Arm-specific descriptions are out of hand...

[Anonymous]

The Jihae-haired <foo>

The horta-eyed <bar>

The ginka-fingered <baz>

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

There are times when white, gray, black, brown, blue, and slender still apply, eh?

[Yokunama]

The Jihae-haired <foo>

The horta-eyed <bar>

The ginka-fingered <baz>

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

There are times when white, gray, black, brown, blue, and slender still apply, eh?

Nope. People are just becoming more creative.

[Anonymous]

Creative is one thing, but pedantic is another.

I think this does less to paint a picture than to confuse people.  It's like a help document that tells you to look up another help document in every other sentence.

[Yang]

It's a matter of style. Some of my characters have sdescs that just do not stand out or stick in the memory at all. Some are over the top, and noteably exotic, but in description and the wording of that description.

In the end, its the pot calling the kettle black.

[Briarfox]

I think it is a matter of choice. If I was going to comment on sdesc or mdesc content I would say anyone using 'honey' (since I was told Zal honey is green) and expecting everyone to think the shade is golden-brown should be pinched. Also about obviously subjective content like 'radiant' or 'elegant' or simple things that do not accord with their stats. Like no way can you be 'nimble' or 'lithe as you step this way' when your agility is below average.

There are alot of things out there you can pick on people about, I do not think you or anyone should though.  

[RogueWarrior]

Well, I'm personally fond of it, but I also agree that it could be confusing to the newer players among us.

I think it'd be a pretty good idea for us just to make a help doc that describes some of the terminology. I really don't see why we don't have one already that lists things such as common animals and stuff like that (of course there's The Post, but that's just a post. We really need to come up with a help doc for it.

[Aldiel]

Don't know if this really fits here, but when I ever write up a sdesc, I always have one part be a common adjective and another part be an uncommon adjective.  I want my character to have a little bit of flavor to him, but I also want him to be accessable.  I don't think there is anything wrong with the pale, agafari-eyed man, but there might be something overly dense about the ginka-eyed, agafari-skinned man. Ultimately though, I just think it's a matter of opinion.

[Cale_Knight]

I never associate "zalanthan" color words with actual color. Those words only exist in my head, and not as colors.

If I see "the baobab-haired woman," it will never be as descriptive in my mind as "the brown-haired woman." They're not "real" words in my head, even if they are analogous with real ones.

[bloodfromstone]

I'm mixed on the issue. While I understand that part of it is an effort to keep the descriptions and such Zalanthan, I have a similar problem to Cale_Knight's. Granted, I've learned a number of tidbits about Zalanthan plants and such looking up things I see in descriptions. However, another problem I run into is that if things don't click for me right away, I don't not picture the person. My brain fills in the parts it doesn't understand, and I end up stuck with an incorrect image of the kank-faced, baobab-toothed man.

[moab]

First, I certainly don't find it pedantic.

I find not knowing the colors of things in our world to be ignorant.

Jihae?  Blood red.
Horta? Black.  Might even get creative and think that unripe horta has a different color than ripe horta.
Menelli: green

This is a world. Things you can do to draw attention to the world and make it more real is good.

Instead of getting offended and pulling out a $2 word, you should say WTF is a horta, look it up and then you know.  Now your mind eye has a better image of the person, of a horta and your game play will be that much more realistic.

I personally do have a problem with descs that include "sky blue" or "honey blonde" because those things don't exist in our world.  Sky red, honey green are, however, appropriate.

I wonder what the OP's real concern is?  Not wanting to look up the objects to find out what they look like?  Perhaps he prefers to pretend that kanks look like horses?  I dunno.

Edit to Add:

I think Cale displays this perfectly.  s/he claims Baobab is made up. Obviously s/he didn't bother to do the most cursory search:

Main Entry: bao·bab
Pronunciation: 'bau-"bab, 'bA-&-"bab
Function: noun
: a broad-trunked Old World tropical tree (Adansonia digitata) of the silk-cotton family (Bombacaceae) with an edible acid fruit resembling a gourd, leaves and bark formerly used medicinally, and bark that is used in making paper, cloth, and rope

It is a real word.  If you fail to take the time to learn the real word, why bother reading at all?

If you don't know what a baobab looks like, what are the words on the screen to you when you read that a baobab is standing before you, a halfling crouched under it?    Nothing?  Just some words?  
I'm not calling anyone stupid here.  I'm calling them lazy.  :-D

[Nao]

it's hard to picture stuff liekt hat, abnd I wouldn't even know where to find stuff like horta.

I've gotten used to agafari, baobab and the simple stuff - but what color is a ginka..? And is this even about colors or about if textrue or shape..?

I hate to have to look up words. It's disruptive, so as a rule, I don't sue words in my own descriptions that I have to look up - chances are, if I don't know the word, a good part of the playerbase won't know it either.

Those arm-specific words don't bother me that much though - what's worse is those decriptions obviously written with a thesaurus... If its one word int he short and maybe two or three in the full description, that might be fine, anything more is just more than annoying. This isn't wanted for room and object descriptions for a reason..

[moab]

You could start here:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/herbs.html
and here:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/plantlife.html

and if you don't have your answer ask on the board:
WTF is a horta, man?

You could find one in game and LOOK at it.

I get the feeling that too many people use brief mode and don't look at things and actually read the descs.

Then again, I'm paranoid.

Edit to add:
In my previous post, I said Cale called Baobab a made up word. I was incorrect, sorry about that, Cale.

Additionally - the inside of a Ginka is red.  The fruit is spiny.
We should probably add horta and ginka to the plantlife webpage.

[bloodfromstone]

what's worse is those decriptions obviously written with a thesaurus

This I whole-heartedly agree with. Using ridiculously complex words to describe simple things is literary masterbation, but I can deal with a little wankery. But, for the love of God, know what the meaning and context of a word is before you use it. Just because the thesaurus says two things are synonymous does not mean they are interchangable.

[moab]

The last place I expect to find anti-literacy is a mud (edit to add: THIS MUD, anyway).

"What's worse, these descriptions were written using a thesaurus?" *gasp*

Come on, as BFS said, it's incorrect use of a word that is a real problem.

From what I can understand, it sounds like the problem is that you (people who don't like certain words of whatever stripe) are uncomfortable with words you don't know.

Why on earth should anyone else have to write down to your level?  First, no one knows what level that might be.  Second, they want to enjoy the game so they write to the level they are comfortable with.

It's not about you.

If you don't understand something, read about it.  This is a reasonable tactic in many life situations.

[Larrath]

I think that the common colors simply need to be documented in a single accessible page.  Horta fruit isn't mentioned in any documents that I can think of, and the only way to find out that it is black is to stumble and find one.  Good thing people haven't started using melon- and japuaar-colored.

I am completely against the theory that if someone doesn't understand the word in a description then they should find out IC.  In the game reality, it's hard to tell "loreshi" from "dark navy blue" because it looks pretty much the same. People shouldn't have to waste time because people use large words in their descriptions - that is elitism, my friend.

I still remember having read a Borsail noble's description, and it said that that person's face was reminiscent of the Thornwalker Mountains.  Fortunately, that noble's player used this comparison in a good way and his description also stated that this similarity is due to the face being very craggy.  And that's the secret - you want to use Loreshi and Japuaar in your description?  More power to you.  But in your mdesc, explain what that adjective means.  Horta-black, as intense red as the flesh of a ginka fruit, as oversized as an aide's bosom...just explain it.

Anyway, having gotten used to them, I do like most of the Arm words being used in game, so I'll compile a tiny list of my own for this thread:
Jihae - a solid blood-red.
Lirathu - silver/white (imagine our moon only brighter and more silver-grey).
Ginka - lavender on the outside, deep red on the inside.
Horta - black.
Kalan - turquoise.
Agafari - gray.
Baobab - reddish-gray bark, dark maroon wood, purple leaves.
Cunyati - dark brown.
Cylini - normal wood color, but bark is greenish.
Cynipri - same as Cylini but bark is olive-purple.
Jallal - creamy beige bark.
Loreshi - dark indigo.
Runebane - gray.
Marble - typically green.
Honey - green.
Silt - powdery red-gray.
Sky - red.

It's very incomplete, but it should help.

[moab]

I am completely against the theory that if someone doesn't understand the word in a description then they should find out IC.  In the game reality, it's hard to tell "loreshi" from "dark navy blue" because it looks pretty much the same. People shouldn't have to waste time because people use large words in their descriptions - that is elitism, my friend.

I wouldn't say they should, but that they can.  It's an option. Rather than complain.  Look it up, find the object, whatever.  Try even google  or, if I dare say it, a thesaurus.

Additionally, I would add that words aren't just these binary things blue / not blue.  There are tones and shades and hints of meaning behind words.
You can use black. You could use "the color of night" you could use "the black of drov's innards" or "the rich glossy color of fresh minted obsidian" each gives a different message, communicates a different and subtle (or not) underlying tone.  

So - you the player doesn't know what color obsidian is? Should I know that in advance and plan for it?  No. Absolutely not.

[Larrath]

That's still elitist, moab.

Elitism is the mindkiller.  Elitism is the little PK that brings total obliteration.  Face your elitism.  Permit it to pass over and through you.  And when it has gone past you, turn to see elitism's path.  Where the elitism has gone there will be nothing.  Only mudsex will remain.


Anyway, as long as people just explained the Arm words in their mdesc, nobody has a problem.  If you seriously think it's wrong to expect that people playing 'loreshi-skinned' fellows to not explain in their mdesc what their skin and/or what loreshi looks like, I say BAH.

[moab]

Elite because I use a word you don't know?

How the krath do I know what you know prior to using it?  I think you are defending ignorance.

[mattrious]

Anyway, as long as people just explained the Arm words in their mdesc, nobody has a problem. If you seriously think it's wrong to expect that people playing 'loreshi-skinned' fellows to not explain in their mdesc what their skin and/or what loreshi looks like, I say BAH.

Exactly. I will admit I'm guilty of this, but at the same time I always use colors people know IRL in my main desc. So if people would quit being lazy and actually read other players descriptions instead of just identifying them by their sdesc - there would be no problem.

- Matt.

[Larrath]

Elite because I use a word you don't know?

Elite for using a word that no new player can understand without digging through a city to find a bit of horta husk that can be foraged in a room with one of those midden heaps once you get around the mugger NPCs?
Allow me to remind you something - a new player has an overwhelming amount of information that they need to absorb.  Throwing loreshi and cunyati at them while they're still figuring out how to tell a Kadian apart from a noble is simply not helping.

How the krath do I know what you know prior to using it?  I think you are defending ignorance.

Three kinds of people are going to read your main description - very experienced players (who would understand even if you referred to some plant that grows only in the middle of Steinal), regular players (who understand most non-obscure, documented or highly accessible Arm terms), and new players who understand very few Arm terms if at all.
My position is not to defend ignorance and you will never see me ask people to stop using polysyllibalic or obscure English words because I believe in dictionaries and thesauri.  I use them myself quite regularly.

I honestly can't understand the problem in explaining the term in your mdesc.  Seriously, it completely eludes me.

the emaciated, loreshi-skinned man

The deep, dark blue skin that clings to this aged human's frame seems disturbingly papery and translucent, at times offering glimpse of a lighter-blue vein.  His oversized, ginka-red eyes stare with extreme wideness, their whites touched with many visible blood vessels that make it seem as if his iris is going to bleed out onto his face.  He's also a l33t warrior, hire me plz plz plz.

Using an Arm-specific word in your mdesc and refusing to explain it with even a SINGLE word is, to me, nothing if not pure elitism.

[moab]

Larrath, in the case you specifically point out, I agree.

It's nice to do this.  

The horta-dark, for example
Or "the blood red of freshly cut ginka fruit" or something.

I like this style as well.

However, I don't think anyone should be beholden one way or the other or that we should sling around words like "elite" because someone chooses to use a word someone else doesn't know.

I find this argument amusing because in many ways I am an anti-intellectual and it pisses me off when people use words to obfuscate or lift themselves above the common man.  I generally see this when discussing religious issues.  

It is completely reasonable that someone should ask or look up a word like  loreshi.  I, myself, by example, would have never learned the color of maar but that someone used it in a description and I took the time to look it up.  Now I know it. Now I can use it because I know it.  I don't think to use it is elite. It is using something I know. If you don't know, then you can find out too.  :-D  Isn't that cool?  It only becomes elite if you use that knowledge of yours and refuse to share it with another (referring to the "Humphrey colored kank" when no one else will ever have a chance of knowing what color Humphrey refers to.

[Nao]

The last place I expect to find anti-literacy is a mud (edit to add: THIS MUD, anyway).

"What's worse, these descriptions were written using a thesaurus?" *gasp*

Come on, as BFS said, it's incorrect use of a word that is a real problem.

From what I can understand, it sounds like the problem is that you (people who don't like certain words of whatever stripe) are uncomfortable with words you don't know.

Why on earth should anyone else have to write down to your level?  First, no one knows what level that might be.  Second, they want to enjoy the game so they write to the level they are comfortable with.

It's not about you.

If you don't understand something, read about it.  This is a reasonable tactic in many life situations.

this is nto about anti-literacy, either. I'm not asking that you do anything below your level, or write down to anyones level or whatever.  I'm asking that if you don't know the word yourself right away without looking it up, then please don't use it.

I don't mind a few words like that, but when you've got to check the thesaurus every two minutes it gets more than annoying.

It's not hard to tell whether a word is completely obscure or not - I remember that one bards main description where 90% of the vocabular used were obscure to no end. And no, I don't feel like stopping gameplay for 20 minutes just to figure out what that guy looks like because some player thought he had to show off his uber-skills with a thesaurus. :wink:
Sometimes it's all too obvious how a description was written.

[Anonymous]

After reading moab's posts, it's become blatantly clear to me that I've created another monster.

I will agree with the others that his feel of things smacks of elitism.

So, I'm taking down the character thesaurus.  I never meant it to be used to make the game impenetrable for new players.  I meant it to add a little flavor for builders and main-descs, and to avoid a few weird things that newer players did.

But this rift is... wow.  I'm taking it down.

[Bestatte]

Heh - I remember someone once used the word "exsanguinous" in their sdesc. (Apologies to the player, I'm pickin on you but it's a good example so I'm sticking by it).

1) Exsanguinous isn't a word. The word is exsanguious. No second N.
2) It means "lacking red blood cells, as in an ant."
3) It does -not- mean pale.

For want of interesting words, sometimes people go overboard. And using such an obscure as exsanguious, which is almost impossible to type out if you're under pressure, misspelled so you can't even find it in a dictionary to know what it means, and inappropriate (not meaning what was intended), you have to realize that it will only serve to frustrate the reader, and not encourage them.

[Nao]

I checked thast some time ago... It exists and DOES mean something like pale, but obviously the dictionary where you looked it up didn't have it.

So really - are we expected to nkow words that aren't even listed in a medium-sized dictionary...?

[Anonymous]

post deleted

[Bestatte]

Webster's unabridged says:

"See exsanguious."

Online Medical dictionary has a reference to "exsanguineous" (with that e after the second n) and Webster's also has the same as an alternate spelling (but you have to know to look up that alternate spelling to get the spelling, because spelling it "exsanguinous" returns only "See exsanguious."

[Packersfan]

Now how about incredibly ooc words in sdescs, such as coffee-dark? I think they should not be allowed at all, and I think that anything that can't be found in the online helpfiles should not be used in sdescs. It is not fair to have a new player read all of the docs and still not be familiar with an immportant part of a character's apperance.

[Larrath]

OOC words have been stated to be acceptable as long as they don't break the atmosphere of the game, which is a low-fantasy, low-tech, no-metal desolate desert setting.

Words that relate to serious amount of coldness (frigid, frosty, snowy) are generally bad, though Icy, Cool and Cold are still good.  But no references to any icebergs or wave-filled oceans.

Anything sci-fi or any complex non-Zalanthan machinery is definitely bad - even if your character can somehow project a beam of concentrated light, don't go calling it a laser.

Coffee, humus, chocolate, olive, terracotta et cetera are all great, and you might find that some of these things actually exist in-game... to my partial displeasure, I might add, but a fact is a fact.

It's also much better to refer to Zalanthan animals instead of their Earthling counterparts - pounce like a rantarri, not a leopard, and charge like a carru.  Some of these things sadly do require a certain amount of IC knowledge, but it's still possible to explain and understand if the describer puts in reasonable effort.

[Kelogasi]

As a completely green player with less than 5 hours of playtime, I honestly find some of these player descriptions confusing.

You have to keep your expectations realistic. I simply cannot keep tabbing through the Arm command help listing trying to find out how to get a few coins out of my pack to get a drink of water, respond to attempts at communication from other players, "Roleplay", and still be expected to figure out what color Jihae (to use one example) is when a quick Google and Dictionary.com search of the term turns up nothing.

On the other hand, lots of characters I came across were immediately apparent to me from their short descriptions:

<snipped per request>

Being completely new to MUDs, the first link I clicked was "Introductory Information" and went from there. I read the vast majority of the links through there and created a character in Tuluk. I never came across the table of Armageddon plant life during those pages.

I suppose you could call it my fault for not being sufficiently thorough, but there's an awful lot of information that a new player needs to assimilate to even begin interacting with the population. Without constant prodding from a couple of the players I know in real life, I would have logged off after about an hour of play and never looked back.

Food for thought, ladies and gentlemen.

[aruna]

Now how about incredibly ooc words in sdescs, such as coffee-dark?

How do you know coffee doesn't exist in the game?  There are all kinds of things out there - you might be surprised.  And even if it doesn't,  I'm willing to bet most people know what coffee looks like.

I'm of the opinion (with others) that having any and all words that newbies may or may not be familiar with barred from use in your descriptions is pretty silly. One of the best ways to learn is by reading descriptions and being exposed to new information in game. I do, however, think things can be taken too far. If someone is putting so many obscure words and arm-related terms in their descriptions as to make it comepletely unreadable without looking everything up, I think that's definately pushing it.

I think a good compromise would be to say that if a character was born, lives and spends all or most of their time in one region of the world, it might make sense to limit world-based terminology in descriptions to that region. This would help limit the amount of confusing references to one area, and at that an area where most people who come in contact with your character will be familiar with.

Granted, I certainly don't believe this should be a -rule-, but it's something to think about.

Just use common sense, and everything is a-ok by me.

[LauraMars]

Whoops, not to stomp on your post, but you shouldn't post people's sdescs, Kelogasi.

[Kelogasi]

Doh! Sorry about that. Fixed. : (

[Many Faces]

My personal pet peeve is eyes in sdesc.  Ridiculous, and unneeded.  In fact, it's downright shortsighted to have eyes in your sdesc.

As for colors, man, I don't know why you have such a problem with it, davien.

Just seems like a stupid hang up to have... especially since it's someone else's character.

I guess the point I'm rambling here is worry about your character.  Worry about how your character looks.  That guy over there?  mansa?  He's playing the bahamet-eyed, tenneshi-haired man.  So what, let him play it if he's enjoying it.

I don't like 'eyed' in my sdecs, so I don't use them.  Some people do.  More power to them, if they''re enjoying it, I'll just contain my annoyance and hope the character depth lacks up for it.  I don't let it bother me, though.

[jhunter]

I have no problem with the use of just about anything in someone's sdesc as long as it is used correctly. It's also courteous if you are going to use a Zalanthan term to describe something, that you describe in simpler terms what it is exactly in your main description. (For the newbies)

I also have no problem with "odd" words that I don't know the meaning of being used. In fact, looking them up just because I never saw them before caused me to learn something.

*GASP* God forbid I had to look something up and actually -learn- something while playing a game!

Oh no! I went and -read- some of the documentation that I -never- would have if that elitist prick wouldn't of used that word just to make me feel dumb!!
:roll:

Give me a break people. The people complaining about this are just being lazy.

[LauraMars]

Hmm, there's nothing wrong with being creative.  I tend to have a disconnect between the made-up Zalanthan words and the colors they are intended to represent, but all that really matters is that I'm able to recognize that person when I see them again, and they're saying hi.  An image of them will form gradually, if not, they died too quickly.  No big loss.

I'm not a fan of eyes in short descriptions either.  But really, it's just a preference.  I think sdescs are as much of an ooc construct as an ic one.

Doh! Sorry about that. Fixed. : (

 It's ok.  Welcome.

[Larrath]

Give me a break people. The people complaining about this are just being lazy.

First of all, one MAJOR distinction:
I have no problem whatsoever with people that rummage through a dictionary and thesaurus and use the most obscure words they can find.  I think it can get ridiculous, but that's not my problem and it doesn't upset me.  It is also not the point of this thread.

This thread solely discusses people using obscure Arm-specific terms being used, sometimes excessively, without being explained.  This alienates new players and makes the game much harder for them to get into, because looking up 'Cunyati' when you're still struggling to learn what Borsail means is not that easy.  And don't forget that many new players don't even know they CAN look up 'Cunyati' in the documentations.

This has nothing to do with laziness.  This is about being newbie-friendly, which this MUD is supposed to be.
With newbies, live and let live or I will kill you.


And welcome to Armageddon, Keloggs-usagi!  Feel free to contact me or any other Helper if you have any questions.

[moab]

And while you're all about labeling people as being elitist, get a clue:

  1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
  2.
        1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
        2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

I don't believe that I'm an elitist.
I believe people should try their best to use words properly and when considering a word they don't know, they should look it up.

I'm not the one going about labeling people for having small or large vocabularies.

This should give you pause to think.

I'm not even sure that the word "elitist" is being used  properly here.

Do you mean that large vocabularies are used by some Arm players to keep the other Arm players at bay?

Or do you mean that you don't understand what I'm saying (though my words are correct?

I think that using words incorrectly is a moot point. It shouldn't be done. We all agree on that.

[jhunter]

This thread solely discusses people using obscure Arm-specific terms being used, sometimes excessively, without being explained. This alienates new players and makes the game much harder for them to get into, because looking up 'Cunyati' when you're still struggling to learn what Borsail means is not that easy. And don't forget that many new players don't even know they CAN look up 'Cunyati' in the documentations.

The Jihae-haired <foo>

The horta-eyed <bar>

The ginka-fingered <baz>

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

There are times when white, gray, black, brown, blue, and slender still apply, eh?

Sorry Larrath, but that's -not- what the original poster said. My point was that so long as people -are- explaining it then it is just fine and it -is- being lazy if they can't read the pc's main description to find out what it is. -Most- people do explain in further detail in the main description. You just have to -read- it.
I -highly- doubt we've lost new players for something as simple as "someone used a word they didn't understand in their sdesc". And if we did? If something that small would turn them away from the game...I could care less.

[moab]

This is about being newbie-friendly, which this MUD is supposed to be.

This mud is certainly not about the players.
This mud is certainly not about being newbie friendly.

I've never heard any staff say this mud is a "newbie friendly" mud or that it should be.

Where do you get this stuff?

[Anonymous]

This mud is certainly not about the players.
This mud is certainly not about being newbie friendly.

I've never heard any staff say this mud is a "newbie friendly" mud or that it should be.

Where do you get this stuff?

Then have fun playing by yourself (alone, that is) in the tavern.

Because I will guarantee you that people will eventually get bored of this game and stop playing it.  Without having the capacity to attract new players, every game dies.

[LauraMars]

Where do you get this stuff?

http://www.mudconnect.com/mud-bin/adv_search.cgi?Mode=MUD&mud=Armageddon

It says so in that link.  If it is incorrect someone should update it.

[moab]

LOL.  :-D

Well, then it's wrong.

The emote language is enough to show that.

[moab]

Then have fun playing by yourself (alone, that is) in the tavern.
Because I will guarantee you that people will eventually get bored of this game and stop playing it.  Without having the capacity to attract new players, every game dies.

Yeah people (including me) have been saying that for years. Hasn't happened yet.

[Anonymous]

because some of us invite friends to play and very carefully explain things to them in spite of people like you.

[Larrath]

Sorry Larrath, but that's -not- what the original poster said. My point was that so long as people -are- explaining it then it is just fine and it -is- being lazy if they can't read the pc's main description to find out what it is. -Most- people do explain in further detail in the main description. You just have to -read- it.

First of all, the thread developed.  Second, all I have been saying is that when people use an Arm-specific term, they should also explain it, even with a single word, in their mdesc.  We don't seem to have any disagreement.

I -highly- doubt we've lost new players for something as simple as "someone used a word they didn't understand in their sdesc". And if we did? If something that small would turn them away from the game...I could care less.

First of all, you might be surprised.  Most new players have a very hard time getting into Arm, and these added frustrations all add in.  I don't want lazy players more than anyone else, but new players need to be helped and encouraged instead of feeling inferior and under-valued.
This is why I'm a Helper.  Nobody has to be a Helper, but the least you can do, if you want Arm to keep developing and have new generations of players, is to not interrupt our helping efforts.  Old players leave MUDs continually, without a flow of new players that learn and gain experience, a MUD can't last very long.

Note that the above isn't directed at anyone in particular, though the few who take advantage of new players know who they are.

[moab]

because some of us invite friends to play and very carefully explain things to them in spite of people like you.

In spite of people like me?

What, that I use a vocabulary and read discriptions and look words up? Isn't what this is all about?

What do you mean, people like me?

[LauraMars]

Yeah, let's get rid of the helpers while we're at it.  They don't do anything for newbies.

Every mud is about the players, moab.  You can't have muds without players.  That's silly.

This thread is on serious crash course to derail.  Shall we split it off and continue the discussion of the merits of no new players? (ha...hahahahah)

[Many Faces]

Hey, I got an idea, lets all chill!

Okay, all you horta-balled and skelebain-breasted (picture a White Zombie album cover, kthx) people out there... sauce up your emotes a bit, with terms like 'brown' and shit that people understand.

And moab, yeah, Armageddon isn't about being newbie friendly... but most folks can spot a newbie within 5 mins if they've been around the Arm block for a while.  While you don't have to be friendly, you can *easily* go out of your way to make sure they have a bit of fucking understanding, capice?

A lot of people see a newbie as a walking coinpurse, and that's just fucking wrong.  Newbies need help.  You were one, we all were, and somewhere along the line WE ALL GOT HELP.

You're creative, help in IC ways.  Meet a newbie in a bar?  Get your PC a bit drunk and then ask this newbie to walk home with you and act all friendly, blabber on about just random factual crap that a newbie might not know.  See a newbie sitting, exhausted, on Templar's Way because they're dehydrated?  Score a deal with them where they give you a week's service because you give them a full waterskin.

They'll probably thank you for it, and you have the added bonus of not being a complete ass to someone who might not even know what the word 'permadeath' means yet.[/b]

[spawnloser]

Well, then it's wrong.

The emote language is enough to show that.

Heh, I see where this could be construed as not newbie friendly, but there is a good amount of documentation on how the emote structure works, as well as plenty of people willing to help the newbies.  We have many resources for newbies, in general, making the community newbie-friendly.  We can try to uphold this by not making the game any more dense and difficult to pick up on than it already is, perhaps even teaching by using the term, but explaining it as well, hmm?

[moab]

I do go out of the way for newbies, having brought a few to the mud.
I am also a helper, though I don't list it on this account.

Further, when I say the mud is not about the players, this is not my idea, but one stated by the staff on a number of occasions.

If they catered to players, the game would be like grass in the wind, bending every which way.  It doesn't because the game is about what the staff wants with input from the players. But don't kid yourself.  You will never have anything happen in this game that you want that the staff does not want.

This was stated many times over many years.  Unless there has been some great philosophy shift that hasn't been expressed, I don't believe it has changed.

[Larrath]

moab is not evil nor as mean as he appears in this thread.
Let's not kill him.

P.s. Yeah, there are a lot of Helpers and I think most of them feel this game is newbie-friendly.  The Helper list has over 40 names right now.

[Morgenes]

While I agree that Zalanthan specific terms, can be difficult to parse, I think they are an important part of impressing the flavor of the world, and the player's commitment to bringing that flavor to life.  I think providing help files on things like 'Horta', 'Jihae' and other common words that are used would be a good way to help ease this.

I'm sorry that Davien decided to pull her character builder page, because I know it has helped many a newbie put together a short description, and many a veteran come up with a new combination.  

I'm going to be following this post up with a call for helpfiles for common zalanthan terms used to espress color, texture, etc... so that we can help newbies with this issue.

[moab]

Depends what you mean by newbie friendly.

No newbie school.
Perma death after two hours.

Can you imagine spending two days writing up and waiting for your first app and dying in the first three hours?

All the while, you can't contact, you can't emote and you have no idea where to get water or food.

And that halfling IS NOT friendly.

If by newbie friendly we mean we have an OOC support system. Yes, we are.

If by newbie friendly meaning you'll pick up the game quickly, we are not.

[Marauder Moe]

Ack!  The character thesaurus is gone?  Can we get it hosted here maybe?   :shock:

[Anonymous]

moab is not evil nor as mean as he appears in this thread.
Let's not kill him.

lol.  

Incidently, I found Sanvean's building guide said what I thought fairly well:

Descriptions are ideally between 4-10 lines long. The main intention is to convey an accurate picture - don't get bogged down in flowery or overly ornate language that obscures the visual image. Don't fall victim to thesaurus-speak and substitute complex words for straightforward unless they do indeed add a layer of meaning to the writing. Don't use words because they look good and please, for the love of Muk Utep, don't use them if you're unclear on the meaning.

Use Zalanthan terms. Not oak-brown, but cunyati-brown. Pink as a pymlithe blossom. Not snow white but ivory or milk. Keep in mind the differences between various areas - in the Northlands wood is the most common building material, while in the south, stone or bone will be more common.

I note that her note prefers saying "cunyati-brown" or "pink as a pymlithe blossom" rather than using just the word "pymlithe" or "cunyati" as it seems to "obscure the visual image".

I guess I would be fine if it said something like "horta-colored eyes" or "hair the color of the red moon Jihae" - but the english translations, to me, come out like "the oak-haired woman" or "the eggplant-eyed woman" which just makes me giggle.  The first has hair made of wood, and the second has fruits for eyes.

Maybe it's not the arm specificity of these sdescs that irritates me, but the usage of terms in context.  "The main intention is to convey an accurate picture - don't get bogged down in flowery or overly ornate language that obscures the visual image."

[Many Faces]

that her note prefers saying "cunyati-brown" or "pink as a pymlithe blossom" rather than using just the word "pymlithe" or "cunyati" as it seems to "obscure the visual image".

I guess I would be fine if it said something like "horta-colored eyes" or "hair the color of the red moon Jihae" - but the english translations, to me, come out like "the oak-haired woman" or "the eggplant-eyed woman" which just makes me giggle. The first has hair made of wood, and the second has fruits for eyes.

That's a very good point, davien.

It should always be backed up, but sdescs are a tight commodity.  Colored is 7 characters, of what, 36?  Hued would work.  Even toned, but still, that's 4 chars (5 with a dash) that you can't use in your sdesc to get across the rest of what you might want to.[/quote]

[Anonymous]

brevity is the soul of wit.

[aruna]

Pleeeease don't pull the character thesaurus. I love that thing.

[moab]

In the end, when it come to short descriptions, (for what it is worth) I prefer the average joe look.

The lean, dark-haired man
The short, olive-skinned woman

I, personally, don't often play someone with odd "water colored hair" or anything like that.

I have been known to take non-unique npc short descs and use those because very often I want to look like the average joe.

but I will certainly slip in the eyes the silvery-grey of glimmergrass in the main desc.

Really.  Lots of ya'll don't read main descs and plenty use brief mode anyway.

*poke*

[Yokunama]

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

Now how about incredibly ooc words in sdescs, such as coffee-dark?

It is not "wrong" to use non-Zalanthan metaphors, comparisons, etc. in your description writing. However, it is preferred that you use Zalanthan terms since it helps add a lot of flavor to the game.  If you're a player who has been around awhile, application reviewers may make suggestions regarding how to Zalanthanize your descriptions since we like to see people move in that direction, but we understand its hard to write that way when you're new.

[Sanvean]

I like the Zalanthan themed touches in sdesc and ldescs.  They don't seem to be too over the top lately to me.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, now that I've pinpointed why it itched me, I'm mostly go.  But I'm easing a new player into it now, and he is completely lost and despairing because descriptions using exclusively in-game terms are not descriptive to him as he has never seen a pymlithe blossom or an agafari branch or a ginka vine or a horta fruit.  

I don't consider it "laziness" or "willful ignorance" for him to feel this way, either.  But I'll keep giggling at people with tree-hair and fruit-eyes, now.  That totally makes me smile.

[LauraMars]

The tree-haired, fruit-eyed man is blossoming here, fruitily.

[Anonymous]

The tree-haired, fruit-eyed man is blossoming here, fruitily.

lol!

Exactly!

[Anonymous]

The tree-haired, fruit-eyed man is blossoming here, fruitily.

The chestnut-haired, orange-eyed man is blossoming here, fruitily.

[Angela Christine]

Using uncommon words in your sdesc is fine, but it is fantastic if you expand and clairfy them in your mdesc.  

Suppose I see the jallal-haired man.  I'm going to assume they mean the colour of jallal, but do they mean the wood of the jallal tree, the bark of the jallal tree, the leaves of the jallal tree, the roots of the jallal tree, the rind of the jallal fruit, the flesh of the jallal fruit, or the pit of the jallal fruit?  There just isn't enough context to figure it out, unless they clairify it in the mdesc.

Then I see the namut-haired man.  I think, "Ah ha!  Greenish grey hair!  I bet he's a mutant."  But then I read the mdesc and find out he isn't a mutant, his hair is the texture of namut vines (kind of ropy and shaggy, like dreadlocks) not the colour of namut vines.  D'oh!  It's a good thing I read his mdesc before I went and called him a green haired freak.


Clairity is good.


Angela Christine

[John]

There are a ton of words that I didn't know before I came to Arm. I personally view Arm-specific words in the same category as those, the only difference is where you look for the answer. With real words you don't know, you look in a dictionary, other words you can now look in helpfiles (a nice rule of thumb you might want to make for yourself is if you use an Arm specific word, check to see if it has a helpfile yet and submit one if it doesn't).

But using words can be difficult, so you might only want to use the most common. I remember when I was new everyone asking me what colour my peshek hair was

[Anonymous]

So, a new question, then.  

Would someone who has never left Allanak know what a Pfafna flower looks like?  Or someone who has never left Red Storm, would they know what a pymlithe blossom looks like?

Or, are we conveying things that are only OOC known with our descriptions?

[moab]

We are buildling the theme and environment of the mud.

[Sanvean]

Here's the list that I found on the staff wiki, put together by Ix Machina a while back:

Animals

anakore-eyed: Beady or hard, cruel eyes
braxat-like: primitive and hulking
carru-horned: possessing sharp, braching horns
duskhorn-eyed: doe-eyed, soft-eyed
duskhorn-horned: possessing long, spiralling black horns
escru-haired: woolly-haired
gortok-eyed: wild, canine/wolven eyes; feral eyes
gortok-like: mangy and feral
goudra: a golden-brown hue
goudra-like: long and slinky, sinuous
gurthlike: posessing sturdy, squat qualities (mandy dwarves are gurthlike)
jakhal-eyed: possessing wild, sharp eyes; feral
jozhal-eyed: possessing eyes of iridescent, glittering quality
jozhal-skinned: possessing skin of a shimmering, iridescent quality
mekillot: overpoweringly-huge, gigantic (denotes size)
quirri-eyed: sharp, feline eyes, usually green or bioluminescent
quirri-hued/toned: deep black, like quirri hide
raptor-skinned: possessing scaly, lizard-like skin
rat-like: features resembling a sharp-nosed rodent
shik-nosed: a long, protruberant nose, like a shik-beak
tandu: a pale to medium brown, somewhere between tan and coffee
tembo-eyed: savage, cruel eyes
tembo-like: squat and savage-looking
tortoise-shell: a mottled hue of olive, greens, golds and browns like polished bahamet shell
tregil-like: small and harmless-looking

Herbs

bimbal: a greyish-green hue
glimmergrass: a silvery-green hue
joylilt: a bright, orangy-yellow
lifera: a dusty, mauve-pink
menelli: a deep pink
pfafna: a shimmering white
seereye: a pale, delicate blue reminiscent of young seereye blossoms
yuku: a deep black-violet hue, inky

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minerals

alabaster: a creamy-white, or pale hue
basalt: a dark grey, black hue
flint: normally a grey tint
flint-eyed: denotes possessing hard or sharp eyes
granite-like: uniformly speckled, resembling the stone
jasper: red or reddish-brown
marble: smooth or sculpted looking skin or eyes, usually prefaced with a color "She has skin like white *marble."
obsidian: black or glassy-black
onyx: a deep black hue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gems

citrine: a bright, orangy-yellow or orange hue
ruby: a scarlet hue
temboeye: a striated, luminescent hue of yellows and browns and black similar to the gemstone, chatoyant
jade: a pale to dark, opaque green
beryl: blue-green, transparent
turquoise: bright greenish-blue
isilt: a pale, creamy whitish-yellow to light tan
sapphire: deep, bright blue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plants and fruits

agafari: grey or greyish brown
baobab: a maroon or purplish-brown hue
belshun: a medium to dark purple
cunyati: a medium-brown tone
cylini: a light-brown tone
cyprini: a dark-brown tone
ginka: a rich, vibrant red or red-violet
horta: a rich black
jallal: the creamy yellowish-white hue of its wood or the color of its fruit: a bright orange
kalan: a turquoise hue
loreshi: a deep, indigo-violet hue
maar: a yellow-grey hue
numut: a medium-grey like old cobwebs
ocotillo: a medium violet hue
whipleaf: a deep, rich brown
pech: a dull, greenish-brown
arruth: a purplish-green hue
grebel: a purplish-brown hue
pymlithe: a silvery-grey hue
vishith: a pale to medium dusty red

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spices

qel: a greenish-brown
thodeliv: a rich black
krentakh: a golden yellow
zharal: a deep red/brick red
methelinoc: salt-and-pepper or grey

[Marauder Moe]

If this goes into a doc there should be a part warning against using animal names in sdesc and then joining the Byn.   :roll:

EDIT: Also weren't spice names and associated colors supposed to be a "find out IC" thing?

[mansa]

I'm sorry that Davien decided to pull her character builder page, because I know it has helped many a newbie put together a short description, and many a veteran come up with a new combination.

Know what is awesome?  THE INTERNET.


http://web.archive.org/web/20010803151936/http://www.ci-n.com/~darklyn/armageddon/char.html

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!

[Aldiel]

I personally do have a problem with descs that include "sky blue" or "honey blonde" because those things don't exist in our world.  Sky red, honey green are, however, appropriate."

True dat, I find it jarring sometimes when I see things like "coffee-eyed."  I'd much rather just have brown-eyed, or agafari-eyed.

[Maybe42or54]

I'm sorry that Davien decided to pull her character builder page, because I know it has helped many a newbie put together a short description, and many a veteran come up with a new combination.

Know what is awesome?  THE INTERNET.


http://web.archive.org/web/20010803151936/http://www.ci-n.com/~darklyn/armageddon/char.html

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!

I love that site, it is in my favorites. Has been since I started.
If you explore, you'll find a little page called "in-game flavor"

http://web.archive.org/web/20011208201337/www.ci-n.com/armageddon/in-game_tips.html

[Anonymous]

Damnit, mansa.

=)

[Agent_137]

Damnit, mansa.

=)

and i just saved it to harddrive, so i can host it myself until you threaten to sue.

[John]

Damnit, mansa.

=)

Wait, you're the person who made the Darklyn intro tips? If so, thanks a lot, I've always appreciated it from when I was a newb until the last time I made a character.

I do have to ask though, why did you decide to take it down?

[Anonymous]

Because it's been almost 10 years since it's been revised, it's way out of date, and I want to put the damned thing into a database and write some new text for it.

I'm trying to work with the staff inasfar as what I can put into it that is game-specific.

[John]

Aaah, great. Thanks I'm all for improving documentation.

[Anonymous]

Armageddoners are not the only ones who use it, btw.  It gets LOTS of hits from other people.

[John]

Heh, I didn't know that.

[Maybe42or54]

Here's the list that I found on the staff wiki, put together by Ix Machina a while back:

You forgot a fruit:
Vordak: Deep Purple, oblong

[Anonymous]

I thought belshun fruit was blue, not dark purple...

[skulljar]

If I am IC looking at someone and examining their general description, I will use the terms I am familiar with in my head. My character would make IC terms, but problem is that I don't know these terms OOC yet. So perhaps you are drawing from my RP experience by using these elitist terms? Of course I will learn them using the FAQ/boards, however the request remains: attempt to use these IC terms accompanied by OOC plain English descriptions to help the noobs.

[Anonymous]

I'd say it's a bit of both. As an example in the real world we do use terms like "Doe eyed",or "Sleek like a cat" but we don't use terms like "Hair the color of pine tree bark" or "Oak colored skin"

[Angela Christine]

Mahogany skin or chestnut hair wouldn't freak anyone out in RL though, and those are both tree colors.


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

Mahogany skin or chestnut hair wouldn't freak anyone out in RL though, and those are both tree colors.

Yes, but this is more an exercise in idiom.  I don't think that's been extended to the Armageddon lexicon yet.  Which is why it's just weird.

An Orange is orange.
An Apple is not apple.
Banannas are more often yellow than bananna, or they are bananna-yellow.

At what point is Agafari brown, Ocotillo ocotillo or Horta horta-colored?  I think it's silly to automatically assume that all things represented in Zalanthas immediately refer to a color.

(and this is part of the reason I'm revising the chargen site - that's not been made clear even for the english examples)

[moab]

I think you're silly.

 :twisted:

[Anonymous]

I think you're silly.

 :twisted:

Oh, I freely admit that.  Haven't you been paying attention? =D