Below Average Stats

[Bebop]

Sure, those characters have certain things they're not so good at.  Whatever.  That's realistic.  This is no epic fantasy game we play, but even in those epic fantasy stories, was any ever perfect in every way?  Didn't they all have a flaw or so?  Something they couldn't do well, so found someone else to help them do it or just do it for them?

I still say deal with it.

It's not an epic fantasy game?  Damn!  And I thought this was about fun.  Why don't we just implement high fees for gas for our kanks, a starbucks on every corner and cubicles for House jobs, like in Borsail or Winrothol all the employees will sit in the cubicles until a slaving job is assigned and the Serjeants can where corn flower blue.

It -is- a freaking fantasy game.  Jesus Christ.  It's not about having a shitty character, it's about drama and fun, like reading a good book.  And if some of us didn't have aspirations to be great then where would the game be?  Without a plot that's where.  What about Sujaal A'jinn Academy, what about streets named after PCs and the Byn things like that, that were done IG.  The game is about fun, it's not some suck it up for realism thing.  You should be able to enjoy yourself without getting sent a gizzillion steps back because a random roll decides that you are going to suck in one or more areas.  I don't think you all realize just how huge a gap there is.  

But that's fine really, since all of the sudden, everyone lurves their shitty stats, and this is not a fantasy game, and it's fun to play shitty characters with no goals.  This is such BS and I think most of you are missing the entire point of this post, seeing it as a way to up into great stats.  Do you all realize that even average is not that great?  I have played characters with average wisdom and other average stats and sometimes it is very close to below average, but at least it is decent, and below average sometimes you only take off one HP per hit and you will always be that weak and of course not be able to carry much and if you're a ranger good luck with a bow!  That combined with this idea of stamina reduction good luck killing anything for awhile, especially if you're indy (before you get exhausted).  Oh but that's right, if you want to be indy to bad just suck it up and join a clan!    This game isn't about sucking it up and doing one thing or the other at the sacrifice of your enjoyment, it's about creating a character that you will enjoy and a story to go along with that.  

Some of you guys aren't looking at the idea in a realistic way.  An IMM immediately cuts the line on my idea without reason and all of the sudden everyone enjoys having crappy stats.  Cheers.

[mansa]

Bebop,

I say that almost every character who has a street named after them had poor stats.  And did almost everything that made them famous -without- a coded benefit.

[flurry]

Hiding your stats is a great idea.  Way too much grief goes on because of stats.  Stats don't matter.  Except in a few cases (mages who don't have 50 mana points, rangers who can't use bows) stats are a very minor point.

I don't know.  Seeing stats helps give a feel for the character, I find.  It contributes to roleplay.  I'd be disappointed if they were hidden.

[da mitey warrior]

Perhaps the players who played Sujaal, and ones who had streets named after them should post their character's stats.  Was it their stats which made them famous?  I think we should test this.

[Nao]

I really don't see how one oor stat makes a character crappy or completely ruins all the fun when it doesn't have much of an influence 90% of the time.

And I'm pretty sure that there are more bows currently in game for average strength and below than for high strength - that ranger with str along the lines of average or above average had trouble finding a bow that wasn't too weak for her.

[Bebop]

Bebop,

I say that almost every character who has a street named after them had poor stats.  And did almost everything that made them famous -without- a coded benefit.

Mansa, I'm guessing that you're just guessing but something tells me that people like Sujaal that were so badass, did not having crappy stats.  And most people that I have seen that are in leadership roles that do well don't have crappy stats because I have seen them with there bows and what strengths there bows are or the gear they wear.

[RunningMountain]

Eldor had exceptional strength.

[Bebop]

Perhaps the players who played Sujaal, and ones who had streets named after them should post their character's stats.  Was it their stats which made them famous?  I think we should test this.

You know what... I agree.  That character was around a long long time ago. It wouldn't matter now.  I'm curious.  If Sujaal had shitty stats, then I will shut right up.  But I think I'm right.

[Many Faces]

Eldor had exceptional strength.

Who?

Shitty stat'd characters rule because it forces the player to think... something it seems the playerbase is trying to get away from.

Just my 2 silt pearls.

[Malken]

My favorite character of all time had exceptional agility. If he didn't have exceptional agility, I probably wouldn't have been able to do most of the things I was able to, thanks to the stat.

Bebop, you are fighting a losing battle.. Too many people here (mostly always the same ones, tho) will gladly shout that their favorite characters all had shitty stats, for some reasons.. The thing is, tho, that most of these people probably prefers to play a social role more than a role that are connected to stats.

It doesn't matter if you have poor stats, if you mostly enjoy playing nobles.

Another thing, of why you can't win the debate of why good stats are important to your 'fun' factor, is that you'll probably always look better if you proclaim that you prefer social roles rather than ones that requires a lot of coded actions.

Especially when they know that an IMM is reading the thread.

[Maybe42or54]

MY favorite Pc had awesome Stats. So awesome, I could swing a life-zied halfling club around.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In Bebop's defense, I think that many of you folks who like the idea of random and hidden because we're 'focused too much on our stats' are really judging when you shouldn't be.

I am not conceited, but I know that I am a decent roleplayer, even excellent to some folks, by their own words, not my perceptions. I immerse myself in my character to the utmost extent that any sane person would. I play with the world around me, with the PCs around me when I should, and bring the world to life as I think it should be done. I think often, contribute to the coded world on occassion, and so forth and so on.

But I am extremely interested in my stats. Does it mean that I would suicide a character without the stats that I need? No. But it does mean that when I create a hulking PC (and don't tell me that it's bad form to do so ... I don't care what you think about it, some people just look tough or strong, and believe it or not, they often are tough or strong) and I get below strength, that I am disappointed.  Sure, I'll play him with a 'back problem' or a 'hernia' or 'bad legs' or whatever. But I'm not happy about it.

So, I consider myself a good roleplayer with a talent for bringing the world to life, and yet at the same time, I care deeply about stats. I would pitch a flaming fit if they were hidden. I mean, I would really pitch a fucking fit. So, are you then telling me that, because I care about my stats, I am possibly missing the big picture of my character?

Seriously, getting upset because someone wants their stats to match their character concept and then accusing them of potentially being unable to grasp their character seems judgemental at best to me.

On the other side of the coin, Bebop, there has to be a below average and a poor. Without these, there is no average, and without average, there is no higher stat. For the now, until stat ordering comes along, I say just deal with it as a fluke of bad luck for the character, or, if it seriously clashs with your character, petition the Staff to help you in regards to this problem. They are not as hateful about stat changes and adjustments as many make them out to be.

I know that's not really what you want to hear, but your proposition isn't what I want to hear either.

[Aldiel]

Venoms, I agree with you.   Well stated.

Let me also add that I've had some pretty incredible characters with some below average stats.  And some of them have had below average wisdom.

Edit: My favorite, most badass character had below average wisdom.

[da mitey warrior]

Another thing, of why you can't win the debate of why good stats are important to your 'fun' factor, is that you'll probably always look better if you proclaim that you prefer social roles rather than ones that requires a lot of coded actions.

I think you're missing the point.  It's not that you don't need to do coded things, it's that skills matter for coded things more than stats do.

All evidence is that for most non-karma races stats fall in the traditional DnD range (8-18 +/- racial bonuses).

While skills range from 1-100, depending on your guild's skill cap. (people who were around when skill %s were visable might want to verify this)

And it seems pretty clear (especially from some of the helpfiles) that the chance to succeed in most coded actions is stat + skill.  

Like in combat your ToHit chance is agi + offense + weapon skill + other factors and random numbers.  

The 10 point variation in stats pales in comparison to the 200 point variation in skills.  

So if you have blah stats it does not really matter, with a few exceptions (like strength checks on weapons/bows and magicker mana points).   Skills matter, stats don't.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Code Select Expand

> get body
You strain as you lift Halaster's body.

> You deftly avoid Xygax's slash.
You deftly avoid Xygax's slash.

>w
 You are too tired.



>inv
You are carrying:
   Nothing.

> get twig all
You get a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.
You cannot carry a broken twig.

>cast 'mcdonald sweet sweet ice tea' me
You do not have enough mana.

The point?

Stats do matter. Saying that they don't is incorrect. It seems close-minded to disqualify somebody's argument that stats are important to them and their character.

Skills do matter more in the long run of the game when it comes to coded actions like crafting and blah blah blah. But stats do and always will matter. They are as integeral a part of the game as skills are. They are called upon when a skill doesn't matter.

Skills and stats do matter.

[Ava]

Just as an obfuscating side note:

What I think Bebop is suggesting is the following: roll each stat on its current range, with whatever probability distribution is coded.  If the result is less than "average," clamp it up to average anyway.  The result is not a shift of the whole stat distribution; it's a spike in the number of average stats.  This is different from what some people seem to be implying; namely, make the minimum stat "average" and shift the whole probability distribution, making, like, "really good" the new real average.

For whatever this newbie's opinion is worth, I think the former approach would be beneficial...leaving the high stats as rare as presently, but fudging up the poor ones.  Yes, this increases the real average, but not by near as much as some folks seem to be implying, and it leaves the median unchanged.

Staff People, I don't need to know the answer to this-- but is the stat distribution uniform or, like, Gaussian?  In real life, I'd expect the latter, but I'm kind of suspecting that the former is the case on Arm: it's the easiest to code and understand, and it results in a much bigger likelihood of getting multiple Really Bad (or good) stats.

[Morgenes]

Staff People, I don't need to know the answer to this-- but is the stat distribution uniform or, like, Gaussian?  In real life, I'd expect the latter, but I'm kind of suspecting that the former is the case on Arm: it's the easiest to code and understand, and it results in a much bigger likelihood of getting multiple Really Bad (or good) stats.

Gaussian, as much as a random number generator can provide.

[Empress]

It -is- a freaking fantasy game.  Jesus Christ.  It's not about having a shitty character, it's about drama and fun, like reading a good book.  And if some of us didn't have aspirations to be great then where would the game be?  Without a plot that's where.  What about Sujaal A'jinn Academy, what about streets named after PCs and the Byn things like that, that were done IG.  The game is about fun, it's not some suck it up for realism thing.  You should be able to enjoy yourself without getting sent a gizzillion steps back because a random roll decides that you are going to suck in one or more areas.  I don't think you all realize just how huge a gap there is.  

But that's fine really, since all of the sudden, everyone lurves their shitty stats, and this is not a fantasy game, and it's fun to play shitty characters with no goals.  This is such BS and I think most of you are missing the entire point of this post, seeing it as a way to up into great stats.  Do you all realize that even average is not that great?  I have played characters with average wisdom and other average stats and sometimes it is very close to below average, but at least it is decent, and below average sometimes you only take off one HP per hit and you will always be that weak and of course not be able to carry much and if you're a ranger good luck with a bow!  That combined with this idea of stamina reduction good luck killing anything for awhile, especially if you're indy (before you get exhausted).  Oh but that's right, if you want to be indy to bad just suck it up and join a clan!    This game isn't about sucking it up and doing one thing or the other at the sacrifice of your enjoyment, it's about creating a character that you will enjoy and a story to go along with that.  

Some of you guys aren't looking at the idea in a realistic way.  An IMM immediately cuts the line on my idea without reason and all of the sudden everyone enjoys having crappy stats.  Cheers.

Hey Bebop, I can tell you're getting upset because people are trashing your ideas which have a very valid point.  I still think you're placing too much importance on stats when it comes to the enjoyment of your character.  Yes stats do matter to some degree, and it will make it harder to do the things you want to do if you have crappy stats, but it doesn't make it impossible.  I agree 100% that this is a game first and foremost and we're all here for our own enjoyment, and most of us despite some of the responses in this thread aspire towards some degree of greatness in whataver it is our characters do, whether it be becoming the greatest warrior in the lands, or being the best dressed commoner in the tavern.  Stats can help or hinder your path to obtaining your character's goals. but I still don't think it makes it impossible.  Heros of the game like this Sujal may or may not have had good stats, but their greatness was not dependant on them.

You're right, it's a "freaking fantasy game", and not about having a shitty character, but is a character with not so great stats automatically a shitty character?  It might be harder to do what you want to do, but it's still possible.  Yes there are street names named after PCs who have achieved greatness, but it is not very common because getting there is hard to do.  I think making it so tough is a good thing too, because if it was relatively easy thing to do becoming the next great warrior and having an academy named after you, then there would be academies popping up all over and suddenly it won't be so special anymore.  Making it tough doesn't make it impossible, just keep trying and one day you might get there and it'll be awesome.  If it wasn't such a challenge, and 2 out of 3 of your characters could get there, then you'll probably get bored of the game pretty quick because you would have done all there is to do with only a few characters.

I guess all i'm trying to say is to not let your character's stats dictate the enjoyment you feel you can have with a character.  If you create a concept that you're proud of, and it ends up having crappy stats, don't automatically think "Oh, this guy will never amount to anything anymore".  Go and try to become the next Sujal and use your limitations to help develop that character.  They are what will make this character different from the next one you play.  

Anyways, i'm not saying your ideas are good ideas or bad ideas.  Your ideas have a lot of good points, but there are also a lot of good points as to why there should be a wide gap between stats.  Changing it one way or another will make some happy and other upset.  I just hope you can see that you can still do all the things your want to do whether you have good stats or not.

[Dakurus]

It's not so widely known that we use a slightly more convuluted form of the nethack character generation engine. This means that things like the current RL day when you generate your character, the name of your character (converted to a number and the check digit derived), and what you ate for lunch are taken into account, and help decide the end result.

[Coat of Arms]

This means that things like the current RL day when you generate your character, the name of your character (converted to a number and the check digit derived), and what you ate for lunch are taken into account, and help decide the end result.

I must have eaten the right thing for lunch when I made my current character... g/eg/g/ex

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's not so widely known that we use a slightly more convuluted form of the nethack character generation engine. This means that things like the current RL day when you generate your character, the name of your character (converted to a number and the check digit derived), and what you ate for lunch are taken into account, and help decide the end result.

Are you being serious? If you are, that is ... like ... really cool.

[Synthesis]

The Gaussian distribution is just another name for the normal distribution.

I think what you meant was normal or exponential, since exponential distributions have a high frequency of low values and low frequency of very high values.  With an exponential distribution, the median score is significantly lower than the mean score, due to the presence of a relatively high number of very extreme high scores.

However, the Largest Extreme Value distribution follows a similar pattern, except for the presence of a "stubby" tail on the low-value side and somewhat more subdued high-value extremes.

[DorianGarrick]

Immediately after getting two below averages in agility and strength for a character, even after a reroll, I suicided him. It pretty much killed any desire I had to play that character, especially knowing that he would never amount to shit as a warrior.

Quite frankly, the stat system is asinine and should be changed drastically to fit a more logical system that doesn't rely on a pure gamble. It pisses me off to know that someone can get a couple AIs while I get stuck with BAs.

[Hymwen]

Immediately after getting two below averages in agility and strength for a character, even after a reroll, I suicided him. It pretty much killed any desire I had to play that character, especially knowing that he would never amount to shit as a warrior.

While I understand your frustration, I'm pretty sure suiciding a character because of stats is very frowned-upon by the powers that be.

[Medena]

Sure, those characters have certain things they're not so good at.  Whatever.  That's realistic.  This is no epic fantasy game we play, but even in those epic fantasy stories, was any ever perfect in every way?

It's not an epic fantasy game?  Damn!  And I thought this was about fun.  Why don't we just implement high fees for gas for our kanks, a starbucks on every corner and cubicles for House jobs, like in Borsail or Winrothol all the employees will sit in the cubicles until a slaving job is assigned and the Serjeants can where corn flower blue.

It -is- a freaking fantasy game.  Jesus Christ.  It's not about having a shitty character, it's about drama and fun, like reading a good book.

Far be it from me to speak for spawnloser, but what I interpreted from his point was more emphasis on the "epic" part rather than on the "fantasy" part to which you reacted so vigorously.  I don't think anyone would deny that Arm is a fantasy game. But epic -- as in dealing with heroes possessed of incredible prowess who accomplish super-human feats against evil foes?  Probably not.