World Interaction - 2 of 4 (Merchant Houses)

[LoD]

World Interaction – Part 2 of 4 (Merchant Houses)

The last few years have given rise to some changes in Armageddon's code, administration and policy that I wanted to discuss with both the players and Staff. These changes have almost all been for the better, yet I see a few issues that are potentially dangerous as trends, and I am interested to hear the observations and views of others.

:arrow: The creation of north-south divisions and lack of travel has greatly diminished the role of the Merchant House.[/i]

Great Merchant Houses

The Great Merchant Houses, Salarr, Kurac and Kadius, are perhaps the single most important clans in Armageddon.  Because of their wide appeal, flexibility, varied job positions and ability to travel, they offer an almost unparalleled opportunity for new and veteran players to get the most exposure to the game world in the form of hunting, guarding, traveling, crafting, selling, spying and becoming involved in politics.  Unfortunately, changes over the last few years in administration and policy have somewhat lessened the great potential they carry.

The three Great Merchant Houses used to seem both more present and worldly as organizations.  There wasn't a forced distinction between a "north" and  "south" division.  What this created was a constant flow of traffic between Tuluk, Luir's Outpost and Allanak, as well as other areas of the Known World for purpose of trade, resource collection and scouting/exploration.  Merchants, advisors, spies, guards, hunters and craftsmen all had a good opportunity to move between cities often enough for them all to feel relatively useful in their profession as well as adventurous.

Current Issues

It seems nearly impossible to maintain a sizeable presence in each of the three active Houses.  Part of the problem is that they seem to have developed a northern[/i] and southern[/i] mentality where the northern merchants stay north and southern merchants stay south.  I really believe this is a critical mistake.  While it may seem more realistic to designate a northern and southern branch to satisfy the virtual needs each city-state would have, it lessens much of the potential interaction and activity the game would receive by increased travel.

One of the most common suggestions I see on the boards is to eliminate one of the city-states in order to force more people into one City to have the level of interaction, politics and such people desire.  This hasn't always been a problem, and the reason was that the Great Merchant Houses traveled often enough and interacted with enough people in the game world to create the illusion of a larger populace.  They were three floating communities that played dual roles as a functioning political and financial organization and a resource with whom other clans could interact and play.

Without this encouraged travel, especially by House Salarr and House Kadius, the cities begin to feel stagnant and static.  The same faces sitting in the same taverns waiting for the same nobles and templars to place orders and perhaps throw a bone of interest their direction for something that came up.  When you have 3 clans that can each easily support 5+ active players at a given time, you have an influx of 15 players rotating between both cities, not to mention any independents that have affiliations with either of these organizations and might travel with them.

Suggestions

:arrow: Remove the notion of a northern and southern branch.

Have the PC's of each Merchant House responsible for the PC's of the game world.  Don't limit where they can travel or whom they can sell to, but encourage interaction with as many customers and player populated zones in the game as possible.  This will encourage interaction on so many different levels:

> PC Merchants will be able to sell to nobles and templars of both cities.
> PC Templars and nobles from both cities will have a link through the Merchant Houses by which to trade information and become involved in plots.
> The neutrality of the Houses will be better reinforced by having northern and southern born employees frequenting the opposite city-state.

:arrow: Encourage frequent travel between the city-states via wagon.

There might be some travel presently, but it's a pale shadow of what it could be if there were proper incentives and direction toward making travel important to the business of the Houses.  Promote more ways for merchants to make coin by trade routes that capitalize on geography, access to resources and differences in cultures.  It almost seems like wagons are used as a last resort, when I feel they should be readily accessible to established merchants in any of the Houses as a playability issue and means for more interaction to occur in-game.

> Criminal elements in each city-state will have access to more PC's that won't recognize who they are to both sell information and ply their trades.
> Spies and plants will have better covers to enter different organizations and cities without seeming too obvious or eager.
> Each city will have rotating faces and bodies that will create an illusion of a fuller and more diverse civilization.
> PC's along the trade routes will have a larger chance to interact with larger groups of people for purposes of trades, raids or other exchanges.

There are lot of changes that could be made to how the PC's of a Merchant House operate that would open up so many doors and opportunities for every clan in the game.  Any shifts toward allowing them more freedom to travel and operate within either city-state would only increase all the things people have been wanting for years.

-LoD

[Tamarin]

I can't say I don't love this idea.  I hate the north-south split within the merchant houses.

[Angela Christine]

I like it.

It might be more realistic for a merchant to work just one city, heck, even just one neighbourhood in one city, but more mobility would help playability tremendously.  We might even see less stagnation, people wouldn't feel so "trapped" and lose intrest, abandon the clan, or suicide.  People that avoid certain clans because they fear being trapped into a dull, repetative, restrictive role in a clan might be willing to try if they knew that travel and new experiences were part of the package.


Angela Christine

[Jakahri]

Meh.

Might work, might not.

I don't mind things the way they are now.

[Manhattan]

I always imagined an escaped convict or notorious criminal who would stowaway on merchant wagons travelling between cities. This can increase playability for fugitives and allow more room for plot intrigue! If northern vs. southern hostilities were eliminated, we could have frequent travel for said wagons and see more thieves and assassins hopping on a passing cargo wagon and hitching a ride up to Tuluk where they can keep cool for the time being. I remember saying before, ArmageddonMUD is like an epic movie.

The stowaway idea is just swimming through my head, such a great mental picture!

This is probably already done, with caravans and whatnot.

[Armaddict]

I hate the idea of more north/south travel until the system by which they travel is improved.

I -hate- seeing people go from Tuluk to Allanak to Tuluk to Luirs to Allanak to Luirs to Allanak in the course of a RL week.  I think the key to representing the real distance from one point to the other is to make the travel harder and more of a deal.

More wagons is good, but only if you put in some sort of danger effect to wagons and make them more dependent on roads.

The north/south divisions I actually like.  Merchant houses are neutral, yes, but a northerner coming down to do business with nobility is just -asking- for conflicts to arise all around.  While acknowledged as neutral, I don't think I'd play a noble that's completely comfortable with a northerner coming down to Allanak to negotiate prices and deals with me.  And if their house is vast and prosperous, they can -afford-, with both money and staff, to keep a unit in one place and more readily available for use by people of that city.

I'd rather see 'shipments' moving north and south rather than the staff that the people are dealing with.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The north/south divisions I actually like.  Merchant houses are neutral, yes, but a northerner coming down to do business with nobility is just -asking- for conflicts to arise all around.  While acknowledged as neutral, I don't think I'd play a noble that's completely comfortable with a northerner coming down to Allanak to negotiate prices and deals with me.  And if their house is vast and prosperous, they can -afford-, with both money and staff, to keep a unit in one place and more readily available for use by people of that city.

The ideal employee of a noble house would either appear to be neither northern or southern, or appear to be of the ethnicity of whatever place he is currently residing.

Diplomacy is a merchant's most valuable tool.  Unfortunately it seems to be something that the players of noble houses are sorely lacking these days.  However, the coded and virtual tools for a person to blend in are now all present.  I say it's time for people to use them.

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

You can't spell merchant without international.  Because if you try, I'll hit you.

[Armaddict]

Diplomacy is a merchant's most valuable tool. Unfortunately it seems to be something that the players of noble houses are sorely lacking these days. However, the coded and virtual tools for a person to blend in are now all present. I say it's time for people to use them.

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

You can't spell merchant without international. Because if you try, I'll hit you.

Diplomacy.  Part of that is getting on the good side of your target customer.  That's made much much harder if you're obviously from a part of the world that your customer's people are at -war- with.  As you said, it can be covered up.  But then if it's found out at some point or leads to a conflict, you're in even worse condition than you started out as telling them you're a member of that 'hated people' in the first place.  It's something that -has- to be dealt with, this concept of northerners trying to sell to southerners.  The diplomacy is making them forget you're northern.

Every merchant house has -not- become two clans.  It's become a clan with two different bases.  As in, a base where southern employees can be hired and work, and a base where northern employees can be hired and work.   They communicate, work together, and act as one clan.  The only difference is that there are two positions rather than one, one in each base, so that instead of one person travelling all over the frickin' place, it's two people stationed where they're needed.  Travel still occurs, but it's not required nearly as much, and this keeps that 'one person' from constantly getting hampered to spy or report on the other city for coin, or be suspected of doing such for the other city.

As I said, merchant houses have the coin -and- staff available for this to happen, and it results in all around easier business when you don't have two hated people constantly going at the neutral people.  A big step for this is taken by having each base consist, at least mostly, of people of the same 'nationality', though they're technically neutral.

There is no lack of international in the way things are.  Just two cells for the same group.

[Larrath]

I don't see why people make a distinction between a Kadius family member who was born in Tuluk and a Kadius family member who was born in Allanak.
They're both Kadians.

I think it's just silly.  These Houses are huge and very famously neutral.  Speaking to a 'northern' Kuraci is hardly speaking with the Tuluki enemy.

Really, the Great Merchant Houses would (and probably do) put in a lot of effort to avoid being seen as 'northern Salarri' or 'southern Salarri', because it can have serious impact on business.  House employees of all levels get moved around all the time.

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent.  It's a Kadian.

[Armaddict]

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent. It's a Kadian.

It happens all the time.  I have a friend from Iran.  His family is from Iran.  He's cool, I hang out with him a lot.  That doesn't mean his family is immediately known by me, as a matter of fact, I know very little about them.  

I can just say, 'It's a kadian', but that in no way means that I have to trust that family member more.  All I know is that that particular family member comes from a different place.  I can't just assume they're exactly the same as the kadians I met down in Allanak, just because they come from a well-known family and bear it's name.

I think we need -less- blurs on how to treat people between north and south, not more.   Let the conflict between north and south go on.

[Obsidian Lord]

Again, good stuff, LoD.

[Halaster]

I -hate- seeing people go from Tuluk to Allanak to Tuluk to Luirs to Allanak to Luirs to Allanak in the course of a RL week.

According to help time, 1 RL week is about 1/2 an IC month.  That's about 115 IC days.  Is it that terrible of a thing to travel between the cities a few times in 115 days?

[spawnloser]

I wasn't with LoD on the tribals thing, but I'm SO with him on this.

[jhunter]

I agree with everything LoD posted regarding the merchant houses. There really shouldn't be as much separation as there is between the northern and southern branches of them. It does make it function more like there are six separate merchant houses instead of three.

I remember when there was alot more travel between the city-states by the merchant houses. It made for great fun and created alot of plots for people to get involved in that affected those in either the north or south. The merchant pcs should really get involved in actually going out and doing their trade/working to take out competitors instead of tavern sitting and waiting for people to come find them and make purchases/sales. That's what we have npc merchants for.

Folks that do nothing but mudsex and tavern sit add very little to the game, hardly ever drive plots, and are the main cause of the decay of conflict and plots that involve many people. This is IMO of course.

[Matrim]

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with having Northern and Southern divisions, it makes sense for the houses as businesses to operate that way, but I think interaction and trade between the two divisions should be promoted.  Since most of the houses operate as monopolies, I would think internal trade would be a very common thing, it's just now i'm assuming most of that trade is done "virtually", giving little reason for the two divisions to interact with each other.

It has been established in the docs that certain materials are native to different geographical locations--wood, hides, and bone from the north, and chitin, and obsidian from the south.  Encouraging the houses to make frequent trade runs (trading internally between the two divisions too) would encourage the kind of interaction I think you are looking for.  I think silk is primarily made up north too am I right?  And the southern nobility are addicted to it, though they turn a blind eye to where it comes from.  Perhaps this is why it is vital to have a northern/southern branch.  

I really don't see why anyone would see a different between a Kadian with a northern accent and a Kadian with a southern accent.  It's a Kadian.

True, a Kadian is a Kadian, but the two city states are at war, and it is largely because of special circumstances and monopolies that the Merchant Houses are permitted to operate in both cities.  A southern noble would probably feel more comfortable letting a southern born merchant into their estate, and spending thousands of 'sid with them.  First, origins play a big deal in trust and loyalty; and second, the noble may even feel more comfortable knowing the profit earned by the noble will be staying within Allanak.

That said, it is true that a "Kadian is a Kadian", which is why a northern Kadian in Allanak would probably be harassed far less than an indy northerner.  I think it is obvious though that the northern Kadian will be recieved with at least some prejudice--again--the two city-states are at war.  The Southern Templarite will probably assume that Northern officials will probe and bribe them for information.  The average joe 'Nakki commoner may just be prejudice for the sake of being prejudice.  You under estimate the mindlessness of prejudice

All in all, a good thread though, I think the game would benifit greatly from increased interaction between the cities, even though they are at war.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Every merchant house has -not- become two clans.  It's become a clan with two different bases.  As in, a base where southern employees can be hired and work, and a base where northern employees can be hired and work.   They communicate, work together, and act as one clan.  The only difference is that there are two positions rather than one, one in each base, so that instead of one person travelling all over the frickin' place, it's two people stationed where they're needed.  Travel still occurs, but it's not required nearly as much, and this keeps that 'one person' from constantly getting hampered to spy or report on the other city for coin, or be suspected of doing such for the other city.

I don't know which merchant house you played in, but it wasn't the one that I played in.

Part of this is an OOC concern as well.  Right now a newly created merchant character feels that he needs to hire a huge squad of hunters and guards to hunt and guard and do nothing and make him feel all warm and fuzzy.

A merchant house would be far more dynamic, action-oriented, and engaging from the perspective of the players within it if that same merchant only had to transfer a couple seasoned warriors or rangers from the north to get things started or maybe an entire squad for just a couple weeks in order to make a quota passed down by an NPC superior.

If half the characters do twice the work, then they also have twice the fun.  And a merchant house doesn't require 15-20 characters just to operate successfully in both city states.  I mention this not because I think having less positions will "free up" players to do other things but because I believe that the less characters a clan requires to function, the more fun that clan is.

[path]

I cast my vote with LoD. You're right on track man, and it's good to see someone giving a new angle of thought to some of our old problems.

That said, I also agree with most of the things Slade said, and not just because I think he's fine.

Finially, AC seems to be on point with why people avoid clans. I avoid clans for exactly the reasons she mentioned.

Is it too late to add a vote to this? I'd like to see the majority opinion.

[marko]

I think it's just silly.  These Houses are huge and very famously neutral.  Speaking to a 'northern' Kuraci is hardly speaking with the Tuluki enemy.

Just want to note something about this:

1458
A new government in Tuluk is formed, still headed by the Sun King Muk Utep, giving a greater authority to the common people, noble houses, and merchant houses of Gol Krathu. This council becomes known as the Northlands Alliance.

I would suggest the Great Merchant Houses are infamous for their bias and side taking but have managed, somehow or other, to become "necessary" for the City States to tolerate.  

The most "neutral" of all the Houses would be Salarr.

The other two of the three are very much known for clearly siding with one City State or the Other over the course of History.  I believe there was some serious wheelings and dealings and thus there haven't been significant lasting IC consequences for a lot of these activities (ie, ousting a merchant house entirely from a City and banning them from ever coming back).  There may also have been playability issues at hand as well (duplicating merchant houses, doubling administrative overhead, etc etc).

But, the Merchant Houses are very infamous for taking sides.  They have in the past.  Most likely they will again in the future.

[amoeba]

I'm going to play devils advocate here, because, well thats just me.

Mostly I like the thoughts put forth, but I think a lot more fleshing out needs to be done.  

I think back to when I had a character just starting in a certian spice oriented clan.  I was all excited, finally got to go on a wagon trip to Allanak after Rl weeks of sparring and guarding.  Now as a player who had never seen 'nak, this was doubly exciting.  

So, the fateful trip.  Now for those that have taken wagon trips, you know what a joyride of excitement they really are.  Get to 'nak and it was decied that my character was not presentable where they were headed  so the decison was made for my guy to "guard" the wagon.  It took them two RL hours to do what they had come for and return.   We then returned in the wagon.    Total time all in all, about three hours RL.  Sights seen, a wagon.  

The point here is that travel is good, but wagon travel doesn't fill me with heaps of joy.  They tend to be dull and are near impossible to raid without IMM intervention.  I think wagons shold be used for special purposes, I would think kankback excursions would be much more common (and a hell of a lot more interesting).   I also feel there should be more than just going to someplace, there should be reasons for doing things that involve more than just a few players.

[X-D]

I don't know if there is really that split being spoken of.
Travel between the two sity states by the merchant houses might simply be low because of low pc numbers, or any number of other IC reasons.
I personaly would take a more wait and see attitude on this, it might pick up, or reasons might be found for it to be low.

[Matrim]

I don't know if there is really that split being spoken of.
Travel between the two sity states by the merchant houses might simply be low because of low pc numbers, or any number of other IC reasons.
I personaly would take a more wait and see attitude on this, it might pick up, or reasons might be found for it to be low.

I have in my time played along side many Merchant Houses, and actually did see a fair bit of travel with those roles, and it is true that part of the problem may be a current lack of PCs in the roles that are needed for what we are talking about.  Whether there is an actual problem or not, I think encouraging interaction and further developing the actual trade that goes on between Allanak and Tuluk could only be a good thing.

I would also personally like to see Luir's Outpost used as more of an actual hub, rather than just a quick rest stop.  Example: Tuluki Tal brings down a shipment of lumber to the Outpost and trades it to Allanaki Al for a sack of shells.  Both traders return home with goods that should fetch them a fair price, and didn't even have to risk getting strip searched by those pesky templars.  Luir's is already suppose to be a center for trade, but I don't think a lot of trade actually goes on down there, does it?  (I don't actually know this) While the big Merchant Houses may have a few 'get out of jail free' cards in opposing cities, I think it would be cool to see more trade (both from Merchant Houses and Indy traders) happen within the walls of Luir's.  While Allanak and Tuluk may be politically at war, they still rely on each other quite heavily for trade and economy.  Luir's could be a good place for trade oriented commoners to interact with one another.

When I create a character that either starts in the North or the South, I eventually start to crave a little multiculturalism  While some of you people loathe either Tuluk or Allanak, I personally love them both.  I think it would be neat for a 'Nakki to have the opportunity to travel to Luir's to watch a famous northern bard perform, or a Tuluki have the opportunity to travel to Luir's to boo and hiss one of Allanak's greatest gladiators fight in the arena.  (It's not too uncommon in the real world to see an American entertainer be loved and perform in another country that may not have very good political standings with the US).  I've always liked the idea of Northern and Southern commoners being able to interact with each other with a kind of uneasy truce.  Think of the plots that could spawn in such an environment, where the only faction to "keep the peace" are the Kuracis.  The idea actually came to me after watching Dune--I thought it would be cool to have the Noble Houses of both Allanak and Tuluk have a chance to interact with each other outside of either city-state in a sort of uneasy truce (for whatever reason), just to see what kind of crazy stuff would happen.  I guess the Luir's thing could be kind of similar.

[jhunter]

Good point about Luir's Matrim. It -should- be a meeting place for trade between the north and south. Having people from both cities head there to meet for trade would cause more activity from both ends and for those in Luir's.

[Nameless Face]

I also agree.

The only problem with Luirs... is all those damn Kuraci.

[Jherlen]

I think that unless some sort of system of rotation was set up, PCs in merchant clans would simply be swamped if they were expected to move and interact in both cities.

If there is one PC Agent in, say, Salarr, and instead of only his home city he's now expected to deal with people in both cities, the guy would never be able to do anything else between running back and forth between all the nobles demanding to see him. "What, Joe Salarr? You're in TULUK? I'm Lord Fancypants Borsail and I want my new sword NOW NOW NOW." It would be too much for one or two PCs to handle. That's why the "branch" system is in place, I think.

And even if you don't make the distinction between "northern" and "southern" merchant family members, people will still make the distinction between their employees. I've seen and had PCs in merchant houses who were visiting their opposite city-state and were tortured and harassed by nobility and templars. That the poor hunter had a Salarr cloak doesn't matter to these people, he's a northerner in my precious Allanak! While it got annoying, it also made sense - low ranking PCs aren't usually worth their House fussing over them to rich people. Still, it discourages having those PCs travel away from whatever city they were hired in.

Personally, in my experience the merchant houses do plenty of traveling, even if they may keep it a bit low key. I don't see a need to cut their sizes down and I think it would be hell on the leader PCs if we did.

[LoD]

If there is one PC Agent in, say, Salarr, and instead of only his home city he's now expected to deal with people in both cities, the guy would never be able to do anything else between running back and forth between all the nobles demanding to see him. It would be too much for one or two PCs to handle.

If a PC Agent is ever in that situation, where he has too many things for himself to handle, then things are going great.  Many of your perceptions have been created by this north-south division of employee interaction.  It wasn't always this way, and IMHO - it was better before.  You had more opportunities for conflicts of interest, espionage, trade, exchages, diplomacy, revenge...

There is a feeling in many clans that steps are being taken to disallow as many "unknowns" as possible with regards to their success.  Their estates or homelands become less and less accessible.  Their employees become more and more screened.  PC's used to be able to simply walk down a road to Blackwing's camp - now there is a gigantic fortress in the way.  The gypsies used to travel solely in a wagon, now they have their own game preserve.

And merchants used to travel between cities, wheeling and dealing and making crafty deals with wits and careful diplomacy.  Now they sit in ethnocentric heaven requiring neither the guile nor wits to keep them in the good graces of their customers save to remember to praise the God-King of choice and bow.  How disappointing!

When I played Khann, as the only PC Salarri merchant, I would be bombarded with contacts as soon as I entered the game, but it was some of the very best political RP and plot generating interactions that I ever had within the game.  Having so many people working with you simply opens up a floodgate of opportunity.  To cringe from it and feel as if that player would be swamped almost feels cowardly and working against what this whole MUD is about - generating good stories based off of player driven events and interaction.

And even if you don't make the distinction between "northern" and "southern" merchant family members, people will still make the distinction between their employees. I've seen and had PCs in merchant houses who were visiting their opposite city-state and were tortured and harassed by nobility and templars. That the poor hunter had a Salarr cloak doesn't matter to these people, he's a northerner in my precious Allanak!

But do you know why this has happened?  It's because they implemented this "division" practice and so now the north and south feel so completely devoid of different cultures and peoples that a northern speaking man in the southlands is like a glowing white beacon.  If the system was released and each House travelled a couple times each RL week to trade with the opposite cities, these accents would begin to fade into the background and it would discourage the "It's a northerner!"[/i] reaction from people because it would be far more commonplace.

Personally, in my experience the merchant houses do plenty of traveling, even if they may keep it a bit low key. I don't see a need to cut their sizes down and I think it would be hell on the leader PCs if we did.

You don't need to cut any sizes down, just travel more often.  Implement incentives for merchants to travel and make money.  I don't know what your definition of "hell" is, but if I was a merchant in a Great House and I had access to a wagon, I'd definitely take my people on trips a couple times a week to make things exciting.  That's part of my job as a leader.  Perhaps they don't really know what to do.  It's possible.  Most of them have had to do very little besides look frumpy in their silks, sit in a tavern and wait for people to approach them for some big sales.

I loved being the merchant that was doing the low level trading between city-states, making money, paying my guards, running into plenty of interaction between tribes, cities, gangs, everything.  The RP that resulted from travelling often was probably more than any other character I've ever had, and it was almost a direct result of having that travel in the game.  Of bringing new and strange faces from the north and bringing them south for a few days.  

It makes the world feel bigger.  It makes the duty more rewarding.  And it provides more opportunities for people to play out their role with the clan, guarding the caravan, guarding the merchant, gathering the information, selling off the goods, drinking at the local tavern while you meet with your clients and contacts before heading back in a couple of days.

There's a wealth of opportunity that is not even being peeked at because of the division of the House dealings.  It may be realistic and it may make logical sense for them to assign folks to "deal with their own".  But it also completely short-changes every single one of us out of some great, GREAT chances for RP.

No chance to display your disappointment that you have to purchase something from a foreign merchant?  No chance to pay someone to rough him up when he visits the city, or steal something important from him only to make him grovel to take it back.  No chance to offend them enough that THEY may actually try to hire someone to kill YOU?  

How safe and how boring.

-LoD