Desert elf interaction

[Anonymous]

The point is this. Elves don't all share one common language, the same basic cultural traditions (thievery, tribalism, pride) and often exist in elven commuinities for no reason whatsoever. If it was "normal" for elves to become part of human organizations, then each tribe would have their own language and they would all live vastly apart from one another. Half-giants don't have a racial tongue and that's not because of their lack of intelligence, it's because of their lack of cultural unity. The Tan Muark don't all speak Bendune because some of them leave their home to go work for outsiders, they speak it because there exists some level of cultural ties amongst them, even within the different families of the Tan Muark. So is the case with elves who, while fiercly distrusting of non-tribemates, still tend to (note I did not say 'must') coexist amongst one another.

For the last time, no, an elf joining a clan is not unrealistic. But he does not represent the norm for his race, who have an ingrained set of basic traditions and share the same language.

A quote from the language documentation:

The elvish speech is known as Allundean to its speakers. It was first recorded as a language in during Year 70 of the Dragon's Reign, during that time when the Dragon's servants collected vast reserves of knowledge of the world for the [now lost] Library which he was intent on constructing. It is likely that Allundean existed for one or two centuries before that time as a complete language. Before that time, the elvish tribes were too small and too far apart on the outskirts of the Empire of Man for any linguistic conventions to be established.
With the Dragon's arrival in the Known World and the subsequent and speedy fall of the Empire, the elvish tribes banded together for a short while (perhaps two hundred years). While closely grouped, the tribal tongues grew more and more related, eventually becoming what is now recognized as Allundean.
This language shares the peculariarity of Bendune and Cavilish in that seven vowels are used for speaking, but no vowels are used in the written form of the language.

As you can see, Elves lived in isolated clans (and therefore possess a tendency to do so, irregardless)  for a much longer period of time than their united association. True, it was enough for the language to evolve into one concrete form, but certainly this evidence weakens your argument.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Pantoufle]

Documentation is not the end all, be all of an argument (as so many posters seem to think so).  It is not the 10 Commandments.  It is not inscribed in unerasable stone tablets.  There are no fascists whipping players who dare to correct a mistake, inconsistancy, or contradiction within documentation (though clearly there are people who would like to do that).

Finding one single vague extract from an equally vague help file does not compete with largescale documentation, particularly when whatever sentance you're quoting was written 10+ real year ago whereas other documents may be more up to date with today's standards.  Allow me to expound on my reasoning for you.

Example Number 1.

Before that time, the elvish tribes were too small and too far apart on the outskirts of the Empire of Man for any linguistic conventions to be established.

Firstly, this was written long before the notion of the elven persona had even been established.  It's extremely unlikely that whomever wrote it (now over a decade ago) had stopped to consider the intricacies of elves, especially since those intricacies hadn't even been created yet.  This demonstrates the dangers of worshipping documentation as though it were an absolute.  You will innevitably prove yourself wrong in doing so.  Here's a fantastic example of why not to overanalyze help files and documents below.

One example of using documentation just to win an argument is this.  I could win the whole debate by simply quoting from help race_elf, which reads:

Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

There.  You all read it in black and white, boys and girls.  There's no denying it.  City elves are either members of street tribes or they lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty whatsoever.  Black and white, just like you all seem to want it.  There's no option for joining a clan and treating them as a surrogate tribe according to this documentation.  But you and I both know that this isn't the case.  Why?  Because we don't observe every single minutiae of trivia within help files and documents as holy scripture without any room for interpreation whatsostinkingever.

Now for Example Number 2.  Are you ready?

Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft. Imagine the great respect given for a prodigy of sculpting in human cultures. Think of the great pieces of art that you are familiar with, and how the name of the artist that crafted them has survived the centuries. Now imagine if everyone was a sculptor. Everyone in the whole world wanted to be a sculptor. Everyone loved sculpture. Everyone was jealous of the better sculptors, and got self-worth because of worse sculptors, and sculpture is how you defined your society. Now try to imagine how much esteem would be given to a great sculptor. That is how it is with theft among elves.

This kind of statement is profound.  It's also compelling evidence that elven society exists (note my use of bold within the quotation).  Societies don't exist without the mass (i.e., most) of a certain people following and practicing a set of traditions.  Elven thiefliness is not instinct, it's culture.  It's tradition.  It's passed on from one generation to the next, from one elf raised within a society that has cultures and traditions to pass on in the first place.  Joe Shmoe Elf who has decided for whatever reason to join House Whomever, swear allegience to and live evermore amongst this predominantly human organization is unlikely to successfully pass on the culture and traditions of his race since his children will not be reared in an elven society.  The keypoint here is that without a SOCIETY, culture and tradition cannot persist.  I don't give a rat's ass what one individual sentance from the help file on Allundean says about the ancient history of elves, especially since that comment cannot possibly begin to compare to the compelling evidence from the Elvish Roleplaying Index.  Elvish culture exists, you cannot deny that.  And if you're practicing somuch as rudimentary logic you'll draw the same conclusion that in order for said culture to exist, a large majority (if not most) of its populace must be living amongst one another rather than off joining clans working for other races.

[Anonymous]

I wasn't trying to attack -you- Pantoufle; I simply wanted to point out that the elven race (as a united force) was only around for a very brief period of time (200 years).

In addition, a city-elf by definition belongs to a city, and is part of a tribe already - be it Allanak, Tuluk, etc. Therefore, it is clear that elves are already immersed in a human community of which they are a part (this chiasm differentiates between d-elves and city elves). As such, it is not a vast stretch of the imagination to indicate that an elf (for the most part) would not object to joining a human-run House/clan/etc, seeing as they are already a part of a mixed tribe in a manner.

And I never meant to dissolve your argument, as I stated that it -weakens- your argument (which is less than invalidating it).

I would love to hear more on your thoughts, but instead of dismissing the Documentation entirely, I would like you to interpret it. As such, for instance, I can interpret from

Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

- since the documentation does not indicate whether the tribe is elven or human or otherwise, it can be inferred that city elves can participate in -any- tribe.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Angela Christine]

It's clear you haven't spent time absorbing the roleplaying section on elves.

Based off what are you coming up with this answer besides a vaguery in the help file which probably wasn't highly considered when written now decades ago?

Firstly, this was written long before the notion of the elven persona had even been established. It's extremely unlikely that whomever wrote it (now over a decade ago) had stopped to consider the intricacies of elves, especially since those intricacies hadn't even been created yet.

I find most posters here haven't spent a great deal of time considering all of the consequences of what the elven persona entails.

Then you obviously haven't spent much time contemplating about the elven persona.

You know what?  I have contemplated the elven persona, and I still disagree with you.  I find it a little insulting that you think anyone and anything that doesn't share your view of elves doesn't understand the elven persona or hasn't considered it deeply enough.  People can understand the material and still come to different conclusions.  It is ok to agree to disagree, you don't have to insist that people who don't agree are lacking in some way.

I believe that elves (normal elves with tribes and everything) can join multi-racial organizations.  NPC elves are not all independants, some of them clearly work in multi-racial organizations.  There is no reason why all other elves would consider those elves outcasts or laughing stocks.  Elves clearly are not that isolationist, or they would be living in some distant hidey-hole like halflings do.  Many city dwelling elves are somewhat integrated into mainstream, multi-racial society.


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

I wasn't trying to attack -you- Pantoufle; I simply wanted to point out that the elven race (as a united force) was only around for a very brief period of time (200 years).

Yeah I know, nor am I attacking you.  But I don't think we need assume elves were ever a united force.  Indeed, elves cannot be unified, wholly, due to their tribal nature.  For example, an elf would never seek to erect a city.  A village for the tribe, sure.  A city, no way.  I'll touch on this more later on.  As for whether elves were once so far apart that they led completely separate lives, speaking different languages, well, this begs the question how on earth all elves conveniently share the same basic customs then.  For example, the Elvish Roleplaying Index also says the following:

To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Now, this isn't a biological certainty - but rather a social standard that has been very deeply ingrained in all elves

If most elves aren't choosing to live amongst one another, be they in the Warrens of Tuluk, the Labyrinth, or the desert wastes, then how exactly is it that every single elf, without exception, has this mentality so "deeply ingrained" in them?

In addition, a city-elf by definition belongs to a city, and is part of a tribe already - be it Allanak, Tuluk, etc.

A city-state does not constitute a tribe nor does it meet the demands for an elf's lifestyle.  It's likely most elves aren't even patriotic, instead perceiving themselves as oppresed victims of the "system".  The reason elves are tribal in the first place is because they are thieves.  If you spend your whole life looking to rob others you desperately need a communal group with whom you can trust.  Therefore, a tribe cannot be overly large in size, else the level of trust begin to break down.

since the documentation does not indicate whether the tribe is elven or human or otherwise, it can be inferred that city elves can participate in -any- tribe.

Again unlikely.  Anything's possible, but this would not explain how elves succeed in having such rich and strong cultural traditions the world over.  An elf living amongst non-elves who do not share elven customs is not a fitting "tribe" for this reason.

And another interesting point to consider is that city elves do not begin the game with 100% Sirihish.  This suggests either a) it's a misperception which needs to be corrected or b) elves TYPICALLY grow up amongst elves.  I envision city elves to be living in communities comparable to Little Italy or Chinatown.  They most certainly integrate amongst the other races (they have no choice), but at the end of the day their home is with their own kind.

[Anonymous]

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. But this pride is not something that simply springs from their distrust of outsiders of their sense of tribal community. All elves have a solid genetic disposition to be extremely proud, it is something that cannot be ignored. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

A final note on thievery must be made: an elf would never steal from a tribemate! As mentioned above, an elf identifies entirely with their tribe, it would make no sense at all for them to steal from it. Theft from a tribemate would be considered an immense crime among elves.

From those two passages (out of the role-playing documentation of elves), I may infer that the elves are genetically predisposed to be proud. What prevents them from stealing from another member of their tribe? The tribal mentality and the genetic predisposition permit the elf to conclude: I = Superior, also allows them to equate We = Superior (in terms of the tribe). As such, an elf does not steal from a member of their tribe as a result of a thought process that innately informs them of the equality of his/her tribe (as well as equating it with the 'self' with the 'self-image: it makes little sense to steal from yourself). On the other hand, an elf would readily steal from anyone NOT part of their tribe (be it an elf or a human).

In addition, we are focusing on this facet of the elven persona:

Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Elves without a tribe - what would they do? Would they rather join an elven tribe or a human tribe?

Similarly, elves see anyone not of their tribe as being a complete outsider. This extends even to other elves and other elven tribes. While the history or philosophy of your tribe may indicate a certain respect for certain outsider groups - particularly other tribes... this is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason why an elf would feel any closer to an elf from another tribe than they would to a human or dwarf. Indeed, elven tribes war among each other as much, or more, than they war with other races.

The above clearly indicates (also from the role-playing documentation) that elves make no distinction between a human or an elven tribe. The reason? I indicated it in the beginning: an elf does not trust (and is not loyal to) any individual (regardless of race) that is not intrinsically equal to the elf's self-image (either the tribe, in a tribal elf or him/herself, in a tribeless elf). The source of this intrinsic equality arrives out of their genetic disposition. In addion, one can also understand that an elf would only steal from one inferior to him/herself (or the tribe) and never from anyone inherently equal to the self-image.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Synthesis]

AC:
The only NPC elves I've ever seen belonging to any particular large, primarily human organization are the ones in the Byn, and there is supposedly a very good story behind that, if you ever care to find out.

Hmm, Kurac also, now that I think about it...but again, there's a good IC reason for that, as well.

Keep in mind though that these are very small exceptions to the rule.

Most human organizations with any sort of respectable facade to maintain wouldn't even consider openly hiring an elf, to begin with.  I think the elf's personal desire to join a human organization (whatever the justification) would play a secondary role to that primary consideration.

I'm not going to weigh in on the rest, because I think both sides have said their piece.  Absent any sort of staff clarification on the psychology of the elven race, we're not going to get any further, at this point.

Edited to add:

I lied.

Dirr:

Given that an elf makes no distinction between elf and non-elf when he is already a member of a tribe, we cannot draw the conclusion that he still would not make that distinction when he is -not- a member of a tribe.  These are two very different situations, and you would have to have more than a few lines of documentation to support that kind of assertion.  I mean, if you have a good -reason-, fundamentally premised on the documentation, that an elf would continue not to distinguish between elf and non-elf, let's hear it.  But I think it's rather bold to simply assume that such a psychologically disastrous situation (for an elf) as the lack of a tribe would have no effect on the rest of his personality.

[Pantoufle]

I'm not being deliberately insulting towards you, Angela Christine.  But I don't think this topic is a matter of opinion, rather, of irrifutible fact.  If you read the documentation and let the facts lead you, I don't see how anyone can possibly come to any other conclusion.  In my mind, it's that obvious.  Let's just make sure we all know what conclusions I'm talking about here.  

I'll repeat for a third time now I have not indicated that an elf would not join a clan or that to join one is unrealistic.  I only said that they do not represent the norm for their race.  Just as a Red Storm Villager living in Allanak does not represent the norm for residents of his home or an escaped mul does not represent the norm for his otherwise enslaved species (I may be wrong on that last one but you get the gist from my example).  All I'm saying is that I think more elves would tend to stick together than not.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Very interesting points you make Dirr.  But if the elven persona is instinctive, then there is without a doubt massive contradictions within the documentation (which is certainly a possibility).  "Deeply ingrained", for example, suggests you were raised with a set of beliefs, rather than actually inheriting some gentic predisposition.  Regardless, I don't think every aspect of the elven persona (stealing, tribalism, pride) are instinctive, each and every one.

[Angela Christine]

AC:
The only NPC elves I've ever seen belonging to any particular large, primarily human organization are the ones in the Byn, and there is supposedly a very good story behind that, if you ever care to find out.

Hmm, Kurac also, now that I think about it...but again, there's a good IC reason for that, as well.

Keep in mind though that these are very small exceptions to the rule.

If I remember correctly there is, or was, an NPC elf working in a stable.  I believe there was an NPC mul working in the same stable complex.  Does the elf own the stable?  Probably not.  Does an elven tribe own the stable?  Again, probably not.  If they do own the stable, do they also own the mul and breed their own mounts?  Maybe.

Either the elf works for the owner of the stable, or else the elf/tribe is a fairly prosperous, pillar-of-the-community type small buisnessman.  Er, buisnessperson.  Either way he is integrated into mainstream society and holds a position of considerable trust.  That doesn't mean that he isn't also a thief.


Elves rarely join the coded clans.  That is fantastic.  Most coded clans don't want to openly hire elves anyway.  I think elves do form long-term buisness relationships with people outside their own tribe.  Sometimes those relationships are between two or more entire tribes.  Sometimes it might be between an entire elven tribe and a multi-racial organization.  Sometimes it they are between a particular elf and another individual.  Occasionally that relationship will include an elf joining a coded clan.

There is no reason for other elves to hold an employed elf in contempt.  No reason for them to laugh at an employed elf.  No reason for an employed elf to be an outcast.  The elf has formed a long-term buisness relationship with people outside his clan, there is nothing wrong with that.


Angela Christine

[Rindan]

I think people are confusing the coded clans with the real organizations that exist in game.  95% of the coded clans are rich and powerful organizations.  Most organizations in Allanak are neither rich nor powerful.  Why would these organizations be inclined to hire an elf?  They will happily hire an elf for the exact same reason why people hire poor uneducated immigrants.  They are cheaper.  

Humans will very clearly fetch hire wages because they are more trusted and more culturally similar to those who have the money to offer wages.  This is going to result in some basic supply and demand actions.  The wages that elves will be able to get will drop, while human wages will go up.  The reason why you hire an elf is as plain as day.  You don't need to pay them as much.  Might they try and steal from you or screw your customers?  Maybe, but whatever they steal better be worth more then steady wages as they will be fired and maybe even beat up and robbed by militia or some other enterprising organizations.  I know if I hired elves I would make it a habbit to pay the militia a few 'sid to do something they naturally enjoy to those who screwed me, beating the piss out of elves.

As for elves, what incentive do they have to work for humans and under other elves?  Screw elven culture, a fellow has to eat.  Art and culture come second to filling your belly.  An elf thinks of stealing as an art, that doesn't make them a kleptomaniac who steals when they are obviously going to get caught and punished for it. Besides, working in many places gives plenty of opportunity to "steal" without endangering your steady job.  You need to remember the word "steal" is a relative term.  Stealing for an elf could be as simply as being lazy and doing less work the others.  Stealing could mean hampering competitors through under handed methods and stealing their customers.  Hell, I imagine an elf makes a damn good store keeper (especially in the bartering driven world of Zalanthas) as the thought of selling something for its true value just kills them.  In fact, I imagine elves are damn good business men in general.  

The "stealing" part of elven society is not at odds with human values.  Humans only get pissed off when stolen from, not when elves steal from other people.  If an elven bartender sells off information he overheard or charges tribals and foreigners who don't know prices a few extra 'sid for a drink, the owner doesn't care so long as he gets his cut.  Elves are almost made from the open regulation free economy of Allanak and Tuluk.  Hell, elves would do just fine as a CEO in modern day America, merrily planning out strategy to wreck rival corporations and leverage their spot in the market place.  Having an elf in your organization makes a lot of sense.  Who better to sit around planning ways to "steal" customers from rival organizations then an elf?  Let your elven employees practice their art, just make sure that they practice their art in a way to benefit you.

Finally we come to the "us Vs them mentality" of elves.  In this regards, I imagine that people are very correct in saying that it would be damn hard for a tribal desert elf to work for a human organization.  For city elves, tribal or otherwise, I imagine this is much less of a problem.  First off, we need to consider the tribal structure inside of Allanak.  'rinth tribes are a poor example because the 'rinth is more like the desert then it is like a city.  In the 'rinth, tribes and the human equivalent (gangs) make sense, and this is exactly how things are ordered.  

Southside though in Allanak proper (or Tuluk), I imagine that elven society looks much different.  While elves would still be in tribes, they would act more like close knit extended families.  The stereotypical Italian families that lead to the rise of the Mafia in the US run sort of like an elven tribe.  Within this family almost everyone works.  A family business might be ideal, but it might not be practical.  A family business is very unlikely to be able to support the 50+ people that might make up an elven tribe.  People need jobs or they are going to starve.

I picture a city elf tribe as having a family business or a set of family businesses that tries to employ as much of the tribe as possible.  The harsh reality is that no family business is likely to make enough money.  So, in addition to a family business that everyone might have a hand in, almost everyone probably also works.  They operate as a tribe in the social sense, but when it comes to work probably can't all work together.  For a city elf tribe, family would be priority number one, and if that meant getting a job to support your uncle that is trying to start a family business, you would get a job.  The tribe is a social structure, not necessarily an economic structure.

If you want to see what a city elf tribe looks like, I think My Big Fat Greek Wedding is probably as close as you will see in humans.  Some of that huge Greek family worked on family businesses.  Some of them worked outside of the family business.  More importantly though, they were utterly obsessed with family.  They gather as a large group whenever possible.  They might not live in the same house, but they visit each other constantly.  They help each other out and made sure that everyone has something to do and is well fed.  Nothing happens within the family without EVERYONE knowing about it.

I think people are too hung up on the economics of elven tribes, especially when talking about city elves.  Tribes are social structures first and foremost.  Survival of the tribe comes first, socialization of the tribe comes second, and perfection of art comes last.  That isn't to say that theft isn't important in elven society, but it sure as hell isn't going to interfere with priority number one, which is survival of the tribe.  If an elf keeps getting caught stealing from his employer and getting fired from his job, you better damn well believe he will get a good talking to for being so clumsy and putting his art above the collective.  I imagine such an elf would be pressed by his tribe to keep his hands off the goods and simply make money the 'honest' way until he learns how to be a better thief.  

Being an elf doesn't mean you have to be a stupid anti-social kleptomaniac and screw your steady source of income.  When considering elves, especially city elves, you need to remember that tribes are SOCIAL structures and not always economic structures.  You also need to keep in mind that theft is art and culture.  Art and culture doesn't come before your tribe or a full belly.  Finally, you can steal without being stupid.  Stealing from the people who keep your belly full is stupid.  Elves  make up a large portion of the population and (except in the 'rinth) are not segrigated from the rest the populace.  Elves clearly are a functional part of society that can do more then spam pick pocket and speak to no one outside of their tribe.

[Anonymous]

I'll repeat for a third time now I have not indicated that an elf would not join a clan or that to join one is unrealistic. I only said that they do not represent the norm for their race. Just as a Red Storm Villager living in Allanak does not represent the norm for residents of his home or an escaped mul does not represent the norm for his otherwise enslaved species (I may be wrong on that last one but you get the gist from my example). All I'm saying is that I think more elves would tend to stick together than not. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pantoufle's statement is correct is we're looking at the species as a whole. However, if look strictly at TRIBELESS CITY elves, it does NOT hold true based on the FACTS  provides in the ROLE-PLAYING DOCUMENTATION OF ZALANTHAS (I am citing it AGAIN):

Similarly, elves see anyone not of their tribe as being a complete outsider. This extends even to other elves and other elven tribes. While the history or philosophy of your tribe may indicate a certain respect for certain outsider groups - particularly other tribes... this is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason why an elf would feel any closer to an elf from another tribe than they would to a human or dwarf. Indeed, elven tribes war among each other as much, or more, than they war with other races.

Given that an elf makes no distinction between elf and non-elf when he is already a member of a tribe, we cannot draw the conclusion that he still would not make that distinction when he is -not- a member of a tribe. These are two very different situations, and you would have to have more than a few lines of documentation to support that kind of assertion. I mean, if you have a good -reason-, fundamentally premised on the documentation, that an elf would continue not to distinguish between elf and non-elf, let's hear it. But I think it's rather bold to simply assume that such a psychologically disastrous situation (for an elf) as the lack of a tribe would have no effect on the rest of his personality.

Synthesis - this is the reason why a tribeless elf would see outsiders in the same light as a tribal elf:

Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

The only difference between the views of a tribal elf and a tribeless elf is that the former has a WE/THEM mentality, while the latter has an I/THEM mentality.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Anonymous]

Uhhhh..... please forgive the gross errors (in writing) in my previous post, I hope you can still read it.... apologies.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Pantoufle]

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

[SpyGuy]

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

It has always been that way and in many cases makes sense.  Elves being a part of tribes, or at least broader elven communities (I imagine even in the Commoner's quarters of both cities the elves have their own isolated living quarter...maybe that should be added to flavor up the region...) and are so isolated they may not know perfect Sirihish.

They don't start with bad Sirihish by any means and it improves quickly for elves.  If it doesn't fit your background well just play it off as not understanding the human's enunciation perhaps?  Or as having a thick accent yourself.

[Folker]

In a way, I disagree with having elves feeling the same amount of animosity to outsider humans and outsider elves. And that comes from me, who 'never' played an elf, city based or tribe based.

Basically, what I am coming from, is that ontop of any other reasons, people (atleast humans) tend to hate those who hates them.  So, while they mistrust other elven tribes for being outsiders, they know that they are mistrusted by them in return, and may war over land, resources, insults, etc. While at the same time, they would mistrust and dislike the humans (especially allanaki probably) more then any other, because they know that they might fight over resources, land, insult, and ... well just because humans are entirely biased against elves.

[Pantoufle]

Angela Christine would disagree with you SpyGuy.

I'm not sure how far into the debate you've reached but, you see, we're arguing whether (most) elves live in elven communities or not.  I'm saying that the majority of them do, as is evidenced by NPCs (of which there are more city elf tribal NPCs than not, if one were to merrily waltz on through the Labyrinth and have a look around), as well as imperfect Sirihish for starting PC elves, not to mention a wealth of compelling documentation.

And, for the record, I didn't say city elves begin with "bad" Sirihish, I merely said "lower" -- as in lower than 100%.  I was being sarcastic by suggeting it may be a bug or quirk in the code, because I think it's appalingly obvious why elves don't start off speaking perfect Sirihish.

Once, many eons ago, I played a city elf in House Kurac.  He'd been adopted by a famous long lived Kuraci and raised amongst them.  One day, along came a Tar Kroh elf (before House Borsail had wiped them out -- yes, this is in the documentation, all you IC Fascists hoping to have me arrested for daring to mention this).  The Tar Kroh made a huge scene in the tavern, laughing down upon my poor elf for working for them.  He said I was weak, tribeless, and a pitiful example of my race.  I think the Tar Kroh RPed exactly how most tribal elves would look upon the smaller populous of tribeless elves.

[Angela Christine]

I'm not sure how far into the debate you've reached but, you see, we're arguing whether (most) elves live in elven communities or not.  

Who is arguing that with you?  I don't see it.  

All I've been arguing is that an elf that works with a multi-racial organization wouldn't necessarily be considered an outcast or a laughing stock by the majority of other elves.  I didn't say anything about living in an elven community.  Living in elven communities doesn't mean you can't interact deeply with other communities.  Tribeless elves are probably held in contempt by other elves, but being employed isn't the same as being tribeless.

Of course most elves live within elven communities.  They just don't live exclusively within elven communities.  There are probably plenty of elves living in the elvish section of the 'rinth that rarely interact with members of other races.  But if your tribe lives in Allanak or Tuluk, there isn't an exclusivly elven neighbourhood to retreat to.  Your family/tribe are elves, but your neighbours are elves, humans, dwarves, and half-giants.  In the regular commoner neighbourhoods even the self-employed elves are likely to deal with many customers of other races, shopkeepers of other races, and neighbours of other races on a daily basis.  There aren't any elf-only tennements or elf-only shops for them retreat to.  The tribes are subcultures within the greater culture.  

I think Rindan's Big Fat Elf Wedding example was particularily apt.




The language thing is a bit of an oddity.  Newbie dwarves seem to be even worse at sirihish, and learn it more slowly, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with dwarves forming associations with mainstream society.  No one expects dwarves to isolate themselves and only associate with other dwarves.  Half-elves are in an even more awkward position.  They start with good Sirihish and poor Allundean, which is unfortunate if they are playing a half-elf raised by elves rather than one raised by humans.  Are half-elves never raised by elves?  And if the half-elf was raised by humans, then why does she speak Allundean at all?  Elves, half-elves and dwarves all start with two languages, if one is inappropriate to your background you ignore it, and if one is underdeveloped for your background you try to get it up as quickly as possible and then ignore the discrepency.  If elves and dwarves were supposed to have isolationist backgrounds they wouldn't need to start with Sirihish at all.


Angela Christine

[SpyGuy]

I'm retarded for not reading the last two pages of the thread before posting earlier to respinde to Pantoufle and its late so forgive my total lack of understanding his point.  Skip to the bottom of this post for a summary of my rant if you want.

That said I agree with both AC and Pantoufle to degrees.  City elves live a segragated life, they have their own culture.  They probably live in their own areas even if there isn't a coded "elf ghetto" in the Commons like there is in the 'rinth.  They probably grow up speaking Allundean the vast majority of the time (hence the language skills) and living their life trying to get by and one up the humans who think they're so superior.  And of course try to prove themselves stealing, etc. etc.

But...I don't really see why all elves working for organizations would always be labeled outcastes.  All depends on circumstances.  If they're of your tribe and they're doing it because it pays good but in the process neglecting tribal duties then they're barely worth being called elves and should probably be taken care of.  But if the elf hired on with Salarr to learn the movements of its caravans or gain access to something to steal for the tribe then where is the harm?  He's being a productive member of tribal society even if the job would be disagreeable to him.  And if the elf isn't of your own tribe how do you know it which one it is?  You could assume sure but the elf in question shouldn't give a shit what the broader community of elves thinks, its what his tribe thinks of him that matters.

But here's the problem with city elves as they are (and I believe Imms have stated this should change in the future):  they usually aren't a member of a tribe.  People need to remember that Haruch Kemad's existence isn't common knowledge in the game world, it's actually ironic that the only OOCly documented elf tribe is one of the most secretive in the game world.  Granted for good reason, they need players somehow (intert plug for one of my favorite clans)

But tangent aside, so many PC city elves are orphans.  Being an orphan no matter what is like being scum in elven society.  In a society based on the tribe what place do orphans have?  The fringe.  And people on the fringe are the most likely to be breaking cultural norms and taking a step outside the community.  So I could see an orphaned elf moving to take refuge of a sort in a multi-racial organization, maybe at first they took it for their own benefit but through trust tests they might even come to accept clan X as their own tribe.

Summary:  Your typical elf wouldn't be joining a multiracial organization.  But the way the game is set up right now most PCs aren't your typical elf, they're orphans who represent the fringe of elven society.  And frankly its not IC for all city elves to flock to the rinth or to seek to ally themselves with rinth tribes, which to my knowledge are the only tribes coded in the game right now.  In the end though elf PCs of different tribes may share the same cultural framework but certainly don't have a sense of solidarity.  Therefore if your elf PC would ridicule an elf for being a member of a human owned House then go for it.  And if your elf PC has a valid reason to seek employment with a House (either working for his tribe, being an orphan just trying to get a place to live, etc.) then feel free to do that.

[Pantoufle]

Who is arguing that with you?

All I've been arguing is that...

I could turn this into a big quibble fest but I'll just leave it at that .

Tribeless elves are probably held in contempt by other elves, but being employed isn't the same as being tribeless.

9 times out of 10 yes it is.  An elf who is a member of a tribe (be they part of a vast family of desert elves or an elven gang of street punks) is not going to join a clan.  Interact with a clan, yes.  Spy, steal, assassinate "unofficially" for a clan, sure.  Join a clan and share a bunk with strangers, swear (usually lifelong) loyalty to, etc., etc., no.

But if your tribe lives in Allanak or Tuluk, there isn't an exclusivly elven neighbourhood to retreat to.

There may not be one coded, doesn't mean there isn't one.  There isn't anywhere to urinate in the Trader's Inn but I'm quite certain the nobles don't step out onto Meleth's Circle to mark their territory either.

No one expects dwarves to isolate themselves and only associate with other dwarves.

No one expects the same of elves, for that matter.  Indeed, that's the very point of my post to begin with.  But there are elven communities, even if you're not seeing them.

Half-elves are in an even more awkward position. They start with good Sirihish and poor Allundean, which is unfortunate if they are playing a half-elf raised by elves rather than one raised by humans. Are half-elves never raised by elves? And if the half-elf was raised by humans, then why does she speak Allundean at all?

To counter this, once, I wished up indicating that my character was raised amongst elves and an immortal changed my language per centages for me.

If elves and dwarves were supposed to have isolationist backgrounds they wouldn't need to start with Sirihish at all.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread who even remotely suggested that either elves or dwarves came from isolationist backgrounds.  An asian man living in Chinatown sure as shi* ain't isolated, but that doesn't mean his English is perfect either.  He's also not very likely to go work for a non-Chinese shop come to think of it.

Let the data lead you, not the other way around.

[Primalfire]

Well, I'm only posting b/c somebody mentioned Tar'Kroh, of which I was a founding member. Haven't been on Armageddon in years, and I still have my old school desert elf and logged on for the first time in AGES and had an interaction that to me, points out how people who roleplay conniving desert dwellers can improve. (btw, wow!, the game has changed alot, great going guys!!)

My character has A Thing, and is hanging out in a desert elf establishment.
Other character sees Thing, and instead of bartering, conniving, trying to get a great deal or upperhand ... all that starts coming out are death threats, rather quickly. Right there in 'public' .. give it to me, or I'm gonna kill you ... in essence. Not even VEILED or sneaky death threats.

This has got to be the lamest RP'ing I've ever seen for a race that takes pride in taking advantage of others, of winning a game of wits, of proving their superiority, of winning the upper hand.

To me, as an old-timer, the desert elf race was always about freedom of individuality, confined to the group and play style of the tribe. Being sneaky and conniving did NOT mean slaughtering everything that moved in the wilderness and killing every PC who came along (even though the TK did have that reputation for a little while.)

It was about playing 'the game', and leaving people wondering and confused about the elvish motives. Instead of slaughtering everybody, we'd steal their shoes and mounts, take their water, let them travel back to cities with only a dagger and a loin-cloth. That kind of thing, is to me, the essence of 'getting the upper-hand.'  And what I did with my tar'kroh in the city was excellent (It may have been my character who slammed that poor city elf a few posts back..., if not I was certainly there.)

Sneaky and conniving does not mean cold-blooded thug-murderous-killer, especially considering that elves would live close to the land and have a better respect of life and how absolutely necessary it is in a harsh environment for survival. Arbitrary murder of characters, whether in a city or the desert, is pyschotic behavior ... defending a specific territory is reasonable, and knowing that entering X-tribes territory is paramount to a death sentence, and knowing it, and then getting axed is your own damn problem.

Constantly attacking and threatening anything that moves, unskillful and vulgar. Dogmatically following an 'isolation' policy, short-sighted. Any intelligent tribesman will avoid cities, but not interaction with 'city-dwellers' if there is an advantage for themselves or, more importantly, their tribe.

[amoeba]

Constantly attacking and threatening anything that moves, unskillful and vulgar. Dogmatically following an 'isolation' policy, short-sighted. Any intelligent tribesman will avoid cities, but not interaction with 'city-dwellers' if there is an advantage for themselves or, more importantly, their tribe.

In full agreement.  I see this behavour a lot with what I suspect are newbie delves.  This is doubly so of some tribes. There is a reason this is a karma class.  It takes some time to wrap your head around the delf mindset.

[Anonymous]

Elves and slaves.  My two favorite subjects on Armageddon.

Desert elves:  The reason to have desert elves, in my opinion, is to offer a different KIND of gameplay.  One that does not revolve around the citystates.  If you want to play an elf that spends his time in the city, then play a city elf.  The point behind desert cultures is to explore desert cultures.  Most of these are, by nature, somewhat isolationist (where isolationist means "does not live in, around, or rely upon a city or the people who play there").  The key to giving them more interaction with others in the world is to establish a reason for them to interact with people outside of the cities.  

Back in The Day, Salarr had established a great trading relationship with the Blackwing.  There was ONE GUY who had gained the trust of the elves and they gave him things that meant nothing to them in exchange for things that they couldn't make themselves (like better weapons and armor), and that was a perfectly fine reason to interact.  Other reasons to interact included desert travellers who traded skins from other parts of Zalanthas that were not available in the tablelands, killing off raiders from the citystates, harboring fugitives, hunting fugitives, etc.

PKilling and territory:  Desert elves have every right and expectation to brutally murder anyone they see on their territory if that person is not of their clan or race, whether they are alone or with a brigade of ten thousand.  Why?  Because where you live is sacred.  If someone else finds out where you live, they could muster an army of a couple thousand and wipe you, your family, and everyone you have ever known off the face of Zalanthas.  Nevermind what one magicker can do - and if someone is  powerful enough to survive -alone- in the wilderness, you have EVERY right to be scared as hell of that mother.  In fact, attempts to wipe out elven clans have happened just like this.  And it's one of the reasons elves are so incredibly distrusting of other people.  Some tribes HATE other tribes and are only rarely not seen trying to kill one another.  This is also acceptable.  Would an elf automatically kill another elf who is not in his tribe while visiting an outpost?  No.  That's just stupid.

Furthermore, by giving elves resources within their territories that are not available other places in Zalanthas (and by restricting what is available within this area), that fosters your basis for interaction.  If you want to make friends with an elf, or trade, establish a desert outpost and do it, or give desert elves (or desert people) real reasons to go to Luir's.

And yes, it is possible to work with people fairly extensively without trusting them.  It's called "stealing".  Whether that's in the form of clever bartering or pranks, the elf should always perceive that he has some form of advantage, and that is the only motivation for him to continue the interaction unless tests have occurred to level the playing field.  An elf would never cheat his tribemate.

City elves:  Any city elf who takes a "job" without having his own ulterior, self-serving motive is just bad RP.  City elves can be clanless or clanned.  Those who are clanless will be viewed, by those who are clanned, as outcasts.  Those who are clanned have little reason, in most cases, to accept "jobs" from those who are outside their clan.  Most clans are clans because they have members who serve all the functions needed by the people in that clan, and elves inside that clan should trust their brethren as if they are family and focus on doing the best thing for the tribe above the individual.  Therefore unless a clan requires a spy or a contact, for example, it is more likely that a clanless city elf would be in a position to solicit employment or work for himself.  This does not mean that a clanned elf who takes a job would be outcast.

As an elf in a city, I would take a job because I am, for example, spying on my employer for extra 'sid, robbing him blind, or framing him for something ultra nefarious that I and/or my buddies are planning/doing (this includes using an employer to get close to a target for assassination and revenge).  However, by and large, I would consider elves to be the entrepreneurs of Armageddon.  Where there's money to be made, make ten times it.  And that's how I would play an elf.  They are not reliant upon other elves or upon humans.  To be reliant upon a human would be akin to being the slave of a slave.  It would be embarassing, and a sign of weakness and stupidity -  two things that should get you killed as an elf amongst elves, regardless of your origin.

Renting an apartment from a human is just engaging in a deal - but you might have tested the owner of that apartment for trust before consenting to rent with him or her, and you should prefer to deal with elves rather than humans in every context, unless you think that you have a significant personal advantage to dealing with a human instead of an elf, all things else being equal.

[amoeba]

PKilling and territory:  Desert elves have every right and expectation to brutally murder anyone they see on their territory if that person is not of their clan or race, whether they are alone or with a brigade of ten thousand.  Why?  Because where you live is sacred.  If someone else finds out where you live, they could muster an army of a couple thousand and wipe you, your family, and everyone you have ever known off the face of Zalanthas.  Nevermind what one magicker can do - and if someone is  powerful enough to survive -alone- in the wilderness, you have EVERY right to be scared as hell of that mother.  In fact, attempts to wipe out elven clans have happened just like this.  And it's one of the reasons elves are so incredibly distrusting of other people.  Some tribes HATE other tribes and are only rarely not seen trying to kill one another.  This is also acceptable.  Would an elf automatically kill another elf who is not in his tribe while visiting an outpost?  No.  That's just stupid.

The problem with this mindset is it it rather one-dimensional and leads to somewhat shallow and over time uninteresting play.  It is also in many ways incorrect.  

While the ultra-territorial elven tribes do exist, they do not represent all tribes by any means.   This does not mean that different clans trust each other, they don't for many reasons. Many of the reasons are layed out in the various clan's documentation.  A nomadic tribe would be  focused on keeping their tribe alive.  With a population of a few hundred to a few thousand, it would be very dangerous to piss off a large group such as a large merchant house, or a city state.   Raising the radar by attacking members of these groups is foolish to the extreme.

I do see time and again Desert Elves exhibiting the most extreme anti-social behavior. Often extending to those of their own tribe.  Many act like trolls guarding a bridge.  While there is nothing wrong with this, in ignoring the many layers of tribal life and focusing only on the aggressive aspects, much is lost.  Tribal life would also be about having a rich oral history, and deeply ingrained rituals and beliefs that are explored.  The tribal would exist in a tightly knit extended family that are highly interdependent upon each other.  The aggressive nature is only one aspect of tribal life.

[John]

Of course that elf will still have the elven inclination to steal, he just practices it outside the job site, or through methods that won't get him fired, like swindling other employees, running confidence scams, cheating at cards, and so on.  Trickery counts as stealing in the elven mindset.

Or "providing inside information to his tribe." He's "stealing" the information, and being paid to do it. He's in a situation where he MUST have that information for Salarr. That's a highly respectable elf right there. He might consider himself the best thief of his tribe "oho! My employer just said he trusted me because I wasn't part of the break-in. How good am I? Not only was I crucial to the plot by stealing the info, I've gained his trust WHILE stealing the info. By the way, he's investigating this area for the elves who broke in, so stay clear of there for a while."

My point here is was he a thief trying to rip off the tourist? Depends on your perspective.  From his viewpoint he was concerned with helping to provide for his family and he was more than willing to exploit a tourist's confusion if possible to better provide for his own.  His motivation was not theivery, but rather survival.   I'm sure this boy had a life other than standing around McDonalds and selling trinkets, he probably would have rather been screaming through the tubes with the other kids as well.    Our characters in the game should be no less complex.

When I went to Venice I was warned that the beggars actually made quite a bit of money from tourists, and that after a hard day's work of begging they'd catch the ferry to their completely normal home, get washed up and live completely normally.

That's thieving. And it's completely legal. As for your boy, he may have been poor, or he could just as easily have been ripping you off for some extra cash for some CDs he wanted. You just never know (unless of course he was obviously diseased or something).

The only point I am making is that an elf enlisting in a clan is an outsider amongst his people

I disagree 100% on this.

Remember, family is paramount to an elf's livelihood, so having some stranger tell you "I'm your boss and I'm more important than your blood" is a smack in the face for any elf.

Or he might go home and say "my boss is a real wanker. He said my first priority is him and not my tribe. I of course agreed, I didn't appear too eager, but I agreed somewhat. I think I fooled him, the bloody idiot. This is going to be easy!"

Working for a clan means upholding the clan's image, and thus not doing sneaky elvish things

You mean like getting paid to learn how to work wood (done for his clan and himself), getting good bargains in trade (done for his clan and himself) and getting free food and water? (provided for by the clan) [sarcasm] You're right. An elf would rarely do any of that. [/sarcasm]

An elf whose employed by a clan is an elf his tribe doesn't have to provide food or water for, and is an elf who will be able to provide for his tribe in a very different manner then normal.

I think the single most sticking points in joining a clan would be "life service" and "sleeping in the barracks." Elves can't join the militia or noble houses, so life service isn't important. And I think if you can afford your own apartment, a merchant house will let you rent it, but you'd have to enquire in game.

Desert elves are definitely at a distinct disadvantage in joining clans, and should probably happen only once every blue moon. But city elves would certainly be willing to join a clan, if the clan is willing to hire the city elf

This notion of an elf "testing" his clanmates until they become his family still makes him a freak amongst his own kind -- after all, what elf would choose human company over their own kind?

No, he didn't choose human company. He chose Outsider company. Also, it should take years to test people, so there's no way an elf would be able to test an entire clan Instead the elf has to control the situations he's placed in, to avoid being at a disadvantage to the outsiders. And an elf won't avoid all outsiders. He'll deal with them when he has to, and when he's working to steal from them.

A tribeless loner elf would be more prone to team up with other elves (since they have a similar motive: sneakiness)

I disagree. I don't think elves truly understand human's disrespect for stealing, after all there are numerous and numerous examples of them doing it every day. I think they'd be very puzzled by humans' continuous claim that stealing is bad, and would develop strange opinions about them. Also, elves aren't after sneakiness, they're after stealing. One doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Elves need neither official employment nor human employment to earn a living or take care of their family.

They don't need it, but the reward can be quite large when done properly

For all these reasons, clanned elves do not represent the vast majority of their race.

I agree, but only because it takes such a large chunk of time that a tribe couldn't afford for too many of it's members to be employed.

To a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks, any fellow elf dressed in House Salarr (or any other clan) colors is a laughable phenomenon.

You mean he'd be laughed at because the elf managed to con Salarr into thinking that the elf wouldn't steal from Salarr? Sounds like a very admirable elf to me. ESPECIALLY if that elf is also from a tribe which has predominantly been "a gang of shady elves passing by in their dark hooded cloaks."

This isn't a black man abandoning his neighbourhood to go live on Wall Street. This is an elf choosing to serve his tribe.

Do you honestly think that some Arabic merchant who sells figs and oriental rugs in a stand and whose family is paramount to his very existance would leave his home to go work for some giant merchant monopoly which demands extreme loyalty (typically lifelong servitude, at that) just so he could pull a few sneaky stunts, as is in his nature to do?  No, I think he'd happily continue the way he and his family had been functioning for generations (without the employ of official organizations).  Let's also not forget that the clans of the game represent the cream of the crop.  Everyone wants to join up, few people are fortunate enough to.  So what happens to all the others?  Well, they're still making a living somehow, either as vagrants, conmen, merchants in small fruit stands and the like, you name it.  Elves in clans are most certainly a possibility, but they're still to be laughed at by the rest of the elvish race.

This makes perfect sense to me.

The flaw in the argument is fairly big. For the sake of the argument I'll assume that the family of the Arabic family would be extremely hard done by if the father were to join the monopoly. Comparing that with an elf joining a clan assumes that the only advantage being in a clan provides to the tribe is "being able to do a few sneaky stuff" and that the tribe will be helpless without the elf. This is simply not true.

Is an elf joining a clan a depletion of tribe resources? Yes. But if they're doing fairly well, they'll benefit hugely from this. If they're struggling to survive, they'd only do so as a very last resort (of the "we're going to die if we don't do something drastic" variety).

Some might care, some might not.

No. None care. They only care if they're a member of their own tribe, if they've befriended the person (after many years of trials) or if a person's opinion will significantly hamper the elf's ability to steal.

Most of the city elf tribes have centuries old histories (such as the Dariki or Sandas, whom I'm guessing you know nothing about).  They haven't survived this long by warring endlessly with one another.  If you ever play an elf in the East Side or play a character in the Haruch Kemad clan, you'll see what I mean.

I think we've crossed a line into IC info. Please be careful, finding about groups not on the publicly viewable website is extremely fun for people. Reading it on the GDB detracts from the enjoyment of the game for these people. Even a name is a bit too much, otherwise I'd mention the name for........

Why do city elves begin the game speaking a lower level of Sirihish?  It must be a bug or a quirk in the code, right?

Same reason dwarf's do. I'd love for this to change, it seems unlikely to though anytime soon. I can't imagine a single argument that hasn't been made before.

[Primalfire]

Desert elves have always been my favorite race due to the interesting and unique roleplay opportunities available to them. Not to mention, they are fantastic for exploring the wonderfully designed greater world of Zalanthas, which is something that round-eared, slow-footed humans rarely get to do. And by explore, I mean _explore_ .. not take a trip to some random outpost once in a blue while.

Part of the interesting rp opportunities are the unique personalities that elves have. The current mindset that seems to prevail about delves is, immature and leaves opportunities for development.

City elves have been hashed to pieces, yet here are my takes on the three major types of delves:

Tribal with established Territory - A tribe that has a territory is, in theory, large enough to hold and protect that territory. Trespassing on that tribes territory is tantamount to suicide. This does not mean that all of Zalanthas is 'territory', and that anybody in the wastelands is a valid target for 'protecting our lands from invasion.'

Tribes will also have a social system, a cultural foundation, and moral values that would hold the tribe together.

And while robbery, thievery and murder may be a part of how some tribe members make a living, a whole tribe based on slaughtering wanderers would eventually get wiped out (or nearly so ... *wink*) .. There are going to be a huge variety of roles within a tribe, story-teller, healers, lore-masters, hunters (of animals), the warriors who protect the people, tradesman and craftsman ..... yet it seems that amateur delves take the single role of 'pyschotic death dealer.'

A tribal character will not trust anybody outside their tribe, and this to me means that they may interact, or not, depending on situation.

Most tribals, imho, just don't need to bother with outsiders, ever. But some members of a large tribe like this will, regardless of 'trust' or not, just to support their tribe with needs that are difficult to find or make in the wastelands. How you going to find people to trade with if they are all just immediately off'd? Having the support of a larger group may make the members of an established tribe more daring, but daring can be creatively expressed in a variety of ways beyond mere 'how many neat emotes can I pump out while slaughtering another noob.'

In addition, to 'get the upper hand' means sometimes HELPING out somebody in distress, making alliances, and then milking that for all you can. Being conniving and tricky doesn't mean 'IT MOVES, FUCKING SLAUGHTER IT!'

Nomad Elves - These tribal elves would tend to have an 'established' territory, but would move around a great deal and not necessarily use their resources to protect land that they are not currently on. A nomad tribe would likely be much smaller than a established tribe that doesn't move, and their circles of trust would be much much smaller. They would also, imo, visit trading posts a little more often to barter for goods that are necessary, but probably only in large enough groups to protect themselves, their goods, and to ensure enough, ahh ... *ahem* proper trading takes place.

A nomad elf tribe, to me, may be more inclined to robbery and murder since they would be more difficult to track down, their resources wouldn't be stable as a established 'elf-tribe city' would be. A little more on the edge, with many more mouths to feed, would lead to more desperate acts. Which may also include extreme amounts of 'trusting' a stranger to get the essential trade or deal necessary to provide aid for the tribe.

Yet, killing strangers for a smaller tribe is a greater threat, simply because there are less of a tribe to provide protection when the inevitable retaliation comes.

Loner Elves These elves, for whatever reason, either don't have a tribe, or are disconnected for their tribe, or are simply wild. They would tend to be more unpredictable, having only themselves to rely upon. Fiercly independent, trusting in nothing but their own abilities, it seems to me that the loner d-elf has the greatest potential for being a-pyscho-killer, or b-unusual in the way that the elf is socially adjusted in a different way as to display some 'un-elf-like-characteristics.' Either way, it  comes down to how classy a person is with their RP, and if the ROLE is taken, or if OOC opportunities are exploited. It seems to me that, unless the elf were _BADASS_, that this type of loner would tend to run and be very isolationist and wary of EVERYTHING, most especially other d-elves.

Heh, ironic my posting this stuff considering the reputation that TarKroh had. Yet, after coming back and seeing the current d-elf mindset, it seems to me that Miami Vice video game has invaded Zalanthas. To me, desert elf = noble savage unbound by city state norms, not murderous brute.[/b]