Arm-specific descriptions are out of hand...

[Anonymous]

The Jihae-haired <foo>

The horta-eyed <bar>

The ginka-fingered <baz>

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

There are times when white, gray, black, brown, blue, and slender still apply, eh?

[Yokunama]

The Jihae-haired <foo>

The horta-eyed <bar>

The ginka-fingered <baz>

Does anyone else think this degree of theme-specifics might be making the game a little less accessible to new players?

There are times when white, gray, black, brown, blue, and slender still apply, eh?

Nope. People are just becoming more creative.

[Anonymous]

Creative is one thing, but pedantic is another.

I think this does less to paint a picture than to confuse people.  It's like a help document that tells you to look up another help document in every other sentence.

[Yang]

It's a matter of style. Some of my characters have sdescs that just do not stand out or stick in the memory at all. Some are over the top, and noteably exotic, but in description and the wording of that description.

In the end, its the pot calling the kettle black.

[Briarfox]

I think it is a matter of choice. If I was going to comment on sdesc or mdesc content I would say anyone using 'honey' (since I was told Zal honey is green) and expecting everyone to think the shade is golden-brown should be pinched. Also about obviously subjective content like 'radiant' or 'elegant' or simple things that do not accord with their stats. Like no way can you be 'nimble' or 'lithe as you step this way' when your agility is below average.

There are alot of things out there you can pick on people about, I do not think you or anyone should though.  

[RogueWarrior]

Well, I'm personally fond of it, but I also agree that it could be confusing to the newer players among us.

I think it'd be a pretty good idea for us just to make a help doc that describes some of the terminology. I really don't see why we don't have one already that lists things such as common animals and stuff like that (of course there's The Post, but that's just a post. We really need to come up with a help doc for it.

[Aldiel]

Don't know if this really fits here, but when I ever write up a sdesc, I always have one part be a common adjective and another part be an uncommon adjective.  I want my character to have a little bit of flavor to him, but I also want him to be accessable.  I don't think there is anything wrong with the pale, agafari-eyed man, but there might be something overly dense about the ginka-eyed, agafari-skinned man. Ultimately though, I just think it's a matter of opinion.

[Cale_Knight]

I never associate "zalanthan" color words with actual color. Those words only exist in my head, and not as colors.

If I see "the baobab-haired woman," it will never be as descriptive in my mind as "the brown-haired woman." They're not "real" words in my head, even if they are analogous with real ones.

[bloodfromstone]

I'm mixed on the issue. While I understand that part of it is an effort to keep the descriptions and such Zalanthan, I have a similar problem to Cale_Knight's. Granted, I've learned a number of tidbits about Zalanthan plants and such looking up things I see in descriptions. However, another problem I run into is that if things don't click for me right away, I don't not picture the person. My brain fills in the parts it doesn't understand, and I end up stuck with an incorrect image of the kank-faced, baobab-toothed man.

[moab]

First, I certainly don't find it pedantic.

I find not knowing the colors of things in our world to be ignorant.

Jihae?  Blood red.
Horta? Black.  Might even get creative and think that unripe horta has a different color than ripe horta.
Menelli: green

This is a world. Things you can do to draw attention to the world and make it more real is good.

Instead of getting offended and pulling out a $2 word, you should say WTF is a horta, look it up and then you know.  Now your mind eye has a better image of the person, of a horta and your game play will be that much more realistic.

I personally do have a problem with descs that include "sky blue" or "honey blonde" because those things don't exist in our world.  Sky red, honey green are, however, appropriate.

I wonder what the OP's real concern is?  Not wanting to look up the objects to find out what they look like?  Perhaps he prefers to pretend that kanks look like horses?  I dunno.

Edit to Add:

I think Cale displays this perfectly.  s/he claims Baobab is made up. Obviously s/he didn't bother to do the most cursory search:

Main Entry: bao·bab
Pronunciation: 'bau-"bab, 'bA-&-"bab
Function: noun
: a broad-trunked Old World tropical tree (Adansonia digitata) of the silk-cotton family (Bombacaceae) with an edible acid fruit resembling a gourd, leaves and bark formerly used medicinally, and bark that is used in making paper, cloth, and rope

It is a real word.  If you fail to take the time to learn the real word, why bother reading at all?

If you don't know what a baobab looks like, what are the words on the screen to you when you read that a baobab is standing before you, a halfling crouched under it?    Nothing?  Just some words?  
I'm not calling anyone stupid here.  I'm calling them lazy.  :-D

[Nao]

it's hard to picture stuff liekt hat, abnd I wouldn't even know where to find stuff like horta.

I've gotten used to agafari, baobab and the simple stuff - but what color is a ginka..? And is this even about colors or about if textrue or shape..?

I hate to have to look up words. It's disruptive, so as a rule, I don't sue words in my own descriptions that I have to look up - chances are, if I don't know the word, a good part of the playerbase won't know it either.

Those arm-specific words don't bother me that much though - what's worse is those decriptions obviously written with a thesaurus... If its one word int he short and maybe two or three in the full description, that might be fine, anything more is just more than annoying. This isn't wanted for room and object descriptions for a reason..

[moab]

You could start here:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/herbs.html
and here:
http://www.armageddon.org/general/plantlife.html

and if you don't have your answer ask on the board:
WTF is a horta, man?

You could find one in game and LOOK at it.

I get the feeling that too many people use brief mode and don't look at things and actually read the descs.

Then again, I'm paranoid.

Edit to add:
In my previous post, I said Cale called Baobab a made up word. I was incorrect, sorry about that, Cale.

Additionally - the inside of a Ginka is red.  The fruit is spiny.
We should probably add horta and ginka to the plantlife webpage.

[bloodfromstone]

what's worse is those decriptions obviously written with a thesaurus

This I whole-heartedly agree with. Using ridiculously complex words to describe simple things is literary masterbation, but I can deal with a little wankery. But, for the love of God, know what the meaning and context of a word is before you use it. Just because the thesaurus says two things are synonymous does not mean they are interchangable.

[moab]

The last place I expect to find anti-literacy is a mud (edit to add: THIS MUD, anyway).

"What's worse, these descriptions were written using a thesaurus?" *gasp*

Come on, as BFS said, it's incorrect use of a word that is a real problem.

From what I can understand, it sounds like the problem is that you (people who don't like certain words of whatever stripe) are uncomfortable with words you don't know.

Why on earth should anyone else have to write down to your level?  First, no one knows what level that might be.  Second, they want to enjoy the game so they write to the level they are comfortable with.

It's not about you.

If you don't understand something, read about it.  This is a reasonable tactic in many life situations.

[Larrath]

I think that the common colors simply need to be documented in a single accessible page.  Horta fruit isn't mentioned in any documents that I can think of, and the only way to find out that it is black is to stumble and find one.  Good thing people haven't started using melon- and japuaar-colored.

I am completely against the theory that if someone doesn't understand the word in a description then they should find out IC.  In the game reality, it's hard to tell "loreshi" from "dark navy blue" because it looks pretty much the same. People shouldn't have to waste time because people use large words in their descriptions - that is elitism, my friend.

I still remember having read a Borsail noble's description, and it said that that person's face was reminiscent of the Thornwalker Mountains.  Fortunately, that noble's player used this comparison in a good way and his description also stated that this similarity is due to the face being very craggy.  And that's the secret - you want to use Loreshi and Japuaar in your description?  More power to you.  But in your mdesc, explain what that adjective means.  Horta-black, as intense red as the flesh of a ginka fruit, as oversized as an aide's bosom...just explain it.

Anyway, having gotten used to them, I do like most of the Arm words being used in game, so I'll compile a tiny list of my own for this thread:
Jihae - a solid blood-red.
Lirathu - silver/white (imagine our moon only brighter and more silver-grey).
Ginka - lavender on the outside, deep red on the inside.
Horta - black.
Kalan - turquoise.
Agafari - gray.
Baobab - reddish-gray bark, dark maroon wood, purple leaves.
Cunyati - dark brown.
Cylini - normal wood color, but bark is greenish.
Cynipri - same as Cylini but bark is olive-purple.
Jallal - creamy beige bark.
Loreshi - dark indigo.
Runebane - gray.
Marble - typically green.
Honey - green.
Silt - powdery red-gray.
Sky - red.

It's very incomplete, but it should help.

[moab]

I am completely against the theory that if someone doesn't understand the word in a description then they should find out IC.  In the game reality, it's hard to tell "loreshi" from "dark navy blue" because it looks pretty much the same. People shouldn't have to waste time because people use large words in their descriptions - that is elitism, my friend.

I wouldn't say they should, but that they can.  It's an option. Rather than complain.  Look it up, find the object, whatever.  Try even google  or, if I dare say it, a thesaurus.

Additionally, I would add that words aren't just these binary things blue / not blue.  There are tones and shades and hints of meaning behind words.
You can use black. You could use "the color of night" you could use "the black of drov's innards" or "the rich glossy color of fresh minted obsidian" each gives a different message, communicates a different and subtle (or not) underlying tone.  

So - you the player doesn't know what color obsidian is? Should I know that in advance and plan for it?  No. Absolutely not.

[Larrath]

That's still elitist, moab.

Elitism is the mindkiller.  Elitism is the little PK that brings total obliteration.  Face your elitism.  Permit it to pass over and through you.  And when it has gone past you, turn to see elitism's path.  Where the elitism has gone there will be nothing.  Only mudsex will remain.


Anyway, as long as people just explained the Arm words in their mdesc, nobody has a problem.  If you seriously think it's wrong to expect that people playing 'loreshi-skinned' fellows to not explain in their mdesc what their skin and/or what loreshi looks like, I say BAH.

[moab]

Elite because I use a word you don't know?

How the krath do I know what you know prior to using it?  I think you are defending ignorance.

[mattrious]

Anyway, as long as people just explained the Arm words in their mdesc, nobody has a problem. If you seriously think it's wrong to expect that people playing 'loreshi-skinned' fellows to not explain in their mdesc what their skin and/or what loreshi looks like, I say BAH.

Exactly. I will admit I'm guilty of this, but at the same time I always use colors people know IRL in my main desc. So if people would quit being lazy and actually read other players descriptions instead of just identifying them by their sdesc - there would be no problem.

- Matt.

[Larrath]

Elite because I use a word you don't know?

Elite for using a word that no new player can understand without digging through a city to find a bit of horta husk that can be foraged in a room with one of those midden heaps once you get around the mugger NPCs?
Allow me to remind you something - a new player has an overwhelming amount of information that they need to absorb.  Throwing loreshi and cunyati at them while they're still figuring out how to tell a Kadian apart from a noble is simply not helping.

How the krath do I know what you know prior to using it?  I think you are defending ignorance.

Three kinds of people are going to read your main description - very experienced players (who would understand even if you referred to some plant that grows only in the middle of Steinal), regular players (who understand most non-obscure, documented or highly accessible Arm terms), and new players who understand very few Arm terms if at all.
My position is not to defend ignorance and you will never see me ask people to stop using polysyllibalic or obscure English words because I believe in dictionaries and thesauri.  I use them myself quite regularly.

I honestly can't understand the problem in explaining the term in your mdesc.  Seriously, it completely eludes me.

the emaciated, loreshi-skinned man

The deep, dark blue skin that clings to this aged human's frame seems disturbingly papery and translucent, at times offering glimpse of a lighter-blue vein.  His oversized, ginka-red eyes stare with extreme wideness, their whites touched with many visible blood vessels that make it seem as if his iris is going to bleed out onto his face.  He's also a l33t warrior, hire me plz plz plz.

Using an Arm-specific word in your mdesc and refusing to explain it with even a SINGLE word is, to me, nothing if not pure elitism.

[moab]

Larrath, in the case you specifically point out, I agree.

It's nice to do this.  

The horta-dark, for example
Or "the blood red of freshly cut ginka fruit" or something.

I like this style as well.

However, I don't think anyone should be beholden one way or the other or that we should sling around words like "elite" because someone chooses to use a word someone else doesn't know.

I find this argument amusing because in many ways I am an anti-intellectual and it pisses me off when people use words to obfuscate or lift themselves above the common man.  I generally see this when discussing religious issues.  

It is completely reasonable that someone should ask or look up a word like  loreshi.  I, myself, by example, would have never learned the color of maar but that someone used it in a description and I took the time to look it up.  Now I know it. Now I can use it because I know it.  I don't think to use it is elite. It is using something I know. If you don't know, then you can find out too.  :-D  Isn't that cool?  It only becomes elite if you use that knowledge of yours and refuse to share it with another (referring to the "Humphrey colored kank" when no one else will ever have a chance of knowing what color Humphrey refers to.

[Nao]

The last place I expect to find anti-literacy is a mud (edit to add: THIS MUD, anyway).

"What's worse, these descriptions were written using a thesaurus?" *gasp*

Come on, as BFS said, it's incorrect use of a word that is a real problem.

From what I can understand, it sounds like the problem is that you (people who don't like certain words of whatever stripe) are uncomfortable with words you don't know.

Why on earth should anyone else have to write down to your level?  First, no one knows what level that might be.  Second, they want to enjoy the game so they write to the level they are comfortable with.

It's not about you.

If you don't understand something, read about it.  This is a reasonable tactic in many life situations.

this is nto about anti-literacy, either. I'm not asking that you do anything below your level, or write down to anyones level or whatever.  I'm asking that if you don't know the word yourself right away without looking it up, then please don't use it.

I don't mind a few words like that, but when you've got to check the thesaurus every two minutes it gets more than annoying.

It's not hard to tell whether a word is completely obscure or not - I remember that one bards main description where 90% of the vocabular used were obscure to no end. And no, I don't feel like stopping gameplay for 20 minutes just to figure out what that guy looks like because some player thought he had to show off his uber-skills with a thesaurus. :wink:
Sometimes it's all too obvious how a description was written.

[Anonymous]

After reading moab's posts, it's become blatantly clear to me that I've created another monster.

I will agree with the others that his feel of things smacks of elitism.

So, I'm taking down the character thesaurus.  I never meant it to be used to make the game impenetrable for new players.  I meant it to add a little flavor for builders and main-descs, and to avoid a few weird things that newer players did.

But this rift is... wow.  I'm taking it down.

[Bestatte]

Heh - I remember someone once used the word "exsanguinous" in their sdesc. (Apologies to the player, I'm pickin on you but it's a good example so I'm sticking by it).

1) Exsanguinous isn't a word. The word is exsanguious. No second N.
2) It means "lacking red blood cells, as in an ant."
3) It does -not- mean pale.

For want of interesting words, sometimes people go overboard. And using such an obscure as exsanguious, which is almost impossible to type out if you're under pressure, misspelled so you can't even find it in a dictionary to know what it means, and inappropriate (not meaning what was intended), you have to realize that it will only serve to frustrate the reader, and not encourage them.

[Nao]

I checked thast some time ago... It exists and DOES mean something like pale, but obviously the dictionary where you looked it up didn't have it.

So really - are we expected to nkow words that aren't even listed in a medium-sized dictionary...?