World Interaction - 2 of 4 (Merchant Houses)

[LoD]

World Interaction – Part 2 of 4 (Merchant Houses)

The last few years have given rise to some changes in Armageddon's code, administration and policy that I wanted to discuss with both the players and Staff. These changes have almost all been for the better, yet I see a few issues that are potentially dangerous as trends, and I am interested to hear the observations and views of others.

:arrow: The creation of north-south divisions and lack of travel has greatly diminished the role of the Merchant House.[/i]

Great Merchant Houses

The Great Merchant Houses, Salarr, Kurac and Kadius, are perhaps the single most important clans in Armageddon.  Because of their wide appeal, flexibility, varied job positions and ability to travel, they offer an almost unparalleled opportunity for new and veteran players to get the most exposure to the game world in the form of hunting, guarding, traveling, crafting, selling, spying and becoming involved in politics.  Unfortunately, changes over the last few years in administration and policy have somewhat lessened the great potential they carry.

The three Great Merchant Houses used to seem both more present and worldly as organizations.  There wasn't a forced distinction between a "north" and  "south" division.  What this created was a constant flow of traffic between Tuluk, Luir's Outpost and Allanak, as well as other areas of the Known World for purpose of trade, resource collection and scouting/exploration.  Merchants, advisors, spies, guards, hunters and craftsmen all had a good opportunity to move between cities often enough for them all to feel relatively useful in their profession as well as adventurous.

Current Issues

It seems nearly impossible to maintain a sizeable presence in each of the three active Houses.  Part of the problem is that they seem to have developed a northern[/i] and southern[/i] mentality where the northern merchants stay north and southern merchants stay south.  I really believe this is a critical mistake.  While it may seem more realistic to designate a northern and southern branch to satisfy the virtual needs each city-state would have, it lessens much of the potential interaction and activity the game would receive by increased travel.

One of the most common suggestions I see on the boards is to eliminate one of the city-states in order to force more people into one City to have the level of interaction, politics and such people desire.  This hasn't always been a problem, and the reason was that the Great Merchant Houses traveled often enough and interacted with enough people in the game world to create the illusion of a larger populace.  They were three floating communities that played dual roles as a functioning political and financial organization and a resource with whom other clans could interact and play.

Without this encouraged travel, especially by House Salarr and House Kadius, the cities begin to feel stagnant and static.  The same faces sitting in the same taverns waiting for the same nobles and templars to place orders and perhaps throw a bone of interest their direction for something that came up.  When you have 3 clans that can each easily support 5+ active players at a given time, you have an influx of 15 players rotating between both cities, not to mention any independents that have affiliations with either of these organizations and might travel with them.

Suggestions

:arrow: Remove the notion of a northern and southern branch.

Have the PC's of each Merchant House responsible for the PC's of the game world.  Don't limit where they can travel or whom they can sell to, but encourage interaction with as many customers and player populated zones in the game as possible.  This will encourage interaction on so many different levels:

> PC Merchants will be able to sell to nobles and templars of both cities.
> PC Templars and nobles from both cities will have a link through the Merchant Houses by which to trade information and become involved in plots.
> The neutrality of the Houses will be better reinforced by having northern and southern born employees frequenting the opposite city-state.

:arrow: Encourage frequent travel between the city-states via wagon.

There might be some travel presently, but it's a pale shadow of what it could be if there were proper incentives and direction toward making travel important to the business of the Houses.  Promote more ways for merchants to make coin by trade routes that capitalize on geography, access to resources and differences in cultures.  It almost seems like wagons are used as a last resort, when I feel they should be readily accessible to established merchants in any of the Houses as a playability issue and means for more interaction to occur in-game.

> Criminal elements in each city-state will have access to more PC's that won't recognize who they are to both sell information and ply their trades.
> Spies and plants will have better covers to enter different organizations and cities without seeming too obvious or eager.
> Each city will have rotating faces and bodies that will create an illusion of a fuller and more diverse civilization.
> PC's along the trade routes will have a larger chance to interact with larger groups of people for purposes of trades, raids or other exchanges.

There are lot of changes that could be made to how the PC's of a Merchant House operate that would open up so many doors and opportunities for every clan in the game.  Any shifts toward allowing them more freedom to travel and operate within either city-state would only increase all the things people have been wanting for years.

-LoD

[Tamarin]

I can't say I don't love this idea.  I hate the north-south split within the merchant houses.

[Angela Christine]

I like it.

It might be more realistic for a merchant to work just one city, heck, even just one neighbourhood in one city, but more mobility would help playability tremendously.  We might even see less stagnation, people wouldn't feel so "trapped" and lose intrest, abandon the clan, or suicide.  People that avoid certain clans because they fear being trapped into a dull, repetative, restrictive role in a clan might be willing to try if they knew that travel and new experiences were part of the package.


Angela Christine

[Jakahri]

Meh.

Might work, might not.

I don't mind things the way they are now.

[Manhattan]

I always imagined an escaped convict or notorious criminal who would stowaway on merchant wagons travelling between cities. This can increase playability for fugitives and allow more room for plot intrigue! If northern vs. southern hostilities were eliminated, we could have frequent travel for said wagons and see more thieves and assassins hopping on a passing cargo wagon and hitching a ride up to Tuluk where they can keep cool for the time being. I remember saying before, ArmageddonMUD is like an epic movie.

The stowaway idea is just swimming through my head, such a great mental picture!

This is probably already done, with caravans and whatnot.

[Armaddict]

I hate the idea of more north/south travel until the system by which they travel is improved.

I -hate- seeing people go from Tuluk to Allanak to Tuluk to Luirs to Allanak to Luirs to Allanak in the course of a RL week.  I think the key to representing the real distance from one point to the other is to make the travel harder and more of a deal.

More wagons is good, but only if you put in some sort of danger effect to wagons and make them more dependent on roads.

The north/south divisions I actually like.  Merchant houses are neutral, yes, but a northerner coming down to do business with nobility is just -asking- for conflicts to arise all around.  While acknowledged as neutral, I don't think I'd play a noble that's completely comfortable with a northerner coming down to Allanak to negotiate prices and deals with me.  And if their house is vast and prosperous, they can -afford-, with both money and staff, to keep a unit in one place and more readily available for use by people of that city.

I'd rather see 'shipments' moving north and south rather than the staff that the people are dealing with.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The north/south divisions I actually like.  Merchant houses are neutral, yes, but a northerner coming down to do business with nobility is just -asking- for conflicts to arise all around.  While acknowledged as neutral, I don't think I'd play a noble that's completely comfortable with a northerner coming down to Allanak to negotiate prices and deals with me.  And if their house is vast and prosperous, they can -afford-, with both money and staff, to keep a unit in one place and more readily available for use by people of that city.

The ideal employee of a noble house would either appear to be neither northern or southern, or appear to be of the ethnicity of whatever place he is currently residing.

Diplomacy is a merchant's most valuable tool.  Unfortunately it seems to be something that the players of noble houses are sorely lacking these days.  However, the coded and virtual tools for a person to blend in are now all present.  I say it's time for people to use them.

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

You can't spell merchant without international.  Because if you try, I'll hit you.

[Armaddict]

Diplomacy is a merchant's most valuable tool. Unfortunately it seems to be something that the players of noble houses are sorely lacking these days. However, the coded and virtual tools for a person to blend in are now all present. I say it's time for people to use them.

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

You can't spell merchant without international. Because if you try, I'll hit you.

Diplomacy.  Part of that is getting on the good side of your target customer.  That's made much much harder if you're obviously from a part of the world that your customer's people are at -war- with.  As you said, it can be covered up.  But then if it's found out at some point or leads to a conflict, you're in even worse condition than you started out as telling them you're a member of that 'hated people' in the first place.  It's something that -has- to be dealt with, this concept of northerners trying to sell to southerners.  The diplomacy is making them forget you're northern.

Every merchant house has -not- become two clans.  It's become a clan with two different bases.  As in, a base where southern employees can be hired and work, and a base where northern employees can be hired and work.   They communicate, work together, and act as one clan.  The only difference is that there are two positions rather than one, one in each base, so that instead of one person travelling all over the frickin' place, it's two people stationed where they're needed.  Travel still occurs, but it's not required nearly as much, and this keeps that 'one person' from constantly getting hampered to spy or report on the other city for coin, or be suspected of doing such for the other city.

As I said, merchant houses have the coin -and- staff available for this to happen, and it results in all around easier business when you don't have two hated people constantly going at the neutral people.  A big step for this is taken by having each base consist, at least mostly, of people of the same 'nationality', though they're technically neutral.

There is no lack of international in the way things are.  Just two cells for the same group.

[Larrath]

I don't see why people make a distinction between a Kadius family member who was born in Tuluk and a Kadius family member who was born in Allanak.
They're both Kadians.

I think it's just silly.  These Houses are huge and very famously neutral.  Speaking to a 'northern' Kuraci is hardly speaking with the Tuluki enemy.

Really, the Great Merchant Houses would (and probably do) put in a lot of effort to avoid being seen as 'northern Salarri' or 'southern Salarri', because it can have serious impact on business.  House employees of all levels get moved around all the time.

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent.  It's a Kadian.

[Armaddict]

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent. It's a Kadian.

It happens all the time.  I have a friend from Iran.  His family is from Iran.  He's cool, I hang out with him a lot.  That doesn't mean his family is immediately known by me, as a matter of fact, I know very little about them.  

I can just say, 'It's a kadian', but that in no way means that I have to trust that family member more.  All I know is that that particular family member comes from a different place.  I can't just assume they're exactly the same as the kadians I met down in Allanak, just because they come from a well-known family and bear it's name.

I think we need -less- blurs on how to treat people between north and south, not more.   Let the conflict between north and south go on.

[Obsidian Lord]

Again, good stuff, LoD.

[Halaster]

I -hate- seeing people go from Tuluk to Allanak to Tuluk to Luirs to Allanak to Luirs to Allanak in the course of a RL week.

According to help time, 1 RL week is about 1/2 an IC month.  That's about 115 IC days.  Is it that terrible of a thing to travel between the cities a few times in 115 days?

[spawnloser]

I wasn't with LoD on the tribals thing, but I'm SO with him on this.

[jhunter]

I agree with everything LoD posted regarding the merchant houses. There really shouldn't be as much separation as there is between the northern and southern branches of them. It does make it function more like there are six separate merchant houses instead of three.

I remember when there was alot more travel between the city-states by the merchant houses. It made for great fun and created alot of plots for people to get involved in that affected those in either the north or south. The merchant pcs should really get involved in actually going out and doing their trade/working to take out competitors instead of tavern sitting and waiting for people to come find them and make purchases/sales. That's what we have npc merchants for.

Folks that do nothing but mudsex and tavern sit add very little to the game, hardly ever drive plots, and are the main cause of the decay of conflict and plots that involve many people. This is IMO of course.

[Matrim]

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with having Northern and Southern divisions, it makes sense for the houses as businesses to operate that way, but I think interaction and trade between the two divisions should be promoted.  Since most of the houses operate as monopolies, I would think internal trade would be a very common thing, it's just now i'm assuming most of that trade is done "virtually", giving little reason for the two divisions to interact with each other.

It has been established in the docs that certain materials are native to different geographical locations--wood, hides, and bone from the north, and chitin, and obsidian from the south.  Encouraging the houses to make frequent trade runs (trading internally between the two divisions too) would encourage the kind of interaction I think you are looking for.  I think silk is primarily made up north too am I right?  And the southern nobility are addicted to it, though they turn a blind eye to where it comes from.  Perhaps this is why it is vital to have a northern/southern branch.  

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent.  It's a Kadian.

True, a Kadian is a Kadian, but the two city states are at war, and it is largely because of special circumstances and monopolies that the Merchant Houses are permitted to operate in both cities.  A southern noble would probably feel more comfortable letting a southern born merchant into their estate, and spending thousands of 'sid with them.  First, origins play a big deal in trust and loyalty; and second, the noble may even feel more comfortable knowing the profit earned by the noble will be staying within Allanak.

That said, it is true that a "Kadian is a Kadian", which is why a northern Kadian in Allanak would probably be harassed far less than an indy northerner.  I think it is obvious though that the northern Kadian will be recieved with at least some prejudice--again--the two city-states are at war.  The Southern Templarite will probably assume that Northern officials will probe and bribe them for information.  The average joe 'Nakki commoner may just be prejudice for the sake of being prejudice.  You under estimate the mindlessness of prejudice

All in all, a good thread though, I think the game would benifit greatly from increased interaction between the cities, even though they are at war.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Every merchant house has -not- become two clans.  It's become a clan with two different bases.  As in, a base where southern employees can be hired and work, and a base where northern employees can be hired and work.   They communicate, work together, and act as one clan.  The only difference is that there are two positions rather than one, one in each base, so that instead of one person travelling all over the frickin' place, it's two people stationed where they're needed.  Travel still occurs, but it's not required nearly as much, and this keeps that 'one person' from constantly getting hampered to spy or report on the other city for coin, or be suspected of doing such for the other city.

I don't know which merchant house you played in, but it wasn't the one that I played in.

Part of this is an OOC concern as well.  Right now a newly created merchant character feels that he needs to hire a huge squad of hunters and guards to hunt and guard and do nothing and make him feel all warm and fuzzy.

A merchant house would be far more dynamic, action-oriented, and engaging from the perspective of the players within it if that same merchant only had to transfer a couple seasoned warriors or rangers from the north to get things started or maybe an entire squad for just a couple weeks in order to make a quota passed down by an NPC superior.

If half the characters do twice the work, then they also have twice the fun.  And a merchant house doesn't require 15-20 characters just to operate successfully in both city states.  I mention this not because I think having less positions will "free up" players to do other things but because I believe that the less characters a clan requires to function, the more fun that clan is.

[path]

I cast my vote with LoD. You're right on track man, and it's good to see someone giving a new angle of thought to some of our old problems.

That said, I also agree with most of the things Slade said, and not just because I think he's fine.

Finially, AC seems to be on point with why people avoid clans. I avoid clans for exactly the reasons she mentioned.

Is it too late to add a vote to this? I'd like to see the majority opinion.

[marko]

I think it's just silly.  These Houses are huge and very famously neutral.  Speaking to a 'northern' Kuraci is hardly speaking with the Tuluki enemy.

Just want to note something about this:

1458
A new government in Tuluk is formed, still headed by the Sun King Muk Utep, giving a greater authority to the common people, noble houses, and merchant houses of Gol Krathu. This council becomes known as the Northlands Alliance.

I would suggest the Great Merchant Houses are infamous for their bias and side taking but have managed, somehow or other, to become "necessary" for the City States to tolerate.  

The most "neutral" of all the Houses would be Salarr.

The other two of the three are very much known for clearly siding with one City State or the Other over the course of History.  I believe there was some serious wheelings and dealings and thus there haven't been significant lasting IC consequences for a lot of these activities (ie, ousting a merchant house entirely from a City and banning them from ever coming back).  There may also have been playability issues at hand as well (duplicating merchant houses, doubling administrative overhead, etc etc).

But, the Merchant Houses are very infamous for taking sides.  They have in the past.  Most likely they will again in the future.

[amoeba]

I'm going to play devils advocate here, because, well thats just me.

Mostly I like the thoughts put forth, but I think a lot more fleshing out needs to be done.  

I think back to when I had a character just starting in a certian spice oriented clan.  I was all excited, finally got to go on a wagon trip to Allanak after Rl weeks of sparring and guarding.  Now as a player who had never seen 'nak, this was doubly exciting.  

So, the fateful trip.  Now for those that have taken wagon trips, you know what a joyride of excitement they really are.  Get to 'nak and it was decied that my character was not presentable where they were headed  so the decison was made for my guy to "guard" the wagon.  It took them two RL hours to do what they had come for and return.   We then returned in the wagon.    Total time all in all, about three hours RL.  Sights seen, a wagon.  

The point here is that travel is good, but wagon travel doesn't fill me with heaps of joy.  They tend to be dull and are near impossible to raid without IMM intervention.  I think wagons shold be used for special purposes, I would think kankback excursions would be much more common (and a hell of a lot more interesting).   I also feel there should be more than just going to someplace, there should be reasons for doing things that involve more than just a few players.

[X-D]

I don't know if there is really that split being spoken of.
Travel between the two sity states by the merchant houses might simply be low because of low pc numbers, or any number of other IC reasons.
I personaly would take a more wait and see attitude on this, it might pick up, or reasons might be found for it to be low.

[Matrim]

I don't know if there is really that split being spoken of.
Travel between the two sity states by the merchant houses might simply be low because of low pc numbers, or any number of other IC reasons.
I personaly would take a more wait and see attitude on this, it might pick up, or reasons might be found for it to be low.

I have in my time played along side many Merchant Houses, and actually did see a fair bit of travel with those roles, and it is true that part of the problem may be a current lack of PCs in the roles that are needed for what we are talking about.  Whether there is an actual problem or not, I think encouraging interaction and further developing the actual trade that goes on between Allanak and Tuluk could only be a good thing.

I would also personally like to see Luir's Outpost used as more of an actual hub, rather than just a quick rest stop.  Example: Tuluki Tal brings down a shipment of lumber to the Outpost and trades it to Allanaki Al for a sack of shells.  Both traders return home with goods that should fetch them a fair price, and didn't even have to risk getting strip searched by those pesky templars.  Luir's is already suppose to be a center for trade, but I don't think a lot of trade actually goes on down there, does it?  (I don't actually know this) While the big Merchant Houses may have a few 'get out of jail free' cards in opposing cities, I think it would be cool to see more trade (both from Merchant Houses and Indy traders) happen within the walls of Luir's.  While Allanak and Tuluk may be politically at war, they still rely on each other quite heavily for trade and economy.  Luir's could be a good place for trade oriented commoners to interact with one another.

When I create a character that either starts in the North or the South, I eventually start to crave a little multiculturalism  While some of you people loathe either Tuluk or Allanak, I personally love them both.  I think it would be neat for a 'Nakki to have the opportunity to travel to Luir's to watch a famous northern bard perform, or a Tuluki have the opportunity to travel to Luir's to boo and hiss one of Allanak's greatest gladiators fight in the arena.  (It's not too uncommon in the real world to see an American entertainer be loved and perform in another country that may not have very good political standings with the US).  I've always liked the idea of Northern and Southern commoners being able to interact with each other with a kind of uneasy truce.  Think of the plots that could spawn in such an environment, where the only faction to "keep the peace" are the Kuracis.  The idea actually came to me after watching Dune--I thought it would be cool to have the Noble Houses of both Allanak and Tuluk have a chance to interact with each other outside of either city-state in a sort of uneasy truce (for whatever reason), just to see what kind of crazy stuff would happen.  I guess the Luir's thing could be kind of similar.

[jhunter]

Good point about Luir's Matrim. It -should- be a meeting place for trade between the north and south. Having people from both cities head there to meet for trade would cause more activity from both ends and for those in Luir's.

[Nameless Face]

I also agree.

The only problem with Luirs... is all those damn Kuraci.

[Jherlen]

I think that unless some sort of system of rotation was set up, PCs in merchant clans would simply be swamped if they were expected to move and interact in both cities.

If there is one PC Agent in, say, Salarr, and instead of only his home city he's now expected to deal with people in both cities, the guy would never be able to do anything else between running back and forth between all the nobles demanding to see him. "What, Joe Salarr? You're in TULUK? I'm Lord Fancypants Borsail and I want my new sword NOW NOW NOW." It would be too much for one or two PCs to handle. That's why the "branch" system is in place, I think.

And even if you don't make the distinction between "northern" and "southern" merchant family members, people will still make the distinction between their employees. I've seen and had PCs in merchant houses who were visiting their opposite city-state and were tortured and harassed by nobility and templars. That the poor hunter had a Salarr cloak doesn't matter to these people, he's a northerner in my precious Allanak! While it got annoying, it also made sense - low ranking PCs aren't usually worth their House fussing over them to rich people. Still, it discourages having those PCs travel away from whatever city they were hired in.

Personally, in my experience the merchant houses do plenty of traveling, even if they may keep it a bit low key. I don't see a need to cut their sizes down and I think it would be hell on the leader PCs if we did.

[LoD]

If there is one PC Agent in, say, Salarr, and instead of only his home city he's now expected to deal with people in both cities, the guy would never be able to do anything else between running back and forth between all the nobles demanding to see him. It would be too much for one or two PCs to handle.

If a PC Agent is ever in that situation, where he has too many things for himself to handle, then things are going great.  Many of your perceptions have been created by this north-south division of employee interaction.  It wasn't always this way, and IMHO - it was better before.  You had more opportunities for conflicts of interest, espionage, trade, exchages, diplomacy, revenge...

There is a feeling in many clans that steps are being taken to disallow as many "unknowns" as possible with regards to their success.  Their estates or homelands become less and less accessible.  Their employees become more and more screened.  PC's used to be able to simply walk down a road to Blackwing's camp - now there is a gigantic fortress in the way.  The gypsies used to travel solely in a wagon, now they have their own game preserve.

And merchants used to travel between cities, wheeling and dealing and making crafty deals with wits and careful diplomacy.  Now they sit in ethnocentric heaven requiring neither the guile nor wits to keep them in the good graces of their customers save to remember to praise the God-King of choice and bow.  How disappointing!

When I played Khann, as the only PC Salarri merchant, I would be bombarded with contacts as soon as I entered the game, but it was some of the very best political RP and plot generating interactions that I ever had within the game.  Having so many people working with you simply opens up a floodgate of opportunity.  To cringe from it and feel as if that player would be swamped almost feels cowardly and working against what this whole MUD is about - generating good stories based off of player driven events and interaction.

And even if you don't make the distinction between "northern" and "southern" merchant family members, people will still make the distinction between their employees. I've seen and had PCs in merchant houses who were visiting their opposite city-state and were tortured and harassed by nobility and templars. That the poor hunter had a Salarr cloak doesn't matter to these people, he's a northerner in my precious Allanak!

But do you know why this has happened?  It's because they implemented this "division" practice and so now the north and south feel so completely devoid of different cultures and peoples that a northern speaking man in the southlands is like a glowing white beacon.  If the system was released and each House travelled a couple times each RL week to trade with the opposite cities, these accents would begin to fade into the background and it would discourage the "It's a northerner!"[/i] reaction from people because it would be far more commonplace.

Personally, in my experience the merchant houses do plenty of traveling, even if they may keep it a bit low key. I don't see a need to cut their sizes down and I think it would be hell on the leader PCs if we did.

You don't need to cut any sizes down, just travel more often.  Implement incentives for merchants to travel and make money.  I don't know what your definition of "hell" is, but if I was a merchant in a Great House and I had access to a wagon, I'd definitely take my people on trips a couple times a week to make things exciting.  That's part of my job as a leader.  Perhaps they don't really know what to do.  It's possible.  Most of them have had to do very little besides look frumpy in their silks, sit in a tavern and wait for people to approach them for some big sales.

I loved being the merchant that was doing the low level trading between city-states, making money, paying my guards, running into plenty of interaction between tribes, cities, gangs, everything.  The RP that resulted from travelling often was probably more than any other character I've ever had, and it was almost a direct result of having that travel in the game.  Of bringing new and strange faces from the north and bringing them south for a few days.  

It makes the world feel bigger.  It makes the duty more rewarding.  And it provides more opportunities for people to play out their role with the clan, guarding the caravan, guarding the merchant, gathering the information, selling off the goods, drinking at the local tavern while you meet with your clients and contacts before heading back in a couple of days.

There's a wealth of opportunity that is not even being peeked at because of the division of the House dealings.  It may be realistic and it may make logical sense for them to assign folks to "deal with their own".  But it also completely short-changes every single one of us out of some great, GREAT chances for RP.

No chance to display your disappointment that you have to purchase something from a foreign merchant?  No chance to pay someone to rough him up when he visits the city, or steal something important from him only to make him grovel to take it back.  No chance to offend them enough that THEY may actually try to hire someone to kill YOU?  

How safe and how boring.

-LoD

[jhunter]

How safe and how boring.

Exactly. I think you are right on the money as far as this aspect of the game goes. It's just not as good as it used to be. Before it used to create more opportunities for the roleplaying of pcs in these merchant houses doing their jobs, taking some risks, gettting involved in and causing conflicts. They helped "spread the wealth" in more ways than one.

[Anonymous]

To cringe from it and feel as if that player would be swamped almost feels cowardly

What an unfair comment. You may enjoy being barraged by twenty requests for that 100 sid sword, but not everyone does. When I played a merchant I spent 70% of my time either taking orders for the obsidian sword that was curved at the end and not straight. Or answering an enquiry about where that sword was, or when it would be delivered, or tracking someone down to deliver it.

Part of the job sure, but it felt exactly like that, it wasn't great RP, it wasn't political interaction, it was getting other pcs some cool stuff. If you have too much ground to cover it turns into work, and I come here to relax, not carry on my 40 hour week.

Personally, I think you make some massive generalisations with this thread. Having played in more than one merchant house recently I don't think that every house is exactly the same.  If there was any 'division' it was still very co-operative and I experienced both travel to other city states and transfers of a longer nature.

Also, I'd hate to see everyone disregard the origins of someone just because they happen to be in a merchant clan. It's perfectly valid for people to react to these and perfectly valid for clans to make IC moves to counter them.

[Rindan]

The thing to keep in mind with merchant houses is that they are little cultures in themselves.  Once you join a merchant house, especially if you join for life, you really change citizenship.  Someone who has joined House Kurac is a Kuraci before they are a citizen of Tuluk or Allanak.  The longer you are in a merchant house, the more you are culturally a merchant house employee above and beyond a citizen of either city state.

I think the accent code makes too fine of a distinction.  A possible solution would be to give merchant houses their own unique accent.  Merchant house family members should, in my opinion, automatically have a unique accent.  A Kuraci house member should have a Kuraci accent as one of their accent options.  These are a group of people with a rich history that exists between all powers in the world.  The way they speak should reflect this.  The way a Kuraci family member speaks is probably strongly influenced by their history, their position in the center of the world, and the many different cultures that roll through.  The same could be said about Salarri and Kadians.  They both are people that are not from Allanak or Tuluk in particular.  They are their own people with their own identity.

The way I would suggest doing it so to make it so that anyone employed in a merchant house for a IC year or longer gets their house accent from the virtual exposure of a merchant house's day to day running.  Merchants in particular would be encouraged to use this accent.  Your nasty Kuraci Red Storm mercenary might still normally speak in a think southern accent most of the time, but throw him in front of a Tuluki Templar and he will probably start speaking with the best Kuraci accent he can muster.

A unique accent would do many things.  It would be a simple way to declaring allegiance to their merchant house.  If you talk to someone using a merchant house accent, you know where they stand.  It would also make a northerner able to easily deal with a southerner by blurring where he is from.  It drives home to the customer that these people members of their own unique culture.  For the merchant houses, it is also a tool to help drive into their employees that they are House members first and foremost, and not true citizens of a city state.

[marko]

A unique accent would do many things.  It would be a simple way to declaring allegiance to their merchant house.  If you talk to someone using a merchant house accent, you know where they stand.  It would also make a northerner able to easily deal with a southerner by blurring where he is from.  It drives home to the customer that these people members of their own unique culture.  For the merchant houses, it is also a tool to help drive into their employees that they are House members first and foremost, and not true citizens of a city state.

I'm not certain that the merchant houses are isolated enough to develop their own unique accents.  Merchants already speak cavilish - so perhaps some sort of cavilish based accent that is universal to all merchants.  But, instead, I'd rather see House Merchants taught as part of their studies both the northern and the southern accent.

I think this is just something that hasn't caught up to the recent code update and thus should be added in for House merchants.  Part of a merchant family member's upbrining would be how to speak the local dialects of where they are doing business.  As such, no family member merchant would ever speak the wrong accent unless it's a calculated insult or they are slipping back to whichever accent is more natural to them.

I don't really like the idea of merchant house accents - 'cause the moment you do that you may as well put in noble house accents and then give all clans their own accents (the muscular man says, in byn-accented sirihish...)  

Going off on a tangent - This is a seperate issue to talk about I think but I'll cover it briefly just 'cause it's 4am for me and I'm dead tired.

As for being a member of the Merchant House first and City State second... well, that's getting into tricky territory that may be at odds with how the authorities of each city state views it.   An Allanaki is an Allanaki even if he joins Salarr - that doesn't make him Salarri.  Now, a Salarri family member is a Salarri family member and that's slightly different.  

The merchant houses aren't immune to the laws of the cities they are operating in.  If a merchant house member commits an act of treason it is still an act of treason.  In other words, they are judged by their citizenship by the authorities.  Special dispensation (such that it is) may be granted to blooded family and adopted merchants - but I wouldn't suggest relying on that.

[Kuraci Kank]

Though I don't always agree with LOD's posts or all of his points, I do generally agree that more interaction between the PCs of the gameworld can only be a good thing, whether or not it is a good thing for the PCs themselves.

I, too, wish that Luir's would more often be used as a neutral hub for meeting and trading.  This isn't because of a lack of activity in Luir's (far from it), or necessarily from clan bias, it is because it only makes sense.  Luir's is the center of the Known World, and one of the few - if not the only - place(s) that can claim to be a melting pot of cultures.  It is the place to go if you want to find something or someone. If you look at the laws, you can see that all of them are geared toward making trade and business as smooth and as profitable as possible, so long as you respect Kuraci hospitality.

As to the Merchant Houses themselves travelling more often, from a personal standpoint I can say there have been times when I and whole groups of people under me have rarely been in the same place for more than a few RL days. It's great for a while, but it does get very hectic if it's on a constant, neverending basis.  The point someone brought up about it being ICly (and in some ways, OOCly) non-viable for a single PC to be in charge of business both north, central, AND south is a good one.

In a more limited form, travel is great.  I would not be opposed to seeing the merchants and Agents, and their employees, of the three great Merchant Houses get "rotated" on a monthly basis.  That's every two weeks - a convenient timetable for roleplaying the transportation of goods and people across the known world.  It's enough time to make contacts and develop relationships, take orders and give them, yet short enough that if business is slow or things are boring, your misery is fleeting.

It would, as well, bring about more of that "conflict" that Armageddon so thrives on, by virtue of having northern employees down south, and southern employees up north.  I don't think that the north should be easier on southerners or the southerners easier on northerners just because they happen to see plenty of them passing through - however, how much influence or rank that "foreigner" has in their House, and in society as a whole, should probably be considered.


In response to the leadership derail:

OOCly, I think the most important thing a leader can do is delegate.

ICly, you can delegate whether you are a bad leader or a good leader.  Being a bad leader does not mean you can't keep your men busy - it means (for example) you keep them busy being annoyed at how lazy you are and having to pull all your slack.

I bring that up because of the tangent in this thread about leaders being insanely busy people, on an IC and OOC level.  This is very true.  There is always a certain amount of OOC dedication you have to take with you into a leadership role, but it should never feel like work instead of a game.  If it does, then I suggest you look at how you are approaching the situation.

Is your character all job, or do they have interests and goals beyond selling the next load of gear or whacking the next recruit in the sparring ring?  Delegate, delegate, delegate.  Get other people doing your job for you, and you will have more time to have your fun and the people under you will probably be having fun too.  Fun, because they now have Things To Do, that have reason and a purpose (even if they don't know those reasons or purposes).

After all, from an OOC standpoint, the goal isn't whether or not the job gets done exactly the way you wanted it to be.  It creates more opportunities for roleplay if you roll with the good AND the bad possibilities and allow for mistakes to happen.  Who knows, you might luck on a great lackey for a while, and then things can really get rolling.  Teamwork rocks.


In response to the accent derail:

I've personally thought that, being as they usually live or stay for long periods of time in the center of the world, blood Kurac should have either a tribal accent or a unique accent of their own, and PCs growing up in Luir's Outpost (pointing to Luir's when they start the character) should also have an accent different from that of the city-states. Possibly 'central'-accented sirihish.

The place is simply a melting pot of cultures, many of them heavily tribal, and the rest from Tuluk or Allanak.  To my mind, someone growing up there would not naturally speak in a pure northern accent.  They would speak in a mixed combination of lingo that is all their own.

Though, I admit it would just be plain fun to see:

Code Select Expand

Pumping a fist in the air, the dusty soldier exclaims, in kuraci-accented sirhish:
   "For the Eclipse!"

[Rindan]

I'm not certain that the merchant houses are isolated enough to develop their own unique accents.  Merchants already speak cavilish - so perhaps some sort of cavilish based accent that is universal to all merchants.  But, instead, I'd rather see House Merchants taught as part of their studies both the northern and the southern accent.

I think an accent is something they could have intentionally developed, especially the Kuraci.  There are plenty of cases where accents are developed despite close proximity to other accents.  There are accents that have been developed intentionally in the real world.  For example, I grew up in a town in Maine where you could count the number of black people living there on two hands.  Despite this, we had kids that talked like they were urban blacks simply because they chose to and felt they identified with that culture.  We had other kids that would pour on a thick Maine accent even though it was rare in our area because they were red necks and proud of it.  Hell, when I used to go up to northern Maine to visit relatives, my father's normal light northeastern accent suddenly turned into a thick Maine accent around his family.

It is pretty trivial to create and hold onto an accent if you intentionally set out to do it.  I could easily see each merchant house having its own accent that differentiates based upon their ancient roots.  I could see them intentionally preserving this accent as a method of helping to retain their identity and keep themselves outside of north/south bias.

I don't really like the idea of merchant house accents - 'cause the moment you do that you may as well put in noble house accents and then give all clans their own accents (the muscular man says, in byn-accented sirihish...)  

I imagine that the accent noble's use probably determines the accent everyone uses.  Commoners want to imitate nobility.  I doubt they could keep a unique accent if they tried.  Further, they have no real reason to do so.  Their identity is Allanaki first and foremost.

As for being a member of the Merchant House first and City State second... well, that's getting into tricky territory that may be at odds with how the authorities of each city state views it.   An Allanaki is an Allanaki even if he joins Salarr - that doesn't make him Salarri.  Now, a Salarri family member is a Salarri family member and that's slightly different.  

The merchant houses aren't immune to the laws of the cities they are operating in.  If a merchant house member commits an act of treason it is still an act of treason.  In other words, they are judged by their citizenship by the authorities.  Special dispensation (such that it is) may be granted to blooded family and adopted merchants - but I wouldn't suggest relying on that.

House members are House members first and citizens second.  If a 'nakkie born Kuraci is told to go break an Allanaki law, he will go break an Allanaki law.  If he is told to go help the Tuluk, he will go help Tuluk.  Even the authorities take a new view and treat house members differently.  A Kuraci picked up for smuggling in Allanak is treated different from a 'rinther smuggling spice in Allanak.

Now, a southern Kuraci might be treated differently in Allanak then a northern Kuraci, but both are treated different because they are Kuraci.  Merchant House members are viewed with a mixture of suspicion and caution regardless if they are citizens or not.  They are not considered "normal" loyal citizens who are just doing their job.  They are considered to be loyal to their house first, and citizens second.  The Templerate might want them to be citizens first and house members first, but that isn't the reality of the matter.  Being an Allanaki stone carver is not the same as being an Allanaki Kuraci.  The stone carver is going to be viewed as a normal citizen.  The Kuraci is going to viewed as someone who is loyal to Kuraci first and foremost.  Merchant Houses would be wise to encourage this sort of division as it keeps their employees loyal and less likely to act as spies for a city state.

[Angela Christine]

If not some sort of "central" accent, then most merchant house family members should probably start with both accents.  A Kadian born in Allanak is going to have aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. and other close family members that were born in Tuluk.  Children are good at learning accents, it would make perfect sense to make sure that they are exposed to as many languages and accents as possible when young, and very little sense to keep the children segregated and restricted.  If you segregate your family into northern and southern sections, then the almost unavoidable consequence is going to be rifts between the divisions, and eventually the House eventually splitting into two or more completely independant Houses.

I, too, wish that Luir's would more often be used as a neutral hub for meeting and trading.  This isn't because of a lack of activity in Luir's (far from it), or necessarily from clan bias, it is because it only makes sense.  Luir's is the center of the Known World, and one of the few - if not the only - place(s) that can claim to be a melting pot of cultures.  It is the place to go if you want to find something or someone. If you look at the laws, you can see that all of them are geared toward making trade and business as smooth and as profitable as possible, so long as you respect Kuraci hospitality.  

But if you don't go to the other city, how do you make trade contacts there?  The example of merchants meeting up to trade shells for logs doesn't work unless they know eachother, and arrange to be in Luirs at the same time.  

The alternatives don't work so well: 1) take your load of logs to Luir's and wait around until someone comes along who wants to trade for or buy them, which could be a very long wait,  or 2) sell your logs to NPC merchants or Kuraci PCs, which wouldn't be nearly as profitable because the NPC or Kuraci merchants will take a huge cut.  You might be able to directly trade your logs for an equal weight in obsidian (which you can sell at home for twice what the logs were worth at home) but if you sell your logs and then buy obsidian you are probably going to go home with only 1/4 as much obsidan, and no profit at all.  The third option is take your load to the other city state yourself, a dangerous prospect, with the posibility of even higher profit but also the chance huge fines, taxes or worse from the foriegn government (not to mention unfriendly local thugs).



Angela Christine

[LoD]

Part of the job sure, but it felt exactly like that, it wasn't great RP, it wasn't political interaction, it was getting other pcs some cool stuff. If you have too much ground to cover it turns into work, and I come here to relax, not carry on my 40 hour week.

If you are here to relax, in all sincerity, don't assume a leadership role.  This MUD is a game, and games are about having fun.  Armageddon can be a whole lot more than a game, however, because of how meaningful and well developed the story can become.  Leadership roles are valuable and incredible vehicles through which you can write entire chapters, but it comes at a cost of time, effort and sometimes, yes, work.  As a leader, you inherently have groups of people that depend upon you for direction, payment, management and RP.  If you are a responsible person, then you will feel an obligation and desire to meet their needs because you are the one in charge.

Is it sometimes like work?  You bet.  It has to be if you're going to be able to contact everyone, pay everyone, meet with everyone wanting to speak with you and still manage to find a little time for your own fun.  But there are great rewards to the characters and players that can manage these positions.  You can accomplish great things.  You can provide a lot of direction and a platform upon which many other players can base their play.  It takes a strong role as well as a lot of work, but it isn't "fair" to other players if you assume a leadership role that comes with good and bad, and don't want to deal with the bad.

Personally, I think you make some massive generalisations with this thread. Having played in more than one merchant house recently I don't think that every house is exactly the same.  If there was any 'division' it was still very co-operative and I experienced both travel to other city states and transfers of a longer nature.

I don't know that I would label any generalizations massive.  I simply know how things were at one time, and how I perceive them now.  And they are different.  And they are, IMHO, worse with regards to this topic.  

When I travelled with my merchant, making money, getting into plots, providing sources of work for my employees, I kept a log of all of the people that I had hired over the period of playing him, and I also kept track of the largest my clan became while playing.

When I retired, I'd hired over 350+ characters.  At the height of my clan's operation, there were 37 active members (meaning those logging in at least once a week).  This is the kind of potential that you have as a clan leader to affect and interact with the game if you so choose.  People gravitate toward good leadership, because that is where the fun is happening.  You'll see it time after time because the people who just want to relax and have fun are the followers that enjoy a good leader assuming the mantle of the "work" part of the game and simply give them the "fun" part they want.

There's a lot of potential out there for people to get involved, but the north-south division keeps a lot of that reigned in, and it's diappointing.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

I didn't agree completely about the tribals, but I do agree about this
merchant's issue.  When you join a merchant house, you should be
considered a neutral that could swing either way, regardless of where
you happened to be born.  Being the pendulum could create some great
intrigue...now if only more nobles could seek to curry favor with people
lower than them on the food chain, rather than alienate merchants and
potentially turn an entire house against them.

Also, I rather miss seeing merchants in Allanak.

[Cuusardo]

About having relatives in one city or the other, merchant house families are very big, from what I've been told.  You might not even know how far down the line your ancestor in common was.  All you know is that they're your "cousins" and they are Kadius/Salarr/Kurac.

Luir's could serve as a great neutral trading ground, yes, but there would still be biases and slanted deals.  Why?  Because Luir's is owned, run, and policed by Kurac.  What they want, happens.

I think that stricter lines should be made between merchant family members who are there to be merchants, and those who are there to deal with politics.  I've seen Agents who did both, and they were extremely swamped with work due to the fact that everybody needs something from them.

And lastly, the merchant houses are going to have northern and southern divisions no matter what.  Sure, they're "neutral."  They have to be so they can stay in the city-states and continue their business.  Neutrality is very bendable, however.  If the city-states go to war again, Salarr is going to sell weapons and armor to both of them.  Kurac will still sell them desert gear, and spice.  Kadius will still sell them clothes.  However, that doesn't mean that any of them won't secretly side with the other on some issues, or assassinate people in either city, and so on.  Those born in either city will naturally absorb the culture and have opinions based on this.

However, (holy crap, I'm starting to feel like marko and AC posting all this) I don't think that the northern and southern branches of the merchant houses should feel like different clans.  Ultimately, they are all working toward the same goals for their respective Houses.  Of course they're going to have to travel periodically, because there are materials that can be found around one region that you can find in another.  Some agents and merchants are going to have to travel between city states for various reasons.  (That doesn't mean they have to like it.)

[Twilight]

I agree with LoD.

There was a definate shift that happened when the accent code went in.  It, in my mind, drastically impacted the RP environment of the game.  This is one of the things it impacted.  Previously, if you were in the know you might understand that Merchant X was originally from the North and treat them a little different.  If you weren't in the know you had no clue.  It was subtle.

Now you look at the code output and can say, Oh a Northerner.  And then you apply cookie cutter reaction that you do to anyone speaking with a northern accent.  I think this is fine for most situations.  I think this is drastically bad when you start talking about the Merchant Houses.

[X-D]

Currently, using luirs as a hub I think is unlikley because ICly, least with any pc my chars run into, they seem to have poor rep.

As somebody said,

The only problem with Luirs... is all those damn Kuraci.

Many PC's consider luirs too dangerous to stay in and from what I see, the kurac pc's act too high  handed and seem to forget that they are in fact a merchant house, dependant on trade. Most current kurac pc's I see alianate the other pc's that do come through and the outpost even has things on the board to make it worse. Like complaints about people resting mounts instead of stabling them, silly, you want people to use the stables, get your house PCs out there and make people want to stay, have fun and spend sid. The Kurac PC's do not push the houses entertainments and when they do its normaly not in a friendly manner. Myself, I see kurac turning into too much of a mercenary house, least in actions and mindset. When in reality they should be a bit more laidback and fun loving, Hey, they are the house of whores/gambling/spice are they not? Lets face it, if you have to worry at every turn that your PC is gonna offend some kurac guard/officer etc, you sure as fuck are not getting a whore, you might have to take your belt off then. It should be -HARD- to offend a kurac pc, but in practice its easier normaly to offend them then a fucking black robe templar.

Kadius, I've not a clue what they are doing, I see a pc now and again, but thats about it.

Salarr seems to be in some sort of transition or something, though they seem active enough, I do notice a lack of active merchants for some reason.

I do think the merchants and other pcs of all three houses need to get out and try to sell more, push the house goods, specialy the crafted items, I know, from playing crafters that there are many items made by pc's that can be sold for a good price if the pc's outside the house know about them.

[Tamarin]

Ya...I agree with you X-D.   I really don't exactly know what's going on with all three houses, especially Kadius.  My current impressions are as follows:

Salarr: They're around.  Seem to be pretty thin, population wise.

Kadius: Yeah...Kadius needs a jump start.  It's damn near impossible to order anything from Kadius, because they do not (afaik) have a complete list of the Kadian database of items.  Why this is..I don't know.  And so basically, anyone who plays a Kadian merchant gets frustrated out of their minds with not being able to make orders in a decent amount of time.

Kurac: They scare me.  I don't want to go in Luir's.  I don't want to go near Luir's.  I don't even want to particularly go near the Tooth, out of fear of being dragged into the back room by a bunch of Kuraci PCs and beaten to death.

So yeah.

[LoD]

If the city-states go to war again, Salarr is going to sell weapons and armor to both of them.  Kurac will still sell them desert gear, and spice.  Kadius will still sell them clothes.  However, that doesn't mean that any of them won't secretly side with the other on some issues, or assassinate people in either city, and so on.  Those born in either city will naturally absorb the culture and have opinions based on this.

Perhaps.  PC's nowhere near the top of the family food chain may make decisions to help a given city-state secretly with their limited resources and actions, thereby creating the feeling that "House X" aided "City Y", but do you really beleive the actions of that single person were representative of the whole?  Furthermore, do you not believe that due to a lack of players on the southern side of things, virtual units of Kadius were not currying favor with Allanaki concerns during that time to ensure that their presence and ability profit there did not diminish?

Taken from a scene in Braveheart where the Scottish Lords are discussing their negotiations with the English, the father of the most influential Scottish family hears news of a rebellion.  He tells his son to have his lands in the north support the rebellion, while having his lands in the south condemn it.  This is exactly the kind of careful politics that these Great Merchant Houses have played to get where they are now.

Merchant Houses will have long learned how to manipulate the power players of the game world into believing that any disadvantages to having them present in the city-state is outweighed by the advantages that the House brings in as a whole.  Most common with PC merchants, however, is that they are nowhere near that level.  They are a simple unit within a House comprised of hundreds and perhaps thousands of people.

The game is moving more and more away[/i] from a setup that encourages the most varied interaction for all levels of play.  We already have a low player base and we increase the amount of accessible tribes?  We decrease the number of PC's travelling between city-states within the Merchant Houses, which are the easiest clans with which to gain employment and give someone a quick purpose?  

Why not bring up three servers, "Server Tuluk", "Sever Outdoors" and "Server Allanak" and you'll probably be well on your way to where Armageddon seems to be headed with the occasional mystical magickal wyvern dragon sorc ramming his army of "pick-a-creature" through your area while you sit around wondering which 10% of the player base actually gets to participate on how things develop this time.

Simple PC-PC conflicts of interest will provide the most material for potential plots, RP and adventure on a day-to-day basis than anything else.  Basic values of greed, prejudice, racism, jealousy, pride and lust would provide the player base with an infinitely complex and interesting platform upon which to play if it the pieces were encouraged to move in ways that brought these peoples of varied values, interests and wants together.

-LoD

[Halaster]

Might be a slight derail, might not.  I saw someone mention Luir's and how they wish it was actually used more of a central hub than it is.  And I agree, I'd like to see it more like that too.

Personally though, I think the reason that's been so slack is due to the remapping/revamping of the outpost.  It's quite a few more 'steps' to get inside Luir's and park your wagon and get out and do stuff.  It truly is much much easier to just bypass the whole thing.  It used to be easy.. you just drove in the south gate, parked right off the road, then went right out the north gate.  Now it's such a detour, that I've seen people intentionally skipping the outpost because of that.  I know I do.

[Jherlen]

LoD, I'm curious to know how long ago Khann Salarr was alive and what the playerbase numbers were like back then. I'm by no means trying to diminish your accomplishments with him, but I do think that it's clear the game is evolving and launching comparisons too far back might not always be applicable.

My definition of 'hell' is when, as a merchant, you are bombarded with demands and orders from nobles and templars from the moment you log in to the moment you log out. On top of this you must entertain requests from countless PCs for random 300 sid item orders. On top of -that- you need to administrate employees in your clan, which means paying salaries, taking reports, disciplining, and trying to keep your crafting hall somewhat organized.

Having played one of those roles in the past for several months, I know about the duties of leadership and accept the fact that a leader is going to be busy. I'm not afraid of that, nor do I think a busy leader is a bad thing. I do, however, think that being swamped as a leader is a bad thing, and I don't see how one or two PCs in a merchant clan could be enough to satisfy the demands of two templarates, five noble houses, two militias, and general populaces of both cities on their own. Unless you could find players who played about 8 hours a day consistently, and could convince all of them to take leader roles in a merchant house (you'd need at least 6 to have one active Agent and Merchant for each House), I don't see how this would have a hope of working logistically.

Being an active PC merchant in just one city and carrying out all the duties above was a full load of work for me. Luckily I had a little bit of time to focus on my own character and his development - but this was only because I was able to play at around 3 am EST and luckily found a few other players who I could interact with at that time. The rest of the time I was busy enough just running around taking care of everyone demanding orders or pay or whatever that my poor PC could barely sit down. If my clan imms had told me I was expected to start working in -both- cities I don't see how my PC alone would have had the time to get everything done. He would have needed to find an assistant to manage things in the city he wasn't in... and then essentially you're back to the 'northern' and 'southern' employee system again, just with people who might be rotating a lot and confusing everyone.

Again, I do think merchant houses travel a bit more than people realize. I could possibly see some encouragement for them to rotate a bit more, maybe switch cities every IC month or something. But you need to give the poor PCs time to settle in to a city, establish contacts and get a rhythm going. I don't think expecting them to travel between Allanak and Tuluk a few times a week at the beck and call of people in both cities is feasible.

[jhunter]

Good point. I hadn't actually thought of that but now that you mention it Halaster I've noticed it too. People seem to want to just pass through instead of hanging about the outpost as much as they used to before the rebuilding.

[Agent_137]

Perhaps Kurac should just destroy Salarr and Kadius. I mean, kurac does a lot of movement between the cities, as I've seen.

Won't that solve the problem?

[jhunter]

I don't think expecting them to travel between Allanak and Tuluk a few times a week at the beck and call of people in both cities is feasible

It's feasible, I've seen it done back when there was more travelling going on.

[Morgenes]

Just a quick note on the accent discussion, from help accent:

Knowing how to convincingly speak with a foreign accent (i.e. an accent
different from your character's regional accent) is a special ability which
can only be learned by listening to those who speak with the accent better
than your character.  Similar to learning a language, the learning curve is
extremely steep at first, so that one will require a very long time to
finally understand the basics of an accent.

It is possible to learn to speak with another accent.

I personally agree with the poster.  The merchant houses should be playing a greater role in making the world feel more cohesive, and facilitating travel and trade between the cities.

[Marauder Moe]

One thing that many PC merchants never seem to realize is that on Zalanthas you can say no to a common customer.  Special orders should only be for special customers, like nobles, templars, or merchant family members.  If  hunter Amos wants a blackened, jahkal-carved wooden sword of prettiness, tell him to fuck off and stop wasting your valuable time with his unimportant self.  He can go search the shop or go find your non-family junior sub-merchant if you have one.  I believe a simple attitude-change like that would make house merchants a lot less stressful to play.

As for the north-south division, I thought for a time merchant house PCs were required by their houses to serve some time in the opposite city-state.  Perhaps that policy was revoked for IC reasons, though.  I don't know.

[LoD]

LoD, I'm curious to know how long ago Khann Salarr was alive and what the playerbase numbers were like back then. I'm by no means trying to diminish your accomplishments with him, but I do think that it's clear the game is evolving and launching comparisons too far back might not always be applicable.

Others have accomplished many things besides me: Medichi Kadius, Rhydun Kurac, Sargax Kurac.  It's a good point though.  The game has evolved and changed since I last played an active Merchant House PC.  Perhaps it's time to give another one a try.

I -have- played in the recent game as a PC leader with the Byn for about 2 RL years and witnessed the changes then.  One of his goals was the northern Byn compound.  Should there only be a northern Byn and a southern Byn without any of that interaction?  Lord knows our initial presence there so soon after the war provided a LOT of interesting RP for both sides of the fence.  It would be a pity should that interaction been removed in lieu of a more territory-friendly representative.

My definition of 'hell' is when, as a merchant, you are bombarded with demands and orders from nobles and templars from the moment you log in to the moment you log out. On top of this you must entertain requests from countless PCs for random 300 sid item orders. On top of -that- you need to administrate employees in your clan, which means paying salaries, taking reports, disciplining, and keeping the crafting room clean.

I consider these to simply be the mantle of leadership.  Some wear it better than others and deal with the stress and pace of the role more easily.  It's not easy, that's for sure.  There were often nights that I wouldn't want to login, because just logging in was an automatic hour of answering questions and doing things.  But you CAN manage it with proper time management and setting priorities.

Having played one of those roles in the past for several months, I know about the duties of leadership and accept the fact that a leader is going to be busy. I'm not afraid of that, nor do I think a busy leader is a bad thing. I do, however, think that being swamped as a leader is a bad thing, and I don't see how one or two PCs in a merchant clan could be enough to satisfy the demands of two templarates, five noble houses, two militias, and general populaces of both cities on their own.

I played Khann for 3 RL years, so perhaps I simply had more time to adjust to working in that environment and am speaking from the end of that experience rather than the beginning.  I didn't start as a Merchant House employee, however, but as a simple independant merchant buying and selling goods north-south and making my run with 3 kanks.

I'm certainly not advocating that we move to a one-merchant system, but that the merchants who do exist take the opportunity to travel with their employees more than they presently do.  That we do away with the north-south division and simply have merchants doing merchanty things, to whomever seems to have a need.  Special orders were a problem when I was playing as well, and so were the nobles and templars that wanted them, but you managed to get through.

But many of the players will learn to accept what YOU establish as the rules, despite what they threaten.  Learn what the process is and give people realistic goals for when they can expect something from you, then deliver on that promise.  Perhaps the merchant came more naturally to me because I'n a salesman in real life and many of the principles transition into the game.  Maybe not.  Regardless of what it was, there comes a point when you develop a system for yourself that works.  You'll still be busy, but I always find the rewards to be worth the effort.

[marko]

But many of the players will learn to accept what YOU establish as the rules, despite what they threaten.  Learn what the process is and give people realistic goals for when they can expect something from you, then deliver on that promise.  Perhaps the merchant came more naturally to me because I'n a salesman in real life and many of the principles transition into the game.  Maybe not.  Regardless of what it was, there comes a point when you develop a system for yourself that works.  You'll still be busy, but I always find the rewards to be worth the effort.

I felt this was worth repeating.

Basically, for any family member merchants out in the game now - my suggestion to you is to request getting both the northern and southern accents from your imms if you currently do not have them.  I believe that both accents should be given to all blooded family members since it just makes sense to me.  The Houses have the resources to set this up and before accents were in the game - we can assume that's exactly what was going on.

Next, start traveling.

[Halaster]

My definition of 'hell' is when, as a merchant, you are bombarded with demands and orders from nobles and templars from the moment you log in to the moment you log out. On top of this you must entertain requests from countless PCs for random 300 sid item orders. On top of -that- you need to administrate employees in your clan, which means paying salaries, taking reports, disciplining, and keeping the crafting room clean.

I consider these to simply be the mantle of leadership.  Some wear it better than others and deal with the stress and pace of the role more easily.  It's not easy, that's for sure.  There were often nights that I wouldn't want to login, because just logging in was an automatic hour of answering questions and doing things.  But you CAN manage it with proper time management and setting priorities.

Just a point of note, but one big part of the reason we stopped special orders and went to the master crafter system was for this very reason.  PC merchants were overwhealmed with special orders for stuff.  Hopefully some current PC merchants will speak up, but I imagine that a good deal of this has been alleviated with the new way of doing things.

[X-D]

Well, I agree with Halaster on the new revamp of luirs, it does make it more likley you will simply pass through, it also makes Luirs seem as if it -wants- to be more closed off, making no sense since it is supposed to be a trading outpost.

But, my chars don't even do that, they avoid the outpost altogether, and I know -many- others that do the same, my chars never go to the tooth and would be more likley to visit the rinth wearing silk and no weapons, safer. Don't even go to red storm because the kurac influence there is too strong, which also makes no sense to me, one would think the sandlord would not stand for such things, but who knows.

No, if my chars want desert style gear they go to the blackwing outpost, where the elves just try to cheat you. Pretty bad when a bunch of tribal skinnies understand the importance of trade with the world more then a "great" merchant house.

[Aldiel]

I like it how it is.  It's realistic.

*edit*
And more unknown people doesn't make better RP.   Some of the best RP I have is with characters my character has known for years and years.

[Supreme Allah]

One thing that many PC merchants never seem to realize is that on Zalanthas you can say no to a common customer.  Special orders should only be for special customers, like nobles, templars, or merchant family members.  If  hunter Amos wants a blackened, jahkal-carved wooden sword of prettiness, tell him to fuck off and stop wasting your valuable time with his unimportant self.  He can go search the shop or go find your non-family junior sub-merchant if you have one.  I believe a simple attitude-change like that would make house merchants a lot less stressful to play.

Sorry to derail a bit, but I think that would seriously diminish a Merchant House's reputation among the common populace, Mr. Moe. And even if it proves untrue in-game, you must remember that the vast, vast majority of the income that house gets is likely from the (VNPC) common hunters/warriors/people-who-don't-like-to-be-defenseless, not the sparse numbers of nobility or templarate.

Merchant House family members are influential, yes, but to my knowledge, they're certainly not supposed to be inaccessible like templars or southern nobility are. I've always thought a particularly wise merchant would likely forsake the use of the "essential" NPC guards most seem to carry about simply to make themselves look more accessible, nonthreatening and friendly in appearance to the common folk and the uncommon folk alike.

To go back on track, I think LoD's really onto something. When I played a leader with Salarr some time ago, I myself did make a point to travel, and travel often, between the cities - sometimes in secret or without other employees. Though the character was neither northern or southern, he had a "northern" accent, as this was before other options were available. He did run into some problems when trying to deal with certain southerners, and often, even without looking at him and despite his pretty distinctive Salarri garb, people would just assume that because of his accent, he was a filthy stinking northerner, even when (I felt) he didn't really look it and was clad head-to-toe in the colors and insignia of Salarr. Merchant Houses need to be viewed as far more neutral than they are, because that is the reputation that they strive to keep. And for the most part, they really should have that reputation.

I also disagree with what X-D's said about the current state of the Kurac. My experiences with them have been great. I think perhaps you may be exaggerating a certain few instances.

[Supreme Allah]

I like it how it is.  It's realistic.

*edit*
And more unknown people doesn't make better RP.   Some of the best RP I have is with characters my character has known for years and years.

It makes the world more diverse, Aldiel, and offers a greater variety of interaction when all the PCs you see aren't the same ones you see every time you walk into the Sanctuary or the Barrel or down Caravan Road.

This isn't to say that your character must meet new people and the roleplay will be superior at all times. It means that there's more possibilities and there's more realism when you simply don't know every name and face you come across.

[Rindan]

This is a little off topic, but I think it would be great if Luir's was more accomidating to independent merchants.  One thing that could go a LONG ways to making Luir's more worthwhile would be if Kurac was able to offer warehouse space.  If my Northerner comes up with two kanks worth of logs, he either needs to sell it on the spot or else he is screwed.  A simple way around this would be if Luir's offered warehouse space.  For a few 'sid a month, you could dump stuff off in a well guarded room in a warehouse.  Let people pay many months in advance so that they can drop off goods and leave.  This way, a southerner might stock up a few tons of wood over the course of a few months, spend some time in Luirs trying to find a buyer, then leave if no one showed.  Eventually he would find a buyer, then sell off the contents to a southerner.  The southerner could transfer the wood to his warehouse holding spot and move it back to Allanak slowly as needed.

[Intrepid]

Speaking as someone in the middle of a corporate restructuring in rl, I can
tell you that having one mobile group handling everything and backing
each other up when orders get out of control is far, far more efficient than
having three to four small groups that have lulls in activity but are stuck in
one place and cannot assist their coworkers when a surge in activity takes
place in another branch.

That said, there's a lot to be said for "plausible deniability" in the intrigue
setting.  Merchant houses can be universally neutral with their pawns or
members acting in personal interests against one settlement or another.
The result is that you have a group that is slightly less trusted than the
typical commoner but supports all sides to survive and prosper, but not
necessarily conquer each other.  As such, merchants become the lifeblood
of no single settlement, but civilization as a whole.

If one member gets caught committing treasonous acts, the merchant
house condemns the act publically but scolds the member privately for
getting caught--not for committing the act.  Regardless of this suspicious
situation, merchants are people who overlap all social groups and societal
levels, so they end up being the ultimate flies on the wall--flies who,
despite being less trusted, end up soaking in a lot of information just from
being in the room and being able to sell it to the other side.  None of the
patriots in the benefitting city/village will ever turn in such a valuable
informant unless he/she crossed them severely, so you only need worry
about competing spies, either from that same house or from another
house who would be operating the exact same way as you.  The Way
makes acquiring the proof difficult, but not impossible; ie, someone will
slip up from time to time.

So really, I'd have to say that the merchants could become far more
dangerous and Machiavellian in the political scheme by having their
groups involve themselves in civilization across the board, rather than
compartmentalizing the branches by location.

[Kuraci Kank]

Kurac: They scare me. I don't want to go in Luir's. I don't want to go near Luir's. I don't even want to particularly go near the Tooth, out of fear of being dragged into the back room by a bunch of Kuraci PCs and beaten to death.

I am both amused and annoyed by this prevalent sentiment.

The Outpost is Kurac run and Kurac owned, and those sketchy bastards do have a sense of justice and an aim for smooth trade and profitable business, so just play by their rules and you'll come out just fine.  Break those rules, and that's your own damn fault.


The reputations (deserved or not) of some PCs notwithstanding, Kurac is perhaps one of the only clans most true to the mantra "profit above all".  Profit is survival, and so they do everything they can to promote profit.  Some PCs in the past may have appeared to be hard or high-handed, but rest assured that there was definite Kuraci justice behind it - and if they did it in such a way that damaged trade, I imagine their superiors taught them the (painful) lesson of their mistake.  Especially if it was a lower ranking PC that doesn't "get it" yet.

Repeat it with me:  Kurac is all about business.

If you come to the outpost, trade, go home, Kurac won't mind.  If you come to the outpost to hang out, shoot the breeze, or in general not cause trouble, Kuraci isn't going to give two shits about you.  If you come to trade or otherwise bring some form of profit, Kurac will love you.  So long as you obey their very simple and straightforward laws.

There are PCs that have insulted a Kuraci Sergeant, apologized after, bought a couple drinks, and never got bothered again.  Who cares?  Smooth business, let's keep it rolling.

There are PCs that threatened a Sergeant's life, tried buy their safety by threatening the authority of another city state while in the Outpost, and seemed suprised that they got ganked without mercy.  Hello?

There are PCs who had kanks resting instead of paying the 20 sid to stable it, right in front of the tavern, and got waved on down the road without any trouble.  Gee, I wonder why - maybe because they had gotten in good somehow with a Kuraci.

There are PCs who had kanks resting instead of paying the 20 sid to stable it, copped an attitude with the Kuraci they'd come to meet and with the annoyed Kuraci that had stabled it and was holding the ticket, and so instead of getting their kank back free, they lost it entirely.

As a personal side note, having kanks resting all over the roads when there is a stable nearby is just ridiculous - I've seen PCs resting their kanks out in the dunes just beside the Outpost walls so that they don't have to pay the 20 sid just to stable it.  That strikes me as far more ridiculous than a Kurac asking you to move it along to the stables so that you don't clog up traffic.  I think a soldier in any of the city-states would ask you to stable your kank as well, if they saw you parked outside the Sanctuary or the Bard's Barrel.

Get a little rowdy in the bar while drunk, and no one is going to mind.  Get a little rowdy in the bar and start picking a fight with a Kuraci merchant, and don't be suprised when you get booted on your ass out the door and told to sober up before you come back.  Then you avoid the Outpost for the rest of your character's life because you think Kurac's out to get you?  That's absolutely ridiculous and of no one's fault but your own paranoia.  No one gives a shit about you - sorry to disappoint.

Struggle and refuse to come peacefully (or worse, abuse the fact that we can't codedly subdue you without risking NPC death, which we DO try our HARDEST to avoid), and all you do is annoy the fuck out of the soldiers that are just doing their jobs.  Annoyed soldiers are not generally something you want on your character's ass.  Again, it's all about common sense and applying it to a situation.  

Simply put: be useful to Kurac and they will love you.  Irritate Kurac and they'll boot you out of the way and not think about it again. Betray or act against Kurac in a manner large enough for them to care, and don't be suprised when you get ganked.

[Anonymous]

One thing that many PC merchants never seem to realize is that on Zalanthas you can say no to a common customer.  Special orders should only be for special customers, like nobles, templars, or merchant family members.  If  hunter Amos wants a blackened, jahkal-carved wooden sword of prettiness, tell him to fuck off and stop wasting your valuable time with his unimportant self.  He can go search the shop or go find your non-family junior sub-merchant if you have one.  I believe a simple attitude-change like that would make house merchants a lot less stressful to play.

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

[Agent_137]

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

If a player only has X much time,  and noble type orders are taking up X-1 hours, joe commoner shouldn't get priority. Now, obviously, if the merchant is sitting on his ass and skimming some spice, then feck yea, he should tend to the commoner.

[Anonymous]

As a personal side note, having kanks resting all over the roads when there is a stable nearby is just ridiculous - I've seen PCs resting their kanks out in the dunes just beside the Outpost walls so that they don't have to pay the 20 sid just to stable it.  That strikes me as far more ridiculous than a Kurac asking you to move it along to the stables so that you don't clog up traffic.  I think a soldier in any of the city-states would ask you to stable your kank as well, if they saw you parked outside the Sanctuary or the Bard's Barrel.

Consider the Wild West and horses. People could go tie their horse up outside the tavern or general store without having to pay a heavy fee, or any fee for that matter.

I think the stable fee should be changed. Pay 50 coins and you receive a token that lets you put your kank in that stable for no further charge any time for a month. That represents a real stable, where they feed and water the animal and it emerges rested. In Luir's, where they presumably would like to encourage business from the constant flow of travellers, also offer a 'kank hitch', a pen where your beast will be safe until you return but that's about it. If you don't return within two days, too bad, it's gone.

[marko]

I was really hoping this wouldn't descend into a Kurac derailment so I'm gonna try and guide it to where it is back in lines with the overall discussion.  I've been trying not to respond about Luir's but I think it's part of the discussion about merchant houses and travel between the culture centers.

This what I've seen and heard, at a general level, of Kurac and Luir's.  

Luir's continues to be perceived as a dangerous place to go.  It is not a trading outpost it is a Kurac stronghold.  The difference is significant and PCs understand it.  Many PCs don't want to go into Luir's to avoid the stabling charge - they don't want to go in because Kurac has given itself a reputation as being unreasonable, harsh, heavy-handed, over-the-top, unpredicatable, and downright dangerous to even attempt to do business with or around.

Kurac has developed this reputation.  This reputation has gotten to the point that it is now an OOC stigma as well as an IC perception.  I've heard characters, in the game, talk about how the justice of the Highlord is better than that of Kurac.  

As to whether this reputation is currently deserved I will not pass judgement or offer an opinion either way - I'm just saying that this is how Kurac and Luir's is perceived by many (no, not by all).

I believe this is important to the discussion since Luir's used to be a stop-over for many travelers and now people are avoiding it.  Therefore, we're losing out on a great place to sit back and swap tales in a safe haven.  I think the perception of Kurac is part of why this is happening combined (or heightened) by the new structure of the outpost.

For many Luir's isn't considered to be a safe place to stop over.  For others, it is a hassle to get into with the new layout.  Take the two situations and you see people avoiding Luir's.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

If a player only has X much time,  and noble type orders are taking up X-1 hours, joe commoner shouldn't get priority. Now, obviously, if the merchant is sitting on his ass and skimming some spice, then feck yea, he should tend to the commoner.

Then the House should hire another merchant to deal with all the business it is missing. Why pass up the chance for the additional profit?

If you're going to claim this is limited by the number of PCs, then I'll come back with the claim that the PC merchants aren't really X-1 hours busy (unless they hardly log in at all).

[X-D]

The Outpost is Kurac run and Kurac owned, and those sketchy bastards do have a sense of justice and an aim for smooth trade and profitable business, so just play by their rules and you'll come out just fine. Break those rules, and that's your own damn fault.

Maybe they do, I'll not argue that at all, but they do a poor job of putting you at ease while your there, and if you don't "feel" safe then your not going to do business there or spend any time there, plain and simple.

There are PCs that have insulted a Kuraci Sergeant, apologized after, bought a couple drinks, and never got bothered again. Who cares? Smooth business, let's keep it rolling.

Course, often, I'd even dare to say its the kurac/sarge that starts the insults, petty most the time, who I suppose does not expect to get insulted in return, who gets all bent out of shape on the matter.
Again, a poor showing and one that simply does not invite people to travel out of their nice safe cities where they can do business anyway.

Now, I have to say, I've always enjoyed the play of any kurac family member any of my chars have ever met.

I simply cannot say the same for just about anybody else in the clan.

Funny thing is, with every char I make I give them a chance, I've even had some citizens of Luirs, but the results always come out the same, the char ends up either avoiding them or hating them to the point of hunting them.

And no matter what you say is supposed to be, it still remains that in the last 3 weeks I've been playing, My char has met no less then eight other pc's that do what they can to avoid Luirs and Kuracis in general. Now, with most, I'm not sure if they have done something to have reason, its possible, but from what I've seen in the past, I'd bet instead it is Kurac who has.

(edit to add disclaimer)
Was thinking on it, and I wish to change one thing, during the time when Kurac was holding the first Tregil wrestling and pit fights I actually enjoyed the clan and most the pc's in it, and the two chars of that time would often spend time in the tooth and in luirs.

[Adhira]

Please do not use this forum to slam other clans and their RP and IC actions. If this continues, this thread will be locked.

[ale six]

I don't like this idea. Travel is nice and good, but I think it's for the risk-takers and independents who don't mind the stigma of being a foreigner in a big foreign city.

Personally, if I was playing a noble or templar, I would want to keep family merchants local to my area. I wouldn't really like it if I had to outfit my guards from the very same Salarri PC who might go to the other city the next week and sell things to my enemies. As a southern noble or templar I would be downright offended if anybody wearing northern tattoos and speaking in a northern accent tried to sell me anything, and likewise I would think northern nobles and templars would be offended if untattooed barbarian southrons came offering them goods.

I can't help but laugh when I think of some hapless merchant saying... "Oh sorry, Lady Templar Tektoy, I'm up north selling stuff to Faithful Lady Lirathabitch right now. But uh... she's not picking my brain for information about you! Honest!"

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

On to OOC concerns. I'll try and phrase this as nicely as possible, but LoD, you aren't the only leader who has ever played in this game. You do have a lot of experience, I'm sure, but the attitude I've seen in your responses is that since you have so much leadership under your belt, you must be right and everyone should be a leader like you. There's nothing wrong with players who want to be able to lead a clan while still being able to relax and have fun with their role. You've attempted to preach to at least two different people in this thread about what leader players should be and do, and to me it just sounds arrogant. I've played leaders, both mid-level and upper level, and none of them have had near the workload of something like a merchant who is expected to sell to the entire playerbase of both cities. If someone wanted me to take a role like that I would start asking for a paycheck. This is a game, not a job.

[X-D]

Adhira

Not slamming, if it seems that way to you, well, I don't know what to say.

What I am doing is stating problems as I see them, and suggestions to fix them, if you  read posts leading up to later ones, you would see that. Now, others see other problems and/or don't see what I think of as a problem but instead an asset, We, players, as well as staff are entitled to our opinions I thought.

Also, it is a general discussion board. And since nobody on this thread has been flaming or letting out IC-information, again, I don't see the problem.

Also, Yes, you are staff, but, if slamming clans (still have not done so in my opinion) Is in fact against the rules of this board, please have it posted as such.

Actually, Myself, I think this has been, so far, a pretty tame thread with reasonably thought out posts and simply don't see how it can hurt at all, might even help, I've seen a few suggestions that I may attempt to put into affect as far as My PC's are concerned.

And maybe Kurac will work on thier rep (or maybe they have been and like it currently)

And maybe Kadius will become more organized.

And maybe Salarr will also and work harder to establish a presence in the world.

Or maybe these are not problems at all and we are being silly...shrug.

(edit)
I want to clarify one thing I did say.
As to the enjoyment of the play of others.
This was not meant in a manner of saying it was poor RP, far be it, I don't think I've seen what I might consider poor RP of any PC in Kurac. It was only meant that it is a manner that I do not -enjoy-, and last I saw, it was a game played for enjoyment. I hope that makes sense.

[Adhira]

Suggestions are fine. Specific mention of pcs, incidents or otherwise, or statements that include the words 'petty' seem to me to be bordering on flaming.

Flaming is against the rules.

Obviously this board is for discussion, and suggestions, on ways to make the game better. If you have any further problems with my previous statement, please email me. I'd like this thread to get back on topic.

[LoD Snarf]

I don't like this idea. Travel is nice and good, but I think it's for the risk-takers and independents who don't mind the stigma of being a foreigner in a big foreign city.

The Great Merchant Houses have had a presence in both city-states for RL decades, and for either city-state's citizens to believe that the northern branch of House Salarr or Kadius is 'loyal' or 'sympathetic' to their cause is both naive and dangerous.  They are businesses with a monopoly in their respective fields that have operated between wars, fights and scuffles for hundreds of years.  I believe that it would be understood these organizations sell to opposition and allies alike.

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

The two cities are at war no more than they have been for most of the game, and less so than when there were actual military campaigns being pushed.  There has always been a precarious tension between the north and south, but the Merchant Houses are neither "northern" nor "southern".  And it should be apparent to either city-state, and its nobles and templars, that the House Agents are more diplomatic and neutral in their trade than a local vendor.

If one of the city-states was to make demands of a Merchant House to the degree that it required they cease functions in other parts of the world then they would soon find themselves haing to import everything from that other city-state or making it themselves.  If you had people travel, then at least some of these northern or southern folks could RP their distaste or dislike for the other culture, but I think you would find that over time they would come to be accepted and treated the same as their counterparts as long as they remained true to their trade.

I'll try and phrase this as nicely as possible, but LoD, you aren't the only leader who has ever played in this game.  There's nothing wrong with players who want to be able to lead a clan while still being able to relax and have fun with their role. You've attempted to preach to at least two different people in this thread about what leader players should be and do, and to me it just sounds arrogant.  This is a game, not a job.

You are right.  I am not the only leader who has ever played this game.  And you touch on an aspect of this game that holds both advantages and disadvantages alike; that there is scale that ranges in how seriously someone takes this game, how many hours they want to dedicate to their characters and what amount of "work" they are willnig to take on to achieve the goals they want to see achieved.

Look at athletics.  You have a group of people that want to compete at a high level (Olympics, professional sports, etc...) and then you have plenty of people that want to just play a pick-up game with friends.  Both of these people can have fun playing the same game, but the more competitive people are going to include things like practice, training, camps and other elements that the "for fun" players would consider unattractive because it's too much work and they'd rather spend their time on something else.

Think about when you've ever played a pick-up game and a few of the guys play on a professional team.  You probably aren't having as much fun because these guys are "being too competitive and think they are hot shit" and they are probably not having as much fun because they think you guys are, "lazy and not putting in enough effort".  The fact is that both of you are trying to play a game at a different level.

And that's okay.  There is always going to be this difference between how much effort and attention people want to give to the game.  So what you may perceive as arrogance is, in my opinion, merely that difference between someone taking the game more seriously than you might be.  My opinion is just that.  Take it for what it's worth to you.  That may be a lot, or it may be nothing.  But simply taking time to call somebody a name isn't productive at either end of the game.

-LoD

[Nameless Face]

LoD, join the staff.  

Your well-written attempts to influence the players to your individual opinions can be interesting, but must ultimately be futile if change is your goal.  The playerbase, even if rallied, bearing pitchforks and marching lockstep behind your glorious banner, is just not the way to address your concerns.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy a good discussion.  I favor a reasonable debate better.  Not such a fan of a smothering diatribe, though.

You have a great, internally cohesive worldview of how you want things to be.  Join the staff, convince them, take your crusade to the proper level.  Otherwise you're just another guy in a hairshirt standing on his soapbox preaching about the good ol' days to me.

[zanthalandreams]

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

I agree.  The last thing we need with the playerbase we have is another way to keep PCs from interacting with each other.

[Vanth]

Playing a merchant house family member offers a lot of opportunities to do a variety of things.  But ultimately, those are just opportunities, and different players will be interested in taking some and passing others by.

Some players will be like LoD and almost single-handedly run all PC operations of the House, and that's great.  But I do not expect that degree of involvement or control from all players, simply because, as has been stated in this thread, some people would find that fun, and others would not.  Some people want to run a traveling caravan merchant.  Others prefer to be tavern sitters.  Others prefer to primarily interact within the clan compound with fellow clannies.  None of these are wrong, they are simply different choices.

I can only speak definitively for Kadius.  In Kadius, family members in both cities have wagons which they can (if they follow some simple safety precautions) take on trading missions.  There is trade and travel between the northern and southern divisions of Kadius.  Wagons bring materials from city to city, and PCs have the opportunity to travel with them.  Does this happen every RL week?  No.  However, that is mainly the choice of the PCs involved, and also because there is only so much PC demand for the materials they are shipping.  Would I like to see more caravan travel?  Sure.  But I leave that up to the players.  If they are interested, they have the opportunity.  If they are not, there is plenty else to keep them busy.

Finally, I am a bit puzzled about the perceived absence of Kadius in the game.  There's currently about 15-20 active Kadian players.  Even split between two cities, that means 7-10 people per city.  An agent, a merchant, 3 or 4 hunters, and the rest made up of crafters, aides, guards, and lesser merchants.  Many noble clans would be overjoyed to have 7-10 active players.  I think too much more than that number would tend to impact other clans negatively.

[Vanth]

And seperately, on the issue of accents:

I'm more than willing to consider giving merchant house family members both cities' accents, or some third accent.  But that's something that should be discussed amongst the staff for consensus, so I will bring it over to the staff board for discussion.

[Seeker]

I think more travel could be a good thing, but it is probably a mistake to pretend that a Northern Salarri is not a Northerner when in Allanak.  

The north/south conflict is one of the core components driving play in Armageddon, and I don't see how giving the three largest clans in the game a free buy-out on it is a wise thing.  The HOUSE Kadius might strive to be perceived as neutral, but a Tuluki tattoo-touting common merchant of Kadius who has Chosen Lord Fancypants Winrothol's personal account had -better- be ready for the grief if she is nosing around south.

More permitted travel... good.  
Giving Merchant House members a free pass on their cultural roots.... bad.

More travel, more grief together..... very good.


Seeker

[ale six]

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

The two cities are at war no more than they have been for most of the game, and less so than when there were actual military campaigns being pushed.  There has always been a precarious tension between the north and south, but the Merchant Houses are neither "northern" nor "southern".  And it should be apparent to either city-state, and its nobles and templars, that the House Agents are more diplomatic and neutral in their trade than a local vendor.

If one of the city-states was to make demands of a Merchant House to the degree that it required they cease functions in other parts of the world then they would soon find themselves haing to import everything from that other city-state or making it themselves.  If you had people travel, then at least some of these northern or southern folks could RP their distaste or dislike for the other culture, but I think you would find that over time they would come to be accepted and treated the same as their counterparts as long as they remained true to their trade.

My point was that the cities are still at war, which is all too easily forgotten because they aren't overtly attacking each other in ways everyone can see. As Seeker just said, the Merchant Houses are neutral, but individual northern/southern family members try to serve their own clients in either city. Again, somebody with lots of personal relationships with nobles and templars in one city would not and should not be well recieved by the other.

I don't want people becoming "accepted and treated the same as their counterparts" if they're from another city. I don't want this at all. It would be terrible for any foreigner in either city to be treated or expect to be treated normally just because he worked for an organization that is globally neutral. It would lead to an even further perceived cooling off in the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk. Bad bad bad.

And that's okay.  There is always going to be this difference between how much effort and attention people want to give to the game.  So what you may perceive as arrogance is, in my opinion, merely that difference between someone taking the game more seriously than you might be.  My opinion is just that.  Take it for what it's worth to you.  That may be a lot, or it may be nothing.  But simply taking time to call somebody a name isn't productive at either end of the game.

I'll stop feeding the tangent after this, but I don't think your analogy did much to counter my point. You just went from "everyone should be a leader like me" to "if you don't want to be a leader like me, you take the game less seriously than I do." That's a pretty bold statement, and while it may only be your opinion, it didn't do much to sway mine away from what I wrote previously at all.

[Anonymous]

Personally I think that the people that don't want to actually -be- a leader shouldn't take the roles. They are -wasting- the position IMO when there is probably someone who would like to drive plots just sitting by waiting for it to open up.

I don't think LoD's statment about how seriously one might be taking the game is too bold at all. I agree with it completely. If I didn't want the responsibility that comes with a leader position I wouldn't take it.
Like he said earlier, some people want the positives that come with such a position but none of the negatives. When those people are in such a position the game suffers.

[jhunter]

The above was me.  :oops:

[Morfeus]

I agree that leaders should give some amount effort and time and attention to the game. But I disagree that every leader should be the same type. I played a few leader-roles in past years - some of them were "common" leaders and ran big and serious plots, some of them were "born" leaders and did only support other people who started and ran plots considered world-shaking. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Especially if nearly every character IG can become some kind of leader, not only those who are given sponsored roles.  :wink:

[Cuusardo]

Personally I think that the people that don't want to actually -be- a leader shouldn't take the roles. They are -wasting- the position IMO when there is probably someone who would like to drive plots just sitting by waiting for it to open up.

I don't think LoD's statment about how seriously one might be taking the game is too bold at all. I agree with it completely. If I didn't want the responsibility that comes with a leader position I wouldn't take it.
Like he said earlier, some people want the positives that come with such a position but none of the negatives. When those people are in such a position the game suffers.

I could not agree more.  I have seen some PCs in leader positions that were so utterly irresponsible that it made me cringe.  They didn't stay true to the nature of the roles, they shirked off IC duties, cared more about their personal interests, never bothered to show up for RPTs that they organized, etc.  To add to what jhunter said, if you don't care how your roleplay affects others, you shouldn't be playing a leadership role.  When you take on a leadership role, especially a sponsored role, you must be willing to take it seriously to a degree, and be responsible.

[Maybe42or54]

I just want to say, that if they OOCly don't want to be a leader, they shouldn't be, but if there Pc doesn't want to be a leader, tough luck, as long as the player wants to be a leader.

[jhunter]

Agreed, mainly that's what I'm referring to. The people that OOCly don't want the responsibilities of the leader role but for some reason want all the benefits that come of it.
If you are intending on making a pc that is ICly a poor leader that's all fine. But, the people that are avoiding "doing their job" for purely OOC reasons are harming the game rather than adding to it and shouldn't be in such positions.

[Larrath]

I just want to say, that if they OOCly don't want to be a elader, they shouldn't be, but if there Pc doesn't want to be a leader, tough luck, as long as the player wants to be a leader.

It's possible to be a leader on an OOC level while not being a leader on an IC level.  With that said, if you're the sole leader of the clan, it's legitimate but not very polite to purposely play a very bad leader.
The things a leader does OOCly basically boil down to scheduling and planning RPTs and talking to the clan imms in order to keep plots, projects and other things in the clan active.
The things a leader does ICly are the actual 'leading' - giving people things to do, providing a direction to the group, rallying the clan members around a common cause, and so on and so forth.

Though it's also possible to do these things (rallying the clan members and giving people stuff to do) while playing a bad IC leader...but it's pretty tough, I imagine.

Any player in a leadership position needs to do the OOC part of the job (and it is a job in many cases), regardless of what their PC likes or doesn't like.  If you don't want to do the job required for leadership, you either need to find an arrangement where you can be the second or third-in-command, or simply not play a leader.
ICly, do what your PC would do.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I've played a couple leader roles...

One was cut short, and I didn't get much time in, but did accomplish a couple quick things and the character was made into an NPC, a public NPC even.

The other leadership role I had was long-lived.  Had a couple plots happen to the character, but in general was a 'lazy noble'.  I still made plot stuff happen.  I also gave people all sorts of hints as to fun things they could do to impress my character...most of that shit was ignored.  I was dissappointed.

For both of them, I put in at least 2 hours per day.  Every day.  Yeah, my characters were alternately outgoing and lazy, but both of them had time and presence for the rest of the people in the House so that I could lead them as I was supposed to.

It's not the kind of Leader (because you can successfully provide leadership no matter the personality), it's the time, to me at least.

[Yokunama]

Changing your accent when you go to the other city will work to a degree but there's some deception involved, like you're pretending to be a northerner or a southerner without actually being one.  

It seems that the neutral relationship the Merchant Houses have is being trampled over by the excessive treat the foreigner bad trend. I'd -love- to see more PC's interact with employees of the Great Merchant Houses with a more neutral feelings.