World Interaction - 2 of 4 (Merchant Houses)

[Aldiel]

I like it how it is.  It's realistic.

*edit*
And more unknown people doesn't make better RP.   Some of the best RP I have is with characters my character has known for years and years.

[Supreme Allah]

One thing that many PC merchants never seem to realize is that on Zalanthas you can say no to a common customer.  Special orders should only be for special customers, like nobles, templars, or merchant family members.  If  hunter Amos wants a blackened, jahkal-carved wooden sword of prettiness, tell him to fuck off and stop wasting your valuable time with his unimportant self.  He can go search the shop or go find your non-family junior sub-merchant if you have one.  I believe a simple attitude-change like that would make house merchants a lot less stressful to play.

Sorry to derail a bit, but I think that would seriously diminish a Merchant House's reputation among the common populace, Mr. Moe. And even if it proves untrue in-game, you must remember that the vast, vast majority of the income that house gets is likely from the (VNPC) common hunters/warriors/people-who-don't-like-to-be-defenseless, not the sparse numbers of nobility or templarate.

Merchant House family members are influential, yes, but to my knowledge, they're certainly not supposed to be inaccessible like templars or southern nobility are. I've always thought a particularly wise merchant would likely forsake the use of the "essential" NPC guards most seem to carry about simply to make themselves look more accessible, nonthreatening and friendly in appearance to the common folk and the uncommon folk alike.

To go back on track, I think LoD's really onto something. When I played a leader with Salarr some time ago, I myself did make a point to travel, and travel often, between the cities - sometimes in secret or without other employees. Though the character was neither northern or southern, he had a "northern" accent, as this was before other options were available. He did run into some problems when trying to deal with certain southerners, and often, even without looking at him and despite his pretty distinctive Salarri garb, people would just assume that because of his accent, he was a filthy stinking northerner, even when (I felt) he didn't really look it and was clad head-to-toe in the colors and insignia of Salarr. Merchant Houses need to be viewed as far more neutral than they are, because that is the reputation that they strive to keep. And for the most part, they really should have that reputation.

I also disagree with what X-D's said about the current state of the Kurac. My experiences with them have been great. I think perhaps you may be exaggerating a certain few instances.

[Supreme Allah]

I like it how it is.  It's realistic.

*edit*
And more unknown people doesn't make better RP.   Some of the best RP I have is with characters my character has known for years and years.

It makes the world more diverse, Aldiel, and offers a greater variety of interaction when all the PCs you see aren't the same ones you see every time you walk into the Sanctuary or the Barrel or down Caravan Road.

This isn't to say that your character must meet new people and the roleplay will be superior at all times. It means that there's more possibilities and there's more realism when you simply don't know every name and face you come across.

[Rindan]

This is a little off topic, but I think it would be great if Luir's was more accomidating to independent merchants.  One thing that could go a LONG ways to making Luir's more worthwhile would be if Kurac was able to offer warehouse space.  If my Northerner comes up with two kanks worth of logs, he either needs to sell it on the spot or else he is screwed.  A simple way around this would be if Luir's offered warehouse space.  For a few 'sid a month, you could dump stuff off in a well guarded room in a warehouse.  Let people pay many months in advance so that they can drop off goods and leave.  This way, a southerner might stock up a few tons of wood over the course of a few months, spend some time in Luirs trying to find a buyer, then leave if no one showed.  Eventually he would find a buyer, then sell off the contents to a southerner.  The southerner could transfer the wood to his warehouse holding spot and move it back to Allanak slowly as needed.

[Intrepid]

Speaking as someone in the middle of a corporate restructuring in rl, I can
tell you that having one mobile group handling everything and backing
each other up when orders get out of control is far, far more efficient than
having three to four small groups that have lulls in activity but are stuck in
one place and cannot assist their coworkers when a surge in activity takes
place in another branch.

That said, there's a lot to be said for "plausible deniability" in the intrigue
setting.  Merchant houses can be universally neutral with their pawns or
members acting in personal interests against one settlement or another.
The result is that you have a group that is slightly less trusted than the
typical commoner but supports all sides to survive and prosper, but not
necessarily conquer each other.  As such, merchants become the lifeblood
of no single settlement, but civilization as a whole.

If one member gets caught committing treasonous acts, the merchant
house condemns the act publically but scolds the member privately for
getting caught--not for committing the act.  Regardless of this suspicious
situation, merchants are people who overlap all social groups and societal
levels, so they end up being the ultimate flies on the wall--flies who,
despite being less trusted, end up soaking in a lot of information just from
being in the room and being able to sell it to the other side.  None of the
patriots in the benefitting city/village will ever turn in such a valuable
informant unless he/she crossed them severely, so you only need worry
about competing spies, either from that same house or from another
house who would be operating the exact same way as you.  The Way
makes acquiring the proof difficult, but not impossible; ie, someone will
slip up from time to time.

So really, I'd have to say that the merchants could become far more
dangerous and Machiavellian in the political scheme by having their
groups involve themselves in civilization across the board, rather than
compartmentalizing the branches by location.

[Kuraci Kank]

Kurac: They scare me. I don't want to go in Luir's. I don't want to go near Luir's. I don't even want to particularly go near the Tooth, out of fear of being dragged into the back room by a bunch of Kuraci PCs and beaten to death.

I am both amused and annoyed by this prevalent sentiment.

The Outpost is Kurac run and Kurac owned, and those sketchy bastards do have a sense of justice and an aim for smooth trade and profitable business, so just play by their rules and you'll come out just fine.  Break those rules, and that's your own damn fault.


The reputations (deserved or not) of some PCs notwithstanding, Kurac is perhaps one of the only clans most true to the mantra "profit above all".  Profit is survival, and so they do everything they can to promote profit.  Some PCs in the past may have appeared to be hard or high-handed, but rest assured that there was definite Kuraci justice behind it - and if they did it in such a way that damaged trade, I imagine their superiors taught them the (painful) lesson of their mistake.  Especially if it was a lower ranking PC that doesn't "get it" yet.

Repeat it with me:  Kurac is all about business.

If you come to the outpost, trade, go home, Kurac won't mind.  If you come to the outpost to hang out, shoot the breeze, or in general not cause trouble, Kuraci isn't going to give two shits about you.  If you come to trade or otherwise bring some form of profit, Kurac will love you.  So long as you obey their very simple and straightforward laws.

There are PCs that have insulted a Kuraci Sergeant, apologized after, bought a couple drinks, and never got bothered again.  Who cares?  Smooth business, let's keep it rolling.

There are PCs that threatened a Sergeant's life, tried buy their safety by threatening the authority of another city state while in the Outpost, and seemed suprised that they got ganked without mercy.  Hello?

There are PCs who had kanks resting instead of paying the 20 sid to stable it, right in front of the tavern, and got waved on down the road without any trouble.  Gee, I wonder why - maybe because they had gotten in good somehow with a Kuraci.

There are PCs who had kanks resting instead of paying the 20 sid to stable it, copped an attitude with the Kuraci they'd come to meet and with the annoyed Kuraci that had stabled it and was holding the ticket, and so instead of getting their kank back free, they lost it entirely.

As a personal side note, having kanks resting all over the roads when there is a stable nearby is just ridiculous - I've seen PCs resting their kanks out in the dunes just beside the Outpost walls so that they don't have to pay the 20 sid just to stable it.  That strikes me as far more ridiculous than a Kurac asking you to move it along to the stables so that you don't clog up traffic.  I think a soldier in any of the city-states would ask you to stable your kank as well, if they saw you parked outside the Sanctuary or the Bard's Barrel.

Get a little rowdy in the bar while drunk, and no one is going to mind.  Get a little rowdy in the bar and start picking a fight with a Kuraci merchant, and don't be suprised when you get booted on your ass out the door and told to sober up before you come back.  Then you avoid the Outpost for the rest of your character's life because you think Kurac's out to get you?  That's absolutely ridiculous and of no one's fault but your own paranoia.  No one gives a shit about you - sorry to disappoint.

Struggle and refuse to come peacefully (or worse, abuse the fact that we can't codedly subdue you without risking NPC death, which we DO try our HARDEST to avoid), and all you do is annoy the fuck out of the soldiers that are just doing their jobs.  Annoyed soldiers are not generally something you want on your character's ass.  Again, it's all about common sense and applying it to a situation.  

Simply put: be useful to Kurac and they will love you.  Irritate Kurac and they'll boot you out of the way and not think about it again. Betray or act against Kurac in a manner large enough for them to care, and don't be suprised when you get ganked.

[Anonymous]

One thing that many PC merchants never seem to realize is that on Zalanthas you can say no to a common customer.  Special orders should only be for special customers, like nobles, templars, or merchant family members.  If  hunter Amos wants a blackened, jahkal-carved wooden sword of prettiness, tell him to fuck off and stop wasting your valuable time with his unimportant self.  He can go search the shop or go find your non-family junior sub-merchant if you have one.  I believe a simple attitude-change like that would make house merchants a lot less stressful to play.

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

[Agent_137]

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

If a player only has X much time,  and noble type orders are taking up X-1 hours, joe commoner shouldn't get priority. Now, obviously, if the merchant is sitting on his ass and skimming some spice, then feck yea, he should tend to the commoner.

[Anonymous]

As a personal side note, having kanks resting all over the roads when there is a stable nearby is just ridiculous - I've seen PCs resting their kanks out in the dunes just beside the Outpost walls so that they don't have to pay the 20 sid just to stable it.  That strikes me as far more ridiculous than a Kurac asking you to move it along to the stables so that you don't clog up traffic.  I think a soldier in any of the city-states would ask you to stable your kank as well, if they saw you parked outside the Sanctuary or the Bard's Barrel.

Consider the Wild West and horses. People could go tie their horse up outside the tavern or general store without having to pay a heavy fee, or any fee for that matter.

I think the stable fee should be changed. Pay 50 coins and you receive a token that lets you put your kank in that stable for no further charge any time for a month. That represents a real stable, where they feed and water the animal and it emerges rested. In Luir's, where they presumably would like to encourage business from the constant flow of travellers, also offer a 'kank hitch', a pen where your beast will be safe until you return but that's about it. If you don't return within two days, too bad, it's gone.

[marko]

I was really hoping this wouldn't descend into a Kurac derailment so I'm gonna try and guide it to where it is back in lines with the overall discussion.  I've been trying not to respond about Luir's but I think it's part of the discussion about merchant houses and travel between the culture centers.

This what I've seen and heard, at a general level, of Kurac and Luir's.  

Luir's continues to be perceived as a dangerous place to go.  It is not a trading outpost it is a Kurac stronghold.  The difference is significant and PCs understand it.  Many PCs don't want to go into Luir's to avoid the stabling charge - they don't want to go in because Kurac has given itself a reputation as being unreasonable, harsh, heavy-handed, over-the-top, unpredicatable, and downright dangerous to even attempt to do business with or around.

Kurac has developed this reputation.  This reputation has gotten to the point that it is now an OOC stigma as well as an IC perception.  I've heard characters, in the game, talk about how the justice of the Highlord is better than that of Kurac.  

As to whether this reputation is currently deserved I will not pass judgement or offer an opinion either way - I'm just saying that this is how Kurac and Luir's is perceived by many (no, not by all).

I believe this is important to the discussion since Luir's used to be a stop-over for many travelers and now people are avoiding it.  Therefore, we're losing out on a great place to sit back and swap tales in a safe haven.  I think the perception of Kurac is part of why this is happening combined (or heightened) by the new structure of the outpost.

For many Luir's isn't considered to be a safe place to stop over.  For others, it is a hassle to get into with the new layout.  Take the two situations and you see people avoiding Luir's.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but this is just stupid. If Amos has coin coming out of his ass, reasonably why would any merchant turn him away?

The problem arises out of OOC considerations (takes staff time and effort to do), but this is already reflected in the absurdly high prices custom items go for. There's no need to add in yet another artificial constraint like this.

If a player only has X much time,  and noble type orders are taking up X-1 hours, joe commoner shouldn't get priority. Now, obviously, if the merchant is sitting on his ass and skimming some spice, then feck yea, he should tend to the commoner.

Then the House should hire another merchant to deal with all the business it is missing. Why pass up the chance for the additional profit?

If you're going to claim this is limited by the number of PCs, then I'll come back with the claim that the PC merchants aren't really X-1 hours busy (unless they hardly log in at all).

[X-D]

The Outpost is Kurac run and Kurac owned, and those sketchy bastards do have a sense of justice and an aim for smooth trade and profitable business, so just play by their rules and you'll come out just fine. Break those rules, and that's your own damn fault.

Maybe they do, I'll not argue that at all, but they do a poor job of putting you at ease while your there, and if you don't "feel" safe then your not going to do business there or spend any time there, plain and simple.

There are PCs that have insulted a Kuraci Sergeant, apologized after, bought a couple drinks, and never got bothered again. Who cares? Smooth business, let's keep it rolling.

Course, often, I'd even dare to say its the kurac/sarge that starts the insults, petty most the time, who I suppose does not expect to get insulted in return, who gets all bent out of shape on the matter.
Again, a poor showing and one that simply does not invite people to travel out of their nice safe cities where they can do business anyway.

Now, I have to say, I've always enjoyed the play of any kurac family member any of my chars have ever met.

I simply cannot say the same for just about anybody else in the clan.

Funny thing is, with every char I make I give them a chance, I've even had some citizens of Luirs, but the results always come out the same, the char ends up either avoiding them or hating them to the point of hunting them.

And no matter what you say is supposed to be, it still remains that in the last 3 weeks I've been playing, My char has met no less then eight other pc's that do what they can to avoid Luirs and Kuracis in general. Now, with most, I'm not sure if they have done something to have reason, its possible, but from what I've seen in the past, I'd bet instead it is Kurac who has.

(edit to add disclaimer)
Was thinking on it, and I wish to change one thing, during the time when Kurac was holding the first Tregil wrestling and pit fights I actually enjoyed the clan and most the pc's in it, and the two chars of that time would often spend time in the tooth and in luirs.

[Adhira]

Please do not use this forum to slam other clans and their RP and IC actions. If this continues, this thread will be locked.

[ale six]

I don't like this idea. Travel is nice and good, but I think it's for the risk-takers and independents who don't mind the stigma of being a foreigner in a big foreign city.

Personally, if I was playing a noble or templar, I would want to keep family merchants local to my area. I wouldn't really like it if I had to outfit my guards from the very same Salarri PC who might go to the other city the next week and sell things to my enemies. As a southern noble or templar I would be downright offended if anybody wearing northern tattoos and speaking in a northern accent tried to sell me anything, and likewise I would think northern nobles and templars would be offended if untattooed barbarian southrons came offering them goods.

I can't help but laugh when I think of some hapless merchant saying... "Oh sorry, Lady Templar Tektoy, I'm up north selling stuff to Faithful Lady Lirathabitch right now. But uh... she's not picking my brain for information about you! Honest!"

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

On to OOC concerns. I'll try and phrase this as nicely as possible, but LoD, you aren't the only leader who has ever played in this game. You do have a lot of experience, I'm sure, but the attitude I've seen in your responses is that since you have so much leadership under your belt, you must be right and everyone should be a leader like you. There's nothing wrong with players who want to be able to lead a clan while still being able to relax and have fun with their role. You've attempted to preach to at least two different people in this thread about what leader players should be and do, and to me it just sounds arrogant. I've played leaders, both mid-level and upper level, and none of them have had near the workload of something like a merchant who is expected to sell to the entire playerbase of both cities. If someone wanted me to take a role like that I would start asking for a paycheck. This is a game, not a job.

[X-D]

Adhira

Not slamming, if it seems that way to you, well, I don't know what to say.

What I am doing is stating problems as I see them, and suggestions to fix them, if you  read posts leading up to later ones, you would see that. Now, others see other problems and/or don't see what I think of as a problem but instead an asset, We, players, as well as staff are entitled to our opinions I thought.

Also, it is a general discussion board. And since nobody on this thread has been flaming or letting out IC-information, again, I don't see the problem.

Also, Yes, you are staff, but, if slamming clans (still have not done so in my opinion) Is in fact against the rules of this board, please have it posted as such.

Actually, Myself, I think this has been, so far, a pretty tame thread with reasonably thought out posts and simply don't see how it can hurt at all, might even help, I've seen a few suggestions that I may attempt to put into affect as far as My PC's are concerned.

And maybe Kurac will work on thier rep (or maybe they have been and like it currently)

And maybe Kadius will become more organized.

And maybe Salarr will also and work harder to establish a presence in the world.

Or maybe these are not problems at all and we are being silly...shrug.

(edit)
I want to clarify one thing I did say.
As to the enjoyment of the play of others.
This was not meant in a manner of saying it was poor RP, far be it, I don't think I've seen what I might consider poor RP of any PC in Kurac. It was only meant that it is a manner that I do not -enjoy-, and last I saw, it was a game played for enjoyment. I hope that makes sense.

[Adhira]

Suggestions are fine. Specific mention of pcs, incidents or otherwise, or statements that include the words 'petty' seem to me to be bordering on flaming.

Flaming is against the rules.

Obviously this board is for discussion, and suggestions, on ways to make the game better. If you have any further problems with my previous statement, please email me. I'd like this thread to get back on topic.

[LoD Snarf]

I don't like this idea. Travel is nice and good, but I think it's for the risk-takers and independents who don't mind the stigma of being a foreigner in a big foreign city.

The Great Merchant Houses have had a presence in both city-states for RL decades, and for either city-state's citizens to believe that the northern branch of House Salarr or Kadius is 'loyal' or 'sympathetic' to their cause is both naive and dangerous.  They are businesses with a monopoly in their respective fields that have operated between wars, fights and scuffles for hundreds of years.  I believe that it would be understood these organizations sell to opposition and allies alike.

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

The two cities are at war no more than they have been for most of the game, and less so than when there were actual military campaigns being pushed.  There has always been a precarious tension between the north and south, but the Merchant Houses are neither "northern" nor "southern".  And it should be apparent to either city-state, and its nobles and templars, that the House Agents are more diplomatic and neutral in their trade than a local vendor.

If one of the city-states was to make demands of a Merchant House to the degree that it required they cease functions in other parts of the world then they would soon find themselves haing to import everything from that other city-state or making it themselves.  If you had people travel, then at least some of these northern or southern folks could RP their distaste or dislike for the other culture, but I think you would find that over time they would come to be accepted and treated the same as their counterparts as long as they remained true to their trade.

I'll try and phrase this as nicely as possible, but LoD, you aren't the only leader who has ever played in this game.  There's nothing wrong with players who want to be able to lead a clan while still being able to relax and have fun with their role. You've attempted to preach to at least two different people in this thread about what leader players should be and do, and to me it just sounds arrogant.  This is a game, not a job.

You are right.  I am not the only leader who has ever played this game.  And you touch on an aspect of this game that holds both advantages and disadvantages alike; that there is scale that ranges in how seriously someone takes this game, how many hours they want to dedicate to their characters and what amount of "work" they are willnig to take on to achieve the goals they want to see achieved.

Look at athletics.  You have a group of people that want to compete at a high level (Olympics, professional sports, etc...) and then you have plenty of people that want to just play a pick-up game with friends.  Both of these people can have fun playing the same game, but the more competitive people are going to include things like practice, training, camps and other elements that the "for fun" players would consider unattractive because it's too much work and they'd rather spend their time on something else.

Think about when you've ever played a pick-up game and a few of the guys play on a professional team.  You probably aren't having as much fun because these guys are "being too competitive and think they are hot shit" and they are probably not having as much fun because they think you guys are, "lazy and not putting in enough effort".  The fact is that both of you are trying to play a game at a different level.

And that's okay.  There is always going to be this difference between how much effort and attention people want to give to the game.  So what you may perceive as arrogance is, in my opinion, merely that difference between someone taking the game more seriously than you might be.  My opinion is just that.  Take it for what it's worth to you.  That may be a lot, or it may be nothing.  But simply taking time to call somebody a name isn't productive at either end of the game.

-LoD

[Nameless Face]

LoD, join the staff.  

Your well-written attempts to influence the players to your individual opinions can be interesting, but must ultimately be futile if change is your goal.  The playerbase, even if rallied, bearing pitchforks and marching lockstep behind your glorious banner, is just not the way to address your concerns.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy a good discussion.  I favor a reasonable debate better.  Not such a fan of a smothering diatribe, though.

You have a great, internally cohesive worldview of how you want things to be.  Join the staff, convince them, take your crusade to the proper level.  Otherwise you're just another guy in a hairshirt standing on his soapbox preaching about the good ol' days to me.

[zanthalandreams]

Personally, I HATE that ever since Tuluk re-emerged, every merchant house in existence has effectively become two clans.

I agree.  The last thing we need with the playerbase we have is another way to keep PCs from interacting with each other.

[Vanth]

Playing a merchant house family member offers a lot of opportunities to do a variety of things.  But ultimately, those are just opportunities, and different players will be interested in taking some and passing others by.

Some players will be like LoD and almost single-handedly run all PC operations of the House, and that's great.  But I do not expect that degree of involvement or control from all players, simply because, as has been stated in this thread, some people would find that fun, and others would not.  Some people want to run a traveling caravan merchant.  Others prefer to be tavern sitters.  Others prefer to primarily interact within the clan compound with fellow clannies.  None of these are wrong, they are simply different choices.

I can only speak definitively for Kadius.  In Kadius, family members in both cities have wagons which they can (if they follow some simple safety precautions) take on trading missions.  There is trade and travel between the northern and southern divisions of Kadius.  Wagons bring materials from city to city, and PCs have the opportunity to travel with them.  Does this happen every RL week?  No.  However, that is mainly the choice of the PCs involved, and also because there is only so much PC demand for the materials they are shipping.  Would I like to see more caravan travel?  Sure.  But I leave that up to the players.  If they are interested, they have the opportunity.  If they are not, there is plenty else to keep them busy.

Finally, I am a bit puzzled about the perceived absence of Kadius in the game.  There's currently about 15-20 active Kadian players.  Even split between two cities, that means 7-10 people per city.  An agent, a merchant, 3 or 4 hunters, and the rest made up of crafters, aides, guards, and lesser merchants.  Many noble clans would be overjoyed to have 7-10 active players.  I think too much more than that number would tend to impact other clans negatively.

[Vanth]

And seperately, on the issue of accents:

I'm more than willing to consider giving merchant house family members both cities' accents, or some third accent.  But that's something that should be discussed amongst the staff for consensus, so I will bring it over to the staff board for discussion.

[Seeker]

I think more travel could be a good thing, but it is probably a mistake to pretend that a Northern Salarri is not a Northerner when in Allanak.  

The north/south conflict is one of the core components driving play in Armageddon, and I don't see how giving the three largest clans in the game a free buy-out on it is a wise thing.  The HOUSE Kadius might strive to be perceived as neutral, but a Tuluki tattoo-touting common merchant of Kadius who has Chosen Lord Fancypants Winrothol's personal account had -better- be ready for the grief if she is nosing around south.

More permitted travel... good.  
Giving Merchant House members a free pass on their cultural roots.... bad.

More travel, more grief together..... very good.


Seeker

[ale six]

These two cities are at WAR. They have seperate cultures and extreme distaste for the opposite culture. They do not want people traveling between them and intermixing. Keeping people separate seems to be the smart thing for the merchant houses to do.

The two cities are at war no more than they have been for most of the game, and less so than when there were actual military campaigns being pushed.  There has always been a precarious tension between the north and south, but the Merchant Houses are neither "northern" nor "southern".  And it should be apparent to either city-state, and its nobles and templars, that the House Agents are more diplomatic and neutral in their trade than a local vendor.

If one of the city-states was to make demands of a Merchant House to the degree that it required they cease functions in other parts of the world then they would soon find themselves haing to import everything from that other city-state or making it themselves.  If you had people travel, then at least some of these northern or southern folks could RP their distaste or dislike for the other culture, but I think you would find that over time they would come to be accepted and treated the same as their counterparts as long as they remained true to their trade.

My point was that the cities are still at war, which is all too easily forgotten because they aren't overtly attacking each other in ways everyone can see. As Seeker just said, the Merchant Houses are neutral, but individual northern/southern family members try to serve their own clients in either city. Again, somebody with lots of personal relationships with nobles and templars in one city would not and should not be well recieved by the other.

I don't want people becoming "accepted and treated the same as their counterparts" if they're from another city. I don't want this at all. It would be terrible for any foreigner in either city to be treated or expect to be treated normally just because he worked for an organization that is globally neutral. It would lead to an even further perceived cooling off in the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk. Bad bad bad.

And that's okay.  There is always going to be this difference between how much effort and attention people want to give to the game.  So what you may perceive as arrogance is, in my opinion, merely that difference between someone taking the game more seriously than you might be.  My opinion is just that.  Take it for what it's worth to you.  That may be a lot, or it may be nothing.  But simply taking time to call somebody a name isn't productive at either end of the game.

I'll stop feeding the tangent after this, but I don't think your analogy did much to counter my point. You just went from "everyone should be a leader like me" to "if you don't want to be a leader like me, you take the game less seriously than I do." That's a pretty bold statement, and while it may only be your opinion, it didn't do much to sway mine away from what I wrote previously at all.

[Anonymous]

Personally I think that the people that don't want to actually -be- a leader shouldn't take the roles. They are -wasting- the position IMO when there is probably someone who would like to drive plots just sitting by waiting for it to open up.

I don't think LoD's statment about how seriously one might be taking the game is too bold at all. I agree with it completely. If I didn't want the responsibility that comes with a leader position I wouldn't take it.
Like he said earlier, some people want the positives that come with such a position but none of the negatives. When those people are in such a position the game suffers.

[jhunter]

The above was me.  :oops: