Desert elf interaction

[Hot_Dancer]

(From Naephet's old desert elf post)<<
Desert elves are all brothers of a greater elven nation:No. When one elf calls another 'brother,' it's usually because he'strying to pull a scam on the other. Elves, even those of the desertvariety, are a shifty bunch. There's no code of honor among them. Theonly elves an elf would openly trust are those in his tribe.Friendships between elves of different tribes do happen, but noteasily. There's many years of testing, and earned trust in thosesituations.

Desert elves all raid, and hate humans: The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe they come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out. >>

What makes a good candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of their tribe? No one's really touched on the subject. Once you're outside the tribe, everyone becomes more or less the same grade of kank dung unless they're a prominent historical enemy (like gith and mantis). In my current opinion: The best initial candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of the tribe are the ones who inherantly make the best victims. (In Interaction: I'm talking someone you may deal with on a regular or irregular basis for extended amount of time with included dialogue. A few traded insults or combat doesn't typically qualify). I'm not talking trust trials, odds are your tribal elf will never find a worthwhile candidate for one of these in their lifetime. These interactions are typically not trusted: Keep a knife near!

Other Desert Elves and their Tribes: Interacting with another desert elf is often as much as a spying mission to gauge the relative threat their tribe imposes upon yours as well as your little game as to how well you can rip them off. People who you know are supported by a clan are tribe become inherantly dangerous as you never know when they may try and ambush you. It's open knowledge that this elf has warrior-able tribemates (Every desert elf tribe has its warriors) and likely every resource available to do so if given the opportunity. To the elven mindset: Everyone wants that opportunity, you'll typically want that opportunity unless that character displays worth elsewhere. The current status/strength of the desert elf tribe and how competitive they may be with yours at that time will greatly influence how you interact with them.

Humans/Mixed and their Tribes/Clans/Houses: "Mixed" includes half-elves and dwarves. Upon review, I see little reason why this group should not be viewed the same as desert elves and their tribes. They bring the same risks to the table, though to the desert elf mindset: Humans have always been considered weaker and even gullible to many desert elves, if it wasn't for their numbers they'd make a more choice target to interact with.

Lone Humans/Mixed and Desert Elves:: I see these as the most choice target as: You have a tribe backing you, they do not. Especially if your tribal elf is in his or her own territory. Your usual scenario with meeting a 'lone' desert elf is because you ran into one whose travelled far from their home camp. Obviously your elf will want to make judgements based on the loner's abilities/appearance before sitting down with them as they may impose a reasonable threat on their own. Your elf should feel like they have the upper hand in some way, either through confidence that they alone are better and the tribe is near or with sheer outnumbering (bring a few tribemates).

Lone Half Giants and Muls: Even sheltered desert elves have heard of the combative prowess and raw strength of these creatures (incase they've never seen one). I see desert elves dealing with these with the utmost care and even avoiding them, as even a few moments alone could be your last. If your elf is particularly confident in their abilities and have back up though, the restrictions start to fade.

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

Hot_Dancer

[ibusoe]

Thank you very much for posting this.  I try to play my elves along these guidelines.  
You look right on the money to me.

[Angela Christine]

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

There is more than one way to use another person, and more than one way to press an advantage.

If you try to kill them, and succeed, then the other guy is dead and you get whatever he has on him.  This is reasonable if you (and for an elf ÿou" probably includes all the other members of the tribe as well) are in desperate need right at that moment, if you are in danger of immediate starvation or dehydration then going for the quick buck makes sense.  

However, most of what the lone stranger has on him probably isn't immediately useful to you, and hoarding isn't part of most delven cultures --  storehouses full of junk are more of a human/city thing.  Many travellers are part-time traders, even if it isn't their main gig it can be a profitable sideline, so you may be able to get whatever he has that you would consdier worthwhile through a trade rather than raid.  A trade can be simply a more efficient type of raid, taking things you value in exchange for things you don't value, but leaving the mark with his life and his dignity so that you can use him again next week.  You can't spell traid without raid -- ok, you can if you are a spelling nazi, but Zalanthans are illiterate so spelling is moot.     Most marks know that they are over-matched in the wilderness, theoretically you have a whole tribe nearby, so they may willingly swallow a "bad" trade to keep your goodwill.  Once you have established a traiding relationship with a particular mark, it will be easier to scam that target in the future.  Delves generally don't like visiting cities, so why not get that worthless loner to do the dirty work for you?  If the city has things you value (food, water, booze, spice, herbs, etc.) you can use the outsider to get those things for you, without the need to expose yourself to the filth and danger of visiting the city yourself (this is probably even more useful to a generally violent raiding tribe, who may have enemies in the cities).  Some people may even pay for "protection" or a native guide if you phrase it just right, you'll both know it is really a bribe or fine, but if they pay it voluntarily there is no emnity.  

When trying to trade between a desert dweller and a city dweller, it is useful to keep in mind the difference between IC and OOC knowledge.  Natives who traded rocks containing gold for glass beads were not stupid, they were trading something pretty but common for something pretty but uncommon.  Trading unworked lumps of gold for copper pots was a good deal in areas where you could fund lumps of gold on the surface but had neither the materials nor the technology to make metal cookware  --  the fact that the other guy could trade the lump of gold for dozens of pots was unknown and basically irrelevent.  You may know OOCly that a shop in Allanak will pay a fortune for an herb or mineral that is common in your territory, but there is no reason why that would be common knowledge among your tribe.  If you can trade a handful of basically useless rocks, gemstones, crystals or herbs for a barrel of water, you'll probably be pleased with the way you scammed that stupid round-ear, even if you know OOCly that the round-ear thinks he scammed your stupid tribal.  Just something to keep in mind.


You never know how combat will go, or if that loner is really alone.  If you try to kill him and fail, then you have made an enemy not just for yourself but for your entire tribe (including the unskilled youngsters).  He may appear to be alone and lack clan markings, but he could still be a scout for a powerful group, a group that will retaliate with force if he comes to harm.  Or, despite the fact that he appears to be a fairly inept lone hunter, he could actually be a powerful warrior, mage or mindbender.  Looking harmless can be the bait for a trap -- it may be best to proceed with caution.


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

What makes a good candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of their tribe?

Anyone can be interacted with outside of your tribe. Preferably someone your elf can [/b]use[/b] for their own selfish goals, as well as those of their tribe.

In my current opinion: The best initial candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of the tribe are the ones who inherantly make the best victims.

Unless you want to become known as a twinkish elf who merely attacks others for shits and giggles, I'd highly suggest you not do this. Perhaps you were referring to "victim" in broader terms, such as cheating them through trade, or stealing from them. In that case, by all means go for it. You would be displaying an excellent example of how an elf should be played.

I'm not talking trust trials, odds are your tribal elf will never find a worthwhile candidate for one of these in their lifetime. These interactions are typically not trusted: Keep a knife near!

I disagree. A few of my past d.elves and c.elves alike have given successful tests of trust to their contacts. They never lived long enough to be tested fully. Still, the point remains. All of my elves have trials of trust. They use others around them to accomplish their goals. They use others and take from them in the most subtle fashion. That, to me, is quite hard to do if you don't allow some contact to be formed between yourself and that outsider.

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

I don't think you should be so closed-minded about interaction with outsiders. Unless you are a Soh Lanah Kah, of course. If you feel awkward when your interaction with an outsider does not end with combat, I think there are some issues with your idea of what the tribal mindset should be.

I also suggest you play in another tribe besides Soh Lanah Kah. Just my opinion, though

[Forest Junkie]

Last bit was me.

[Hot_Dancer]

I've actually played in the Sun Runners and the Blackwing as well..mostly off topic.

I use the term 'victim' very broadly.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the trust trials.. if you have a tribe, I see so few reasons that could ever crop up in one of my character's minds to be willing to risk their lives to be sure of their ability to trust an outsider, when it's almost automatic among your tribemembers. You can interact efficiently enough with an outsider without giving them any measure of trust.

Anyone whose played extensively in isolated desert elf tribes has probably got a little tickling for talking with a human character due to the old and malformed census that desert elves hate all humans.

The main reasoning of this thread is to erase that..it's still quite the popular view.

Hot_Dancer

[Jherlen]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see more interaction between desert elves and the rest of the game across the board.

The majority of the MUD are human PCs or city based PCs. This is where most of the big action seems to happen, and more importantly, cities are where the newbies will show up at.

I'd much rather see less isolation. D-elves are a karma race, ergo they're being played by karma players and ones with experience with the game. Most d-elves are probably great roleplayers, but few people will ever see them because they stay out in isolation.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather see a few more people in the cities where they can bump into other players. More importantly, I wish as many players as possible (especially good ones) could be in places where newbies can meet them when they log into the game. Just a few extra PCs hanging around can really do a lot to make a location more populated than it is.

EDIT: So to come back to the point, even if d-elves aren't going to come into cities all the time, interaction with other characters in ways besides raiding and PKing can only be a good thing.

[YellowCactus]

This thread is a nice read.  I've played Delves with both Hot_Dancer and Forest Junkie.  Both players use unique styles that work great for them.  I can't play an elf to save my life.  But both occasions were a lot of fun.  Hot_Dancer seems to have a system that he has been generous enough to share on the GDB, that's great and deserves some respect.
    The arguments against Hot_Dancer's ideas of tribal life are justified as well.  From a player's point of view, the world diminishes slightly with each PK'd character.  I've made several tribal humans who spoke only the nomadic tongue and dressed the part, only to have some double-blade wielding Delf come by and clean my clock *Beep*.  Lots of tribes live in the desert, I think any oasis would be swarming with traders and tribes, hungry for the water.  When you find a lone human, try to see where s/he fits into the big picture before taking a hammer to the round-ear's skull.  Besides, killing is much more gratifying when it's personal!
-yc

[jhunter]

Haven't played with Hot_Dancer but I've played with FJ a few times. FJ is a great d-elf player.

The stuff listed by both is great information, I think either style of d-elf play is fine although I personally prefer FJ's view of it.

[Jarod550]

Immortals,

Archive this thread, whenever the day comes that I'm allowed to play anything but a human ranger, you know, maybe when I'm 40.  This would be great info for playing a nekker

jarod

[amoeba]

I'd much rather see less isolation. D-elves are a karma race, ergo they're being played by karma players and ones with experience with the game. Most d-elves are probably great roleplayers, but few people will ever see them because they stay out in isolation.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather see a few more people in the cities where they can bump into other players. More importantly, I wish as many players as possible (especially good ones) could be in places where newbies can meet them when they log into the game. Just a few extra PCs hanging around can really do a lot to make a location more populated than it is.

Other than the cities, I would like to echo this sentiment.  Much of the karma experience is in isolation.  There are some damn good players out there that most people rarely interact with except under extreme conditions.  It is not that there are no interactions that newbies have with delfs, hell the very first player that interacted with my very first, hour old character was a delf. Scared the shit out of my guy and the player.  

Somehow we need to break this additute that every weak character we see in the sands is to be attacked on sight and killed.  My delfs have always had the additute that if there was nothing they needed from them, they just leave them be.  It would just be a burden to carry a pile of worthless crap around.  Also even a delf who was traveling around solo for weeks at a time would relish a bit of conversation, even if it was with a roundear.  This doesn't mean they won't shake the character down a bit, checking to see if the person had any thing of value on him.  Remember also, information is a valuble commodity.

I would like to see more tribal humans in the desert elf outpost.  Even have a small trading presence.  I still think this should be a viable starting location for tribal humans and breeds.  If a human or half-elf has nomad as thier subguild allow the oupost as a starting location.

[X-D]

I agree with Hot_dancer's take on trials of trust. Specialy if your delf has a tribe.

Half-giants and muls, Thats simply good advice for anybody.

On attacking lone pc's far from home. I never have felt bad when my delf did not attack. Often I would instead pretend to make friends in order to gauge the PC's usefulness, abilities and objective if possible.

Also, as an often indy or player who is perfectly willing to take his pc out alone, I often laugh and shake my head when one or two delves come in and attack my pc, specialy if they looked first. Just funny to me when a karma'd player plays the PC in a manner that to me is unrealistic, Delves are not stupid, they would think about the risk. 50/50 chance that that lone pc is some lost newb or some high skilled vet. My chars over the years have killed an uncountable number of delf PC's, and none did my PC attack first.  And if its a PC wearing at least pretty good gear, carrying a couple better then normal weapons and who is perfectly willing to stand there, hey, use your head, whats the chances said pc will be able to defend his shit?

[God]

I agree with Hot_dancer's take on trials of trust. Specialy if your delf has a tribe.

Exactly.

Delves are not stupid, they would think about the risk. 50/50 chance that that lone pc is some lost newb or some high skilled vet.

OOCly, yeah, I guess. The IC reality is that if you're in the Tablelands or the far in the Grasslands, you're in their territory. They've grown up roaming this land. They've got friends that live and hunt there. They can run as fast a kank. You should be afraid.

It's kinda like Cowboys vrs Indians. I suppose the city-folk might have some advantages.

[Maybe42or54]

Better, crappy armor.
Better, crappy weapons.

There is more you can do to a human in your tribes territory than kill them. You could psi them and tell them to match you to first blood, or until one flees. You could tell the roundears to give you that cool looking armor piece they have. Take their water and pour it out. Kill their kank. Trade with them.

You can do many things, even if you get teased that don't involve ending a pcs life.

[Delirium]

Take their water and pour it out.

POUR IT OUT?!

What a waste!

[picklehead]

OOCly, yeah, I guess. The IC reality is that if you're in the Tablelands or the far in the Grasslands, you're in their territory. They've grown up roaming this land. They've got friends that live and hunt there. They can run as fast a kank. You should be afraid.

There are human tribes in both of these areas. The entirety of the tablelands aren't the property of "desert elves". If you run around attacking every human just for being out in the desert, it probably won't be long before you attack someone who's a member of another tribe or has backing from some party or another.. and then you've just brought heat upon yourself and your tribe. That's the IC reality as I see it.

[jhunter]

What Picklehead said.

[Malifaxis]

Actually, the humans that dwell on the tablelands are very few and far between, and primarily belong to *one* tribe that is well known to the desert elves.

Anyone who does not have those tribal markings is considered to be fair game.

[Jakahri]

Actually, the humans that dwell on the tablelands are very few and far between, and primarily belong to *one* tribe that is well known to the desert elves.

This is incorrect. The numbers of tribal humans that dwell within the tablelands are considered few in number merely because they are not properly represented by a base of actual pcs.

The Al'Seik are not the only "well known" tribe of humans known by desert elves.

Let us not forget the Benjari. Or the Jul Tavan, whom are known to frequent the tablelands. The Arabet, possibly a sister tribe of the Seik, can also be found in and around the tablelands, though they claim the areas around Luir's as their main place of residence.

Anyone who does not have those tribal markings is considered to be fair game.

This, also, is incorrect. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant things other than simply raiding and killing a person when you stated "fair game". You could have meant stealing, lying to, and other forms of cheating. This idea should also be applied to the Al'Seik, though, or you risk being inconsistent in your play.

I find it strange how the Al'Seik are left alone for the most part, probably due to the fact that there are usually IC consequences for messing with them, since they have a coded presence. Yet other tribes who lack a true npc presence in the wastes are slaughtered. Might I be going too far as to imply that this is because there are no consequences, IC or OOC, ie the death of your character, or perhaps war on your tribe? *shrug*

[Maybe42or54]

Or maybe they just aren't represented by Pcs to do anything to?
You have to special apply for them it seems, as you can't pick them when looking at the map in the hall of kings.

[Cenghiz]

One more thing.. If the world didn't consist of NPCs, Blackwings would have a word or two slashes for anyone messing with traders and interrupting their trade.
C'mon! I played non PKers, killing only very few PCs all the years I played Arm and I enjoyed it. You can find ways to interact other than killing..

[Anon DElf]

If you misdirect an emote and target an elf by mistake, please remember that he might not speak Sirihish to know that you're not intending to target him and that it's an OOC mistake on your part. I thought someone was about to do something very bad to him in a crowded place tonight but it turned out to be something mundane that had nothing to do with him. If I had reacted quickly it could've turned into a pretty bad scene. Thankfully I was too slow and saw the next emote from the PC, that showed me it was actually a misdirect.

An "ooc misdirect" would've saved me half a heart attack.

[Pantoufle]

Most topics regarding desert elves apply equally to city elves.  In fact, I think the two denominations of elves (city and desert) are often perceived more differently than is necessary; they're the same race with the same mind frame, nevermind where they live.

Certainly city elves are going to be more accostomed to interacting with humans, etc. but elves, perhaps moreso than any other race, are very separate from "outsiders".  A (city) elf working for a clan is a rarity as well as an outcast amongst elvenkind.  Though perhaps not as rare as a kank-riding elf or an "unfocused" dwarf or a genius half-giant, clanned elves do not represent the norm for city elves.  City elves are as tribal (indeed, sometimes more so) than desert elves.  It's part of their mindset whether a tribeless loner or a member of a street gang.  They're separate from others, even when cooped up in a city, forced to share space with the other races.

In the olden days when Blackwing was an open tribe and this whole notion of the elven mindset was still developing, BW players would be ostractized for interacting with outsiders.  So isolated was the tribe that it was essentially a separate MUD.  THAT'S not elven.  Thankfully, this has changed and I feel the current tribes more properly reflect the level of interaction allowed by desert elves.  Elves, all elves, are thieves first and foremost and merchanting, not raiding, is perhaps the largest form of thievery.  Luir's Outpost is host to more than one desert elf tribe stationed there to sell their goods yet nobody cries out asking how they are allowed to remain stationed in and interact with the locals therein.  A desert elf who owns a tent/stand/hovel to sell their goods is likely a permanent fixture in the Outpost, and therefore probably visits the local tavern to mingle on occasion (despite that they come from the wilderness).

[Angela Christine]

Certainly city elves are going to be more accostomed to interacting with humans, etc. but elves, perhaps moreso than any other race, are very separate from "outsiders".  A (city) elf working for a clan is a rarity as well as an outcast amongst elvenkind.

I disagree, particularly about the "outcast" bit.  There is nothing in the elven mindset that prevents them from getting a normal job.  That's what joining most clans really is: getting a job.  Most elves do not have jobs working for human dominated organizations, but my feeling is that this is mostly because humans are reluctant to hire elves more than all elves flat out refusing to work for humans.  

Elves have kids and grannys that need to be fed, just like everyone else, and having a segment of your tribe working in legitimate jobs is a good way to ensure that there is always food on the table.  Shady type work can have boom-bust cycles, but there is always demand for skilled workers.  Their dexterity and wisdom would make them well suited for delicate work like embroidery.  

The elf with the job doesn't have to be planning to rip off his employer either.  The thing every worker takes home to his family (or tribe) is information.  Information about shipments, building layouts, travel arrangements, personnel issues, and so on.  If I were a leader of an elven tribe I wouldn't have the guy that works as a Kadian embroiderer in on the heist at the Kadian compound.  In fact, I would make very sure that he had an air-tight alibi for that night, preferably in sight of several other Kadian employees.  That way my inside man stays inside, a trusted employee providing the tribe with a continuing stream of information (and wages).  Of course that elf will still have the elven inclination to steal, he just practices it outside the job site, or through methods that won't get him fired, like swindling other employees, running confidence scams, cheating at cards, and so on.  Trickery counts as stealing in the elven mindset.

All elves are thieves, but that doesn't mean that all they are is thieves.



Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

The elf working for Kadius would also probably feel that when their buddies are robbing the compound and itself is sitting with a bunch of half naked kadian wo/men that that is actually part of the theft and something to feel proud about. Since you can make the humans think you are not one of them.