Roleplaying Backstab

[LoD]

I agree.
Let's fix it by making backstab easy to do, hard to learn?

Wouldn't that be what it is now?

I don't think any changes are needed for backstab.  It plays its role, provides  a couple of classes with a unique tool and doesn't seem to off balance the game in any gross way.  Why add work to something that isn't broken?

-LoD

[Ghost]

There is another discussion again backstab, and I see very similar points are being covered.  So I won't touch there.

But in response to original post, I don't see anything wrong with backstabbing the same person twice, or more.  Especially if it is done on PCs.  Because a PC has the advantage of fast-thinking and quick-retailating being behind the character, just like the assassin does.  So if an assassin has backstabbed you, scored a hit, and if you just whacked him a bit in melee, then he fled, yes, he might come again and score a hit.  So you better solve the problem real quick.

1) Bash the assassin.  Do not let him freely run away and come back, and do what he does the best in his career.
2) You hit him first.  The code does give you the advantage over that.  The assassin has to be measuring his strike or surprising you with a feint, sure.  So he needs time (codewise, it is the backstab delay), and you should not give him that time.  Follow him where he ran to, you hit first, and do not give him time to use a trick.
3)  If you think you might not survive another hit, and if you think the assassin was too quick in fleeing and quicker in hiding, then you run too.  Run away, and keep moving.  Do not slow down, and give the assassin a chance to spot your flank again.

Basically this is all you should be doing.  An assassin might flee, and backstab you again, but you have enough options to stop that.  Since you have some way to avoid it, it can not be unfair from the assassin's point of view.

In the case of NPCs, it still can be considered a fair game.  Why, most of the NPCs get aggro once you attack them, and follow after you, and attack you anyway.  Since they do not have any delay, they have a pretty good chance to avoid your second backstab anyway.  Still, I can understand if someone does not like a multiple backstabber if he is doing it to kill an NPC, because NPCs are like mindless zombies and staff can't be watching would be assassins all the day to make it realistic from the NPCs point of view.

[Rindan]

You can even make a case for an assassin fleeing from combat, running back into the room, and trying for another backstab - backstab is not directly linked to sneak and / or hide. There is no requirement to be hidden to backstab. There is no requirement to be sneaking to backstab. There is a delay before and after backstab - plenty of delay for an alert PC to either move or make the first attack.

Fleeing against non-aggressive npcs and re-backstabbing is a lot like standing in the room next to some wild beasty and tossing knives at them or shooting them with arrows. So, if someone considers re-backstabbing lame then I hope they consider shooting at a living target a few times the same way. Some self restraint is probably a good idea.

Backstabbing against animated npcs or PCs - go nuts. The code handles those last few steps and you can imagine them to be anything you like - from someone up on their tippy-toes to feinting in one direction to lure a person to expose a weak spot.

I don't see much wrong with backstabbing animals - you are going through the basic movements of the attack. It is the same as kick being used on a gith, halfling, half-giant, scrab, or bahamet. The basic mechanism of the kick is the same although where one kicks differs.

But in response to original post, I don't see anything wrong with backstabbing the same person twice, or more. Especially if it is done on PCs. Because a PC has the advantage of fast-thinking and quick-retailating being behind the character, just like the assassin does. So if an assassin has backstabbed you, scored a hit, and if you just whacked him a bit in melee, then he fled, yes, he might come again and score a hit. So you better solve the problem real quick.

In the case of NPCs, it still can be considered a fair game. Why, most of the NPCs get aggro once you attack them, and follow after you, and attack you anyway. Since they do not have any delay, they have a pretty good chance to avoid your second backstab anyway. Still, I can understand if someone does not like a multiple backstabber if he is doing it to kill an NPC, because NPCs are like mindless zombies and staff can't be watching would be assassins all the day to make it realistic from the NPCs point of view.

So... from this conversation I have gathered the following.

1)  You can launch a backstab at any time.  Backstab is a code word for "launching critical strike on any opponent at any time, regardless if they know it is coming or not".  So, if the warrior is dropped into a combat stance and beckoning you to come get some you can backstab him past his readied weapons and in the face.

2)  If an NPC or PC doesn't stop you from performing a follow up backstab, that is their fault.  NPCs and PCs that don't implicitly type kill can not stop your attempted backstab.  They are fair game.  You can use backstab against a target as many time as the target lets you.  If it is a stupid NPC that doesn't agro once you flee and return, that is okay.  Backstab away.

3)  This isn't a city based skill.  It is a-okay to do it in the desert, city, or anywhere the code lets you.  If you can type 'backstab' and get a hit off before something stops you, it is fair game.

4)  Backstabbing animals is a fine way to get awesome at backstab.  This is a fine way for an assassin to learn the fine art of sneaking up on someone and killing them.  You can use killing stuff in the desert as a valid method of training.

So, next time I want to make a Kuraci assassin I am gathering that it is a-okay to run find an animal, backstab it, flee, back stab, flee, rinse and repeat until it is dead.  This is good RPed use of backstab as it simply is a critical strike that can be performed on anything that doesn't jump into combat with you before the delay finishes.  Further, this is a perfectly reasonable to train backstab.

I take back everything I said about backstab being hard to train because there is no realistic way to train.  If the above is a-okay and realistic, then backstab is a terribly easy skill to train.  Go make a northerner, wander out into the plains, and just stab back stabbing stuff.  RP out that you are training to become a super elite assassin while you do this, and everything will be fine and realistic.

I personally always suffered under the delusional belief that the path to being an assassin came through constant RPed training with the occasional coded assassin game with a partner.  Turns out alls I needed was a desert, a knife, and a few NPCs.

[Ghost]

I will not argue on animal killing NPCs.  There might be some instances an assassins going on animals can be called fair.  So I would rather not go and argue whether it is bad RP or not for an assassin to go backstabbing animals.  In general, assassins are not meant to be lurking in the wilderness looking for a kill.  Their skills are meant to be used in the cities, and it is not very reasonable for an assassin to be backstabbing animals just because he can.  But there might be a reason.  I think a year or so ago, some anon poster started a backstab thread with a long post, explaining how reasonable for his character to use backstab on animals.  It is a whole different thread to talk about whether it is realistic to be assassin-hunting-animals than just mentioning it as a derailment here, I think.

In the case of original post again, I will restate my opinion:  It is a fair game if it is done on PCs.

For first, fleeing from combat is not running away for miles.  It is backing away from the fight.  The code does not support you from breaking the combat, by retreating several meters, you have to flee all the way to the other room.  Realistically, you can fight somebody in the same room, breaking from the fight, and starting again all over the room.  But code does not give you that.  That is why it looks silly, running away a room and coming back.  It might quite be like, you are stepping away from the melee range, and just returning back into it.
It is even more silly in the desert (because of the desert rooms being rather huge), since in the desert you are running away like a few miles away just to stop punching someone.  Which is ridiculous beyond words.

Second, surprising someone a second time is not that difficult.  Back away from the fight, if the guy is chasing after you and trying to keep it in melee, make a sharp turn, there you have your surprise element.  If your opponent is standing there , and not following after you backed away from the fight, stop, watch his movements.  And start launching into melee, keep watching his move, make a feint, and attempt a strike from where he is not expecting.  If your opponent is running away from you after you backed away, start following, catch him, stab in the back.

Anyone read Salvatore?  In the book, "The halfling's gem" there is a fight of a master assassin and blademaster.  And the assassin does surprise his victim twice.. (or was it more?)
So realistically I think you can picture the action in your mind.  I can picture it in my mind.  

And if it is realistic, all we are left is with the code.  Codewise, the assassin does get the penalty of the backstab delay for running away and closing in for another backstab again.  And the defender does get the advantage of choosing whether running away, or avoiding, or pressing on first to not give the assassin that advantage, or can press on the assassin (bash) to not give him the chance to back away from the fight.

If an NPC or PC doesn't stop you from performing a follow up backstab, that is their fault. NPCs and PCs that don't implicitly type kill can not stop your attempted backstab. They are fair game. You can use backstab against a target as many time as the target lets you. If it is a stupid NPC that doesn't agro once you flee and return, that is okay. Backstab away.

I am not saying it is PC/NPC's fault.  I am saying there are ways to avoid it.  Against a PC I do believe it is a fair game.  Against an NPC, it is more of a gray area, I would rather not say if it is alright or not, but since NPCs are not controlled by someone else, it can be called unfair.  They do have some way to avoid it, but it is not the same as it is with the PCs.

So, what I see is: it is realistic therefore RPable, and the code backs it up.  I think it is a fair game to retreat and attempt a surprise again.
(Can be arguable for some NPCs)

[spawnloser]

This is good RPed use of backstab as it simply is a critical strike that can be performed on anything that doesn't jump into combat with you before the delay finishes.  Further, this is a perfectly reasonable to train backstab.

I take back everything I said about backstab being hard to train because there is no realistic way to train.  If the above is a-okay and realistic, then backstab is a terribly easy skill to train.  Go make a northerner, wander out into the plains, and just stab back stabbing stuff.  RP out that you are training to become a super elite assassin while you do this, and everything will be fine and realistic.

I personally always suffered under the delusional belief that the path to being an assassin came through constant RPed training with the occasional coded assassin game with a partner.  Turns out alls I needed was a desert, a knife, and a few NPCs.

I think the point people were trying to make, Rindan, is that there could be times, with proper RP, that some of these things that people have said are no good, actually would be IC and not twinkish.  There are situations/times...with the proper RP.  Do it like a spam-hunting ranger, you're doing it wrong, yeah.  That's not what anyone is saying.

[Ritley]

Difference is Assassins aren't Ninja's, and the other difference is Assassin's are -not- always city based. Some Assassin's might've spent their whole life learning how to sneak up on animals and backstab 'em. Like some Burglars might've spent most of their time in the forest, learning to cut tree's down.  If a Assassin was like a Ninja who spent their whole life learning how to assinate people, then fair game, but if they are assassin's that hunt... e.t.c, then they should be able to backstab on animals provided they have the experiece.

Burglars who spend all their time cutting down trees don't get good at lock picking.  Assassins that spend all their time trying to sneak in the wilderness don't get good at sneaking inside of a city.  If you really want to play an outdoorsy character, why on earth would you pick an assassin?  Of all the character classes you could possibly pick, assassin has the most city only skills out of them all.

Maybe you can justify backstabbing an animal once.  I still think it is twinky because of the fact that most animals would either try and stomp you or run, but let's suspend disbelief and say that Zalanthas animals tend to not fear humans.  Doing it more then once is flat out coded abuse.  Further, if this is the manner that you train backstabbing, sneaking through the desert to whack an animal probably larger then you are, you have not learned how to do this in a city better then any idiot warrior who walks through the desert and tries to slash an animal across its neck.  So, if someone is going to "train" backstab in the desert, I hope that they don't turn around and use it in a city, as even though their skills might allow it, they have no real IC training as to how to sneak through a crowd and whack a human.

Assassins learn through practice, practice, and practice.  They don't learn by creating a mountain of bodies.  Even if you can justify in your mind taking your Tuluki to Allanak and randomly assassinating the denizens, you still are going to have to create a horrifically unrealistic mountain of corpses to ever get decent at backstabbing.  The trail to being a skilled assassin should not involve a few hundred dead NPCs, animal or otherwise.  With the rules on using practice weapons being what they are for backstab, the only realistic way to ever get good at backstabbing is imm intervention or for the stars to align and to find a master.

Ok, I won't backstab animals then.  That was not my point anyway, I was saying if a assassin trained all his life to hunt animals, he could backstab them. Of course it wouldn't be realistic afterwards to become a assassin for a city, but that was not what I was saying.

Reason I would choose a assassin even if he might be outdoorsy would be according to his background, not how I can get the biggest advantage, and make things easier for myself. So... for example say if his background included him being a assassin once upon a time, but now he wanted to be... let's say... a desert wanderer, I would pick assassin instead of ranger. Reason is because he is more of a assassin in his background than he is ranger.

[LoD]

This is what I got out of your conversation:

So, next time I want to make a Kuraci assassin I am gathering that it is a-okay to run find an animal, backstab it, flee, back stab, flee, rinse and repeat until it is dead.  This is good RPed use of backstab as it simply is a critical strike that can be performed on anything that doesn't jump into combat with you before the delay finishes.  Further, this is a perfectly reasonable to train backstab.

I take back everything I said about backstab being hard to train because there is no realistic way to train.  If the above is a-okay and realistic, then backstab is a terribly easy skill to train.  Go make a northerner, wander out into the plains, and just stab back stabbing stuff.  RP out that you are training to become a super elite assassin while you do this, and everything will be fine and realistic.

I personally always suffered under the delusional belief that the path to being an assassin came through constant RPed training with the occasional coded assassin game with a partner. Turns out alls I needed was a desert, a knife, and a few NPCs.

All people are saying is that there are viable options for the use of backstab outside of the two methods of skill advancement you continue to tout as the only acceptable practices: Imm intervention and RP'd training with a partner.

To reinforce what spawnloser mentioned, there are times when it may be appropriate to hunt quickly, or to disarm in quick succession, or to run and then attempt to grapple someone.  I do believe it would be considered twinkish by players and staff alike to flee;backstab an animal, but not to flee;backstab someone chasing you through an alleyway.  The problem is you cannot label a "practice" as good or bad because there will be situations when it is "bad' and situations when it is "good".

This issue is not black and white, and you simply refuse to see the grey.

-LoD

[Yokunama]

Thank you, Wikipedia.

Assassination Techniques

It is entirely likely that the first strategy used by a political or religious killer was a remarkably simple one: find the leader and stab or bludgeon them to death with whatever weapons were available. This would likely have occurred only in close-knit groups where security was not thought needed, such as amongst nomadic or early sedentary peoples in Mesopotamia where disagreements would be solved with vigilantism (however it is important to note that information from this far back is very sketchy and debatable in nature). As civilization took root, however, any leaders in groups began to have more and more a position of importance, and they would become more detached from the groups they ruled. For the first time, subterfuge would become a major factor in engaging in assassination.

From ancient times, then, through to the medieval period, as the rate of technology was slow so, too, would be the changes in assassins' tactics. Infiltration was now the name of the game, and commonly a would-be killer would attempt to gain access to an official or person's guard or staff and utilize a variety of methods for exterminating them, be it the same close-contact stabbing or smothering or a more advanced method, such as using poison to induce death. This, however, must be distinguished from efforts by a person or group to remove a person in order to replace them in the power structure; for more on this, see coup d'état.

With the advent of gunpowder and far more effective ranged weaponry, however, bodyguards were no longer enough to hold back determined killers, who no longer needed to directly engage or even subvert the guard to kill the leader in question; it could be done from a great distance in a crowded square or even at a church, as with the Pazzi Conspiracy, for example. Often, muskets or rifles might be used to take down a leader from a rooftop, at greater distance, dramatically increasing the chances for survival of an assassin. Also, explosives became increasingly en vogue for deeds requiring a larger touch; for an example of this, see the article on the Gunpowder Plot to blow up Parliament on the state opening.

In whatever case, it is interesting to note that just because more modern methods of killing became available does not mean older ones were replaced; indeed, in nations like India killings by knife or sword remain quite popular, as they do in sub-Saharan Africa (for example, with the machete). In fact, since the development of gunpowder each region of the world seems to have its preferred methods of contract murder; besides those mentioned, explosives are quite popular in not only the Middle East but in most of Europe as well, save Northern Europe where shootings become more common, whereas in the Americas assassinations are almost exclusively performed by gunshot. One can make various cases for any of these, including range, detectability, concealability, likelihood of kill, etc.

As the Renaissance gave way to the Industrial Revolution, assassination became more and more sophisticated, right up to today. Explosives, especially the car bomb, became far more common, and grenades and landmines were not unheard of either, especially in the Middle East and Balkans (the initial attempt on Archduke Franz Ferdinand's life was with a grenade; he was on his way to visit an aide injured in the first attack when his driver stopped to ask directions and he and his wife were shot). Also, Rocket propelled grenades (RPGs) became an especially useful tool, given the popularity of armored cars discussed below. Today, any manner of different techniques for the elimination of an enemy - popular or not - might be utilized; the sky, as it were, is the limit. One remarkable recent example involved a political figure who made the mistake of keeping to a regular route and schedule. Assassins were able to plan for his travel, and detonated an explosive charge beside the roadway, which propelled a metal plate through the target's vehicle at lethal speed, killing him.

One option glamorized in the media is using a sniper rifle, such as the L96. The problem with this method is that using a sniper rifle generally attracts the attention of police and government authorities, which every smart bounty-hunter wishes to avoid. A far more useful tool is the handgun. Deployed correctly and left at the scene of the incident, the completion of the contract can even be portrayed as a suicide.

[Yokunama]

Thank you again, Wikipedia

One of the earliest forms of defense against assassins is without doubt the bodyguard. Essentially, the bodyguard functions as a counter-assassin, attempting to neutralize the killer before they can make contact with or inflict harm upon the "principal", or protected/targeted official. This function was often executed by the leader's most loyal warriors, and was extremely effective throughout most of early human history, to the point where a direct assassination had to be replaced with carefully-planned subterfuge, such as poison (which was answered by the food taster such as the Beefeaters protecting the English monarchs), and even then such methods were often thwarted. Notable examples of bodyguards would include the Roman Praetorian Guard or the Ottoman janissaries — although, in both cases, it should be noted that the protectors often became assassins themselves, exploiting their power to make the head of state a virtual hostage at their whim or eliminating threatening leaders altogether. Indeed, assassinations both then and today are most often effective when they have the support, tacit or open, of other powerful figures. This is less a concern in the West, where organizations such as the British Special Branch and American Secret Service are noted as well-trained and apolitical protective forces. Disloyal protectors continue to be a problem in developing nations, however; Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi met such an end in 1984.

The race was on with the Middle Ages between leaders and assassins as gunpowder became predominant, each in turn trying to develop stronger and better checks against the increasing abilities of the other. One of the first reactions was to simply increase the guard, creating what at times might seem a small army trailing every leader; another was to begin clearing large areas whenever a leader was present, to the point where entire sections of a city might be shut down. Heads of state began to cease taking their armies onto the field personally around this time as well, although this was likely as much due to the increasing skills required for generalship and division of power within the government as it was for safety concerns.

As the 20th century dawned, the prevalence of assassins and their capabilities skyrocketed, and so did measures to protect against them. For the first time, armored cars or armored limousines were put into service for safer transport, with modern versions rendering them virtually invulnerable to small arms fire. Bulletproof vests were also commissioned, though not often used for political reasons. Access to famous persons, too, became more and more restrictive; potential visitors would be forced through dozens of different checks and double-checks before being granted access to the official in question, and as communication became better and information technology more prevalent, it has become next-to-impossible for a would-be killer to get close enough to the personage at work to effect an attempt on his or her life, especially given the common use of metal and bomb detectors. As such most modern assassinations have been committed either during a public performance or during transport, both due to weaker security and security lapses, such as with US President John F. Kennedy or as part of coups d'état where security is either overwhelmed or completely removed, such as with Patrice Lumumba and possibly also Salvador Allende.

Some of the wilder and arguably stranger methods used for protection by famous people of both today and yesterday have evoked many reactions from different people, some resenting the separation from their officials or major figures, some comforted by the security and some lamenting the state of society that such measures are necessary. One example might be traveling in a car protected by a bubble of clear bulletproof glass, such as the Popemobile of Pope John Paul II (built following an extremist's attempt at his life). Frederick William I of Prussia had an entire command of soldiers above two meters of height, and would reportedly go to great lengths to obtain more. Many leaders, such as Josef Stalin or the Argentinean junta were so possessed by paranoia that they executed their opponents en masse, with the death toll ranging from hundreds to millions. Still others go into seclusion, rarely heard from or seen in public afterwards, such as writer Salman Rushdie or eccentric inventor Howard Hughes, though it is more likely that Hughes was concerned about germs than about assassination. A more exotic form of protection is the use of a body double. A body double in this case is a person who is built similar to the person he is expected to protect and made up to look like him. The body double then takes the place of the person in high risk situations. Fidel Castro, Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein are known to have used body doubles.

It is important to note that, in the final analysis, it is thought by many that if a person or group is committed beyond reason or concerns for self-preservation towards the removal of a certain person or leader from not only their position but this plane of existence, then the chances are better than fair that any security measures taken will come to naught. The ninja of Japan and suicide attackers are both groups known for pursuing every avenue for however long necessary to accomplish their 'hit'. Often, such people or groups would operate without concern for their own life in order to gain the slightest chance of eliminating their mark. Certain leaders, notably Abraham Lincoln, were thought to have wrestled with this supposed inevitability during difficult times (with some, like Lincoln's, proving prophetic). In the end it comes down to will - if the will of the would-be assassins to execute their target surpasses that of their security to save them, or the will of the targeted person to survive, then success for a killer may be a matter of time.

[Rindan]

Well LoD, I looked for and found your secret message too.

All people are saying is that there are viable options for the use of backstab outside of the two methods of skill advancement you continue to tout as the only acceptable practices: Imm intervention and RP'd training with a partner.

To reinforce what spawnloser mentioned, there are times when it may be appropriate to hunt quickly, or to disarm in quick succession, or to run and then attempt to grapple someone.  I do believe it would be considered twinkish by players and staff alike to flee;backstab an animal, but not to flee;backstab someone chasing you through an alleyway.  The problem is you cannot label a "practice" as or bad because there will be situations when it is "bad' and situations when it is "good".

This issue is not black and white, and you simply refuse to see the grey.

Sadly, you missed my real secret message.

So, next time I want to make a Kuraci assassin I am gathering that it is a-okay to run find an animal, backstab it, flee, back stab, flee, rinse and repeat until it is dead. This is good RPed use of backstab as it simply is a critical strike that can be performed on anything that doesn't jump into combat with you before the delay finishes. Further, this is a perfectly reasonable to train backstab.

I take back everything I said about backstab being hard to train because there is no realistic way to train. If the above is a-okay and realistic, then backstab is a terribly easy skill to train. Go make a northerner, wander out into the plains, and just stab back stabbing stuff. RP out that you are training to become a super elite assassin while you do this, and everything will be fine and realistic.

I personally always suffered under the delusional belief that the path to being an assassin came through constant RPed training with the occasional coded assassin game with a partner. Turns out alls I needed was a desert, a knife, and a few NPC.

Joking aside, I my core point is that as an assassin, there is a certain lifestyle you are expected to live.  Utterly ignore code for just a few seconds.  If you lived on a vast desert planet where the only centers of civilization were two cities, and you wanted to train to be an assassin for clan X, how would you really do it.  Again, ignoring the game and the code of a moment, what are the steps you would go through to become a better assassin for House Borsail or the Tuluki templarate?  Would any of them involve leaving the city?  Would it involve a partner to train with?  How many times in your life would you really expect to swing your blade with the intent to kill?

These are the questions I ask well before I start asking what the code will allow me to do.  I don't know about you, but when I answer those questions without thought to how the code works or how skills advance, wandering in the desert is roughly the last thing that comes to my mind.  I don't expect an assassin to swing his blade with the intent to murder more then a dozen times in his life.  If you are a super assassin, you might attempt a few dozen kills over the course of your entire life.  

What I see in an assassin is a lifestyle of training and discipline.  Sure, at the end of the road their might be a chance to put your skill to the test, but for the most part it is a mentality of training and practice for a singular purpose of the utmost danger and importance.  I think that when an assassin finally goes to actually kill someone, it isn't the hundredth time he has swung his blade with murder on his mind.  It is his first time or second time.  When your moment of murder came, you would learn a lot.  It wouldn't take a hundred kills to become a master.  An assassin who has made just five kills over the course of his life is veteran, and he probably learned a lot from all five kills.

Now, when we bring code into the game you can certainly kludge into place ways of whacking a few NPCs.  Join Kurac or Byn and go out on patrols and backstab everything you run across.  If you are a lone Tuluki looking to work for the Templerate you can certainly go 'hunting' for skins and 'critical strike' every NPC you hunt in the face.  If you are a 'rinther, well, I am sure you can think of something.

Personally, if I set out to really role play an assassin, I would want to play it as an assassin, not a weak mercenary/soldier who can critical strike people in the face.  My assassins don't go hunting wolves in the woods, and they don't make up reasons to go use the code.  My mercenaries don't slaughter Gith to get better, my pick pockets don't steal things they don't really want or sneak when they don't have to, and my military men don't go out hunting to get better weapon skills.  Thankfully, in all the above instances the code gives you plenty of ways to advance your profession without resorting to blatant NPC slaughter or twinkish behavior.  I don't make an exception for assassins.  If my military guy can live without ever setting foot in the 'rinth or desert, so can my assassins.  That might screw you over code wise unless there is imm intervention, but I think it is better then the alternative.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with Rindan's point of view, and I agree with LoD, as well, since via different view points, you still both come to a realistic solution.

My biggest issue with the current method is the confusion around the entire backstab skill as a whole. Is it safe to train it this way, and can I be IC about it, etc, etc, etc.

This is the reason why I think that either the parameters around the backstab skill must be changed, or, my solution must be put into effect. Doing either of these things should change the murky cloud surrounding the path of a killer.

[Conspiracy Theory]

....you wanted to train to be an assassin for clan X, how would you really do it.  Again, ignoring the game and the code of a moment, what are the steps you would go through to become a better assassin for House Borsail or the Tuluki templarate?

Rindan, I don't necessarily disagree with what you've said. There's only one problem: that entire post of yours assumes that just because your skillset is that of an assassin, this is the kind of life you chose and this is the only kind of life you can choose which could put those skills to work. In truth, anyone of virtually any profession could have this skillset, but only those who fight and kill (or plan to fight and kill) for a living would really put this aspect (critical strikes, surprise attacks, the "backstab" skill) of their talents into play. While instruction may be one way to learn what makes things bleed the most, plain-and-simple personal experience in attempting to make things bleed suddenly and without warning cannot be discredited.

As others have said, no one necessarily believes that backstab should not be used with any amount of personal responsibility and realism in mind, but skill improvement derived from everything aside from the teach command or Immortal intervention should not be ruled out as impossible, unrealistic, and twinky.

If that were actually the case, you'd think that the skill would simply have been made so that it were literally impossible to learn outside of those two methods, which I'm sure would not be difficult at all to code.

[marko]

I was just about to write exactly what Conspiracy Theory wrote.

A class does not make the role

The most successful assassins that I've ever known about in Arm were not assassin class.

Being a successful assassin is a different discussion than talking about the backstab skill.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The most successful assassins that I've ever known about in Arm were not assassin class.

If what you say is true, and it applies to the mud as a whole, then the assassin class is underpowered.

Why does a class called "assassin" even exist if it's easier to become an assassin by selecting another class?

The fact that you don't have to live your life as an assassin if you pick the assassin class is rather irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The fact that there's a dusty post in Ask the Staff which asks for a realistic way to train the backstab skill that none of the staff saw fit to respond to, is more relevant.

I have to agree with Rindan that if you want to get good at killing humans, going out into the wastes and practicing killing bizarre creatures whose only resemblance to humans is that both species possess limbs seems rather silly.

It also seems imminently fatal.

Wandering around the city and murdering people you don't like seems like a slightly better way to learn how to kill humans, since such an activity involves the killing of humans.

It however, also seems imminently fatal.  On a world like Zalanthas, it won't be long before you try to kill the wrong person.  No friends and neighbors, it won't be long at all.

Some organizations have entire groups of spies and assassins in their clan documentation.  Since they exist, it seems rather implicit to me that the leaders of of these organizations have discovered a training regimen to make their recruits into effective killing machines that doesn't kill 90% of them.  Because organizations, you know, don't tend to last long if that happens.

Of course, as far as I've seen, all of these organizations have something in common in that they're virtual.

So I ask again, why does a class called assassin even exist when the current environment doesn't support it?

[Akaramu]

I was always under the impression that some clans do train player assassins, and have effective options to do so. Once upon a time, I was part of a clan who did this, and the person in question never needed to go out and stab random animals or humans. Could be that it takes a crafty leader PC to do this, I dont think the tools are available to anyone who feels the urge to train some pet assassins.

[LoD]

So I ask again, why does a class called assassin even exist when the current environment doesn't support it?

Each guild is not defined by one particular skill, but a collection.

The assassin[/i] class is a grouping of skills, nothing more.  You can choose to label the guild whatever you wish since much of the documentation and skill names has not changed significantly from its Diku roots.  The grouping of skills, however, does provide a player with a good variety of abilities with which to approach, observe, hunt and kill their prey.

No one has said that you cannot practice backstab as Rindan suggests, but I'll be damned if I ever agree to subject any character to anything but the RP preceeding the actual coded strike.  I completely understand Rindan's point, and if we were striving to make some perfect and realistic replica of how it might be accomplished on Earth, then fine.

My problem with using backstab in practice is twofold:

One is that the code doesn't differentiate between when you are "practicing" the skill and when you are trying to use it to murder someone.  This applies to all of the combat oriented skills, but is especially valid when considering a skill that has as much potential for real and serious injury as a strike specifically aimed for a vulnerable part of the body.  

Two is that practicing backstab with a partner behind closed doors represents no challenge or danger to the would-be assassin.  And there should be a risk associated with reward.  If you could provide some kind of risk associated with that method of skill advacncement, then perhaps I'd be less judgemental in agreeing with it.

-LoD

[EvilRoeSlade]

Each guild is not defined by one particular skill, but a collection.

The assassin[/i] class is a grouping of skills, nothing more.  You can choose to label the guild whatever you wish since much of the documentation and skill names has not changed significantly from its Diku roots.  The grouping of skills, however, does provide a player with a good variety of abilities with which to approach, observe, hunt and kill their prey.

Then perhaps my real question is why the backstab skill exists if there isn't any coded support for it.  Perhaps a better way to phrase it is, why does the backstab skill exist if there isn't any coded support for it that won't get you labelled as a twink.  My assumption in my previous arguement is that the afore-mentioned organizations would offer to teach their initiates a skill such as backstab, since its value to a spy or assassin in a primitive world is rather obvious.  So in my arguement, go ahead and assume that when I say assassin it is equivalent to the phrase "dude that wants to get good at backstabbing."

No one has said that you cannot practice backstab as Rindan suggests, but I'll be damned if I ever agree to subject any character to anything but the RP preceeding the actual coded strike.  I completely understand Rindan's point, and if we were striving to make some perfect and realistic replica of how it might be accomplished on Earth, then fine.

Here you're saying that subjecting yourself to backstab is too risky.

Two is that practicing backstab with a partner behind closed doors represents no challenge or danger to the would-be assassin.  And there should be a risk associated with reward.  If you could provide some kind of risk associated with that method of skill advacncement, then perhaps I'd be less judgemental in agreeing with it.

And here you're saying that there is no challenge or danger to the would-be assassin.

It seems to me that you're either contradicting yourself, or failing to realize an implicit connection between your two points.

If it's the latter case, then try explaining this to my dwarf runner who was very nearly kicked out of the Byn because he killed two of his sparring partners over the course of his year of training.

I also take issue with your bias against the assassin class.  Nearly every organization in the game is completely devoted to cranking out bad-ass warriors without any challenge or danger to the would-be warrior.

Yeah, that's right.  They call it sparring.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree.
Let's fix it by making backstab easy to do, hard to learn?

Wouldn't that be what it is now?

I don't think any changes are needed for backstab.  It plays its role, provides  a couple of classes with a unique tool and doesn't seem to off balance the game in any gross way.  Why add work to something that isn't broken?

-LoD

Perhaps something even better. You get bonuses when certain skills are in effect, like listen, hide, sneak, scan, time spent in a room.

(These numbers and anything else can be changed)

So having sneak and hide maxxed out you would get +10-20 (each) bonus for backstab. While listen and scan would give you a bonus of 5-10.

So having a maxed sneak, hide, listen, and scan could possibly give you +60 points to your backstab skill?

Something along those lines.

[mansa]

How do you know something like that isn't in use already?

[Maybe42or54]

It doesn't work very well then.

[LoD]

Here you're saying that subjecting yourself to backstab is too risky.

Yes, subjecting my character to someone else's backstab would be too risky for any of my PC's to allow someone to "practice" on them.

And here you're saying that there is no challenge or danger to the would-be assassin.  It seems to me that you're either contradicting yourself, or failing to realize an implicit connection between your two points.

I'm neither contradicting my point nor failing to realize any connection.  You seem to be confused on my two points however, so let me place them side by side to eliminate that confusion:

1. I wouldn't allow any PC to "backstab" my PC for training.
2. There should be some risk to the reward of a proficient backstab.

This means that someone shouldn't be able to sit behind closed doors and backstab their buddy until it's maxxed out (REWARD) without ever having to place their character in any danger (RISK).  This same risk vs. reward should also apply to anyone sapping friends, subdue;hitting friends and sorcerers/mages casting damage spells on themselves IMHO.

If it's the latter case, then try explaining this to my dwarf runner who was very nearly kicked out of the Byn because he killed two of his sparring partners over the course of his year of training.

It was actualy neither case, so my guess for why your dwarven runner was nearly kicked out of the Byn when he killed two of his sparring partners was neither you nor your partners realized when to stop.

I guess because I wasn't there.  You were, however, so you should know.

I also take issue with your bias against the assassin class. Nearly every organization in the game is completely devoted to cranking out bad-ass warriors without any challenge or danger to the would-be warrior.

Yeah, that's right. They call it sparring.

Do they also practice subdue kills?  Saps?  Fireballs?  If not, then I'd say any assassins in said clan will walk away from the "sparring" they do with just as much chance of improvement and advancement as the warriors.  As they are equal, then I don't see any relevance to your point.  Backstab is not equal to a kick, disarm or bash.  Its potential is higher.

-LoD

[Rindan]

1. I wouldn't allow any PC to "backstab" my PC for training.
2. There should be some risk to the reward of a proficient backstab.

This means that someone shouldn't be able to sit behind closed doors and backstab their buddy until it's maxxed out (REWARD) without ever having to place their character in any danger (RISK).  This same risk vs. reward should also apply to anyone sapping friends, subdue;hitting friends and sorcerers/mages casting damage spells on themselves IMHO.

I would allow someone to backstab my character with a training weapon.  Code wise, the damage it does is minimal.  I would let my n00b ranger turn his back to a door and try and hear an assassin come in long before I had my 20 day old warrior train a newbie half giant in a sparring ring.  One of those activities can leave you dead; it isn't the backstabbing training.  The code simulates a guy whacking you hard enough to feel it without making it anywhere near lethal just fine.  RP wise, I am pretty damn sure that you can RP the difference between driving a dagger into someone as hard as you can and hitting them hard enough to let them know that you are there.  The code and the RP to do it are both there.

As far as you argument about risk vs reward, I don't buy it.  Sparring with a normal human has almost no risk.  So long as you don't do something blatantly stupid like take a complete newbie and set him up against a duel wielding mul, you are not going to die sparring unless the other guy is setting out to really harm you.  There are countless coded ways to make the danger in sparring minimal.  Your magiker can do something silly like casting fire balls at himself, or he can live a long utterly safe life using nil.  There are very few skills in the game that demand you take a stupid risk to train them.  Nearly all skills in Armageddon merely require time and RP.  I don't know about anyone else here, but my character's don't die practicing skills.  I never experience a "risk vs reward".

Balance in Armageddon goes far beyond simply seeing who can become the most elite killer fasts code wise.  RP is supposed to act as a balancing factor as well.  Muls can slaughter everyone.  Elementalist are death incarnate.  Sorcerers are frigging gods.  What holds these positions in balance are the RPed requirements surrounding them.  Sure, your sorcerer can become a minor god, but you should expect an imm sponsored beat down if you go wander to a far corner of Zalanthas and spam cast all day until.  Your mul might be able to tear everyone a new one, but you are expected to play a broken creature who is hunted by everyone.  Further, you are expected to not wander the desert all day slaughtering NPCs to up your combat skills.  You can bring a mul, elementalist, or sorcerer to ungodly power if you utterly ignore your environment and put no RPed controls on your behavior.  You can become a mini god without any risk whatsoever.  Hell, you can bring a generic human warrior to incredible power without any risk if you ignore RP.
Assassins should be no different.  The limit on their potential should not be some coded risk Vs reward any more then it is for a sorcerer or mul.  Role play should be the break that keeps an assassin from sitting in a room all day twinking out his backstab skill.  Role playing learning how to backstab should not involve artificially seeking out risk.  The incentive to not improperly train backstab should be the same one applied to not improperly training any combat skill, an imm sponsored beat down if you twink it out.  If you are training to be a Borsail assassin, it isn't a 90% chance of dying each time that prevents you from practicing how to backstab, it is the RPed restrictions inherent in such a role that moderate your pace to something reasonable.

I would much rather see a guy who trains backstabbing in a realistic RPed manner and use it with the intent to hurt someone less the a dozen times over the course of his entire life, then I would like to see a guy training to be an assassin who looks for reasons to whack animals or vagrants because he knows if he doesn't use the skill a couple hundred times he will never make his skill go up.  You should be able to train as an assassin without ever leaving a city to hunt wolves or wandering the alleyways looking to harm vagrants.  You shouldn't have to set out with reasons and excuses that give you the intent to murder a few hundred times to become moderatly skilled.

It might take 500 backstab attempts to reach a moderate skill with backstab.  You shouldn't have to seek out and try to murder 500 people and animals to get there.  In my opinion, if you use backstab on something you want to kill a dozen times in your life time, you are probably doing it right.

[HunterKiller]

I think it is a fair game to retreat and attempt a surprise again.
(Can be arguable for some NPCs)

So why is this not okay for thieves?  Without searching I'll bet I can find plenty of threads containing a general consensus that it's twinkish to fail a steal (Actually Nen's thieving bible mentions not to do this to NPCs or PCs at the very top of the article), sneak back into the room and try to steal from the same victim again.  Is that not twinking the steal skill?  So the only way to justify backstabbing PC, sneaking out, then back in again and backstabbing again, is to disassociate itself from thievery on Arm.

Backstabbing is not like throwing, throwing can be done at a distance.  It's more like stealing.  Backstabbing requires you be within arm's distance and that you're not already engaged in combat.  It's laughable to me that someone who just got "backstabbed" would be so open to receive another "critical" strike (by the way there's no way to defend against this, just like there's no way to defend against steal.  You either go on the offensive and try to kill them (possibly getting crim-flagged) or run away - just like stealing).  Just like it's laughable to me that someone who'd gotten stole from (or just noticed hands in their pockets) would be susceptible to getting stole from again (a skill that IS based on stealth or misdirection) -right- after it happened.  Just like steal, if you backstab someone and they run off and you catch up to them, then sure, the environment has changed, the character is no longer around other characters who now know what's going on, etc.  Plausible.

It could be that my impression of backstab as a surprise attack is not correct, and don't get me wrong, that's -fine- by me.  :-P  It's easier for sneakier types.  The only reason I can think of for backstabbing and stealing to be treated differently is because it's often easier to get away after a steal attempt.  If that's the case though I'd like an official confirmation from an imm as this could use clarification.

- HK

[LoD]

Assassins should be no different.  The limit on their potential should not be some coded risk Vs reward any more then it is for a sorcerer or mul.

Muls and sorcerers are also karma classes that are not able to be played by a brand new player who doesn't know any better.  There's a large difference there, because people who are allowed to play mul and sorcerer roles should have a firm understanding of what their potential for death equates to in responsibility on them as a good RPer to not abuse it.

There is no such barrier to a new player selecting the assassin class.

-LoD

[EvilRoeSlade]

This means that someone shouldn't be able to sit behind closed doors and backstab their buddy until it's maxxed out (REWARD) without ever having to place their character in any danger (RISK).  This same risk vs. reward should also apply to anyone sapping friends, subdue;hitting friends and sorcerers/mages casting damage spells on themselves IMHO.

According to -you-, their buddy would be in danger after being subjected to the horrors of the backstab skill.  And according to -you,- when their buddy turned around and said "My turn, let me backstab you a few hundred times" then they too would be in danger.  That you don't recognize this or else have chosen not to address it is the contradiction I'm seeing in the underlying theme of your posts.

It was actualy neither case, so my guess for why your dwarven runner was nearly kicked out of the Byn when he killed two of his sparring partners was neither you nor your partners realized when to stop.

I guess because I wasn't there.  You were, however, so you should know.

Fair enough, I shall elaborate.  My dwarven runner killed his partners not because neither realized when to stop, but because my dwarven runner had kick-ass strength and agility and was subjecting anyone who stepped into the ring with him to mortal danger.  He only rarely lost matches, even when fighting against people with considerable more skill than him.  I recall that his first fight was with his Byn Sergeant (an assassin).  He won by a thin margin.

Since by the time he graduated he was regularly churning out horrendouses to the head with his sparring clubs, it really wasn't an issue of not stopping in time.  The issue was beginning to spar in the first place.

Since this was before the mercy code was implimented, it actually surprises me that his kill total didn't climb above two.

Anyway, if the correlation this story has to the power of assassins and risk vs. reward isn't apparent, I can always draw out the conclusions myself in a further post.

The fact is, that skilled warriors (or even unskilled if they're of the right race and you get a little luck on your stat rolls) pose a huge amount of threat to the average character, far more than any assassin I'm aware of ever has.

I have been assassinated by warriors before.  I have never been assassinated, killed, or seriously threatened by an assassin, ever, unless I wasn't able to discern that they were an assassin because they never used backstab, sap, throw, or trap while killing me, in which case my point is still essentially serviced.

Do they also practice subdue kills?  Saps?  Fireballs?  If not, then I'd say any assassins in said clan will walk away from the "sparring" they do with just as much chance of improvement and advancement as the warriors.  As they are equal, then I don't see any relevance to your point.  Backstab is not equal to a kick, disarm or bash.  Its potential is higher.

Kick, disarm, or bash may not be the equal of backstab, but the complete warrior skillset is more than a match, and a warrior has every opportunity to practice everything that shows up on their list without exposing themselves to a hint of risk or even suspicion.

Sap is a special case... essentially the same arguments I would have for backstab, I would hold for that skill as well.

Subdue-killing isn't a skill.  You can get better at the skills -necessary- to become better at subdue-killing without exposing yourself to a shred of risk.

Blowing people up is a skill that a magicker can practice without a shred of risk.

The underlying theme of all these examples seem to be that they all serve to erode your arguement.