with it.

[Irulan]

You know, another solution to this problem is to make the stats hidden. Stats are pretty much the only thing that is visible as relation to our skills and such. I'm not necessarily saying that I want them hidden, but it would be another solution to this issue. People seem to focus so much on stats, that sometimes they miss the whole picture of the character. If you didn't know that your character had below average wisdom because it wasn't in 'score' would you ever really know the difference? I like knowing what my stats are as much as the next guy, but I don't think it would change anything about the character that I was about to play if I didn't know, because I don't base my characters on what their stats could potentially be. Hummm, just a thought.

-Irulan

[jhunter]

I would agree to making stats hidden, except that seeing them does help one rp the statistical strengths and weaknesses of their pc.
I've had pcs with low endurance and rp'ed them getting tired much faster doing things that would be strenuous that don't codedly take away stamina. I've rp'ed having trouble with things that take strength realistically, even though there was nothing coded to back it up. Same with agi...and especially with the wisdom score..

Knowing that my pc learns codedly slower or faster helps my rp of the pc immensely. If my pc has a low wisdom score I'll sometimes have them mess things up that I OOCly know the correct/best way to do it. I'll sometimes have them do foolish things because codedly they "aren't the coldest beer in the fridge".

[da mitey warrior]

Hiding your stats is a great idea.  Way too much grief goes on because of stats.  Stats don't matter.  Except in a few cases (mages who don't have 50 mana points, rangers who can't use bows) stats are a very minor point.

Stats don't matter.  Skills dominate stats.  Your character is badass or not based on your roleplay and/or your skills.

You shouldn't be building concepts around stats anyway, since you know it's random!

Quoted for truth.