Roleplaying Backstab

[elvenchipmunk]

I personally don't see any problem backstabbing animals. In the backstab help file, it reads:

"This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent.
The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'"

Animals may have different anatomies, but they still have weak-points, and if you are good enough at backstab, you should be able to tell how you can drop -anything- and where to hit them in one blow. The code already reflects this IMO (You start off shitty, so you can't really tell where to hit them. As you get better, you learn where to hit them).

Even in these cases, though, discretion should definitely be used. I'm definitely not for people doing the good old

Code Select Expand

sneak;e;backstab sorceror;disen;hide;backstab sorceror;disen;hide etc. But, not my place to say whether that's proper or not.

[Dalmeth]

Alot of emphasis is given on studying anatomy when talking about traing backstab, but the truth is, the real skill behind backstab is approaching your target and striking where you want to strike.  Given that, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to backstab animals.

Also, you might want to stop and think a moment about how those who backstab and retreat might be burglars who have learned the skill.  It seems to me that burglars have even less proficiency in combat than assassins.

That said, I think it's utter crap to backstab and retreat against NPCs who are never going to move.

[Angela Christine]

I'd be opposed to practicing backstab on kanks, but not on erdlus.  

Insectoids are just too alien, what with the exoskeleton and all.  But most mammals, lizards and other animals that live on land (don't fly or swim)  and have a spine are basically put together out of the same kind of bits.  Sliding your dagger between a jozhal's ribs is similar to doing the same thing to a human, but perhaps even slightly more difficult because jozhals are smaller and jumpier than most humans.


Angela Christine

[Morfeus]

Eh, careful, Xygax.  You might not remember the people getting karma nerfed for buying a kank, taking it outside the gates by three rooms, and backstabbing it, but I do.

Why would anyone want to buy an expencive animal and then just kill it few steps out the gate? I mean, are you sure this karma-nerfing was about the backstab itself?

[Dalmeth]

Insectoids are just too alien, what with the exoskeleton and all.  But most mammals, lizards and other animals that live on land (don't fly or swim)  and have a spine are basically put together out of the same kind of bits.  Sliding your dagger between a jozhal's ribs is similar to doing the same thing to a human, but perhaps even slightly more difficult because jozhals are smaller and jumpier than most humans.

If you run an insect through with something, it's just as bad off as a reptile or mammal.  If you just figure out where a ganglion or two is, maybe the lungs or a few other systems, and you've got it made.  Hell, you could probably slice up a few joints and leave the thing crippled.

See?  It's that simple.  Learn a little about your target, alot abot how to run up to it, and you've got a good thing going : backstab.

[Inky]

I'm still looking for a way to actually train the damn skill.

Backstabbing in sparring isn't allowed and attacking NPCs on the rinth or the wastes just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'll drop a series of hints to my clan leaders but they just tell me to go sparring with everyone else.

I once sent a few logs to the mud email in which my character detailed some of his knowledge on knife-work. But I never got an answer back.

Please let me know if you guys find something, allright?

[Anarchy]

Stop thinking of the skillset as a table-top rogue assassin. It is a skillset, yes. And it is a skill set for rogues. But it doesn't demand we RP it out in a certain way. If we have ranger merchants/guards/aids, etc then an assassin can be a hunter/warrior/aids also. Do not allow the skillset and conception of the guild decide your roleplay.

I say roleplay the use of backstab however you like. Be it a warrior who when faced with an enemy uses speed and wit to get past their foe's shield/defences, or a hunter who lies in waiting, buried in the sand until a duskhorn grazes nearby, leaping up and gutting the poor creature, or, of course, a thief who stabs people in the back.

If I want to play a hunter who knows how to serious wound animals/what have you in the form of the coded skill backstab - guess what. Im going to, and no player here is going to stop me, with the exception of the staff (who i dont believe have a stance currently)

I am a nurse by profession, so believe me when i say i have seen my fair share of knife-wounds. All you really need to do to serious hurt someone is get an object more then 3 inches into the body. You have muscles that can be cut and damaged, blood loss and shock can all be used to describe the damage "Backstab" Can do. It doesn't just have to be a killing blow, even if it has the ability to do it.

[Anonymous]

I just can't understand why you think there are any skills in the game that can be trained without roleplaying.  This is an RP-required MUD.

-- X

I'm sorry Xygax, I must not have been clear enough.

What I meant was this.

Some people here are saying that THE ONLY WAY to train backstab should be via roleplaying and sending a log to the immortals showing that you have been practicing and asking them to raise your skill level.

Is there any other single skill that people are suggesting SHOULD NEVER be trained by ACTUALLY using the command? I have been scanning through the boards and havent seen one.

If typing "backstab blah" is wrong or cant be justified in any way other than using it to kill a vicitm or play a psycho mass murderer;
If the only way to increase this skill (barring being a mass murderer) is by submitting logs to the IMMS

THEN

Perhaps it should be a karma required class. Either of these things are expecting a lot from a n00b.

It isnt a karma required class so should we assume that practicing on friends or via hit and run are ok?

[Xygax]

Thanks for clarifying.  As I said above, there is nothing wrong with using backstab while hunting.  (Frankly, I don't even care if you backstab a million kanks -- though that seems like an expensive approach to training)

-- X

[ShaLeah]

Perhaps it should be a karma required class. Either of these things are expecting a lot from a n00b.

It isnt a karma required class so should we assume that practicing on friends or via hit and run are ok?

I always thought it should be, at least a karma 1 or 2. I don't think a newbie right out of hack and slash land should be playing that role.

[Dalmeth]

I always thought it should be, at least a karma 1 or 2. I don't think a newbie right out of hack and slash land should be playing that role.

Why not?  They'll get killed soon enough.

[spawnloser]

...and in the meantime, cause a bit of chaos, not to mention being jarringly silly as most noob assassins are.

[Jakahri]

...and in the meantime, cause a bit of chaos, not to mention being jarringly silly as most noob assassins are.

The same could be said of any new player who is getting acclimated to the game environment.

"Newb" dwarven warriors going on a killing spree in the 'rinth or in the streets of either city-state is just as bad. Let's not start limiting what roles are open to new players.

[spawnloser]

There are plenty of roles still open to them.  Personally, I think that anyone's first character should be limited to human and in one of the two major city-states.  I mean just the first character, here, not that's the only bit available with 0 karma.  New players bitch about how hard stuff is, well, let's make sure they're in a populated area with plenty of role-models and oppurtunities to learn what the game is all about?

I'd personally restrict merchant guild and assassin from new characters, too.  These two guilds almost REQUIRE knowledge of the game world to do successfully.

You know what?  There's still a few options (and really, there are still thousands of options, because race and guild don't make a character, they're only two pieces of the character), and I don't think those options are too bad at all for someone that needs to learn still.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be a chicken and the egg paradox happening here. Does the role define the skills or do the skills define the role.

I'd be willing to argue that skills define the role for one reason. If the role did not define the skills, the skills would not be organized into guilds.

If the makers of the game really wanted us to freely form our roles as Annarchy suggested they would have given us a free-form skill system that doesen't make use of guilds and primary skills.

Secondly, one guild could never defeat another guild at it's intended role. Sure an assasin could pull off being a ranger until he comes against another ranger in the wild. Or a burglar could train in the t'zai byn for awhile but never come close to a warrior's fighting abilitiy. Their right when they say you can mix up your roles anyway you want.

But if you actually want to compete you'll need to specialize in your guild's primary skills. And for the most part, this works well. Warriors are good at fighting, pick-pockets are good at theft, merchants are the best crafters/sellers and etc. This seems to work fine for the most part.

The problem occurs with the assasin class. Judging from recent posts, the assasin guild does not make the best silencer. If you want someone dead you don't go find a skilled assasin to use backstab on him. You find a skilled warrior and lock him in a room with your enemy. I think this is th problem.

Maybe I'm just jaded from IC experience and posts made on the GDB. But from what I've seen, the above is the typical example.

As for the ambiguity with training backstab I think it's the same reason with the training of archery. I have feeling that because both skills are potentially very powerful, they are impossible to train without the danger of a lawless zone. Immz feel free to bore a proboscis into my skull if I'm way off on this.

[ThirdEye]

During my time with a fairly long-lived assassin, I found it extremely hard to actually finish the job. Backstab can bring them down a few hps but then my offence sucked, couldn't land a hit and lost almost every time, to PCs and NPCs both.

[Kalden]

Assassins are not that hard to train. Play in the 'rinth, get involved, live on the margin.

[Inky]

The last guest post was made by me.

[joyofdiscord]

During my time with a fairly long-lived assassin, I found it extremely hard to actually finish the job. Backstab can bring them down a few hps but then my offence sucked, couldn't land a hit and lost almost every time, to PCs and NPCs both.

Then you aren't trying hard enough, or are going about it wrong.  I had a long-lived burglar who never even branched backstab and he was -quite- the effective killer when necessary.

[amoeba]

There are plenty of roles still open to them.  Personally, I think that anyone's first character should be limited to human and in one of the two major city-states.

I can tell you with no uncertainty, had I been limited to only this option, I would never have even tried arm.  I doubt I am the only one.

[ThirdEye]

During my time with a fairly long-lived assassin, I found it extremely hard to actually finish the job. Backstab can bring them down a few hps but then my offence sucked, couldn't land a hit and lost almost every time, to PCs and NPCs both.

Then you aren't trying hard enough, or are going about it wrong.  I had a long-lived burglar who never even branched backstab and he was -quite- the effective killer when necessary.

Not true. His backstab got pretty damn amazing. Had a couple one hit kills, but if I couldn't finish with stab then I was gonna have a rough time.....Hmmmm, maybe it was just because I was fighting rather tough PCs

[Cenghiz]

If you could not raise backstab that much, then flee and use 'shadow' to follow the victim to where he'll rest then retry, use poison on your knife or simply find a brute partner for yourself.

If my krathi cannot kill something with fireballs, he tries another way, or he finds an elkran ally.. This is the usual way to solve problems.

[Kruise]

Just a litle spark on the already heated debate

Has anyone thought of cheapshot fighting? What if our assassin friend has thrown his first backstab and his mark doesn't die, draws a blade and gets ready to open a can (I love that). Our assassin friend thinking he wants this fight over as quickly as possible, uses his advantage of positioning and readiness to knee the mark in the nads, stomp on his foot, elbow the mark in the gut. Anything to throw the mark off guard while he's jerking his sword out (I personally like the elbow to the gut approach)  and using the genuine keeling over response to stab our friend the mark in choice locations once or twice more?

Editted for insight: Final words my backstab using wannabe ninja assassin buddies. Throw a little variety in your technique. That backstab not killing your mark? Use poison or when you run, hurl something pointy and sharp, or hard and heavy towards the mark instead of doing this ridiculous flee and backstab thing. Its lame and puts assassin PC's everywhere to shame by lowering the standard. Now then....the only remote way I'd accept this fleeting tralala movement (backstab, flee backstab, flee, emote makes a rude hand gesture and backstabs you, flee) as a pheasible technique is if you were in a dark secluded place where you could see your target but they couldn't see you. Anyone seen horror flicks? The evil flash-across-the-screen-as-a-dark-mishappen-blur movement might actually be possible for an experienced killer in his own element....but don't make a habit of doing it elsewhere.

Misaki out.