Desert elf interaction

[amoeba]

All elves are thieves, but that doesn't mean that all they are is thieves.

This reminds me of something that happened this past weekend.  I was driving through Kayenta, Arizona, deep in the heart of the Navajo/Hopi nation. So I was sitting in the McDonalds there, my daughter happily screaming through the play area tunnels when I was approached by a local boy selling trinkets.

He was selling the usual tourist stuff, beaded necklaces, now I know how desperatly poor these folks are, and how little opprotunity there is out there in the middle of nothing, so I figured I'd buy something.  I look through what he has and he says this batch of necklaces were $15. I look through a bit more and point to a strand and ask how much it was again.  He then dramaticly starts counting the strands and says this one has 4 strands so it is $20, although I know it was the same as he earlier stated for $15.  I tell him I can't afford $20, so he says I can have it for $15.  I know if I worked on him I could easily get it for under $10, but I buy it at $15.

My point here is was he a thief trying to rip off the tourist? Depends on your perspective.  From his viewpoint he was concerned with helping to provide for his family and he was more than willing to exploit a tourist's confusion if possible to better provide for his own.  His motivation was not theivery, but rather survival.   I'm sure this boy had a life other than standing around McDonalds and selling trinkets, he probably would have rather been screaming through the tubes with the other kids as well.    Our characters in the game should be no less complex.

[Pantoufle]

I disagree, particularly about the "outcast" bit. There is nothing in the elven mindset that prevents them from getting a normal job. That's what joining most clans really is: getting a job. Most elves do not have jobs working for human dominated organizations, but my feeling is that this is mostly because humans are reluctant to hire elves more than all elves flat out refusing to work for humans.

Then you obviously haven't spent much time contemplating about the elven persona.

There is nothing in the elven mindset which outright prevents them from attaining a normal job, no, but it's still not a typical act for the vast majority of elves who live in tribal communties (be they in the desert wastes or cooped in a city's alleys somewhere) that percieve non members as vastly distant.  Joining a clan means sharing a bunk with clan mates (people whom you do not know or trust).  An elf's xenophobic nature is enough to deter most from even considering employment.  This, coupled with the fact that most organizations demand lifelong employment, plus loyalty first and foremost to the clan (not your family) and you can forget about any elf wanting to take a normal job!  Remember, family is paramount to an elf's livelihood, so having some stranger tell you "I'm your boss and I'm more important than your blood" is a smack in the face for any elf.  Moreover, for a loner elf joining a clan he is reinforcing his isolation by enlisting and servicing a different race (a race which perceives elves as inferior).  An elf has nothing to gain by joining a clan.  Working for a clan means upholding the clan's image, and thus not doing sneaky elvish things (which should be the singlemost important thing to any elf).  This notion of an elf "testing" his clanmates until they become his family still makes him a freak amongst his own kind -- after all, what elf would choose human company over their own kind?  A tribeless loner elf would be more prone to team up with other elves (since they have a similar motive: sneakiness) and test them than to join some H U M A N organization.  Elves need neither official employment nor human employment to earn a living or take care of their family.

I compare city elves to Roma (real world gypsies).

You come to a stop light and see some rag-clad gypsy offering to clean your car windows with an ancient sponge in exchange for a few coins.  At the next stop light there's a gypsy wading down rows of cars offering to sell a fancy tool kit (who knows how he acquired it!) at an obscene price.  They also sift through garbage, play music at weddings, and do just about anything that doesn't require official employment to earn a living.  These are city elves.  The kind of person who sells you a fake brand name watch out of his coat pocket.  These types of people don't want normal jobs and while they're generally far from rich, they somehow manage to feed Granny and otherwise survive without a clan.  For all these reasons, clanned elves do not represent the vast majority of their race.  Yes, there are real world Roma in positions of official employment, but they represent a very small portion of their people.  I'm not suggesting, therefore, that some elves wouldn't join clans (as is represented by the few NPC clanned elves and the occasional PC clanned elf), but it's most definately far from commonplace (and I don't care if you've pulled something out of the docs which says otherwise, sheer logic dictates that this is not the case).

[spawnloser]

Slight derail, it's not 'Roma,' Pantoufle.  It's "Rom," and the Tan Muark are based off of them.

[Angela Christine]

The difference is that Rom make up a very small part of the population in any city in which they live, while elves are the second most populous race in the world.  It is likely that 1/4 or 1/3 of the population in the cities is elven.  

Some of them have jobs.  Those that have jobs are not necessarily outcasts.

Forcing all elves into iso-clans serves no purpose.


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

Slight derail, it's not 'Roma,' Pantoufle. It's "Rom," and the Tan Muark are based off of them.

I live in a country (Serbia) where Roma -- yes, Roma -- are one of the larger minority groups here.  In my native language they are called Roma and not Rom.  The Roma here, whom I am acquainted with, similarly refer to themselves as Roma.

And by the way, I can say with experience that the Tan Muark are 100% nothing like the Roma people.  Not one stinking bit.

[Pantoufle]

Forcing all elves into iso-clans serves no purpose.

Nobody's forcing them to join iso-clans (besides which I can't think of any currently open iso clan).  Heck, join a clan as an elf if it suits you, by all means!  The only point I am making is that an elf enlisting in a clan is an outsider amongst his people and a poor representation of the elven race at large.  Most elves are members of tribal families and, as such, this sort of lifestyle does not permit working for untrusting outsiders with whom you must share a bunk with.  To a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks, any fellow elf dressed in House Salarr (or any other clan) colors is a laughable phenomenon.

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers.  I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers.  I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

Yes it does.

Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans.

To throw my two cents into the mix, I would say that there are simply too many elves on Zalanthas for them to have any hope of surviving solely as vagrants and conmen.  However, while the average elf is likely to acquire an honest job, he isn't likely to stay honest while doing that job.

Getting a job can open up countless new ways for an elf to misbehave.  They can perform as an inside man for their employers heists.  They can sell information.  They can earn the trust of their coworkers and find ways to screw them over.

If all else fails getting a job provides a cloak for an elf's criminal activity, which is very useful.

As intelligent and devious as elves are, I can hardly imagine them not attempting to gain employment.

[Pantoufle]

Elves may be the second largest race on Zalanthas but that doesn't make them necessarily equally high in numbers. I might venture a guess that blacks are the second largest ethnicity in the United States, yet they still only comprise 11% of the population.

Yes it does.

Yes what does?  Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

I would say that there are simply too many elves on Zalanthas for them to have any hope of surviving solely as vagrants and conmen.

Then by your own volition the entire Labyrinth's populace cannot possibly exist, since nearly all of its residents are homeless vagrants.  In the real world today, the population is teeming with homeless, unemployed vagrants.  You probably aren't aware, therefore, that more people than not, in the world today, are poor and homeless.  Therefore, the statement "second largest race on Zalanthas" has no impact on this argument whatsoever.

Getting a job can open up countless new ways for an elf to misbehave. They can perform as an inside man for their employers heists. They can sell information. They can earn the trust of their coworkers and find ways to screw them over.

Getting a job requires having some level of trust with said employer to begin with.  I can't seem to stress enough that xenophobic people would not consider sharing bunks with strangers (of a different race, no less) just because they wanted to pull off some heist or other sneaky affair.  When you enlist in a clan, you're exposing yourself to dangers and essentially putting your life in the hands of people whom are perceived to any elf as UNTESTED OUTSIDERS.  Elves are skittish and paranoid, constantly on the alert for being robbed from by every single person they encounter.  Is it possible an elf could bypass their racial instincts and enter a clan?  Sure.  Is it likely or commonplace?  No.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

[marko]

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

This makes perfect sense to me.

Prior to 1920 the vast majority of our population in North America owned businesses.  Small, family run stuff - farms, shops, services, etc.  

Now, the vast majority of those in North America have a job.  And this is influencing how we view Armageddon and where people would be.

I agree with Pantoufle on this part.  The vast majority of elves (and likely most humans) run their own shows.  

Elves wouldn't be out there looking to work for someone else.  They'd be out there looking to work for themselves.

Anyway, as an aside, the term is Roma for the people and Rom for an individual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes what does?  Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

Please, if you have a better source of information then share it.

Then by your own volition the entire Labyrinth's populace cannot possibly exist, since nearly all of its residents are homeless vagrants.  In the real world today, the population is teeming with homeless, unemployed vagrants.  You probably aren't aware, therefore, that more people than not, in the world today, are poor and homeless.  Therefore, the statement "second largest race on Zalanthas" has no impact on this argument whatsoever.

This really isn't relevant to the discussion at hand, but since it seems to me that there are a lot of buildings in the labyrinth, I don't expect that the majority of those living there are homeless.

Getting a job requires having some level of trust with said employer to begin with.  I can't seem to stress enough that xenophobic people would not consider sharing bunks with strangers (of a different race, no less) just because they wanted to pull off some heist or other sneaky affair.  When you enlist in a clan, you're exposing yourself to dangers and essentially putting your life in the hands of people whom are perceived to any elf as UNTESTED OUTSIDERS.  Elves are skittish and paranoid, constantly on the alert for being robbed from by every single person they encounter.  Is it possible an elf could bypass their racial instincts and enter a clan?  Sure.  Is it likely or commonplace?  No.

Would an elf refuse to rent an apartment since the landlord would obviously continue to have access to the place she lives?

Would an elf refuse to buy food from someone who wasn't a member of her tribe because an outsider could concievably poison it?  Would she refuse to buy a mug of ale when she sat down in a tavern?

Would she even go to a tavern at all, a place where her natural ability to run and escape danger is nullified by the immense amount of people populating it?

Would she refuse to buy weapons from House Salarr because the merchant could give her the crappiest blade he has in his shop and end up costing her her life when it breaks?

To some extent or another, an elf has to trust outsiders.  She has to trust them if she wants to buy basic necessities.  She has to trust them if she doesn't want to live on the streets.  She has to trust them if she wants to pull off a con.

And she will trust them, not because they are worthy of her trust, but because she understands the way the world works, probably better than a human does.  She understands that her landlord isn't likely to unlock the door to her apartment at night and murder her in her sleep.  She understands that the local grocer isn't likely to poison her food.  She understands that House Salarr has built its reputation on selling high quality weapons.

She also understands that places of employment don't slaughter their own employees on a whim.  An elf would be on her guard and would take every precaution possible, but she wouldn't avoid doing it in the first place.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?

What I think is that you are drawing too many parallels from the real world and none at all from actual game documentation.  Fare well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree with Pantoufle on this part.  The vast majority of elves (and likely most humans) run their own shows.

Certainly I'd like to see far more elves and humans self-employed.  I think that having 90% of the city population working for a clan takes away something indefinable and important from the game.

I still maintain that given otherwise equal circumstances, an elf wouldn't be less likely to seek employment than a human.

[Pantoufle]

You're comparing apples with oranges.  Trusting an enormous organization of outsiders who look down upon your kind enough to live with them and trusting someone enough to buy a drink off them, or a sword, or anything else ain't the same thing.  Shit, it ain't even the same damn ballpark!

As for parelleling real world examples, it needn't be a real world example.  It's simply doing the math.  It's common sense.  Let's pretend they're martians.

Okay, you're a Martian.  Moreso than anything else in your culture, sneakiness is your singlemost driving force in life (followed only by your need for a closeknit, trusted family group).  Because you spend your every waking moment thinking how to dupe anyone who isn't part of your Martian family, you're inherantly xenophobic of others.  Now you're trying to tell me that you're going to fly to Earth and team up with some complete strangers who have completely different customs and beliefs from you, not to mention they look down upon Martians just so you can pull off a few sneaky stunts?  I'm sorry, I find that highly unlikely.

It seems that you're more interested in merely winning an argument than deducing rational logic to conclude this discussion.  The lifestyle of an elf -- based off all the documentation available -- is not very compatible with clan life.  It requires them to cast aside many of their beliefs, customs, and traditions ... and for what?  To fool someone?  To help feed Granny?  Why go to such extremes when they can do the same by functioning as a good little elf, living as an elf should?

[Pantoufle]

The real problem, I suspect, isn't accepting the fact that few elves would ever consider joining a human organization, it's that by admitting this it's quite clearly the case they must face being unclanned and potentially isolated form the playerbase.  

Elves are different from other races in that they are all universally tribal.  Even orphaned elves have a tribal mentality and it's not likely they'll ever satisfy their need for closeknit unity amongst a human merchant house.  They'll always feel that they don't belong, they'll always be looked down upon by their colleagues and they'll always be limited with their ability to promote.

The players of city elves should be looking to do the following:

- Take advantage of the existing open city elf tribe.  It's there for a reason.

- Team up with other city elf PCs, put them through tests of trust and formulate your own tribal street gang.

- Conjure up an interesting virtual background for your elf, detailing what his small tribal family is like.  Try to get involved in plotlines while respecting your background and keeping in mind that these virtual family members mean more to you than all others.  There's no reason you can't interact with everyone and anyone.  There's no reason you have to sit around all day emoting with virtual NPC family members.  Simply use your background as a tool to involve yourself in plots.  There are countless independant unclanned characters in game, from hunters to rogue magickers, and they all function just fine without ever joining a clan.  City elves can do the same and still be heavily involved with the player base.

[Delirium]

I think an elf's tribe is more important to them than their pride in being wily and sneaky, though it is a very, very close second.  Why?  Because an elf would not do something sneaky if they thought it would harm their tribe.  An elf without a tribe could very well become either a tribe of one - very lonely, but very possible - or, alternately, rigorously test out people who might make a good replacement "tribe".

Elves do not trust other elves more than they trust humans - in fact, I would go so far as to say they probably trust other elves less.  Elves have a lot of pride, but it's a self-centered pride.  They are not as self-conscious as, say, a half-elf or a human might be.  They will not care as much what an elf outside their tribe thinks of them so long as they have good standing and respect with those they consider their tribe.  This makes it rare, but not impossible and not bad roleplay at all, for an elf to be a part of a predominantly human clan - especially if it's a clan in which you can swear for life.  Those lifesworn people would become the elf's new tribe, but he would still hold onto his own racial traits - his elven pride, his bent toward conning and trickery, his refusal to ride - however, those traits would, if the elf was truly loyal, be put toward the well-being of himself and his family.  

This actually makes an elf one of the most loyal and useful people a clan can have around, IF the elf comes to think of them as his tribe.

So - rare, but not impossible.  

I think Pantfluffy is going a little too far with the xenophobic and thieving mentality.  It is a major trait but it does not prevent them from being a part of society and living a "normal" life, it only means that they are far less trustworthy than your average group of humans.  

Lastly, there is the simple consideration that it is extremely difficult for a loner to make it on Zalanthas, which is something I think any elf will understand even better than most humans.  If they don't stumble on a group of elves that will take them in (and those elves are probably out to screw them even worse than any human), and they meet a group of humans or mixed races that, gradually, they begin to like and accept, why wouldn't they consider throwing their lot in with them?  Not in a year, probably not in two, but over the course of a long time, an elf may just decide that he wants to give them the ultimate test and join forces with them.

[Anonymous]

Yes what does? Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

I see a popular trend: players completely disregard documentation, which is why Templars and Nobles continue to spar commoners. Stop it! STOP IT! If you believe it's outdated, check with the staff, don't make your own (probably highly erroneous) assumptions. The documentation is there for a reason, it's there for your reference as a detailed information source on Zalanthas.

The players of city elves should be looking to do the following:

- Take advantage of the existing open city elf tribe. It's there for a reason.

- Team up with other city elf PCs, put them through tests of trust and formulate your own tribal street gang.

You suggest ignoring your character's persona, motivation, behavior, to follow an OOC priniciple. That is ridiculous, none of those statements actually take into consideration the character himself/herself.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[spawnloser]

Pantoufle, I would like to know what you base your opinion that the Tan Muark and Rom/Roma are nothing alike?  I actually have seen a decent amount of the Muarki in game and their philosophy, as well as knowing much of the traditional Rom/Roma philosophy.  I am Rom (granted, not by culture but by blood) and my grandmother taught me a goodly amount when I was young, as much as she thought safe (and to explain that last phrase would be to go into too muich of my family's history, so will not be done).  The old ways and the Muark ways are more similar than you may think.

That said, I still think that people playing city elves should make use of the clans already documented.  Contact your friendly neighboorhood staff for the area for details on whether there are documented tribes there.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves do not trust other elves more than they trust humans - in fact, I would go so far as to say they probably trust other elves less.  Elves have a lot of pride, but it's a self-centered pride.  They are not as self-conscious as, say, a half-elf or a human might be.  They will not care as much what an elf outside their tribe thinks of them so long as they have good standing and respect with those they consider their tribe.  This makes it rare, but not impossible and not bad roleplay at all, for an elf to be a part of a predominantly human clan - especially if it's a clan in which you can swear for life.  Those lifesworn people would become the elf's new tribe, but he would still hold onto his own racial traits - his elven pride, his bent toward conning and trickery, his refusal to ride - however, those traits would, if the elf was truly loyal, be put toward the well-being of himself and his family.  

This actually makes an elf one of the most loyal and useful people a clan can have around, IF the elf comes to think of them as his tribe.

The main difference between a human clan and an elven tribe is that a human clan is probably larger, will accept new members who may or may not be loyal to the clan, and usually isn't focused on conducting activities that are of interest to an elf.

An elf can never feel at ease in a human clan and accept them as members of her tribe because their are too many of them and an elf would never be satisfied until she was certain there was no chance that anyone in the entire clan would ever think about betraying her under any circumstances.  Giving everyone in an entire clan a test of loyalty is an exercise in futility.

Furthermore, elves do have their pride.  If they were to find a new tribe, then it would be a tribe in which they could conduct raiding, mugging, crime, cheating, or whatever other activity they feel comfortable with.  Since an elf is a very prideful individual, they would never concede to associate themselves with people who are unwilling or unable to steal.

[Pantoufle]

Good retort, EvilRoeSlade.

I find most posters here haven't spent a great deal of time considering all of the consequences of what the elven persona entails.

Elves know other elves are trying to cheat them, yes, but a tribeless elf will still seek the company of his/her own kind over a human.  To an elf, other elves have similar motives, they also speak the same language and share the same culture (humans do not).  You can never test an entire clan and, besides, even if you could, that clan has an alien culture to you which most definately does not share your particular views.

However we rank which attribute is highest for elves (tribalism over stealing, stealing over tribalism, pride over stealing, etc.), theft/sneakiness is one of an elf's foremost cultural traits.  As such, it should always be taken into account when playing an elf just as a dwarf's focus should be taken into account when playing one.

[Pantoufle]

Furthermore, elves do have their pride. If they were to find a new tribe, then it would be a tribe in which they could conduct raiding, mugging, crime, cheating, or whatever other activity they feel comfortable with. Since an elf is a very prideful individual, they would never concede to associate themselves with people who are unwilling or unable to steal.

Exactly.

Remember, theft is art to elvekind.  Why on earth would an elf choose to make a family amongst people who neither condone theft nor percieve it as an artform?

[Angela Christine]

Meh.  I still don't see why an elf getting a job would become an outcast.  Many elves wouldn't want to work for a big clan, I get that.  But there is nothing that indicates other elves should shun and despise an elf that does join a clan.  Why would elves not of his tribe care one way or the other how he makes his 'sids?  Getting a job doesn't turn you into a halfbreed or a defiler.




Elves can be xenophobic, they can have fear/hate of outsiders and strangers.  But the insiders are "everyone in my tribe" not "everyone of my race" and the outsiders are "everyone not from my tribe" not "non-elves".  There is no brotherhood of elves.  There are only People of my Tribe and Everyone else.

Good = my tribe
Bad = outsiders


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

Meh. I still don't see why an elf getting a job would become an outcast.

Though 'Outcast' might be a stretch, he would still most definately be laughed at by his superior counterparts, those elves who live in tribes and tribal gangs.  I think most elves would view him or her as a sell out, someone who can't tough it up amongst his own kind.  No elves aren't brotherly, but they still all speak a common language and because of their love of stealing they would likely choose to be around one another so they can stay in touch with their cultural roots.  Separate groups of elves in the Labyrinth, for example, still live amongst one another and have their own district, even though they don't trust the other street tribes: they want to test their skills on one another, after all.  Behaving as an elf amongst humans is exceedingly difficult to do, behaving as an elf amongst other tribal elf groups (despite that you passionately distrust them) is.

Many elves wouldn't want to work for a big clan, I get that. But there is nothing that indicates other elves should shun and despise an elf that does join a clan.

Sure there is.  Common sense.  I don't think they'd outright "shun" him, but as suggested above, he's essentially an inferior specimen.  Imagine growing up in the slums of a black neighborhood all your life.  What would you think about another black who chooses to live in a predominantly white society, dressing up and living as a "white man"?  Now imagine what an African tribesman would think of another tribesman choosing to go live amongst a white-collared community.  I think you'd be shouting "SELL OUT" and any number of derogatory terms.  

Elves do not possess a sense of brotherliness or comeraderie amongst all elven kind, and if you're suggesting that I've said so you're putting words in my mouth.  However, each tribe has one language: Allundean.  Each tribe, loner, or gang shares the same cultural roots as the next: theft.  What unites all elves?  Their love of thievery as an artform.  They want to perform it on one another, of course.  It's a challenge to them.  Humans don't respect this but other elves expect it.  Many people here are saying an elf is likely to trust a human over another elf because he knows an elf is out to rob him whereas a human may not.  Nonsense.  He's going to be more inclined to hang out with the elf (remember, there are elven communities after all) so that he can impress and compete with the outsider elf.  In the urban wilderness a human is prey to an elf whereas another elf is competition, an unfriendly fellow predator who is expecting you to show your worth and talent (before he shows you first!)

This notion of an elf treating his clan as a surrogate tribe is pure rubbish.  No clan can offer what a tribe, essential for elven prosperity, does.  If you spend a significant amount of time absorbing the roleplaying documentation on elves, you begin to realize real quick how important thievery is to an elf and the environment necessary to live/behave as an elf.

[Larrath]

I disagree with Pantoufle on several things.
Elves see stealing as an art and a test of courage, but in no way does this mean elves must rely solely on this art for survival.  Doing so is admirable, but it's also next to impossible for a PC to do if you took away their newbie coins.

Elves don't really care about being seen as 'sell outs'.  In fact, though elves are extremely proud, most of them don't give half a thought to random elves from other tribes and what they say about them.  The only kind of an elf that could be called a 'sell-out' would be one that betrayed his tribe, one of the few atrocities in the tribal elven lifestyle.  Elves care about their clanmembers and about their friends, they don't give a damn about other elves.
In fact, elven tribes usually spend more time fighting against other elven tribes than they do fighting human or gith tribes.  This is also true, at least to a level, in the Labyrinth.  The Eastside is full of warring factions.

Elves don't really have that thing where they 'test their skills out' on others - if you steal from an elf and he catches you, unless that elf is powerful enough to find the concept entertaining, you're probably going to get stabbed.  Remember that elves have very little if any personal property, everything belongs to the tribe.  Stealing from an elf means stealing from the tribe, and stealing from the tribe means you die.  The elf might also feel slighted by the fact he was stolen from, leading him into revenge.

Behaving as an elf among humans is very difficult, but behaving as an elf among a tribe of strangers (without attempting to become part of the tribe) is impossible because that elf would never be trusted with anything, being eternally suspected of being someone's spy and a traitor.

There are quite a few elf NPCs that work in various clans.  Fact is that an elf is fully capable of finding a clan, a few key people, and turning it into their tribe.  This is because elves think in terms of tribes - a solitary elf is a tribe of one, not "an elf".  This is also very common among magicker elves.

An elf will not go to an elven stranger and start bragging about the thefts he's pulled off.  That's what a half-elf would do - a true elf would go to his own tribe.  Elf strangers don't hang out together, and the fact is that no elf wants to get stolen from because it's shameful.  A part of the successful steal is also involved in humiliating the victim, which helps though proud elves.

About the sell-out thing, I don't think those successful multi-millionaire black rappers are considered sell-outs in most black slum neighbourhoods.

Elves think in terms of clans - some elves will accept a clan with humans in it, others will not.  Some elves would only agree to belong in a clan where all members--regardless of race--had blue eyes or a connection to any Elemental plane or whatever else.

[Pantoufle]

Elves see stealing as an art and a test of courage, but in no way does this mean elves must rely solely on this art for survival. Doing so is admirable, but it's also next to impossible for a PC to do if you took away their newbie coins.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said elves rely on theft as part of their livelihood, on the contrary I think I've done a good job at demonstrating that it's the exact opposite.  That elves steal as an artform, not for survival.

Elves don't really care about being seen as 'sell outs'. In fact, though elves are extremely proud, most of them don't give half a thought to random elves from other tribes and what they say about them. The only kind of an elf that could be called a 'sell-out' would be one that betrayed his tribe, one of the few atrocities in the tribal elven lifestyle. Elves care about their clanmembers and about their friends, they don't give a damn about other elves.

Some might care, some might not.  Either way, that won't stop the tribal elves from laughing at him.  It's clear you haven't spent time absorbing the roleplaying section on elves.  Elves view thievery as an artform and each one aspires to be a master artist.  In a society of artists, an artist who chooses to live away from other artists is, well, not an artist.  Even if the elf who goes against the grain of his society doesn't care if he's laughed at, that still doesn't stop him from being a laughable subject.

In fact, elven tribes usually spend more time fighting against other elven tribes than they do fighting human or gith tribes. This is also true, at least to a level, in the Labyrinth. The Eastside is full of warring factions.

Says who?  Elves in the Labyrinth likely spend more time merchanting in the black markets than warring between rival gangs.  Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

There are quite a few elf NPCs that work in various clans. Fact is that an elf is fully capable of finding a clan, a few key people, and turning it into their tribe. This is because elves think in terms of tribes - a solitary elf is a tribe of one, not "an elf".

I'd like to make fully aware that I never once said an elf would never, under any circumstances, join a clan.  In fact, I clearly indicated otherwise.  An elf joining humans and living amongst humans is still living outside of his cultural society.  Remember, he's a black man choosing to live in a white society.  That may not be impossible or unlikely, but it's still not "the norm".

About the sell-out thing, I don't think those successful multi-millionaire black rappers are considered sell-outs in most black slum neighbourhoods.

No, but non multi-millionaire black rappers who live away from blacks in a white society probably are!  Those elves who live in a human clan are (most likely) neither millionaires nor famous.

[Larrath]

Says who?  Elves in the Labyrinth likely spend more time merchanting in the black markets than warring between rival gangs.  Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

Actually, I played a 'rinthi elf for a couple of months and interacted with both these tribes and have seen a fair share.  I've also got a very good compliment on my roleplay as that city elf.

I have to go, will get back to this thread later.

[Pantoufle]

I've also got a very good compliment on my roleplay as that city elf.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with this dicussion.

The point is this.   Elves don't all share one common language, the same basic cultural traditions (thievery, tribalism, pride) and often exist in elven commuinities for no reason whatsoever.  If it was "normal" for elves to become part of human organizations, then each tribe would have their own language and they would all live vastly apart from one another.  Half-giants don't have a racial tongue and that's not because of their lack of intelligence, it's because of their lack of cultural unity.  The Tan Muark don't all speak Bendune because some of them leave their home to go work for outsiders, they speak it because there exists some level of cultural ties amongst them, even within the different families of the Tan Muark.  So is the case with elves who, while fiercly distrusting of non-tribemates, still tend to (note I did not say 'must') coexist amongst one another.

For the last time, no, an elf joining a clan is not unrealistic.  But he does not represent the norm for his race, who have an ingrained set of basic traditions and share the same language.