Roleplaying Backstab

[ibusoe]

Backstab.  I can remember reading about the skill for the first time in a Dungeons and Dragons Player's Guide waaaaaaay back in the 80's.  

Nothing I had hitherto encountered in fiction -- GI Joe, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, HeMan vs. Skeletor -- had prepared me for reading about this.

Backstab seemed sneaky.  Backstab seemed devious.  I liked the idea.  I probably played a couple of thief characters just to try it out.  As I grew older and turned to more sohpisticated fiction, I discovered historical and literature precedents for the skill, and it seemed a neat application to bring to the gaming table.

The backstab skill, although popular, tends to generate a lot of controversy.  For one, it's hard to find a large group of gamers who will agree to what exactly the backstab skill is.

Having spoken with a number of people on the subject, I've encountered three general schools of thought on the backstab skill.

Anatomy Although perhaps the least plausible, there are a few people who feel that a fictional/fantasy assasin might study a lot of anatomy.  As a result, they know exactly where to stab a person (between the ribs, into a lug, a soft underbelly) who is not prepared to defend themselves against this.  

Flank Attack This is perhaps the most popular, for people who take the literal explanation.  An assassin waits for an opportunity to step behind a person, and then attacks from an advantageous position.  No one except for a skilled contortionist will be able to parry shots coming behind them with full effectiveness, leaving the victim unprepared to defend themselves.

Surprise Attack This personally is my favorite, because it encompases a lot of possibilities, including finding a way to attack someone who is surrounded by guards, or finding a way to stab someone who you are talking to.  What I believe is that a backstab is not taken literally, but rather it is the attempt by any sneaky, sharp-minded and aggressive person to launch an attack on a foe who is not expecting it.  You might be lulling them into a relaxed state, they might be busy reading a book, or unlocking their apartment.  In any event, they aren't prepared for your surprise attack and thus have trouble defending against it.


The possibilities are fascinating.  Nonetheless, regardless of how you mechanically explain the skill, each explanation seems to require that the victim is not prepared for the attack.  After all, if two warriors square of against each other, they're using general combat skills and they aren't really using backstab at all.

A funny thing happened to me a few weeks ago.  Some person used the backstab skill against me about four times in three real life minutes.  In the weeks leading up to this, they'd said and done a number of things that gave me the impression that they didn't really identify with who assassins are and what it is that they do.  Without making any sort of critique of their role-play skills, what I am more interested in finding out is the general sentiments of the player-base.  

Personally, I was trying to imagine myself in that situation, and what my response would be.  It's very feasible that someone might try to stick a knife in my ribs someday.  What if they tried and they were not succesful?  Could they then immediately take two steps behind me and try again?  After that didn't work, could they then hide behind a tree for a minute, and then rush up for a third shot?  And when that shot is unsuccesful, could they put on a fake nose go in for the fourth try, me not expecting any of it?

I suppose that my take on this is that it would be very possible for a skilled person to get a shot in on me.  If this didn't work, I'd probably be really nervous, jumpy and alert.  After that, it would be really really hard to catch me with my guard down for the next twenty-four hours, or the rest of the day.  In essence, I feel that your next shot at me would be when I finally settle down somewhere to get some sleep.

How does everyone else feel?  Is there any sort of limit to how often you can backstab the same person?

[spawnloser]

Properly roleplayed, I could see backstabbing more often than you suggest...

I find the options you've listed have a bias against backstabbing very often at all.

However, if you can set the situation right?  I could see several times in rapid succession.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, I believe by backstabbing once, with the code, encompasses all the hits you just tried to make. As you can run up behind someone and stab them 6-7 times rather quickly. Using "Backstab," the skill, more than twice a fight is kind of cheasy. Especially when it is one on one, they aren't going to keep walking and not give a damn, they are going to turn with all their might to see what the fuck just stabbed them, or they'll die.

If an assassin Backstabs, and fails completely, at trying to kill something. Then they should see the disadvantage (they tried to kill someone, but failed completely with all the advantages they had) to it and run away for another day, not try to fight because the code says they can. It is similiar in my mind to attacking the same NPC over and over, then resting, then fighting again until you win.

Some may do, i hope the majority don't.

[Cenghiz]

I'm thinking of playing an assassin as one of the next characters. I want to see the hard of work the immortals on 'rinth.. So, the advices of the folks who are used to sneaky 'rinth dwellers will help a lot to me. I have little to none experience with assassins.
So please, experienced ones, one's looking forward to see examples of good RP of backstab training and actual usage of the skill, even a few logs stripped of IC information. Remember I'm a non-native English speaker and it's often hard for me to emote about something I'm alien to.
Thanks in advance to all who spare their time.

[Larrath]

I think that a good measurement is per battle as opposed to an IC day.    If someone got backstabbed in the 'rinth and fled immediately (while limping) and the attacker got ahead of him, the attacker can wait in ambush again and again and again.

However, saying that you can miss a backstab and then ninja-teleport behind someone and try another backstab is, to me, very cheesy unless your character is an experienced 35-day elf assassin with AI agility fighting against a super-slow mul or human...and even then.

Backstab, as I see it, requires both knowledge of anatomy and the element of surprise.  This is why you get that prompt after you send in a backstab command.  If you try a backstab, then flee, then hide in the next room and tail the target again in an attempt to land another backstab, that's okay in my book as long as you're not twinky about it.  But backstab isn't just the knowledge that taking a dagger to the heart, throat or through the eye is dangerous.

[Anoyyed Kank]

Look.. I play a Assassin at the moment. Or a guy with the guild Assassin anyway.... and I think this post stupid. One: It is realistic to stab someone in the back more than one day! in fact it is realistic if you're quick enough to backstab someone twice in a fight.  Because backstabs are suprise attacks, aiming for weak spots in the opponents anatomy, and sneaking up behind someone. In fact I've used backstab against a animal before, twice in a row. And that's because my character knew weak spots in the animals anatomy, and sneaked up on him the first time. This is realistic, and plausible. There is nothing to say it's not.

[not so anoyyed kank]

Look.. I play a Assassin at the moment. Or a guy with the guild Assassin anyway.... and I think this post stupid. One: It is realistic to stab someone in the back more than one day! in fact it is realistic if you're quick enough to backstab someone twice in a fight.  Because backstabs are suprise attacks, aiming for weak spots in the opponents anatomy, and sneaking up behind someone. In fact I've used backstab against a animal before, twice in a row. And that's because my character knew weak spots in the animals anatomy, and sneaked up on him the first time. This is realistic, and plausible. There is nothing to say it's not.

P.S: Just to note I don't think this thread is stupid, but the people who say it's not alright maybe a bit vague on there views. I think this thread is good.

[Cenghiz]

Using backstab on an animal twice? Err.. forgive me but...

1. Outdoor rooms are not rooms assassins can sneak and hide. So, your character does not know to blend in aside a rock or level with the scrubs. You fled, then came back -and the creature saw it, because assassins do not get outdoors sneak and hide- then surprised the creature that actually sees you, possibly even trampling at you? You told the animal "Look behind you! A silt horror!!"?
2. Even at the first attempt, if you aimed surprise, how could you surprise something that's totally aware of you?
3. Knowing animals' anatomy.. Good for you. But, how? Did your assassin even have 'skin', which's crucial to cut up an animal and examine its anatomy? Without cutting up, how could your assassin know where the heart, kidneys, lungs etc. is?
As an example, let's imagine one assassin aims a backstab against a bug. You know that most bugs can still reflexively react for some time even without a brain? (cut off the head of a fly, it still reacts to your touches, even the air currents for long. Stick a needle at its head and it keeps on living as a normal fly.. I know, I was a emotionless torture-fetish bitch in Bio labs but they were boring.) Brain is not crucial. There's possibly only trakea (I'm not sure about the spelling but the system which only has air channels through a bug's body to carry the air) system for respiration which disables any targetting to stop breathing. There's the exoskeleton everywhere, leaving nearly no weak spots if one corpse is not carefully examined before.
I don't think someone not knowing 'skin' should backstab at animals if he doesn't have a friend who hunts daily and knows a lot about animals.. Especially someone already having high archery skill would help more, since that person would know all the spots to aim at for critical arrow-shots.
[Edited to add]
4. Outdoor rooms are 'large'... You need to move from nearly a league to stabbing distance without being noticed, or at least without getting the creature aggravated. If one knew about [insert non-aggie, non-autofleeing NPC animal here] anatomy and moved aside it, offered the creature a tuber, then backstabbed the creature after he emoted the creature approaching, it would be plausible. It would be even way too original and realistic and I would _love_ it. You really think your scenario is fitting to your character's and the animal's abilities and behaviour?
[/Edited to add]
5. I hate when someone charges in hiding his identity to call other people's ideas 'stupid'.. I feel it's fine not to leak IC info, but I find it cheasy and coward when someone logs out just to call other people 'stupid', 'whining' etc.

[Malifaxis]

Look.. I play a Assassin at the moment. Or a guy with the guild Assassin anyway.... and I think this post stupid. One: It is realistic to stab someone in the back more than one day! in fact it is realistic if you're quick enough to backstab someone twice in a fight. Because backstabs are suprise attacks, aiming for weak spots in the opponents anatomy, and sneaking up behind someone. In fact I've used backstab against a animal before, twice in a row. And that's because my character knew weak spots in the animals anatomy, and sneaked up on him the first time. This is realistic, and plausible. There is nothing to say it's not.

Incredible.  So your character took down an animal of the species, carefully dissected it, and studied where the internal organs were and the bone structures and exactly which gooey bits hurt the worst?

Sorry pal, but I just don't see it your way.  If someone sucker punches me (which has happened before) then I sure as Hell am not going to let them get the drop on me a second time anytime soon... not that hour, not that day, and certainly not that very same fight.

Unless the animal that you backstabbed twice was blind, deaf, and dazed, I don't see any way that you should have been able to do that.  An animal will instinctively do everything it can to lessen its vulnerability, especially when wounded.  Most of them could smell its own blood dripping from your blade if you ran away and came back, or would hear far more of your approach than any humanoid would.

Justify what you're doing, if you want, but to me it reeks of twinkiness.

[flurry]

Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about how you roleplay multiple backstab attempts.

The way I look at it, a "backstab" is a surprise attack, done with the intent of killing (and backed up by some expertise of how to do it).

I can understand maybe getting in a second attempt after running off and regrouping, if the victim is already pretty injured or extraordinarily careless.  But really - more than one or twice?  Unless they are practically dead already, I don't see it.  Especially if other people are around.  How are you going to regain the element of surprise over and over again?   I'd like to see someone explain how you could surprise the same person multiple times in one scene in that way.   If there is a realistic justification, more power to you, but it's hard to imagine.

[Morrolan]

[/flamewar]

What is unclear from this thread is whether our erstwhile assassin was alone.  If he or she was, then use of backstab might be a problem.  If not?  Well, it might be a different story.
[flamewar]

Okay, back to it, folks.

Morrolan

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I like the 'art of surprise' idea behind backstab. I've never played a backstabbing character personally, but I'm currently playing around with sap, which is similar in a lot of ways. Since it is entirely possible to have the skill without sneak/hide, I would like to think there is enough room for interpretation to get the job done. For example, say I emoted sucker punching someone, then lifting ~mace while they were recovering. Is that good show, or am I being twinking for finding an excuse to use a sneaky skill on someone who is looking me in the face?

As for the poll, I don't like the idea of someone backstabbing someone, sneaking in and out, then backstabbing again. Or however such a string of activities would play out. Backstab is hardcore... The entire idea behind it is the single strike that will drop, or nearly drop, your opponent. If you fuck it up, that's it. You've ruined this particular opportunity. If they chase you, and you lie in wait somewhere, that's great. Amushing someone out from behind a heap of decay is a wonderful use of the skill, I believe. But riddling the same person (or animal) over and over again with backstabs in the same fight doesn't sit right with me.

[HunterKiller]

I have my own opinion on what's right and wrong here but it's really on a case-by-case basis.  But, just because I can't resist, if an ass is fleeing and re-entering the room to perform a backstab, I'd be very interested to hear how they're justifying that.  If the victim flees to another location and the ass meets back up with them, then fine, redo the backstab.  

It's the same with all rogues and their skills.  A thief can't re-enter a room after a failed steal and steal from the same person (stealing from anyone within the vacinity of a failed steal isn't very wise or good form either).  Same general rules for all guilds really.  Magickers can't spam casts until they get one right, merchants can't spam offer continually until they get a good price (this was fixed a few years ago, before that you could just keep trying, heh).

Just for clarification, a backstab doesn't mean someone gets stabbed in the back, it means a someone got hit critically by surprise.  Hit somewhere on their body, and they weren't expecting it.  A lot of newbies get confused by that since the spam messages that follow make assumptions as to how you pulled off the move.  It's really up to the assassin to decide where they hit since the victim doesn't get much of a say.  If it's a real life-death fight then the assassin probably won't take the time to make that clarification emote during the fight though unless they had it prepared already.  

Never played a 'rinther, happy rinthing.    :-)

- HK

[Ava]

The twink in the dark, hooded cloak backstabs the heck out of the honorable soldier.
The twink in the dark, hooded cloak flees west.
The twink in the dark, hooded cloak has arrived from the west.
The twink in the dark, hooded cloak backstabs the heck out of the honorable soldier.
...

How's this for a quick, probably-easy-to-do coded solution:
- If the stabber is NOT hidden and the victim is wielding a weapon, backstab is likely to fail.
- If the stabber is hidden, backstab works as usual.

This seems to me like it would work pretty intuitively:
- Assassin walks up to victim in the pub, asks him the time, and backstabs.
- Victim doesn't die, draws sword, and prepares to open a can.
- Assassin flees, returns, and is unable to get in another backstab.

If you're actually worried about being stabbed again (OP: "nervous, jumpy, and alert"), you *should* have your weapons out and be scanning like crazy.  Likewise, if the attacker really can sneak back into the room and hide without you noticing, you're legitimately dead meat.

Another possibility: instead of using weapon-holding to foil repeat-backstabbing, use the "You're too excited to quit!" timer that seems to be turned on after combat.

[HunterKiller]

Likewise, if the attacker really can sneak back into the room and hide without you noticing, you're legitimately dead meat.

A thief can successfully re-enter and fail a steal from its 2nd time victim and fail a steal from them again, but it's commonly construed as bad form to do this as a thief.  Just because the code lets you doesn't mean you should, is my point.

Besides, a rogue's sneak and hide are not based IC'ly on being "hidden" per se, even though the code makes it seem this way.  A lot of a rogue's sneak and hide are based on blending in with the environment and its people, the fundamental way it's different than wilderness sneak and hide.  If you've been backstabbed, it's very likely people will back away from the icky bloody, almost-dead guy.  This makes a reappearing ass very lonely, sneaking around in that wide open dead space that's just been created, to say nothing of the sudden alertness of the victim.  I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying it better be a pretty believable situation because it wouldn't be easy for that backstabber to repeat his attempt.

- HK

[RunningMountain]

As a side note I haven't read anything but the poll. But just to say, I remember back in the day if an NPC/PC was low enough on hp you could no longer backstab them. You got the stock message:
They are hurt and suspicious.

But that was a long time ago and has since been changed for one reason or another, maybe a coder can chime in, because it's been changed for a while.

RM

[Synthesis]

Help Backstab wrote:

This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent.
The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the
attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully
backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will
be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's
backstab skill level.

Note that this says nothing about being sneaky, sneaking up, hiding...nothing.  It's a critical strike.  It's roughly equivalent to a warrior landing a brutal slash, in my opinion.

It certainly helps when you've got the element of surprise (and the code reflects this), but it isn't necessary.  It is a roguish critical strike, and anything else you want to roleplay it as is your own business.  You can "backstab" a person as many times as the code will allow.  Should you? Maybe.  The code doesn't set a limit for how many times a warrior can bash, kick, or disarm you, and most people are pretty liberal with their usage of these commands, especially when their succeeding is a matter of life and death (hell, even when it's not).  Sure, backstab can be nasty, but it has severe downsides, too.  (I lost a l337 backstabbing, heartbreaking, ass-whipping assassin a long time ago simply due to the command lag, so don't think it can't happen to you.)  Sure, there are aesthetically pleasing limits within which you should probably stay, but let's be honest with ourselves here:  if the only chance you have at survival is to spam backstab or kick or disarm or bash, chances are, you're going to go down backstabbing and kicking and disarming and bashing and doing whatever the hell it takes to get out alive.  The code sets a maximum limit, and since the limit can be changed, we can infer that the Imms are pleased with the limit as it is, for now.

Edited again to add:  Regarding backstabbing animals.  There are at least two ways to get close enough to a critter to backstab it, and that's on your own.  As far as "vital organs" go...well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where to stab something to make it hurt, and the code will likely reflect your lack of knowledge for a long time.  Personally, I think if you're an assassin (even an assassin/hunter) on your own in the wilderness, you're a damn fool, with the recent changes to the storm and mount codes.  You'd be safer randomly backstabbing NPCs in the city. Trust me.  If you're with your crew in the boonies, fine. Stab away.  Just be sure to emote a little, so your buddies can get a clear picture of exactly what it is you're doing to that poor little tregil.

Edited to add:  Basically, if you're getting whipped by someone repeatedly backstabbing you, you're probably not good enough or smart enough to beat them toe-to-toe, anyway.  It's one thing to backstab;flee;backstab against an NPC...it's a whole different ballgame against a PC.  Especially one who knows what he's doing.  So, backstab spammers, beware.  You may think you've found a clever way to beat the system...but you'll get yours.  Oh, yes...you'll get yours.  If for no other reason than "what goes around comes around."  Trust me...you ain't the only one with the backstab skill, and some of us have been playing for a looooooooooooooooong time, with more PKills than you have PCs under your belt.  Think about it.  Think real hard.

Because, speaking for myself, it only takes one lame, twinking fool for me to take the gloves off, and I've killed many, many more than have killed me.

[Ritley]

I totally agree with Synthesis. It's a critical strike, that's why skilled assassin's can do it while fighting. I personally have had people with guild assassin who worked as hunters and stuff, none of them were actual assassins. (and no they didn't normally use backstab against the animals, but tended to throw a weapon at the animals.... like a spear. Because it's perfectly realistic to throw something at a animal. I might've used backstab once or twice on the animals because like Synthesis says, it doesn't take a genius to work out a animals vital parts... I.E the neck. What do you guys think? do you think it's realistic to backstab animals?

P.S: Oh on the note of it's not safe for a assassin to go out on his own, I totally agree it's not safe, but ICly the guy will not know he has the guild Assassin, and think it's totally safe to go out. And so even if it's not safe for someone with the guild assassin to go out, they ICly don't know that, so they should still go out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The skill of Backstab is inaccurately named, and if it is not, then it should be taken out. It should be named, Strike, simply.

The skill of Backstab is a skill just like kick and bash and disarm, etc, and the Immortals do not agree, but I'm telling you, for it to be a skill in any other aspect is not cool.

I've played Assassins, and I was very good in H2H, but I never got any good at BackStab, and that's because of the constant crap about BackStab. Don't use this, not here, not in sparring, etc....

I don't think anyone good with BackStab has not twinked in the eyes of the staff. I may be wrong, shit, I prolly am, but I never could figure up how to do it right. Therefore, I'll never play another. I feel like if I can't play it right, there's no use in playing it at all, since I'm no twink.

I'm trying something else now I've never tried, and I hope I can play it cool. But we'll see.

[Ritley (lazy)]

The skill of Backstab is inaccurately named, and if it is not, then it should be taken out. It should be named, Strike, simply.

The skill of Backstab is a skill just like kick and bash and disarm, etc, and the Immortals do not agree, but I'm telling you, for it to be a skill in any other aspect is not cool.

I've played Assassins, and I was very good in H2H, but I never got any good at BackStab, and that's because of the constant crap about BackStab. Don't use this, not here, not in sparring, etc....

I don't think anyone good with BackStab has not twinked in the eyes of the staff. I may be wrong, shit, I prolly am, but I never could figure up how to do it right. Therefore, I'll never play another. I feel like if I can't play it right, there's no use in playing it at all, since I'm no twink.

I'm trying something else now I've never tried, and I hope I can play it cool. But we'll see.

I agree with you in someways, but not in others. I mean it's true that it's hard to get to use backstab, but it's not the staff that tell us not too. I agree it shouldn't be used in sparring, but I think it can be used on animals and when in hunting, unless anyone has any arguments against me.

[Agent_137]

P.S: Oh on the note of it's not safe for a assassin to go out on his own, I totally agree it's not safe, but ICly the guy will not know he has the guild Assassin, and think it's totally safe to go out. And so even if it's not safe for someone with the guild assassin to go out, they ICly don't know that, so they should still go out.

everyone in zalanthas knows it's not safe for ANYONE to go out of the gates alone.

that's why there are so many people in the cities dealing with the templars and the filth and the overpopulation and the starvation. because IT'S EVEN WORSE OUT THERE.

[Ritley]

P.S: Oh on the note of it's not safe for a assassin to go out on his own, I totally agree it's not safe, but ICly the guy will not know he has the guild Assassin, and think it's totally safe to go out. And so even if it's not safe for someone with the guild assassin to go out, they ICly don't know that, so they should still go out.

everyone in zalanthas knows it's not safe for ANYONE to go out of the gates alone.

that's why there are so many people in the cities dealing with the templars and the filth and the overpopulation and the starvation. because IT'S EVEN WORSE OUT THERE.

I know, but that wasn't my point.

[Anonymous]

Because, speaking for myself, it only takes one lame, twinking fool for me to take the gloves off, and I've killed many, many more than have killed me.

Sometimes I wonder if this is what Armageddon is for a large fraction of the players: the search for a "lame twinking fool" to feel superior to.

Also, to give this kind of label to someone for some things done while playing a game, quite possibly in good conscience because she is still trying to "get it", and thereby denigrating her entire existence is an extreme overreaction.

[Anonymous]

Because, speaking for myself, it only takes one lame, twinking fool for me to take the gloves off, and I've killed many, many more than have killed me.

Also, this suggests that your actions in-game are influenced by your OOC perceptions and inclinations, which is not the hallmark of good roleplay. Shouldn't you be writing the account instead?

Too bad you threw this in, because the rest of your post was decent reading.

[spawnloser]

I think this is one of those situations where the person has broken an OOC trust issue...so you will no longer allow the the courtesy you would any other player...you'll fight them on their terms, which you know better than them.

...that sort of thing.