Desert elf interaction

[Hot_Dancer]

(From Naephet's old desert elf post)<<
Desert elves are all brothers of a greater elven nation:No. When one elf calls another 'brother,' it's usually because he'strying to pull a scam on the other. Elves, even those of the desertvariety, are a shifty bunch. There's no code of honor among them. Theonly elves an elf would openly trust are those in his tribe.Friendships between elves of different tribes do happen, but noteasily. There's many years of testing, and earned trust in thosesituations.

Desert elves all raid, and hate humans: The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe they come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out. >>

What makes a good candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of their tribe? No one's really touched on the subject. Once you're outside the tribe, everyone becomes more or less the same grade of kank dung unless they're a prominent historical enemy (like gith and mantis). In my current opinion: The best initial candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of the tribe are the ones who inherantly make the best victims. (In Interaction: I'm talking someone you may deal with on a regular or irregular basis for extended amount of time with included dialogue. A few traded insults or combat doesn't typically qualify). I'm not talking trust trials, odds are your tribal elf will never find a worthwhile candidate for one of these in their lifetime. These interactions are typically not trusted: Keep a knife near!

Other Desert Elves and their Tribes: Interacting with another desert elf is often as much as a spying mission to gauge the relative threat their tribe imposes upon yours as well as your little game as to how well you can rip them off. People who you know are supported by a clan are tribe become inherantly dangerous as you never know when they may try and ambush you. It's open knowledge that this elf has warrior-able tribemates (Every desert elf tribe has its warriors) and likely every resource available to do so if given the opportunity. To the elven mindset: Everyone wants that opportunity, you'll typically want that opportunity unless that character displays worth elsewhere. The current status/strength of the desert elf tribe and how competitive they may be with yours at that time will greatly influence how you interact with them.

Humans/Mixed and their Tribes/Clans/Houses: "Mixed" includes half-elves and dwarves. Upon review, I see little reason why this group should not be viewed the same as desert elves and their tribes. They bring the same risks to the table, though to the desert elf mindset: Humans have always been considered weaker and even gullible to many desert elves, if it wasn't for their numbers they'd make a more choice target to interact with.

Lone Humans/Mixed and Desert Elves:: I see these as the most choice target as: You have a tribe backing you, they do not. Especially if your tribal elf is in his or her own territory. Your usual scenario with meeting a 'lone' desert elf is because you ran into one whose travelled far from their home camp. Obviously your elf will want to make judgements based on the loner's abilities/appearance before sitting down with them as they may impose a reasonable threat on their own. Your elf should feel like they have the upper hand in some way, either through confidence that they alone are better and the tribe is near or with sheer outnumbering (bring a few tribemates).

Lone Half Giants and Muls: Even sheltered desert elves have heard of the combative prowess and raw strength of these creatures (incase they've never seen one). I see desert elves dealing with these with the utmost care and even avoiding them, as even a few moments alone could be your last. If your elf is particularly confident in their abilities and have back up though, the restrictions start to fade.

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

Hot_Dancer

[ibusoe]

Thank you very much for posting this.  I try to play my elves along these guidelines.  
You look right on the money to me.

[Angela Christine]

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

There is more than one way to use another person, and more than one way to press an advantage.

If you try to kill them, and succeed, then the other guy is dead and you get whatever he has on him.  This is reasonable if you (and for an elf ÿou" probably includes all the other members of the tribe as well) are in desperate need right at that moment, if you are in danger of immediate starvation or dehydration then going for the quick buck makes sense.  

However, most of what the lone stranger has on him probably isn't immediately useful to you, and hoarding isn't part of most delven cultures --  storehouses full of junk are more of a human/city thing.  Many travellers are part-time traders, even if it isn't their main gig it can be a profitable sideline, so you may be able to get whatever he has that you would consdier worthwhile through a trade rather than raid.  A trade can be simply a more efficient type of raid, taking things you value in exchange for things you don't value, but leaving the mark with his life and his dignity so that you can use him again next week.  You can't spell traid without raid -- ok, you can if you are a spelling nazi, but Zalanthans are illiterate so spelling is moot.     Most marks know that they are over-matched in the wilderness, theoretically you have a whole tribe nearby, so they may willingly swallow a "bad" trade to keep your goodwill.  Once you have established a traiding relationship with a particular mark, it will be easier to scam that target in the future.  Delves generally don't like visiting cities, so why not get that worthless loner to do the dirty work for you?  If the city has things you value (food, water, booze, spice, herbs, etc.) you can use the outsider to get those things for you, without the need to expose yourself to the filth and danger of visiting the city yourself (this is probably even more useful to a generally violent raiding tribe, who may have enemies in the cities).  Some people may even pay for "protection" or a native guide if you phrase it just right, you'll both know it is really a bribe or fine, but if they pay it voluntarily there is no emnity.  

When trying to trade between a desert dweller and a city dweller, it is useful to keep in mind the difference between IC and OOC knowledge.  Natives who traded rocks containing gold for glass beads were not stupid, they were trading something pretty but common for something pretty but uncommon.  Trading unworked lumps of gold for copper pots was a good deal in areas where you could fund lumps of gold on the surface but had neither the materials nor the technology to make metal cookware  --  the fact that the other guy could trade the lump of gold for dozens of pots was unknown and basically irrelevent.  You may know OOCly that a shop in Allanak will pay a fortune for an herb or mineral that is common in your territory, but there is no reason why that would be common knowledge among your tribe.  If you can trade a handful of basically useless rocks, gemstones, crystals or herbs for a barrel of water, you'll probably be pleased with the way you scammed that stupid round-ear, even if you know OOCly that the round-ear thinks he scammed your stupid tribal.  Just something to keep in mind.


You never know how combat will go, or if that loner is really alone.  If you try to kill him and fail, then you have made an enemy not just for yourself but for your entire tribe (including the unskilled youngsters).  He may appear to be alone and lack clan markings, but he could still be a scout for a powerful group, a group that will retaliate with force if he comes to harm.  Or, despite the fact that he appears to be a fairly inept lone hunter, he could actually be a powerful warrior, mage or mindbender.  Looking harmless can be the bait for a trap -- it may be best to proceed with caution.


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

What makes a good candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of their tribe?

Anyone can be interacted with outside of your tribe. Preferably someone your elf can [/b]use[/b] for their own selfish goals, as well as those of their tribe.

In my current opinion: The best initial candidate for your tribal desert elf to interact with outside of the tribe are the ones who inherantly make the best victims.

Unless you want to become known as a twinkish elf who merely attacks others for shits and giggles, I'd highly suggest you not do this. Perhaps you were referring to "victim" in broader terms, such as cheating them through trade, or stealing from them. In that case, by all means go for it. You would be displaying an excellent example of how an elf should be played.

I'm not talking trust trials, odds are your tribal elf will never find a worthwhile candidate for one of these in their lifetime. These interactions are typically not trusted: Keep a knife near!

I disagree. A few of my past d.elves and c.elves alike have given successful tests of trust to their contacts. They never lived long enough to be tested fully. Still, the point remains. All of my elves have trials of trust. They use others around them to accomplish their goals. They use others and take from them in the most subtle fashion. That, to me, is quite hard to do if you don't allow some contact to be formed between yourself and that outsider.

Comments? I've always felt awkward when my elf interacted with less than combat with some lone hunter long from his home city, especially when teased by another elf. Probably because it does not make sense to me.

I don't think you should be so closed-minded about interaction with outsiders. Unless you are a Soh Lanah Kah, of course. If you feel awkward when your interaction with an outsider does not end with combat, I think there are some issues with your idea of what the tribal mindset should be.

I also suggest you play in another tribe besides Soh Lanah Kah. Just my opinion, though

[Forest Junkie]

Last bit was me.

[Hot_Dancer]

I've actually played in the Sun Runners and the Blackwing as well..mostly off topic.

I use the term 'victim' very broadly.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the trust trials.. if you have a tribe, I see so few reasons that could ever crop up in one of my character's minds to be willing to risk their lives to be sure of their ability to trust an outsider, when it's almost automatic among your tribemembers. You can interact efficiently enough with an outsider without giving them any measure of trust.

Anyone whose played extensively in isolated desert elf tribes has probably got a little tickling for talking with a human character due to the old and malformed census that desert elves hate all humans.

The main reasoning of this thread is to erase that..it's still quite the popular view.

Hot_Dancer

[Jherlen]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see more interaction between desert elves and the rest of the game across the board.

The majority of the MUD are human PCs or city based PCs. This is where most of the big action seems to happen, and more importantly, cities are where the newbies will show up at.

I'd much rather see less isolation. D-elves are a karma race, ergo they're being played by karma players and ones with experience with the game. Most d-elves are probably great roleplayers, but few people will ever see them because they stay out in isolation.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather see a few more people in the cities where they can bump into other players. More importantly, I wish as many players as possible (especially good ones) could be in places where newbies can meet them when they log into the game. Just a few extra PCs hanging around can really do a lot to make a location more populated than it is.

EDIT: So to come back to the point, even if d-elves aren't going to come into cities all the time, interaction with other characters in ways besides raiding and PKing can only be a good thing.

[YellowCactus]

This thread is a nice read.  I've played Delves with both Hot_Dancer and Forest Junkie.  Both players use unique styles that work great for them.  I can't play an elf to save my life.  But both occasions were a lot of fun.  Hot_Dancer seems to have a system that he has been generous enough to share on the GDB, that's great and deserves some respect.
    The arguments against Hot_Dancer's ideas of tribal life are justified as well.  From a player's point of view, the world diminishes slightly with each PK'd character.  I've made several tribal humans who spoke only the nomadic tongue and dressed the part, only to have some double-blade wielding Delf come by and clean my clock *Beep*.  Lots of tribes live in the desert, I think any oasis would be swarming with traders and tribes, hungry for the water.  When you find a lone human, try to see where s/he fits into the big picture before taking a hammer to the round-ear's skull.  Besides, killing is much more gratifying when it's personal!
-yc

[jhunter]

Haven't played with Hot_Dancer but I've played with FJ a few times. FJ is a great d-elf player.

The stuff listed by both is great information, I think either style of d-elf play is fine although I personally prefer FJ's view of it.

[Jarod550]

Immortals,

Archive this thread, whenever the day comes that I'm allowed to play anything but a human ranger, you know, maybe when I'm 40.  This would be great info for playing a nekker

jarod

[amoeba]

I'd much rather see less isolation. D-elves are a karma race, ergo they're being played by karma players and ones with experience with the game. Most d-elves are probably great roleplayers, but few people will ever see them because they stay out in isolation.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather see a few more people in the cities where they can bump into other players. More importantly, I wish as many players as possible (especially good ones) could be in places where newbies can meet them when they log into the game. Just a few extra PCs hanging around can really do a lot to make a location more populated than it is.

Other than the cities, I would like to echo this sentiment.  Much of the karma experience is in isolation.  There are some damn good players out there that most people rarely interact with except under extreme conditions.  It is not that there are no interactions that newbies have with delfs, hell the very first player that interacted with my very first, hour old character was a delf. Scared the shit out of my guy and the player.  

Somehow we need to break this additute that every weak character we see in the sands is to be attacked on sight and killed.  My delfs have always had the additute that if there was nothing they needed from them, they just leave them be.  It would just be a burden to carry a pile of worthless crap around.  Also even a delf who was traveling around solo for weeks at a time would relish a bit of conversation, even if it was with a roundear.  This doesn't mean they won't shake the character down a bit, checking to see if the person had any thing of value on him.  Remember also, information is a valuble commodity.

I would like to see more tribal humans in the desert elf outpost.  Even have a small trading presence.  I still think this should be a viable starting location for tribal humans and breeds.  If a human or half-elf has nomad as thier subguild allow the oupost as a starting location.

[X-D]

I agree with Hot_dancer's take on trials of trust. Specialy if your delf has a tribe.

Half-giants and muls, Thats simply good advice for anybody.

On attacking lone pc's far from home. I never have felt bad when my delf did not attack. Often I would instead pretend to make friends in order to gauge the PC's usefulness, abilities and objective if possible.

Also, as an often indy or player who is perfectly willing to take his pc out alone, I often laugh and shake my head when one or two delves come in and attack my pc, specialy if they looked first. Just funny to me when a karma'd player plays the PC in a manner that to me is unrealistic, Delves are not stupid, they would think about the risk. 50/50 chance that that lone pc is some lost newb or some high skilled vet. My chars over the years have killed an uncountable number of delf PC's, and none did my PC attack first.  And if its a PC wearing at least pretty good gear, carrying a couple better then normal weapons and who is perfectly willing to stand there, hey, use your head, whats the chances said pc will be able to defend his shit?

[God]

I agree with Hot_dancer's take on trials of trust. Specialy if your delf has a tribe.

Exactly.

Delves are not stupid, they would think about the risk. 50/50 chance that that lone pc is some lost newb or some high skilled vet.

OOCly, yeah, I guess. The IC reality is that if you're in the Tablelands or the far in the Grasslands, you're in their territory. They've grown up roaming this land. They've got friends that live and hunt there. They can run as fast a kank. You should be afraid.

It's kinda like Cowboys vrs Indians. I suppose the city-folk might have some advantages.

[Maybe42or54]

Better, crappy armor.
Better, crappy weapons.

There is more you can do to a human in your tribes territory than kill them. You could psi them and tell them to match you to first blood, or until one flees. You could tell the roundears to give you that cool looking armor piece they have. Take their water and pour it out. Kill their kank. Trade with them.

You can do many things, even if you get teased that don't involve ending a pcs life.

[Delirium]

Take their water and pour it out.

POUR IT OUT?!

What a waste!

[picklehead]

OOCly, yeah, I guess. The IC reality is that if you're in the Tablelands or the far in the Grasslands, you're in their territory. They've grown up roaming this land. They've got friends that live and hunt there. They can run as fast a kank. You should be afraid.

There are human tribes in both of these areas. The entirety of the tablelands aren't the property of "desert elves". If you run around attacking every human just for being out in the desert, it probably won't be long before you attack someone who's a member of another tribe or has backing from some party or another.. and then you've just brought heat upon yourself and your tribe. That's the IC reality as I see it.

[jhunter]

What Picklehead said.

[Malifaxis]

Actually, the humans that dwell on the tablelands are very few and far between, and primarily belong to *one* tribe that is well known to the desert elves.

Anyone who does not have those tribal markings is considered to be fair game.

[Jakahri]

Actually, the humans that dwell on the tablelands are very few and far between, and primarily belong to *one* tribe that is well known to the desert elves.

This is incorrect. The numbers of tribal humans that dwell within the tablelands are considered few in number merely because they are not properly represented by a base of actual pcs.

The Al'Seik are not the only "well known" tribe of humans known by desert elves.

Let us not forget the Benjari. Or the Jul Tavan, whom are known to frequent the tablelands. The Arabet, possibly a sister tribe of the Seik, can also be found in and around the tablelands, though they claim the areas around Luir's as their main place of residence.

Anyone who does not have those tribal markings is considered to be fair game.

This, also, is incorrect. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant things other than simply raiding and killing a person when you stated "fair game". You could have meant stealing, lying to, and other forms of cheating. This idea should also be applied to the Al'Seik, though, or you risk being inconsistent in your play.

I find it strange how the Al'Seik are left alone for the most part, probably due to the fact that there are usually IC consequences for messing with them, since they have a coded presence. Yet other tribes who lack a true npc presence in the wastes are slaughtered. Might I be going too far as to imply that this is because there are no consequences, IC or OOC, ie the death of your character, or perhaps war on your tribe? *shrug*

[Maybe42or54]

Or maybe they just aren't represented by Pcs to do anything to?
You have to special apply for them it seems, as you can't pick them when looking at the map in the hall of kings.

[Cenghiz]

One more thing.. If the world didn't consist of NPCs, Blackwings would have a word or two slashes for anyone messing with traders and interrupting their trade.
C'mon! I played non PKers, killing only very few PCs all the years I played Arm and I enjoyed it. You can find ways to interact other than killing..

[Anon DElf]

If you misdirect an emote and target an elf by mistake, please remember that he might not speak Sirihish to know that you're not intending to target him and that it's an OOC mistake on your part. I thought someone was about to do something very bad to him in a crowded place tonight but it turned out to be something mundane that had nothing to do with him. If I had reacted quickly it could've turned into a pretty bad scene. Thankfully I was too slow and saw the next emote from the PC, that showed me it was actually a misdirect.

An "ooc misdirect" would've saved me half a heart attack.

[Pantoufle]

Most topics regarding desert elves apply equally to city elves.  In fact, I think the two denominations of elves (city and desert) are often perceived more differently than is necessary; they're the same race with the same mind frame, nevermind where they live.

Certainly city elves are going to be more accostomed to interacting with humans, etc. but elves, perhaps moreso than any other race, are very separate from "outsiders".  A (city) elf working for a clan is a rarity as well as an outcast amongst elvenkind.  Though perhaps not as rare as a kank-riding elf or an "unfocused" dwarf or a genius half-giant, clanned elves do not represent the norm for city elves.  City elves are as tribal (indeed, sometimes more so) than desert elves.  It's part of their mindset whether a tribeless loner or a member of a street gang.  They're separate from others, even when cooped up in a city, forced to share space with the other races.

In the olden days when Blackwing was an open tribe and this whole notion of the elven mindset was still developing, BW players would be ostractized for interacting with outsiders.  So isolated was the tribe that it was essentially a separate MUD.  THAT'S not elven.  Thankfully, this has changed and I feel the current tribes more properly reflect the level of interaction allowed by desert elves.  Elves, all elves, are thieves first and foremost and merchanting, not raiding, is perhaps the largest form of thievery.  Luir's Outpost is host to more than one desert elf tribe stationed there to sell their goods yet nobody cries out asking how they are allowed to remain stationed in and interact with the locals therein.  A desert elf who owns a tent/stand/hovel to sell their goods is likely a permanent fixture in the Outpost, and therefore probably visits the local tavern to mingle on occasion (despite that they come from the wilderness).

[Angela Christine]

Certainly city elves are going to be more accostomed to interacting with humans, etc. but elves, perhaps moreso than any other race, are very separate from "outsiders".  A (city) elf working for a clan is a rarity as well as an outcast amongst elvenkind.

I disagree, particularly about the "outcast" bit.  There is nothing in the elven mindset that prevents them from getting a normal job.  That's what joining most clans really is: getting a job.  Most elves do not have jobs working for human dominated organizations, but my feeling is that this is mostly because humans are reluctant to hire elves more than all elves flat out refusing to work for humans.  

Elves have kids and grannys that need to be fed, just like everyone else, and having a segment of your tribe working in legitimate jobs is a good way to ensure that there is always food on the table.  Shady type work can have boom-bust cycles, but there is always demand for skilled workers.  Their dexterity and wisdom would make them well suited for delicate work like embroidery.  

The elf with the job doesn't have to be planning to rip off his employer either.  The thing every worker takes home to his family (or tribe) is information.  Information about shipments, building layouts, travel arrangements, personnel issues, and so on.  If I were a leader of an elven tribe I wouldn't have the guy that works as a Kadian embroiderer in on the heist at the Kadian compound.  In fact, I would make very sure that he had an air-tight alibi for that night, preferably in sight of several other Kadian employees.  That way my inside man stays inside, a trusted employee providing the tribe with a continuing stream of information (and wages).  Of course that elf will still have the elven inclination to steal, he just practices it outside the job site, or through methods that won't get him fired, like swindling other employees, running confidence scams, cheating at cards, and so on.  Trickery counts as stealing in the elven mindset.

All elves are thieves, but that doesn't mean that all they are is thieves.



Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

The elf working for Kadius would also probably feel that when their buddies are robbing the compound and itself is sitting with a bunch of half naked kadian wo/men that that is actually part of the theft and something to feel proud about. Since you can make the humans think you are not one of them.

[amoeba]

All elves are thieves, but that doesn't mean that all they are is thieves.

This reminds me of something that happened this past weekend.  I was driving through Kayenta, Arizona, deep in the heart of the Navajo/Hopi nation. So I was sitting in the McDonalds there, my daughter happily screaming through the play area tunnels when I was approached by a local boy selling trinkets.

He was selling the usual tourist stuff, beaded necklaces, now I know how desperatly poor these folks are, and how little opprotunity there is out there in the middle of nothing, so I figured I'd buy something.  I look through what he has and he says this batch of necklaces were $15. I look through a bit more and point to a strand and ask how much it was again.  He then dramaticly starts counting the strands and says this one has 4 strands so it is $20, although I know it was the same as he earlier stated for $15.  I tell him I can't afford $20, so he says I can have it for $15.  I know if I worked on him I could easily get it for under $10, but I buy it at $15.

My point here is was he a thief trying to rip off the tourist? Depends on your perspective.  From his viewpoint he was concerned with helping to provide for his family and he was more than willing to exploit a tourist's confusion if possible to better provide for his own.  His motivation was not theivery, but rather survival.   I'm sure this boy had a life other than standing around McDonalds and selling trinkets, he probably would have rather been screaming through the tubes with the other kids as well.    Our characters in the game should be no less complex.

[Pantoufle]

I disagree, particularly about the "outcast" bit. There is nothing in the elven mindset that prevents them from getting a normal job. That's what joining most clans really is: getting a job. Most elves do not have jobs working for human dominated organizations, but my feeling is that this is mostly because humans are reluctant to hire elves more than all elves flat out refusing to work for humans.

Then you obviously haven't spent much time contemplating about the elven persona.

There is nothing in the elven mindset which outright prevents them from attaining a normal job, no, but it's still not a typical act for the vast majority of elves who live in tribal communties (be they in the desert wastes or cooped in a city's alleys somewhere) that percieve non members as vastly distant.  Joining a clan means sharing a bunk with clan mates (people whom you do not know or trust).  An elf's xenophobic nature is enough to deter most from even considering employment.  This, coupled with the fact that most organizations demand lifelong employment, plus loyalty first and foremost to the clan (not your family) and you can forget about any elf wanting to take a normal job!  Remember, family is paramount to an elf's livelihood, so having some stranger tell you "I'm your boss and I'm more important than your blood" is a smack in the face for any elf.  Moreover, for a loner elf joining a clan he is reinforcing his isolation by enlisting and servicing a different race (a race which perceives elves as inferior).  An elf has nothing to gain by joining a clan.  Working for a clan means upholding the clan's image, and thus not doing sneaky elvish things (which should be the singlemost important thing to any elf).  This notion of an elf "testing" his clanmates until they become his family still makes him a freak amongst his own kind -- after all, what elf would choose human company over their own kind?  A tribeless loner elf would be more prone to team up with other elves (since they have a similar motive: sneakiness) and test them than to join some H U M A N organization.  Elves need neither official employment nor human employment to earn a living or take care of their family.

I compare city elves to Roma (real world gypsies).

You come to a stop light and see some rag-clad gypsy offering to clean your car windows with an ancient sponge in exchange for a few coins.  At the next stop light there's a gypsy wading down rows of cars offering to sell a fancy tool kit (who knows how he acquired it!) at an obscene price.  They also sift through garbage, play music at weddings, and do just about anything that doesn't require official employment to earn a living.  These are city elves.  The kind of person who sells you a fake brand name watch out of his coat pocket.  These types of people don't want normal jobs and while they're generally far from rich, they somehow manage to feed Granny and otherwise survive without a clan.  For all these reasons, clanned elves do not represent the vast majority of their race.  Yes, there are real world Roma in positions of official employment, but they represent a very small portion of their people.  I'm not suggesting, therefore, that some elves wouldn't join clans (as is represented by the few NPC clanned elves and the occasional PC clanned elf), but it's most definately far from commonplace (and I don't care if you've pulled something out of the docs which says otherwise, sheer logic dictates that this is not the case).

[spawnloser]

Slight derail, it's not 'Roma,' Pantoufle.  It's "Rom," and the Tan Muark are based off of them.

[Angela Christine]

The difference is that Rom make up a very small part of the population in any city in which they live, while elves are the second most populous race in the world.  It is likely that 1/4 or 1/3 of the population in the cities is elven.  

Some of them have jobs.  Those that have jobs are not necessarily outcasts.

Forcing all elves into iso-clans serves no purpose.


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

Slight derail, it's not 'Roma,' Pantoufle. It's "Rom," and the Tan Muark are based off of them.

I live in a country (Serbia) where Roma -- yes, Roma -- are one of the larger minority groups here.  In my native language they are called Roma and not Rom.  The Roma here, whom I am acquainted with, similarly refer to themselves as Roma.

And by the way, I can say with experience that the Tan Muark are 100% nothing like the Roma people.  Not one stinking bit.

[Pantoufle]

Forcing all elves into iso-clans serves no purpose.

Nobody's forcing them to join iso-clans (besides which I can't think of any currently open iso clan).  Heck, join a clan as an elf if it suits you, by all means!  The only point I am making is that an elf enlisting in a clan is an outsider amongst his people and a poor representation of the elven race at large.  Most elves are members of tribal families and, as such, this sort of lifestyle does not permit working for untrusting outsiders with whom you must share a bunk with.  To a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks, any fellow elf dressed in House Salarr (or any other clan) colors is a laughable phenomenon.

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers.  I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers.  I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

Yes it does.

Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans.

To throw my two cents into the mix, I would say that there are simply too many elves on Zalanthas for them to have any hope of surviving solely as vagrants and conmen.  However, while the average elf is likely to acquire an honest job, he isn't likely to stay honest while doing that job.

Getting a job can open up countless new ways for an elf to misbehave.  They can perform as an inside man for their employers heists.  They can sell information.  They can earn the trust of their coworkers and find ways to screw them over.

If all else fails getting a job provides a cloak for an elf's criminal activity, which is very useful.

As intelligent and devious as elves are, I can hardly imagine them not attempting to gain employment.

[Pantoufle]

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers. I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

Yes it does.

Yes what does?  Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

I would say that there are simply too many elves on Zalanthas for them to have any hope of surviving solely as vagrants and conmen.

Then by your own volition the entire Labyrinth's populace cannot possibly exist, since nearly all of its residents are homeless vagrants.  In the real world today, the population is teeming with homeless, unemployed vagrants.  You probably aren't aware, therefore, that more people than not, in the world today, are poor and homeless.  Therefore, the statement "second largest race on Zalanthas" has no impact on this argument whatsoever.

Getting a job can open up countless new ways for an elf to misbehave. They can perform as an inside man for their employers heists. They can sell information. They can earn the trust of their coworkers and find ways to screw them over.

Getting a job requires having some level of trust with said employer to begin with.  I can't seem to stress enough that xenophobic people would not consider sharing bunks with strangers (of a different race, no less) just because they wanted to pull off some heist or other sneaky affair.  When you enlist in a clan, you're exposing yourself to dangers and essentially putting your life in the hands of people whom are perceived to any elf as UNTESTED OUTSIDERS.  Elves are skittish and paranoid, constantly on the alert for being robbed from by every single person they encounter.  Is it possible an elf could bypass their racial instincts and enter a clan?  Sure.  Is it likely or commonplace?  No.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

[marko]

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

This makes perfect sense to me.

Prior to 1920 the vast majority of our population in North America owned businesses.  Small, family run stuff - farms, shops, services, etc.  

Now, the vast majority of those in North America have a job.  And this is influencing how we view Armageddon and where people would be.

I agree with Pantoufle on this part.  The vast majority of elves (and likely most humans) run their own shows.  

Elves wouldn't be out there looking to work for someone else.  They'd be out there looking to work for themselves.

Anyway, as an aside, the term is Roma for the people and Rom for an individual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes what does?  Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

Please, if you have a better source of information then share it.

Then by your own volition the entire Labyrinth's populace cannot possibly exist, since nearly all of its residents are homeless vagrants.  In the real world today, the population is teeming with homeless, unemployed vagrants.  You probably aren't aware, therefore, that more people than not, in the world today, are poor and homeless.  Therefore, the statement "second largest race on Zalanthas" has no impact on this argument whatsoever.

This really isn't relevant to the discussion at hand, but since it seems to me that there are a lot of buildings in the labyrinth, I don't expect that the majority of those living there are homeless.

Getting a job requires having some level of trust with said employer to begin with.  I can't seem to stress enough that xenophobic people would not consider sharing bunks with strangers (of a different race, no less) just because they wanted to pull off some heist or other sneaky affair.  When you enlist in a clan, you're exposing yourself to dangers and essentially putting your life in the hands of people whom are perceived to any elf as UNTESTED OUTSIDERS.  Elves are skittish and paranoid, constantly on the alert for being robbed from by every single person they encounter.  Is it possible an elf could bypass their racial instincts and enter a clan?  Sure.  Is it likely or commonplace?  No.

Would an elf refuse to rent an apartment since the landlord would obviously continue to have access to the place she lives?

Would an elf refuse to buy food from someone who wasn't a member of her tribe because an outsider could concievably poison it?  Would she refuse to buy a mug of ale when she sat down in a tavern?

Would she even go to a tavern at all, a place where her natural ability to run and escape danger is nullified by the immense amount of people populating it?

Would she refuse to buy weapons from House Salarr because the merchant could give her the crappiest blade he has in his shop and end up costing her her life when it breaks?

To some extent or another, an elf has to trust outsiders.  She has to trust them if she wants to buy basic necessities.  She has to trust them if she doesn't want to live on the streets.  She has to trust them if she wants to pull off a con.

And she will trust them, not because they are worthy of her trust, but because she understands the way the world works, probably better than a human does.  She understands that her landlord isn't likely to unlock the door to her apartment at night and murder her in her sleep.  She understands that the local grocer isn't likely to poison her food.  She understands that House Salarr has built its reputation on selling high quality weapons.

She also understands that places of employment don't slaughter their own employees on a whim.  An elf would be on her guard and would take every precaution possible, but she wouldn't avoid doing it in the first place.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?

What I think is that you are drawing too many parallels from the real world and none at all from actual game documentation.  Fare well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree with Pantoufle on this part.  The vast majority of elves (and likely most humans) run their own shows.

Certainly I'd like to see far more elves and humans self-employed.  I think that having 90% of the city population working for a clan takes away something indefinable and important from the game.

I still maintain that given otherwise equal circumstances, an elf wouldn't be less likely to seek employment than a human.

[Pantoufle]

You're comparing apples with oranges.  Trusting an enormous organization of outsiders who look down upon your kind enough to live with them and trusting someone enough to buy a drink off them, or a sword, or anything else ain't the same thing.  Shit, it ain't even the same damn ballpark!

As for parelleling real world examples, it needn't be a real world example.  It's simply doing the math.  It's common sense.  Let's pretend they're martians.

Okay, you're a Martian.  Moreso than anything else in your culture, sneakiness is your singlemost driving force in life (followed only by your need for a closeknit, trusted family group).  Because you spend your every waking moment thinking how to dupe anyone who isn't part of your Martian family, you're inherantly xenophobic of others.  Now you're trying to tell me that you're going to fly to Earth and team up with some complete strangers who have completely different customs and beliefs from you, not to mention they look down upon Martians just so you can pull off a few sneaky stunts?  I'm sorry, I find that highly unlikely.

It seems that you're more interested in merely winning an argument than deducing rational logic to conclude this discussion.  The lifestyle of an elf -- based off all the documentation available -- is not very compatible with clan life.  It requires them to cast aside many of their beliefs, customs, and traditions ... and for what?  To fool someone?  To help feed Granny?  Why go to such extremes when they can do the same by functioning as a good little elf, living as an elf should?

[Pantoufle]

The real problem, I suspect, isn't accepting the fact that few elves would ever consider joining a human organization, it's that by admitting this it's quite clearly the case they must face being unclanned and potentially isolated form the playerbase.  

Elves are different from other races in that they are all universally tribal.  Even orphaned elves have a tribal mentality and it's not likely they'll ever satisfy their need for closeknit unity amongst a human merchant house.  They'll always feel that they don't belong, they'll always be looked down upon by their colleagues and they'll always be limited with their ability to promote.

The players of city elves should be looking to do the following:

- Take advantage of the existing open city elf tribe.  It's there for a reason.

- Team up with other city elf PCs, put them through tests of trust and formulate your own tribal street gang.

- Conjure up an interesting virtual background for your elf, detailing what his small tribal family is like.  Try to get involved in plotlines while respecting your background and keeping in mind that these virtual family members mean more to you than all others.  There's no reason you can't interact with everyone and anyone.  There's no reason you have to sit around all day emoting with virtual NPC family members.  Simply use your background as a tool to involve yourself in plots.  There are countless independant unclanned characters in game, from hunters to rogue magickers, and they all function just fine without ever joining a clan.  City elves can do the same and still be heavily involved with the player base.

[Delirium]

I think an elf's tribe is more important to them than their pride in being wily and sneaky, though it is a very, very close second.  Why?  Because an elf would not do something sneaky if they thought it would harm their tribe.  An elf without a tribe could very well become either a tribe of one - very lonely, but very possible - or, alternately, rigorously test out people who might make a good replacement "tribe".

Elves do not trust other elves more than they trust humans - in fact, I would go so far as to say they probably trust other elves less.  Elves have a lot of pride, but it's a self-centered pride.  They are not as self-conscious as, say, a half-elf or a human might be.  They will not care as much what an elf outside their tribe thinks of them so long as they have good standing and respect with those they consider their tribe.  This makes it rare, but not impossible and not bad roleplay at all, for an elf to be a part of a predominantly human clan - especially if it's a clan in which you can swear for life.  Those lifesworn people would become the elf's new tribe, but he would still hold onto his own racial traits - his elven pride, his bent toward conning and trickery, his refusal to ride - however, those traits would, if the elf was truly loyal, be put toward the well-being of himself and his family.  

This actually makes an elf one of the most loyal and useful people a clan can have around, IF the elf comes to think of them as his tribe.

So - rare, but not impossible.  

I think Pantfluffy is going a little too far with the xenophobic and thieving mentality.  It is a major trait but it does not prevent them from being a part of society and living a "normal" life, it only means that they are far less trustworthy than your average group of humans.  

Lastly, there is the simple consideration that it is extremely difficult for a loner to make it on Zalanthas, which is something I think any elf will understand even better than most humans.  If they don't stumble on a group of elves that will take them in (and those elves are probably out to screw them even worse than any human), and they meet a group of humans or mixed races that, gradually, they begin to like and accept, why wouldn't they consider throwing their lot in with them?  Not in a year, probably not in two, but over the course of a long time, an elf may just decide that he wants to give them the ultimate test and join forces with them.

[Anonymous]

Yes what does? Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

I see a popular trend: players completely disregard documentation, which is why Templars and Nobles continue to spar commoners. Stop it! STOP IT! If you believe it's outdated, check with the staff, don't make your own (probably highly erroneous) assumptions. The documentation is there for a reason, it's there for your reference as a detailed information source on Zalanthas.

The players of city elves should be looking to do the following:

- Take advantage of the existing open city elf tribe. It's there for a reason.

- Team up with other city elf PCs, put them through tests of trust and formulate your own tribal street gang.

You suggest ignoring your character's persona, motivation, behavior, to follow an OOC priniciple. That is ridiculous, none of those statements actually take into consideration the character himself/herself.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[spawnloser]

Pantoufle, I would like to know what you base your opinion that the Tan Muark and Rom/Roma are nothing alike?  I actually have seen a decent amount of the Muarki in game and their philosophy, as well as knowing much of the traditional Rom/Roma philosophy.  I am Rom (granted, not by culture but by blood) and my grandmother taught me a goodly amount when I was young, as much as she thought safe (and to explain that last phrase would be to go into too muich of my family's history, so will not be done).  The old ways and the Muark ways are more similar than you may think.

That said, I still think that people playing city elves should make use of the clans already documented.  Contact your friendly neighboorhood staff for the area for details on whether there are documented tribes there.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves do not trust other elves more than they trust humans - in fact, I would go so far as to say they probably trust other elves less.  Elves have a lot of pride, but it's a self-centered pride.  They are not as self-conscious as, say, a half-elf or a human might be.  They will not care as much what an elf outside their tribe thinks of them so long as they have good standing and respect with those they consider their tribe.  This makes it rare, but not impossible and not bad roleplay at all, for an elf to be a part of a predominantly human clan - especially if it's a clan in which you can swear for life.  Those lifesworn people would become the elf's new tribe, but he would still hold onto his own racial traits - his elven pride, his bent toward conning and trickery, his refusal to ride - however, those traits would, if the elf was truly loyal, be put toward the well-being of himself and his family.  

This actually makes an elf one of the most loyal and useful people a clan can have around, IF the elf comes to think of them as his tribe.

The main difference between a human clan and an elven tribe is that a human clan is probably larger, will accept new members who may or may not be loyal to the clan, and usually isn't focused on conducting activities that are of interest to an elf.

An elf can never feel at ease in a human clan and accept them as members of her tribe because their are too many of them and an elf would never be satisfied until she was certain there was no chance that anyone in the entire clan would ever think about betraying her under any circumstances.  Giving everyone in an entire clan a test of loyalty is an exercise in futility.

Furthermore, elves do have their pride.  If they were to find a new tribe, then it would be a tribe in which they could conduct raiding, mugging, crime, cheating, or whatever other activity they feel comfortable with.  Since an elf is a very prideful individual, they would never concede to associate themselves with people who are unwilling or unable to steal.

[Pantoufle]

Good retort, EvilRoeSlade.

I find most posters here haven't spent a great deal of time considering all of the consequences of what the elven persona entails.

Elves know other elves are trying to cheat them, yes, but a tribeless elf will still seek the company of his/her own kind over a human.  To an elf, other elves have similar motives, they also speak the same language and share the same culture (humans do not).  You can never test an entire clan and, besides, even if you could, that clan has an alien culture to you which most definately does not share your particular views.

However we rank which attribute is highest for elves (tribalism over stealing, stealing over tribalism, pride over stealing, etc.), theft/sneakiness is one of an elf's foremost cultural traits.  As such, it should always be taken into account when playing an elf just as a dwarf's focus should be taken into account when playing one.

[Pantoufle]

Furthermore, elves do have their pride. If they were to find a new tribe, then it would be a tribe in which they could conduct raiding, mugging, crime, cheating, or whatever other activity they feel comfortable with. Since an elf is a very prideful individual, they would never concede to associate themselves with people who are unwilling or unable to steal.

Exactly.

Remember, theft is art to elvekind.  Why on earth would an elf choose to make a family amongst people who neither condone theft nor percieve it as an artform?

[Angela Christine]

Meh.  I still don't see why an elf getting a job would become an outcast.  Many elves wouldn't want to work for a big clan, I get that.  But there is nothing that indicates other elves should shun and despise an elf that does join a clan.  Why would elves not of his tribe care one way or the other how he makes his 'sids?  Getting a job doesn't turn you into a halfbreed or a defiler.




Elves can be xenophobic, they can have fear/hate of outsiders and strangers.  But the insiders are "everyone in my tribe" not "everyone of my race" and the outsiders are "everyone not from my tribe" not "non-elves".  There is no brotherhood of elves.  There are only People of my Tribe and Everyone else.

Good = my tribe
Bad = outsiders


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

Meh. I still don't see why an elf getting a job would become an outcast.

Though 'Outcast' might be a stretch, he would still most definately be laughed at by his superior counterparts, those elves who live in tribes and tribal gangs.  I think most elves would view him or her as a sell out, someone who can't tough it up amongst his own kind.  No elves aren't brotherly, but they still all speak a common language and because of their love of stealing they would likely choose to be around one another so they can stay in touch with their cultural roots.  Separate groups of elves in the Labyrinth, for example, still live amongst one another and have their own district, even though they don't trust the other street tribes: they want to test their skills on one another, after all.  Behaving as an elf amongst humans is exceedingly difficult to do, behaving as an elf amongst other tribal elf groups (despite that you passionately distrust them) is.

Many elves wouldn't want to work for a big clan, I get that. But there is nothing that indicates other elves should shun and despise an elf that does join a clan.

Sure there is.  Common sense.  I don't think they'd outright "shun" him, but as suggested above, he's essentially an inferior specimen.  Imagine growing up in the slums of a black neighborhood all your life.  What would you think about another black who chooses to live in a predominantly white society, dressing up and living as a "white man"?  Now imagine what an African tribesman would think of another tribesman choosing to go live amongst a white-collared community.  I think you'd be shouting "SELL OUT" and any number of derogatory terms.  

Elves do not possess a sense of brotherliness or comeraderie amongst all elven kind, and if you're suggesting that I've said so you're putting words in my mouth.  However, each tribe has one language: Allundean.  Each tribe, loner, or gang shares the same cultural roots as the next: theft.  What unites all elves?  Their love of thievery as an artform.  They want to perform it on one another, of course.  It's a challenge to them.  Humans don't respect this but other elves expect it.  Many people here are saying an elf is likely to trust a human over another elf because he knows an elf is out to rob him whereas a human may not.  Nonsense.  He's going to be more inclined to hang out with the elf (remember, there are elven communities after all) so that he can impress and compete with the outsider elf.  In the urban wilderness a human is prey to an elf whereas another elf is competition, an unfriendly fellow predator who is expecting you to show your worth and talent (before he shows you first!)

This notion of an elf treating his clan as a surrogate tribe is pure rubbish.  No clan can offer what a tribe, essential for elven prosperity, does.  If you spend a significant amount of time absorbing the roleplaying documentation on elves, you begin to realize real quick how important thievery is to an elf and the environment necessary to live/behave as an elf.

[Larrath]

I disagree with Pantoufle on several things.
Elves see stealing as an art and a test of courage, but in no way does this mean elves must rely solely on this art for survival.  Doing so is admirable, but it's also next to impossible for a PC to do if you took away their newbie coins.

Elves don't really care about being seen as 'sell outs'.  In fact, though elves are extremely proud, most of them don't give half a thought to random elves from other tribes and what they say about them.  The only kind of an elf that could be called a 'sell-out' would be one that betrayed his tribe, one of the few atrocities in the tribal elven lifestyle.  Elves care about their clanmembers and about their friends, they don't give a damn about other elves.
In fact, elven tribes usually spend more time fighting against other elven tribes than they do fighting human or gith tribes.  This is also true, at least to a level, in the Labyrinth.  The Eastside is full of warring factions.

Elves don't really have that thing where they 'test their skills out' on others - if you steal from an elf and he catches you, unless that elf is powerful enough to find the concept entertaining, you're probably going to get stabbed.  Remember that elves have very little if any personal property, everything belongs to the tribe.  Stealing from an elf means stealing from the tribe, and stealing from the tribe means you die.  The elf might also feel slighted by the fact he was stolen from, leading him into revenge.

Behaving as an elf among humans is very difficult, but behaving as an elf among a tribe of strangers (without attempting to become part of the tribe) is impossible because that elf would never be trusted with anything, being eternally suspected of being someone's spy and a traitor.

There are quite a few elf NPCs that work in various clans.  Fact is that an elf is fully capable of finding a clan, a few key people, and turning it into their tribe.  This is because elves think in terms of tribes - a solitary elf is a tribe of one, not "an elf".  This is also very common among magicker elves.

An elf will not go to an elven stranger and start bragging about the thefts he's pulled off.  That's what a half-elf would do - a true elf would go to his own tribe.  Elf strangers don't hang out together, and the fact is that no elf wants to get stolen from because it's shameful.  A part of the successful steal is also involved in humiliating the victim, which helps though proud elves.

About the sell-out thing, I don't think those successful multi-millionaire black rappers are considered sell-outs in most black slum neighbourhoods.

Elves think in terms of clans - some elves will accept a clan with humans in it, others will not.  Some elves would only agree to belong in a clan where all members--regardless of race--had blue eyes or a connection to any Elemental plane or whatever else.

[Pantoufle]

Elves see stealing as an art and a test of courage, but in no way does this mean elves must rely solely on this art for survival. Doing so is admirable, but it's also next to impossible for a PC to do if you took away their newbie coins.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said elves rely on theft as part of their livelihood, on the contrary I think I've done a good job at demonstrating that it's the exact opposite.  That elves steal as an artform, not for survival.

Elves don't really care about being seen as 'sell outs'. In fact, though elves are extremely proud, most of them don't give half a thought to random elves from other tribes and what they say about them. The only kind of an elf that could be called a 'sell-out' would be one that betrayed his tribe, one of the few atrocities in the tribal elven lifestyle. Elves care about their clanmembers and about their friends, they don't give a damn about other elves.

Some might care, some might not.  Either way, that won't stop the tribal elves from laughing at him.  It's clear you haven't spent time absorbing the roleplaying section on elves.  Elves view thievery as an artform and each one aspires to be a master artist.  In a society of artists, an artist who chooses to live away from other artists is, well, not an artist.  Even if the elf who goes against the grain of his society doesn't care if he's laughed at, that still doesn't stop him from being a laughable subject.

In fact, elven tribes usually spend more time fighting against other elven tribes than they do fighting human or gith tribes. This is also true, at least to a level, in the Labyrinth. The Eastside is full of warring factions.

Says who?  Elves in the Labyrinth likely spend more time merchanting in the black markets than warring between rival gangs.  Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

There are quite a few elf NPCs that work in various clans. Fact is that an elf is fully capable of finding a clan, a few key people, and turning it into their tribe. This is because elves think in terms of tribes - a solitary elf is a tribe of one, not "an elf".

I'd like to make fully aware that I never once said an elf would never, under any circumstances, join a clan.  In fact, I clearly indicated otherwise.  An elf joining humans and living amongst humans is still living outside of his cultural society.  Remember, he's a black man choosing to live in a white society.  That may not be impossible or unlikely, but it's still not "the norm".

About the sell-out thing, I don't think those successful multi-millionaire black rappers are considered sell-outs in most black slum neighbourhoods.

No, but non multi-millionaire black rappers who live away from blacks in a white society probably are!  Those elves who live in a human clan are (most likely) neither millionaires nor famous.

[Larrath]

Says who?  Elves in the Labyrinth likely spend more time merchanting in the black markets than warring between rival gangs.  Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

Actually, I played a 'rinthi elf for a couple of months and interacted with both these tribes and have seen a fair share.  I've also got a very good compliment on my roleplay as that city elf.

I have to go, will get back to this thread later.

[Pantoufle]

I've also got a very good compliment on my roleplay as that city elf.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with this dicussion.

The point is this.   Elves don't all share one common language, the same basic cultural traditions (thievery, tribalism, pride) and often exist in elven commuinities for no reason whatsoever.  If it was "normal" for elves to become part of human organizations, then each tribe would have their own language and they would all live vastly apart from one another.  Half-giants don't have a racial tongue and that's not because of their lack of intelligence, it's because of their lack of cultural unity.  The Tan Muark don't all speak Bendune because some of them leave their home to go work for outsiders, they speak it because there exists some level of cultural ties amongst them, even within the different families of the Tan Muark.  So is the case with elves who, while fiercly distrusting of non-tribemates, still tend to (note I did not say 'must') coexist amongst one another.

For the last time, no, an elf joining a clan is not unrealistic.  But he does not represent the norm for his race, who have an ingrained set of basic traditions and share the same language.

[Anonymous]

The point is this. Elves don't all share one common language, the same basic cultural traditions (thievery, tribalism, pride) and often exist in elven commuinities for no reason whatsoever. If it was "normal" for elves to become part of human organizations, then each tribe would have their own language and they would all live vastly apart from one another. Half-giants don't have a racial tongue and that's not because of their lack of intelligence, it's because of their lack of cultural unity. The Tan Muark don't all speak Bendune because some of them leave their home to go work for outsiders, they speak it because there exists some level of cultural ties amongst them, even within the different families of the Tan Muark. So is the case with elves who, while fiercly distrusting of non-tribemates, still tend to (note I did not say 'must') coexist amongst one another.

For the last time, no, an elf joining a clan is not unrealistic. But he does not represent the norm for his race, who have an ingrained set of basic traditions and share the same language.

A quote from the language documentation:

The elvish speech is known as Allundean to its speakers. It was first recorded as a language in during Year 70 of the Dragon's Reign, during that time when the Dragon's servants collected vast reserves of knowledge of the world for the [now lost] Library which he was intent on constructing. It is likely that Allundean existed for one or two centuries before that time as a complete language. Before that time, the elvish tribes were too small and too far apart on the outskirts of the Empire of Man for any linguistic conventions to be established.
With the Dragon's arrival in the Known World and the subsequent and speedy fall of the Empire, the elvish tribes banded together for a short while (perhaps two hundred years). While closely grouped, the tribal tongues grew more and more related, eventually becoming what is now recognized as Allundean.
This language shares the peculariarity of Bendune and Cavilish in that seven vowels are used for speaking, but no vowels are used in the written form of the language.

As you can see, Elves lived in isolated clans (and therefore possess a tendency to do so, irregardless)  for a much longer period of time than their united association. True, it was enough for the language to evolve into one concrete form, but certainly this evidence weakens your argument.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Pantoufle]

Documentation is not the end all, be all of an argument (as so many posters seem to think so).  It is not the 10 Commandments.  It is not inscribed in unerasable stone tablets.  There are no fascists whipping players who dare to correct a mistake, inconsistancy, or contradiction within documentation (though clearly there are people who would like to do that).

Finding one single vague extract from an equally vague help file does not compete with largescale documentation, particularly when whatever sentance you're quoting was written 10+ real year ago whereas other documents may be more up to date with today's standards.  Allow me to expound on my reasoning for you.

Example Number 1.

Before that time, the elvish tribes were too small and too far apart on the outskirts of the Empire of Man for any linguistic conventions to be established.

Firstly, this was written long before the notion of the elven persona had even been established.  It's extremely unlikely that whomever wrote it (now over a decade ago) had stopped to consider the intricacies of elves, especially since those intricacies hadn't even been created yet.  This demonstrates the dangers of worshipping documentation as though it were an absolute.  You will innevitably prove yourself wrong in doing so.  Here's a fantastic example of why not to overanalyze help files and documents below.

One example of using documentation just to win an argument is this.  I could win the whole debate by simply quoting from help race_elf, which reads:

Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

There.  You all read it in black and white, boys and girls.  There's no denying it.  City elves are either members of street tribes or they lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty whatsoever.  Black and white, just like you all seem to want it.  There's no option for joining a clan and treating them as a surrogate tribe according to this documentation.  But you and I both know that this isn't the case.  Why?  Because we don't observe every single minutiae of trivia within help files and documents as holy scripture without any room for interpreation whatsostinkingever.

Now for Example Number 2.  Are you ready?

Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft. Imagine the great respect given for a prodigy of sculpting in human cultures. Think of the great pieces of art that you are familiar with, and how the name of the artist that crafted them has survived the centuries. Now imagine if everyone was a sculptor. Everyone in the whole world wanted to be a sculptor. Everyone loved sculpture. Everyone was jealous of the better sculptors, and got self-worth because of worse sculptors, and sculpture is how you defined your society. Now try to imagine how much esteem would be given to a great sculptor. That is how it is with theft among elves.

This kind of statement is profound.  It's also compelling evidence that elven society exists (note my use of bold within the quotation).  Societies don't exist without the mass (i.e., most) of a certain people following and practicing a set of traditions.  Elven thiefliness is not instinct, it's culture.  It's tradition.  It's passed on from one generation to the next, from one elf raised within a society that has cultures and traditions to pass on in the first place.  Joe Shmoe Elf who has decided for whatever reason to join House Whomever, swear allegience to and live evermore amongst this predominantly human organization is unlikely to successfully pass on the culture and traditions of his race since his children will not be reared in an elven society.  The keypoint here is that without a SOCIETY, culture and tradition cannot persist.  I don't give a rat's ass what one individual sentance from the help file on Allundean says about the ancient history of elves, especially since that comment cannot possibly begin to compare to the compelling evidence from the Elvish Roleplaying Index.  Elvish culture exists, you cannot deny that.  And if you're practicing somuch as rudimentary logic you'll draw the same conclusion that in order for said culture to exist, a large majority (if not most) of its populace must be living amongst one another rather than off joining clans working for other races.

[Anonymous]

I wasn't trying to attack -you- Pantoufle; I simply wanted to point out that the elven race (as a united force) was only around for a very brief period of time (200 years).

In addition, a city-elf by definition belongs to a city, and is part of a tribe already - be it Allanak, Tuluk, etc. Therefore, it is clear that elves are already immersed in a human community of which they are a part (this chiasm differentiates between d-elves and city elves). As such, it is not a vast stretch of the imagination to indicate that an elf (for the most part) would not object to joining a human-run House/clan/etc, seeing as they are already a part of a mixed tribe in a manner.

And I never meant to dissolve your argument, as I stated that it -weakens- your argument (which is less than invalidating it).

I would love to hear more on your thoughts, but instead of dismissing the Documentation entirely, I would like you to interpret it. As such, for instance, I can interpret from

Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

- since the documentation does not indicate whether the tribe is elven or human or otherwise, it can be inferred that city elves can participate in -any- tribe.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Angela Christine]

It's clear you haven't spent time absorbing the roleplaying section on elves.

Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

Firstly, this was written long before the notion of the elven persona had even been established. It's extremely unlikely that whomever wrote it (now over a decade ago) had stopped to consider the intricacies of elves, especially since those intricacies hadn't even been created yet.

I find most posters here haven't spent a great deal of time considering all of the consequences of what the elven persona entails.

Then you obviously haven't spent much time contemplating about the elven persona.

You know what?  I have contemplated the elven persona, and I still disagree with you.  I find it a little insulting that you think anyone and anything that doesn't share your view of elves doesn't understand the elven persona or hasn't considered it deeply enough.  People can understand the material and still come to different conclusions.  It is ok to agree to disagree, you don't have to insist that people who don't agree are lacking in some way.

I believe that elves (normal elves with tribes and everything) can join multi-racial organizations.  NPC elves are not all independants, some of them clearly work in multi-racial organizations.  There is no reason why all other elves would consider those elves outcasts or laughing stocks.  Elves clearly are not that isolationist, or they would be living in some distant hidey-hole like halflings do.  Many city dwelling elves are somewhat integrated into mainstream, multi-racial society.


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

I wasn't trying to attack -you- Pantoufle; I simply wanted to point out that the elven race (as a united force) was only around for a very brief period of time (200 years).

Yeah I know, nor am I attacking you.  But I don't think we need assume elves were ever a united force.  Indeed, elves cannot be unified, wholly, due to their tribal nature.  For example, an elf would never seek to erect a city.  A village for the tribe, sure.  A city, no way.  I'll touch on this more later on.  As for whether elves were once so far apart that they led completely separate lives, speaking different languages, well, this begs the question how on earth all elves conveniently share the same basic customs then.  For example, the Elvish Roleplaying Index also says the following:

To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Now, this isn't a biological certainty - but rather a social standard that has been very deeply ingrained in all elves

If most elves aren't choosing to live amongst one another, be they in the Warrens of Tuluk, the Labyrinth, or the desert wastes, then how exactly is it that every single elf, without exception, has this mentality so "deeply ingrained" in them?

In addition, a city-elf by definition belongs to a city, and is part of a tribe already - be it Allanak, Tuluk, etc.

A city-state does not constitute a tribe nor does it meet the demands for an elf's lifestyle.  It's likely most elves aren't even patriotic, instead perceiving themselves as oppresed victims of the "system".  The reason elves are tribal in the first place is because they are thieves.  If you spend your whole life looking to rob others you desperately need a communal group with whom you can trust.  Therefore, a tribe cannot be overly large in size, else the level of trust begin to break down.

since the documentation does not indicate whether the tribe is elven or human or otherwise, it can be inferred that city elves can participate in -any- tribe.

Again unlikely.  Anything's possible, but this would not explain how elves succeed in having such rich and strong cultural traditions the world over.  An elf living amongst non-elves who do not share elven customs is not a fitting "tribe" for this reason.

And another interesting point to consider is that city elves do not begin the game with 100% Sirihish.  This suggests either a) it's a misperception which needs to be corrected or b) elves TYPICALLY grow up amongst elves.  I envision city elves to be living in communities comparable to Little Italy or Chinatown.  They most certainly integrate amongst the other races (they have no choice), but at the end of the day their home is with their own kind.

[Anonymous]

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. But this pride is not something that simply springs from their distrust of outsiders of their sense of tribal community. All elves have a solid genetic disposition to be extremely proud, it is something that cannot be ignored. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

A final note on thievery must be made: an elf would never steal from a tribemate! As mentioned above, an elf identifies entirely with their tribe, it would make no sense at all for them to steal from it. Theft from a tribemate would be considered an immense crime among elves.

From those two passages (out of the role-playing documentation of elves), I may infer that the elves are genetically predisposed to be proud. What prevents them from stealing from another member of their tribe? The tribal mentality and the genetic predisposition permit the elf to conclude: I = Superior, also allows them to equate We = Superior (in terms of the tribe). As such, an elf does not steal from a member of their tribe as a result of a thought process that innately informs them of the equality of his/her tribe (as well as equating it with the 'self' with the 'self-image: it makes little sense to steal from yourself). On the other hand, an elf would readily steal from anyone NOT part of their tribe (be it an elf or a human).

In addition, we are focusing on this facet of the elven persona:

Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Elves without a tribe - what would they do? Would they rather join an elven tribe or a human tribe?

Similarly, elves see anyone not of their tribe as being a complete outsider. This extends even to other elves and other elven tribes. While the history or philosophy of your tribe may indicate a certain respect for certain outsider groups - particularly other tribes... this is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason why an elf would feel any closer to an elf from another tribe than they would to a human or dwarf. Indeed, elven tribes war among each other as much, or more, than they war with other races.

The above clearly indicates (also from the role-playing documentation) that elves make no distinction between a human or an elven tribe. The reason? I indicated it in the beginning: an elf does not trust (and is not loyal to) any individual (regardless of race) that is not intrinsically equal to the elf's self-image (either the tribe, in a tribal elf or him/herself, in a tribeless elf). The source of this intrinsic equality arrives out of their genetic disposition. In addion, one can also understand that an elf would only steal from one inferior to him/herself (or the tribe) and never from anyone inherently equal to the self-image.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Synthesis]

AC:
The only NPC elves I've ever seen belonging to any particular large, primarily human organization are the ones in the Byn, and there is supposedly a very good story behind that, if you ever care to find out.

Hmm, Kurac also, now that I think about it...but again, there's a good IC reason for that, as well.

Keep in mind though that these are very small exceptions to the rule.

Most human organizations with any sort of respectable facade to maintain wouldn't even consider openly hiring an elf, to begin with.  I think the elf's personal desire to join a human organization (whatever the justification) would play a secondary role to that primary consideration.

I'm not going to weigh in on the rest, because I think both sides have said their piece.  Absent any sort of staff clarification on the psychology of the elven race, we're not going to get any further, at this point.

Edited to add:

I lied.

Dirr:

Given that an elf makes no distinction between elf and non-elf when he is already a member of a tribe, we cannot draw the conclusion that he still would not make that distinction when he is -not- a member of a tribe.  These are two very different situations, and you would have to have more than a few lines of documentation to support that kind of assertion.  I mean, if you have a good -reason-, fundamentally premised on the documentation, that an elf would continue not to distinguish between elf and non-elf, let's hear it.  But I think it's rather bold to simply assume that such a psychologically disastrous situation (for an elf) as the lack of a tribe would have no effect on the rest of his personality.

[Pantoufle]

I'm not being deliberately insulting towards you, Angela Christine.  But I don't think this topic is a matter of opinion, rather, of irrifutible fact.  If you read the documentation and let the facts lead you, I don't see how anyone can possibly come to any other conclusion.  In my mind, it's that obvious.  Let's just make sure we all know what conclusions I'm talking about here.  

I'll repeat for a third time now I have not indicated that an elf would not join a clan or that to join one is unrealistic.  I only said that they do not represent the norm for their race.  Just as a Red Storm Villager living in Allanak does not represent the norm for residents of his home or an escaped mul does not represent the norm for his otherwise enslaved species (I may be wrong on that last one but you get the gist from my example).  All I'm saying is that I think more elves would tend to stick together than not.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Very interesting points you make Dirr.  But if the elven persona is instinctive, then there is without a doubt massive contradictions within the documentation (which is certainly a possibility).  "Deeply ingrained", for example, suggests you were raised with a set of beliefs, rather than actually inheriting some gentic predisposition.  Regardless, I don't think every aspect of the elven persona (stealing, tribalism, pride) are instinctive, each and every one.

[Angela Christine]

AC:
The only NPC elves I've ever seen belonging to any particular large, primarily human organization are the ones in the Byn, and there is supposedly a very good story behind that, if you ever care to find out.

Hmm, Kurac also, now that I think about it...but again, there's a good IC reason for that, as well.

Keep in mind though that these are very small exceptions to the rule.

If I remember correctly there is, or was, an NPC elf working in a stable.  I believe there was an NPC mul working in the same stable complex.  Does the elf own the stable?  Probably not.  Does an elven tribe own the stable?  Again, probably not.  If they do own the stable, do they also own the mul and breed their own mounts?  Maybe.

Either the elf works for the owner of the stable, or else the elf/tribe is a fairly prosperous, pillar-of-the-community type small buisnessman.  Er, buisnessperson.  Either way he is integrated into mainstream society and holds a position of considerable trust.  That doesn't mean that he isn't also a thief.


Elves rarely join the coded clans.  That is fantastic.  Most coded clans don't want to openly hire elves anyway.  I think elves do form long-term buisness relationships with people outside their own tribe.  Sometimes those relationships are between two or more entire tribes.  Sometimes it might be between an entire elven tribe and a multi-racial organization.  Sometimes it they are between a particular elf and another individual.  Occasionally that relationship will include an elf joining a coded clan.

There is no reason for other elves to hold an employed elf in contempt.  No reason for them to laugh at an employed elf.  No reason for an employed elf to be an outcast.  The elf has formed a long-term buisness relationship with people outside his clan, there is nothing wrong with that.


Angela Christine

[Rindan]

I think people are confusing the coded clans with the real organizations that exist in game.  95% of the coded clans are rich and powerful organizations.  Most organizations in Allanak are neither rich nor powerful.  Why would these organizations be inclined to hire an elf?  They will happily hire an elf for the exact same reason why people hire poor uneducated immigrants.  They are cheaper.  

Humans will very clearly fetch hire wages because they are more trusted and more culturally similar to those who have the money to offer wages.  This is going to result in some basic supply and demand actions.  The wages that elves will be able to get will drop, while human wages will go up.  The reason why you hire an elf is as plain as day.  You don't need to pay them as much.  Might they try and steal from you or screw your customers?  Maybe, but whatever they steal better be worth more then steady wages as they will be fired and maybe even beat up and robbed by militia or some other enterprising organizations.  I know if I hired elves I would make it a habbit to pay the militia a few 'sid to do something they naturally enjoy to those who screwed me, beating the piss out of elves.

As for elves, what incentive do they have to work for humans and under other elves?  Screw elven culture, a fellow has to eat.  Art and culture come second to filling your belly.  An elf thinks of stealing as an art, that doesn't make them a kleptomaniac who steals when they are obviously going to get caught and punished for it. Besides, working in many places gives plenty of opportunity to "steal" without endangering your steady job.  You need to remember the word "steal" is a relative term.  Stealing for an elf could be as simply as being lazy and doing less work the others.  Stealing could mean hampering competitors through under handed methods and stealing their customers.  Hell, I imagine an elf makes a damn good store keeper (especially in the bartering driven world of Zalanthas) as the thought of selling something for its true value just kills them.  In fact, I imagine elves are damn good business men in general.  

The "stealing" part of elven society is not at odds with human values.  Humans only get pissed off when stolen from, not when elves steal from other people.  If an elven bartender sells off information he overheard or charges tribals and foreigners who don't know prices a few extra 'sid for a drink, the owner doesn't care so long as he gets his cut.  Elves are almost made from the open regulation free economy of Allanak and Tuluk.  Hell, elves would do just fine as a CEO in modern day America, merrily planning out strategy to wreck rival corporations and leverage their spot in the market place.  Having an elf in your organization makes a lot of sense.  Who better to sit around planning ways to "steal" customers from rival organizations then an elf?  Let your elven employees practice their art, just make sure that they practice their art in a way to benefit you.

Finally we come to the "us Vs them mentality" of elves.  In this regards, I imagine that people are very correct in saying that it would be damn hard for a tribal desert elf to work for a human organization.  For city elves, tribal or otherwise, I imagine this is much less of a problem.  First off, we need to consider the tribal structure inside of Allanak.  'rinth tribes are a poor example because the 'rinth is more like the desert then it is like a city.  In the 'rinth, tribes and the human equivalent (gangs) make sense, and this is exactly how things are ordered.  

Southside though in Allanak proper (or Tuluk), I imagine that elven society looks much different.  While elves would still be in tribes, they would act more like close knit extended families.  The stereotypical Italian families that lead to the rise of the Mafia in the US run sort of like an elven tribe.  Within this family almost everyone works.  A family business might be ideal, but it might not be practical.  A family business is very unlikely to be able to support the 50+ people that might make up an elven tribe.  People need jobs or they are going to starve.

I picture a city elf tribe as having a family business or a set of family businesses that tries to employ as much of the tribe as possible.  The harsh reality is that no family business is likely to make enough money.  So, in addition to a family business that everyone might have a hand in, almost everyone probably also works.  They operate as a tribe in the social sense, but when it comes to work probably can't all work together.  For a city elf tribe, family would be priority number one, and if that meant getting a job to support your uncle that is trying to start a family business, you would get a job.  The tribe is a social structure, not necessarily an economic structure.

If you want to see what a city elf tribe looks like, I think My Big Fat Greek Wedding is probably as close as you will see in humans.  Some of that huge Greek family worked on family businesses.  Some of them worked outside of the family business.  More importantly though, they were utterly obsessed with family.  They gather as a large group whenever possible.  They might not live in the same house, but they visit each other constantly.  They help each other out and made sure that everyone has something to do and is well fed.  Nothing happens within the family without EVERYONE knowing about it.

I think people are too hung up on the economics of elven tribes, especially when talking about city elves.  Tribes are social structures first and foremost.  Survival of the tribe comes first, socialization of the tribe comes second, and perfection of art comes last.  That isn't to say that theft isn't important in elven society, but it sure as hell isn't going to interfere with priority number one, which is survival of the tribe.  If an elf keeps getting caught stealing from his employer and getting fired from his job, you better damn well believe he will get a good talking to for being so clumsy and putting his art above the collective.  I imagine such an elf would be pressed by his tribe to keep his hands off the goods and simply make money the 'honest' way until he learns how to be a better thief.  

Being an elf doesn't mean you have to be a stupid anti-social kleptomaniac and screw your steady source of income.  When considering elves, especially city elves, you need to remember that tribes are SOCIAL structures and not always economic structures.  You also need to keep in mind that theft is art and culture.  Art and culture doesn't come before your tribe or a full belly.  Finally, you can steal without being stupid.  Stealing from the people who keep your belly full is stupid.  Elves  make up a large portion of the population and (except in the 'rinth) are not segrigated from the rest the populace.  Elves clearly are a functional part of society that can do more then spam pick pocket and speak to no one outside of their tribe.

[Anonymous]

I'll repeat for a third time now I have not indicated that an elf would not join a clan or that to join one is unrealistic. I only said that they do not represent the norm for their race. Just as a Red Storm Villager living in Allanak does not represent the norm for residents of his home or an escaped mul does not represent the norm for his otherwise enslaved species (I may be wrong on that last one but you get the gist from my example). All I'm saying is that I think more elves would tend to stick together than not. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pantoufle's statement is correct is we're looking at the species as a whole. However, if look strictly at TRIBELESS CITY elves, it does NOT hold true based on the FACTS  provides in the ROLE-PLAYING DOCUMENTATION OF ZALANTHAS (I am citing it AGAIN):

Similarly, elves see anyone not of their tribe as being a complete outsider. This extends even to other elves and other elven tribes. While the history or philosophy of your tribe may indicate a certain respect for certain outsider groups - particularly other tribes... this is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason why an elf would feel any closer to an elf from another tribe than they would to a human or dwarf. Indeed, elven tribes war among each other as much, or more, than they war with other races.

Given that an elf makes no distinction between elf and non-elf when he is already a member of a tribe, we cannot draw the conclusion that he still would not make that distinction when he is -not- a member of a tribe. These are two very different situations, and you would have to have more than a few lines of documentation to support that kind of assertion. I mean, if you have a good -reason-, fundamentally premised on the documentation, that an elf would continue not to distinguish between elf and non-elf, let's hear it. But I think it's rather bold to simply assume that such a psychologically disastrous situation (for an elf) as the lack of a tribe would have no effect on the rest of his personality.

Synthesis - this is the reason why a tribeless elf would see outsiders in the same light as a tribal elf:

Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

The only difference between the views of a tribal elf and a tribeless elf is that the former has a WE/THEM mentality, while the latter has an I/THEM mentality.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Anonymous]

Uhhhh..... please forgive the gross errors (in writing) in my previous post, I hope you can still read it.... apologies.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Pantoufle]

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

[SpyGuy]

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

It has always been that way and in many cases makes sense.  Elves being a part of tribes, or at least broader elven communities (I imagine even in the Commoner's quarters of both cities the elves have their own isolated living quarter...maybe that should be added to flavor up the region...) and are so isolated they may not know perfect Sirihish.

They don't start with bad Sirihish by any means and it improves quickly for elves.  If it doesn't fit your background well just play it off as not understanding the human's enunciation perhaps?  Or as having a thick accent yourself.

[Folker]

In a way, I disagree with having elves feeling the same amount of animosity to outsider humans and outsider elves. And that comes from me, who 'never' played an elf, city based or tribe based.

Basically, what I am coming from, is that ontop of any other reasons, people (atleast humans) tend to hate those who hates them.  So, while they mistrust other elven tribes for being outsiders, they know that they are mistrusted by them in return, and may war over land, resources, insults, etc. While at the same time, they would mistrust and dislike the humans (especially allanaki probably) more then any other, because they know that they might fight over resources, land, insult, and ... well just because humans are entirely biased against elves.

[Pantoufle]

Angela Christine would disagree with you SpyGuy.

I'm not sure how far into the debate you've reached but, you see, we're arguing whether (most) elves live in elven communities or not.  I'm saying that the majority of them do, as is evidenced by NPCs (of which there are more city elf tribal NPCs than not, if one were to merrily waltz on through the Labyrinth and have a look around), as well as imperfect Sirihish for starting PC elves, not to mention a wealth of compelling documentation.

And, for the record, I didn't say city elves begin with "bad" Sirihish, I merely said "lower" -- as in lower than 100%.  I was being sarcastic by suggeting it may be a bug or quirk in the code, because I think it's appalingly obvious why elves don't start off speaking perfect Sirihish.

Once, many eons ago, I played a city elf in House Kurac.  He'd been adopted by a famous long lived Kuraci and raised amongst them.  One day, along came a Tar Kroh elf (before House Borsail had wiped them out -- yes, this is in the documentation, all you IC Fascists hoping to have me arrested for daring to mention this).  The Tar Kroh made a huge scene in the tavern, laughing down upon my poor elf for working for them.  He said I was weak, tribeless, and a pitiful example of my race.  I think the Tar Kroh RPed exactly how most tribal elves would look upon the smaller populous of tribeless elves.

[Angela Christine]

I'm not sure how far into the debate you've reached but, you see, we're arguing whether (most) elves live in elven communities or not.  

Who is arguing that with you?  I don't see it.  

All I've been arguing is that an elf that works with a multi-racial organization wouldn't necessarily be considered an outcast or a laughing stock by the majority of other elves.  I didn't say anything about living in an elven community.  Living in elven communities doesn't mean you can't interact deeply with other communities.  Tribeless elves are probably held in contempt by other elves, but being employed isn't the same as being tribeless.

Of course most elves live within elven communities.  They just don't live exclusively within elven communities.  There are probably plenty of elves living in the elvish section of the 'rinth that rarely interact with members of other races.  But if your tribe lives in Allanak or Tuluk, there isn't an exclusivly elven neighbourhood to retreat to.  Your family/tribe are elves, but your neighbours are elves, humans, dwarves, and half-giants.  In the regular commoner neighbourhoods even the self-employed elves are likely to deal with many customers of other races, shopkeepers of other races, and neighbours of other races on a daily basis.  There aren't any elf-only tennements or elf-only shops for them retreat to.  The tribes are subcultures within the greater culture.  

I think Rindan's Big Fat Elf Wedding example was particularily apt.




The language thing is a bit of an oddity.  Newbie dwarves seem to be even worse at sirihish, and learn it more slowly, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with dwarves forming associations with mainstream society.  No one expects dwarves to isolate themselves and only associate with other dwarves.  Half-elves are in an even more awkward position.  They start with good Sirihish and poor Allundean, which is unfortunate if they are playing a half-elf raised by elves rather than one raised by humans.  Are half-elves never raised by elves?  And if the half-elf was raised by humans, then why does she speak Allundean at all?  Elves, half-elves and dwarves all start with two languages, if one is inappropriate to your background you ignore it, and if one is underdeveloped for your background you try to get it up as quickly as possible and then ignore the discrepency.  If elves and dwarves were supposed to have isolationist backgrounds they wouldn't need to start with Sirihish at all.


Angela Christine

[SpyGuy]

I'm retarded for not reading the last two pages of the thread before posting earlier to respinde to Pantoufle and its late so forgive my total lack of understanding his point.  Skip to the bottom of this post for a summary of my rant if you want.

That said I agree with both AC and Pantoufle to degrees.  City elves live a segragated life, they have their own culture.  They probably live in their own areas even if there isn't a coded "elf ghetto" in the Commons like there is in the 'rinth.  They probably grow up speaking Allundean the vast majority of the time (hence the language skills) and living their life trying to get by and one up the humans who think they're so superior.  And of course try to prove themselves stealing, etc. etc.

But...I don't really see why all elves working for organizations would always be labeled outcastes.  All depends on circumstances.  If they're of your tribe and they're doing it because it pays good but in the process neglecting tribal duties then they're barely worth being called elves and should probably be taken care of.  But if the elf hired on with Salarr to learn the movements of its caravans or gain access to something to steal for the tribe then where is the harm?  He's being a productive member of tribal society even if the job would be disagreeable to him.  And if the elf isn't of your own tribe how do you know it which one it is?  You could assume sure but the elf in question shouldn't give a shit what the broader community of elves thinks, its what his tribe thinks of him that matters.

But here's the problem with city elves as they are (and I believe Imms have stated this should change in the future):  they usually aren't a member of a tribe.  People need to remember that Haruch Kemad's existence isn't common knowledge in the game world, it's actually ironic that the only OOCly documented elf tribe is one of the most secretive in the game world.  Granted for good reason, they need players somehow (intert plug for one of my favorite clans)

But tangent aside, so many PC city elves are orphans.  Being an orphan no matter what is like being scum in elven society.  In a society based on the tribe what place do orphans have?  The fringe.  And people on the fringe are the most likely to be breaking cultural norms and taking a step outside the community.  So I could see an orphaned elf moving to take refuge of a sort in a multi-racial organization, maybe at first they took it for their own benefit but through trust tests they might even come to accept clan X as their own tribe.

Summary:  Your typical elf wouldn't be joining a multiracial organization.  But the way the game is set up right now most PCs aren't your typical elf, they're orphans who represent the fringe of elven society.  And frankly its not IC for all city elves to flock to the rinth or to seek to ally themselves with rinth tribes, which to my knowledge are the only tribes coded in the game right now.  In the end though elf PCs of different tribes may share the same cultural framework but certainly don't have a sense of solidarity.  Therefore if your elf PC would ridicule an elf for being a member of a human owned House then go for it.  And if your elf PC has a valid reason to seek employment with a House (either working for his tribe, being an orphan just trying to get a place to live, etc.) then feel free to do that.

[Pantoufle]

Who is arguing that with you?

All I've been arguing is that...

I could turn this into a big quibble fest but I'll just leave it at that .

Tribeless elves are probably held in contempt by other elves, but being employed isn't the same as being tribeless.

9 times out of 10 yes it is.  An elf who is a member of a tribe (be they part of a vast family of desert elves or an elven gang of street punks) is not going to join a clan.  Interact with a clan, yes.  Spy, steal, assassinate "unofficially" for a clan, sure.  Join a clan and share a bunk with strangers, swear (usually lifelong) loyalty to, etc., etc., no.

But if your tribe lives in Allanak or Tuluk, there isn't an exclusivly elven neighbourhood to retreat to.

There may not be one coded, doesn't mean there isn't one.  There isn't anywhere to urinate in the Trader's Inn but I'm quite certain the nobles don't step out onto Meleth's Circle to mark their territory either.

No one expects dwarves to isolate themselves and only associate with other dwarves.

No one expects the same of elves, for that matter.  Indeed, that's the very point of my post to begin with.  But there are elven communities, even if you're not seeing them.

Half-elves are in an even more awkward position. They start with good Sirihish and poor Allundean, which is unfortunate if they are playing a half-elf raised by elves rather than one raised by humans. Are half-elves never raised by elves? And if the half-elf was raised by humans, then why does she speak Allundean at all?

To counter this, once, I wished up indicating that my character was raised amongst elves and an immortal changed my language per centages for me.

If elves and dwarves were supposed to have isolationist backgrounds they wouldn't need to start with Sirihish at all.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread who even remotely suggested that either elves or dwarves came from isolationist backgrounds.  An asian man living in Chinatown sure as shi* ain't isolated, but that doesn't mean his English is perfect either.  He's also not very likely to go work for a non-Chinese shop come to think of it.

Let the data lead you, not the other way around.

[Primalfire]

Well, I'm only posting b/c somebody mentioned Tar'Kroh, of which I was a founding member. Haven't been on Armageddon in years, and I still have my old school desert elf and logged on for the first time in AGES and had an interaction that to me, points out how people who roleplay conniving desert dwellers can improve. (btw, wow!, the game has changed alot, great going guys!!)

My character has A Thing, and is hanging out in a desert elf establishment.
Other character sees Thing, and instead of bartering, conniving, trying to get a great deal or upperhand ... all that starts coming out are death threats, rather quickly. Right there in 'public' .. give it to me, or I'm gonna kill you ... in essence. Not even VEILED or sneaky death threats.

This has got to be the lamest RP'ing I've ever seen for a race that takes pride in taking advantage of others, of winning a game of wits, of proving their superiority, of winning the upper hand.

To me, as an old-timer, the desert elf race was always about freedom of individuality, confined to the group and play style of the tribe. Being sneaky and conniving did NOT mean slaughtering everything that moved in the wilderness and killing every PC who came along (even though the TK did have that reputation for a little while.)

It was about playing 'the game', and leaving people wondering and confused about the elvish motives. Instead of slaughtering everybody, we'd steal their shoes and mounts, take their water, let them travel back to cities with only a dagger and a loin-cloth. That kind of thing, is to me, the essence of 'getting the upper-hand.'  And what I did with my tar'kroh in the city was excellent (It may have been my character who slammed that poor city elf a few posts back..., if not I was certainly there.)

Sneaky and conniving does not mean cold-blooded thug-murderous-killer, especially considering that elves would live close to the land and have a better respect of life and how absolutely necessary it is in a harsh environment for survival. Arbitrary murder of characters, whether in a city or the desert, is pyschotic behavior ... defending a specific territory is reasonable, and knowing that entering X-tribes territory is paramount to a death sentence, and knowing it, and then getting axed is your own damn problem.

Constantly attacking and threatening anything that moves, unskillful and vulgar. Dogmatically following an 'isolation' policy, short-sighted. Any intelligent tribesman will avoid cities, but not interaction with 'city-dwellers' if there is an advantage for themselves or, more importantly, their tribe.

[amoeba]

Constantly attacking and threatening anything that moves, unskillful and vulgar. Dogmatically following an 'isolation' policy, short-sighted. Any intelligent tribesman will avoid cities, but not interaction with 'city-dwellers' if there is an advantage for themselves or, more importantly, their tribe.

In full agreement.  I see this behavour a lot with what I suspect are newbie delves.  This is doubly so of some tribes. There is a reason this is a karma class.  It takes some time to wrap your head around the delf mindset.

[Anonymous]

Elves and slaves.  My two favorite subjects on Armageddon.

Desert elves:  The reason to have desert elves, in my opinion, is to offer a different KIND of gameplay.  One that does not revolve around the citystates.  If you want to play an elf that spends his time in the city, then play a city elf.  The point behind desert cultures is to explore desert cultures.  Most of these are, by nature, somewhat isolationist (where isolationist means "does not live in, around, or rely upon a city or the people who play there").  The key to giving them more interaction with others in the world is to establish a reason for them to interact with people outside of the cities.  

Back in The Day, Salarr had established a great trading relationship with the Blackwing.  There was ONE GUY who had gained the trust of the elves and they gave him things that meant nothing to them in exchange for things that they couldn't make themselves (like better weapons and armor), and that was a perfectly fine reason to interact.  Other reasons to interact included desert travellers who traded skins from other parts of Zalanthas that were not available in the tablelands, killing off raiders from the citystates, harboring fugitives, hunting fugitives, etc.

PKilling and territory:  Desert elves have every right and expectation to brutally murder anyone they see on their territory if that person is not of their clan or race, whether they are alone or with a brigade of ten thousand.  Why?  Because where you live is sacred.  If someone else finds out where you live, they could muster an army of a couple thousand and wipe you, your family, and everyone you have ever known off the face of Zalanthas.  Nevermind what one magicker can do - and if someone is  powerful enough to survive -alone- in the wilderness, you have EVERY right to be scared as hell of that mother.  In fact, attempts to wipe out elven clans have happened just like this.  And it's one of the reasons elves are so incredibly distrusting of other people.  Some tribes HATE other tribes and are only rarely not seen trying to kill one another.  This is also acceptable.  Would an elf automatically kill another elf who is not in his tribe while visiting an outpost?  No.  That's just stupid.

Furthermore, by giving elves resources within their territories that are not available other places in Zalanthas (and by restricting what is available within this area), that fosters your basis for interaction.  If you want to make friends with an elf, or trade, establish a desert outpost and do it, or give desert elves (or desert people) real reasons to go to Luir's.

And yes, it is possible to work with people fairly extensively without trusting them.  It's called "stealing".  Whether that's in the form of clever bartering or pranks, the elf should always perceive that he has some form of advantage, and that is the only motivation for him to continue the interaction unless tests have occurred to level the playing field.  An elf would never cheat his tribemate.

City elves:  Any city elf who takes a "job" without having his own ulterior, self-serving motive is just bad RP.  City elves can be clanless or clanned.  Those who are clanless will be viewed, by those who are clanned, as outcasts.  Those who are clanned have little reason, in most cases, to accept "jobs" from those who are outside their clan.  Most clans are clans because they have members who serve all the functions needed by the people in that clan, and elves inside that clan should trust their brethren as if they are family and focus on doing the best thing for the tribe above the individual.  Therefore unless a clan requires a spy or a contact, for example, it is more likely that a clanless city elf would be in a position to solicit employment or work for himself.  This does not mean that a clanned elf who takes a job would be outcast.

As an elf in a city, I would take a job because I am, for example, spying on my employer for extra 'sid, robbing him blind, or framing him for something ultra nefarious that I and/or my buddies are planning/doing (this includes using an employer to get close to a target for assassination and revenge).  However, by and large, I would consider elves to be the entrepreneurs of Armageddon.  Where there's money to be made, make ten times it.  And that's how I would play an elf.  They are not reliant upon other elves or upon humans.  To be reliant upon a human would be akin to being the slave of a slave.  It would be embarassing, and a sign of weakness and stupidity -  two things that should get you killed as an elf amongst elves, regardless of your origin.

Renting an apartment from a human is just engaging in a deal - but you might have tested the owner of that apartment for trust before consenting to rent with him or her, and you should prefer to deal with elves rather than humans in every context, unless you think that you have a significant personal advantage to dealing with a human instead of an elf, all things else being equal.

[amoeba]

PKilling and territory:  Desert elves have every right and expectation to brutally murder anyone they see on their territory if that person is not of their clan or race, whether they are alone or with a brigade of ten thousand.  Why?  Because where you live is sacred.  If someone else finds out where you live, they could muster an army of a couple thousand and wipe you, your family, and everyone you have ever known off the face of Zalanthas.  Nevermind what one magicker can do - and if someone is  powerful enough to survive -alone- in the wilderness, you have EVERY right to be scared as hell of that mother.  In fact, attempts to wipe out elven clans have happened just like this.  And it's one of the reasons elves are so incredibly distrusting of other people.  Some tribes HATE other tribes and are only rarely not seen trying to kill one another.  This is also acceptable.  Would an elf automatically kill another elf who is not in his tribe while visiting an outpost?  No.  That's just stupid.

The problem with this mindset is it it rather one-dimensional and leads to somewhat shallow and over time uninteresting play.  It is also in many ways incorrect.  

While the ultra-territorial elven tribes do exist, they do not represent all tribes by any means.   This does not mean that different clans trust each other, they don't for many reasons. Many of the reasons are layed out in the various clan's documentation.  A nomadic tribe would be  focused on keeping their tribe alive.  With a population of a few hundred to a few thousand, it would be very dangerous to piss off a large group such as a large merchant house, or a city state.   Raising the radar by attacking members of these groups is foolish to the extreme.

I do see time and again Desert Elves exhibiting the most extreme anti-social behavior. Often extending to those of their own tribe.  Many act like trolls guarding a bridge.  While there is nothing wrong with this, in ignoring the many layers of tribal life and focusing only on the aggressive aspects, much is lost.  Tribal life would also be about having a rich oral history, and deeply ingrained rituals and beliefs that are explored.  The tribal would exist in a tightly knit extended family that are highly interdependent upon each other.  The aggressive nature is only one aspect of tribal life.

[John]

Of course that elf will still have the elven inclination to steal, he just practices it outside the job site, or through methods that won't get him fired, like swindling other employees, running confidence scams, cheating at cards, and so on.  Trickery counts as stealing in the elven mindset.

Or "providing inside information to his tribe." He's "stealing" the information, and being paid to do it. He's in a situation where he MUST have that information for Salarr. That's a highly respectable elf right there. He might consider himself the best thief of his tribe "oho! My employer just said he trusted me because I wasn't part of the break-in. How good am I? Not only was I crucial to the plot by stealing the info, I've gained his trust WHILE stealing the info. By the way, he's investigating this area for the elves who broke in, so stay clear of there for a while."

My point here is was he a thief trying to rip off the tourist? Depends on your perspective.  From his viewpoint he was concerned with helping to provide for his family and he was more than willing to exploit a tourist's confusion if possible to better provide for his own.  His motivation was not theivery, but rather survival.   I'm sure this boy had a life other than standing around McDonalds and selling trinkets, he probably would have rather been screaming through the tubes with the other kids as well.    Our characters in the game should be no less complex.

When I went to Venice I was warned that the beggars actually made quite a bit of money from tourists, and that after a hard day's work of begging they'd catch the ferry to their completely normal home, get washed up and live completely normally.

That's thieving. And it's completely legal. As for your boy, he may have been poor, or he could just as easily have been ripping you off for some extra cash for some CDs he wanted. You just never know (unless of course he was obviously diseased or something).

The only point I am making is that an elf enlisting in a clan is an outsider amongst his people

I disagree 100% on this.

Remember, family is paramount to an elf's livelihood, so having some stranger tell you "I'm your boss and I'm more important than your blood" is a smack in the face for any elf.

Or he might go home and say "my boss is a real wanker. He said my first priority is him and not my tribe. I of course agreed, I didn't appear too eager, but I agreed somewhat. I think I fooled him, the bloody idiot. This is going to be easy!"

Working for a clan means upholding the clan's image, and thus not doing sneaky elvish things

You mean like getting paid to learn how to work wood (done for his clan and himself), getting good bargains in trade (done for his clan and himself) and getting free food and water? (provided for by the clan) [sarcasm] You're right. An elf would rarely do any of that. [/sarcasm]

An elf whose employed by a clan is an elf his tribe doesn't have to provide food or water for, and is an elf who will be able to provide for his tribe in a very different manner then normal.

I think the single most sticking points in joining a clan would be "life service" and "sleeping in the barracks." Elves can't join the militia or noble houses, so life service isn't important. And I think if you can afford your own apartment, a merchant house will let you rent it, but you'd have to enquire in game.

Desert elves are definitely at a distinct disadvantage in joining clans, and should probably happen only once every blue moon. But city elves would certainly be willing to join a clan, if the clan is willing to hire the city elf

This notion of an elf "testing" his clanmates until they become his family still makes him a freak amongst his own kind -- after all, what elf would choose human company over their own kind?

No, he didn't choose human company. He chose Outsider company. Also, it should take years to test people, so there's no way an elf would be able to test an entire clan Instead the elf has to control the situations he's placed in, to avoid being at a disadvantage to the outsiders. And an elf won't avoid all outsiders. He'll deal with them when he has to, and when he's working to steal from them.

A tribeless loner elf would be more prone to team up with other elves (since they have a similar motive: sneakiness)

I disagree. I don't think elves truly understand human's disrespect for stealing, after all there are numerous and numerous examples of them doing it every day. I think they'd be very puzzled by humans' continuous claim that stealing is bad, and would develop strange opinions about them. Also, elves aren't after sneakiness, they're after stealing. One doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Elves need neither official employment nor human employment to earn a living or take care of their family.

They don't need it, but the reward can be quite large when done properly

For all these reasons, clanned elves do not represent the vast majority of their race.

I agree, but only because it takes such a large chunk of time that a tribe couldn't afford for too many of it's members to be employed.

To a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks, any fellow elf dressed in House Salarr (or any other clan) colors is a laughable phenomenon.

You mean he'd be laughed at because the elf managed to con Salarr into thinking that the elf wouldn't steal from Salarr? Sounds like a very admirable elf to me. ESPECIALLY if that elf is also from a tribe which has predominantly been "a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks."

This isn't a black man abandoning his neighbourhood to go live on Wall Street. This is an elf choosing to serve his tribe.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

This makes perfect sense to me.

The flaw in the argument is fairly big. For the sake of the argument I'll assume that the family of the Arabic family would be extremely hard done by if the father were to join the monopoly. Comparing that with an elf joining a clan assumes that the only advantage being in a clan provides to the tribe is "being able to do a few sneaky stuff" and that the tribe will be helpless without the elf. This is simply not true.

Is an elf joining a clan a depletion of tribe resources? Yes. But if they're doing fairly well, they'll benefit hugely from this. If they're struggling to survive, they'd only do so as a very last resort (of the "we're going to die if we don't do something drastic" variety).

Some might care, some might not.

No. None care. They only care if they're a member of their own tribe, if they've befriended the person (after many years of trials) or if a person's opinion will significantly hamper the elf's ability to steal.

Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

I think we've crossed a line into IC info. Please be careful, finding about groups not on the publicly viewable website is extremely fun for people. Reading it on the GDB detracts from the enjoyment of the game for these people. Even a name is a bit too much, otherwise I'd mention the name for........

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

Same reason dwarf's do. I'd love for this to change, it seems unlikely to though anytime soon. I can't imagine a single argument that hasn't been made before.

[Primalfire]

Desert elves have always been my favorite race due to the interesting and unique roleplay opportunities available to them. Not to mention, they are fantastic for exploring the wonderfully designed greater world of Zalanthas, which is something that round-eared, slow-footed humans rarely get to do. And by explore, I mean _explore_ .. not take a trip to some random outpost once in a blue while.

Part of the interesting rp opportunities are the unique personalities that elves have. The current mindset that seems to prevail about delves is, immature and leaves opportunities for development.

City elves have been hashed to pieces, yet here are my takes on the three major types of delves:

Tribal with established Territory - A tribe that has a territory is, in theory, large enough to hold and protect that territory. Trespassing on that tribes territory is tantamount to suicide. This does not mean that all of Zalanthas is 'territory', and that anybody in the wastelands is a valid target for 'protecting our lands from invasion.'

Tribes will also have a social system, a cultural foundation, and moral values that would hold the tribe together.

And while robbery, thievery and murder may be a part of how some tribe members make a living, a whole tribe based on slaughtering wanderers would eventually get wiped out (or nearly so ... *wink*) .. There are going to be a huge variety of roles within a tribe, story-teller, healers, lore-masters, hunters (of animals), the warriors who protect the people, tradesman and craftsman ..... yet it seems that amateur delves take the single role of 'pyschotic death dealer.'

A tribal character will not trust anybody outside their tribe, and this to me means that they may interact, or not, depending on situation.

Most tribals, imho, just don't need to bother with outsiders, ever. But some members of a large tribe like this will, regardless of 'trust' or not, just to support their tribe with needs that are difficult to find or make in the wastelands. How you going to find people to trade with if they are all just immediately off'd? Having the support of a larger group may make the members of an established tribe more daring, but daring can be creatively expressed in a variety of ways beyond mere 'how many neat emotes can I pump out while slaughtering another noob.'

In addition, to 'get the upper hand' means sometimes HELPING out somebody in distress, making alliances, and then milking that for all you can. Being conniving and tricky doesn't mean 'IT MOVES, FUCKING SLAUGHTER IT!'

Nomad Elves - These tribal elves would tend to have an 'established' territory, but would move around a great deal and not necessarily use their resources to protect land that they are not currently on. A nomad tribe would likely be much smaller than a established tribe that doesn't move, and their circles of trust would be much much smaller. They would also, imo, visit trading posts a little more often to barter for goods that are necessary, but probably only in large enough groups to protect themselves, their goods, and to ensure enough, ahh ... *ahem* proper trading takes place.

A nomad elf tribe, to me, may be more inclined to robbery and murder since they would be more difficult to track down, their resources wouldn't be stable as a established 'elf-tribe city' would be. A little more on the edge, with many more mouths to feed, would lead to more desperate acts. Which may also include extreme amounts of 'trusting' a stranger to get the essential trade or deal necessary to provide aid for the tribe.

Yet, killing strangers for a smaller tribe is a greater threat, simply because there are less of a tribe to provide protection when the inevitable retaliation comes.

Loner Elves These elves, for whatever reason, either don't have a tribe, or are disconnected for their tribe, or are simply wild. They would tend to be more unpredictable, having only themselves to rely upon. Fiercly independent, trusting in nothing but their own abilities, it seems to me that the loner d-elf has the greatest potential for being a-pyscho-killer, or b-unusual in the way that the elf is socially adjusted in a different way as to display some 'un-elf-like-characteristics.' Either way, it  comes down to how classy a person is with their RP, and if the ROLE is taken, or if OOC opportunities are exploited. It seems to me that, unless the elf were _BADASS_, that this type of loner would tend to run and be very isolationist and wary of EVERYTHING, most especially other d-elves.

Heh, ironic my posting this stuff considering the reputation that TarKroh had. Yet, after coming back and seeing the current d-elf mindset, it seems to me that Miami Vice video game has invaded Zalanthas. To me, desert elf = noble savage unbound by city state norms, not murderous brute.[/b]

[marko]

How fondly do I remember the Tar'Kroh... lol

To put Primalfire's point another way - One of a Desert Elf's primary focuses is survival.  Every interaction should be based on how the outcome impacts the survivability of the tribe and then the individual.

For example, raiding.  If the target is weak it is clear that raiding will improve the survivability of the tribe by providing gear, potentially water, and other resources.

But if the target is strong, part of another tribe or House, or whatever then raiding them may not make any sense.  

Attacking people blindly is silly to do as a Desert Elf even if they are part of a "raiding" tribe.  Survivability has to kept in mind at all times.  A Desert Elf isn't alone in what they do - everything they do impacts their tribe.  The loss of a Desert Elf can be a significant blow to the tribe and thus most Desert Elves would not have death wishes or take stupid chances.

Defense of territory is merely a matter of survival.  You need to protect your resources so the tribe can stay alive.  But, if protecting the territory would mean the death of the tribe... well, it's time to move on.

[Primalfire]

Another Thing ...

A desert dweller will place different value on 'items.'

Carrying around tons of useless stuff gotten in a raid makes ... no sense. Who cares if its worth 'sid? If its a burden and is useless in the desert, it gets left behind. Consider the way the aboriginies of australia live, they travel light and simply have NO USE for 90% of what civilization considers important. What kind of Outsider is really worth stealing from, when desert elves have everything they really need? Is it worth potentially losing your life, and destroying the reputation of a tribe for ... a sword, boots, belts? Things that the desert will cough up or that are easily bartered for, without putting one's tribesmate at risk of being summarily slaughtered in retribution.

Stealing can be two things, property (mostly useless for a d-elf), or knowledge or time or a personal advantage ... which is best done without the other side even knowing they are taken advantage of, the sign of true-elf skillness. Seems to me, a delf would take more pleasure in 'stealing' what is useful for that elf, which isn't always going to be physical property.

Stop thinking like greedy Westerners, and like a independent, free-willed, and mostly wild being free of ALL RULES (including concepts of property and 'needs.)

[A desert Elf]

I wasn't going to post, simply because there was no reason to. However, There are different values in all items.
Just because you played an elf 2 days ago or more, doesn't mean you know and understand all motives behind all actions about all things and can know why the other PC thought that happened to be needed.

A desert dweller will place different value on 'items.'

Stealing can be two things, property (mostly useless for a d-elf), or knowledge or time or a personal advantage.

Is it worth potentially losing your life, and destroying the reputation of a tribe for ... a sword, boots, belts?

Stop thinking like greedy Westerners, and like a independent, free-willed, and mostly wild being free of ALL RULES (including concepts of property and 'needs.)

As the other elf apart of that scene, it looked from my vantage point your were doing the very things I quoted.
I tried others ways, but as you had no tribal markings, sounded foreign, didn't know the whos or whats, looked older than dirt, you had no visible scars, etc, no point in arguing for days. If you still think I didn't try other ways, I suggest you re-look at how the scene was occuring and change your way of thinking.

[Primalfire]

Change my way of thinking? By just pointing out different views? So, your way is _the right way_, and you have no room for improvement?

My suggestion (not command) is for you change your attitude, and perhaps expand your view on a narrow interpretation of what a 'desert elf' is ...

My last examples really had alot more to do with what I had done myself and seen many other delves do over the years, and were also based on my observations of comments other people make on this board. The 'hunt-kill' approach is just, not well-rounded of the culture and peresonalities that make up a 'desert elf.' And it's evidentally a mind-set that still prevails, even in some minor tribes to the point where people ridicule their style on this board.

When playing the Tar'kroh, we used to have the simple hunt, kill, raid approach. As we, as a group of players learned to develop our elven culture, the violence aspect faded and we engaged in the game and with other players in new ways that were .. amazingly more fun, imaginative, and that ended up impacting the world in, ah, unexpected ways.

And fun is the only reason to play this game, so what can be done to improve the experience for yourself?

Armageddon became a blast when I eventually learned to take the absolutely alien aspects of a desert race into account and use them as tools for roleplaying (instead of stat or eq collecting). There are questions that can be addressed which are simply outside the normal range of thought for our OOC society.

Do you live in a desert without comforts, in a tribe where the good of the whole is more important than the individual, where food is uncertain, water is a precious resource, and life is difficult and rare? Do you have direct experience with that scenario? No, me either. But intelligent observation of details, and some research, can provide some opportunities for richer RP for yoruself and the people you interact with.

Some questions:

Why would a desert runner carry tons and tons of equipment?
Why does a elf even need 'sid if they can live off the land?
If you live off the land, what's the point in killing everything that a person comes across?
What does an elf need to live off the land, and why would they carry around more stuff than necessary?
What is territory? Thats really more of a 'round-ear' concept or an idea held by tribes in fixed locations ...
What is worth raiding for, and what cost is it worth?
How many elven lives are there in the desert, and thinking OOC, how much resources and effort would go into raising the desert elf that becomes your PC?
Did mom and dad teach you to be a murderous thug, like a round-ear, or to live off the land, to trust the tribe and to not-trust outsiders?
We don't live in tribes, what does it mean to be 'tribal?' Do tribal people run around thoughtlessly slaughtering everything? Does tribal mean 'mindless murderous thug?' Does tribal imply 'a rich culture that is unique to a certain group of people that has ... survived for a length of time for certain reasons, reasons that have alot more to do with teaching that tribe HOW TO STAY ALIVE.'
Not-trusting, what does that really mean?
What is an Outsider, what makes them outsiders, are there different degree's to Outsider-ness where different 'outsiders' are treated accordingly?

How does a person 'steal' if its not really about 'things', what is the POINT?
(thats important)
The point is, it's the GAME of stealing, which can be done for _any_ reason to engage in the game of theft and wits. There are no wits in blatant murder, what have you 'won' if you now have to watch your back all the time, what good does it do for your TRIBE to bring that kind of attention to other members, who may or not be able to defend themselves?

Anyways ...

I think what I'm trying to say is ...

Since your a dude, RP a dude.

[Anonymous]

I agree 100% with primalfire.

And just because I've said that an elf wouldn't trust an outsider immediately, that should not imply that elves won't trade with anyone outside their tribe.  It does not mean that elves won't talk to someone outside their tribe.

It means that an elf will not offer many -fair trades- to people outside their tribe.  Want some anakore claw bracers?  Then I want six inix, a honey kank, and fifty yards of good woven rope.

Furthermore, the fallacious assumption that the only way to deal with desert elves is to waltz past the "DO NOT GO HERE" skull on a pole markers and walk into their camp and sit at the bar in their main tent is moronic.  There should be established places (like oh.. Luir's for example) where people can go to interact.  A desert outpost that is "neutral" for everyone.

[Anonymous]

A desert outpost that is "neutral" for everyone.

I'm assuming here you are talking about the old Blackwing outpost.  The staff has said before on this board that the Blackwing Outpost is neutral and I believe that's part of the reason why there are echoes indicating some of the diversity in customers.

Given that the desert elf racial docs or maybe Thanas' treatise indicate that elves trust other elves less than they trust other races, the fact that you have multiple tribes all in one outpost means it's academic that other races would be allowed.

Desert elves aren't stupid territorial creatures who would want to cut off their nose to spite their face in the form of killing/running off travellers who come to the outpost and thereby lead to lost trade in the long run.

[Anonymous]

Desert elves aren't stupid territorial creatures who would want to cut off their nose to spite their face in the form of killing/running off travellers who come to the outpost and thereby lead to lost trade in the long run.

Right, but if you're hunting their lands, or you're near their -camp- (not talking about any outposts), then they WILL kill you, and be within rights doing so.

And I have no idea about any outpost.  I have been using Luir's as an example because it is a well known OOC area that fits the bill.

Ahem.