How Best To Address Sexism IC and Out

[LoD]

Even Arm men have tesostriom.

There probably isn't enough evidence or documentation on estrogen and testosterone levels in Zalanthan men/women to make claims that one is physically stronger than another.  Hundreds or thousands of years of microevolution have probably granted both genders the appropriate level of physical strength, agility and endurance to both compete and survive on our harsh, but fantastical, desert world.

I choose the word fantastical to remind people that Zalanthas isn't Earth.  Zalanthan humans do not assume any inherent qualities, cultural beliefs or physiological components from Earth humans.  And that's hard to believe.  Zalanthan humans have ears, feet, blood, hearts, emotions, jobs, houses and many other similarities toward Earth humans.  Who would've guessed at the physiological and cultural changes if no one was properly instructed?  Who would know how to interact in a society where men haven't dominated every major decision making entity?

We often forgot that Zalanthan humans may be as far removed from Earth humans as elves, dwarves, gith and the other sentient races in every other category save appearance.

That said, I agree with you that men and women of Zalanthas will have their differences.  What those are is difficult to say because unless you go with conventional explanations (which is all we have), what is the alternative?  The alternative is -creating- a new social order that somehow everyone has to learn without instruction.  And not only learn, but put these sophisticated rules on social interaction into practice when they almost completely contradict everything the player knows to be true.

If you see a man and a woman both trip, which are more likely to help?

If a woman kisses her girl friend goodbye, do you think twice?  What if a guy kissed his guy friend goodbye?

If you put RISK and a Sex in the City Trivia Game on a table and told a man and woman to each pick one, which would the other most likely pick?

If a woman grabs your ass and you hit her, are you an asshole?  What about if a guy grabs your ass?

These are just a few questions that demonstrate gender and social roles in Western society that we take for granted.  Little things we've been taught for years and years.  Things we've learned from our family, friends, TV, media coverage, books, classrooms, etc...

This isn't the same as people accepting magick, increased psionic capacity, gigantic insect mounts, dictatorial governments or any of the other aspects of the game many of us have never experienced first hand.  It's taking something all of us have learned, to some degree, over the course of entire lives and changing it all around.  It may sound simple to say, "Just treat women equal to men." but it's not that easy.  You'd be surprised how much is involved in changing a social order.  I mean, take an American female and place her into Jordan and let her see how that culture treats her for a few months.  And that's LESS of a change than is proposed by there being not only cultural differences, but phsiological differences.

This is making it seem far more complicated that it should ever be, but it may demonstrate why something like this may be difficult to truly wrap your head around and RP correctly.  It's hard and, really, not worth the effort for the reward to most.

-LoD

[Larrath]

Men and women are identical in all physical respects, with the exception of reproductive organs and boobies.
Why?  A sorcerer did it.

Their social standing is completely identical, and has been this way as far as anyone can remember.   Why?  A mindbender did it.

I don't care if you post fifty thousand good reasons why real-life men are often stronger than real-life women, or why real-life sexism exists.

Get over yourselves and play by the documentations.  Anything you can learn or infer about the game, in this case, will not override the fact that men and women are identical in-game.  There could be fifty more Sorcerer-Kings, and a thousand other famous and infamous Thrainesque PCs, and it would not matter.

Silk-wearing women should not be treated more politely than silk-wearing men.  Some people, IG, are frail and should be treated as such.  Some people are not, and should not be treated that way.
Refusing to take orders from a woman ICly should be considered just as retarded as refusing to take orders from a man IRL because their arm has been broken once.

[RunningMountain]

I prefer playing PCs that refuse to take orders from men and women. Not because women are inferior but because he thinks everyone is inferior.

[O]

As to how to rp it, why not sling it right back at him!

You can assume he's either taking the royal piss, or is slightly cuckoo, and there's loads of enjoyment to be had from that.

[bloodfromstone]

Nicely said, JGG.

[Marauder Moe]

Sexism isn't the only real-life prejudice missing in Armageddon.  There's also no racism (the skin-color kind, not the ear-shape kind).  Zalanthans don't look down on prostitutes (any more than a commoner of any other profession).  Zalanthans don't make personal assumptions based on hair color (red-headed step child, etc).  There's no distrust of left-handed people in Zalanthas.  No stigma attached to homosexuality either.

Its interesting that the sexism issue comes up on the GDB far more often than these other issues, or so it seems.  I'll refrain from social commentary, though.  :roll:

[Seeker]

Now, the point of this thread isn't to ignite yet another "Are women equal?" back-and-forth; rather, it's to ask about the handling of a specific dynamic. To wit:

(Physically Weak Female): "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior): "A [high rank]? That's weird, you don't see that very often. I'd never take orders from a woman."

The problem isn't that Buff Male Warrior won't take orders from a woman.  That's fine (see JGG's excellent post above).

The problem is that Buff Male Warrior is full of shit.

"A [high rank]? That's weird, you don't see that very often..."

(Physically Weak Female, pointing): "Oh?  Well how about those six over there?"


Seeker

[Agent_137]

it seems to me some experienced roleplayers will use the lack of PC examples as a good excuse to have their character believe in something that doesn't follow the docs. But I urge them to mentally be aware of all the virtual examples that are pefectly inline with the docs, and are more numerous than the PC examples.

And yes, the perfect answer to the initial question is in the above post. Just use virtual examples. Make them up, if you have to.

[Naiona]

The following is personal opinion and not official staff policy:

Anyone is welcome to pretend that all female characters are weak and incompetent in game.    Some of them won't mind.  Some of them will.  All of them will likely think that the person with those views is either insane or an idiot.  It will, however - make it all that much easier for all of them to kill you.

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma?  Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Leave your real-world perceptions behind.  If you want to think someone is weak because they are dressing in silk and giggling - go for it.  Either a male or female is capable of playing a foppish and fragile character (or playing someone pretending to be foppish and fragile as a front).  Just don't use their gender as your reason for such a dangerous assumption.

[Pantoufle]

I've actually only read the very first and very last posts so far.  I agree with Naiona's sentiments 100%.  Having said that, the situation described by the author may have been a one time incident, only, from a character who, perhaps (perhaps not), let a real world perception accidently slip into the game without thinking.  Everyone does this, including the devout feminists of the game.  Try as we might, real world perceptions will continue to plague us in game, it's just a question of how much is too much.  No need to call the cavalry unless its a constant issue, I think.  Is one slight comment enough to raise the alarms?  I would only consider it a "big deal" if the character continued with this line of thinking, regularly making chauvenistic comments and even going so far as to demonstrate it with his authority by refusing to recruit/promote female characters.

In the same line of thinking suggested by Naiona, I would simply roleplay the individual as being a wacko.  But I'd also then likely roleplay forgetting the comment was even made a day later unless the character in question persisted.  I've a feeling, Bluefae, that if the player reads this thread, rest assured, he'll stop immediately.  There are plenty of incidents where we all forget real world vs. game world from time to time.  It's best to approach these issues delicately because (almost) nobody does it conscously.  One thing that really gets to me is when a male character refers to his clan buddies as the 'Men' or the 'Boys'.  I've even heard some male character say that they're going to 'Round up a few men' to .. do whatever.  At the same time, I couldn't ever bother to actually e-mail in a complaint to the MUD account about it.  It's irkesome, but not enough for me to make an official gripe about it.  I realise that's not as extreme as the chauvenist example in the original post but, again, wait until it's a serious problem before jumping the guns.

[bloodfromstone]

As far as 'rounding up the men' is concerned, I've heard it used many times, sometimes by a female leader talking to a female clan member. It's not really an appropriate term due to the game world, but unfortunately we're mostly limited to the words and phrases used in RL. 'Rounding up a few people' won't instantly give us the impression that they're all part of the clan/military. It's the best English phrase I can think of to get across the what the PC is trying to say. While it's not the best choice to use IG, I can completely understand how someone would say it and not actually be bringing OOC sexism into the game.

[My 2 sids]

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma? Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Not to derail but is this thread about theology or about actual practice???

I have posted questioning the theology behind the Docs not to cause trouble in game (or to even reflect on my characters at all) but because I thought we were having a discussion.

[Sanvean]

The original question was whether the cited example was bad play and how to handle it.  I think that question's been answered sufficiently and in a way that demonstrates that the answer is not going to change, no matter how much wheel spinning regarding the philosophy behind one of the game's basic premises occurs.

Since then various digressions have been made in the directions of RL sexism, the whys and wherefores of Zalanthan language, the difficulty of releasing RL beliefs, gender-inclusive/exclusive language, etc. - I'm sure that I'm overlooking a few.  To my mind the thread's done and answered and anything else is going to be just noise of the type people have been complaining about.

Naiona states it well and I think I've made a stab at it too: Yes, there can be exceptions.  If you are running one of these then it needs to be played in a way that acknowledges that this is not the norm.  If you're consistently playing this kind of exception, then it raises some questions about your roleplay and we encourage you to try breaking away from that pattern.

[Ritley]

Anyone is welcome to pretend that my female characters are weak and incompetent in game.    Some of them won't mind.  Some of them will.  All of them will likely think that the person with those views is either insane or an idiot.  It will, however - make it all that much easier for all of them to kill you.

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma?  Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Leave your real-world perceptions behind.  If you want to think someone is weak because they are dressing in silk and giggling - go for it.  Either a male or female is capable of playing a foppish and fragile character (or playing someone pretending to be foppish and fragile as a front).  Just don't use their gender as your reason for such a dangerous assumption.

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well? but then again judging by the girls I see in Arm it kinda dismisses that belief.... but I have always treated men and woman equal in Arm. In fact it is affecting the way I treat woman for RL.

[Naiona]

It has been pointed out to me by a player that I mixed my personal opinion with my 'staff opinion' in my previous post (and yes, I did).

To be more clear, my personal opinion is not staff opinion.  I am going back and edit my post a bit, but for those who read it before I offer my apologies if anyone was confused.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

[moab]

It's 2005, right?

Equal does not mean the same, that would be identical.

[Naiona]

Not to derail but is this thread about theology or about actual practice???

I have posted questioning the theology behind the Docs not to cause trouble in game (or to even reflect on my characters at all) but because I thought we were having a discussion.

No one is going to penalize you for discussing an issue in a civilized manner on the GDB.  Trust issues occur based on actions, not opinions expressed in a polite manner here.

[Hexxaex]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

I do like it when I see buff, muscular and scarred women doing mercenary or hunting jobs instead of dainty, delicate maidens all doing aide jobs and sissy crafting stuff.

I actually have seen females with the word maiden in their sdesc, and I don't even have to look at them to figure out they're a merchant or an aide.  It ticks me off how women are being created for those jobs, and men are always looking so dominant physically and status-wise with their fighting jobs.  Lots of Armageddon women are white-toothed, silky-haired, smooth-skinned, voluptious and curvaecous.  Makes me think my character just walked into a Vegas nightclub.

I tend to react oddly to women who are all perfect and sexy, and my characters tend to wonder how they manage to keep themselves like that.  Zalanthas is not a hygene-concious and perfect world, and hats off to the players who make fighting women.  It really helps push the sexism away when I see them.

[jstorrie]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

[Cale_Knight]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

Probably.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

For one thing, you'll get a mudsex offer twice a week as opposed to never.

[Ritley]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

I do like it when I see buff, muscular and scarred women doing mercenary or hunting jobs instead of dainty, delicate maidens all doing aide jobs and sissy crafting stuff.

I actually have seen females with the word maiden in their sdesc, and I don't even have to look at them to figure out they're a merchant or an aide.  It ticks me off how women are being created for those jobs, and men are always looking so dominant physically and status-wise with their fighting jobs.  Lots of Armageddon women are white-toothed, silky-haired, smooth-skinned, voluptious and curvaecous.  Makes me think my character just walked into a Vegas nightclub.

I tend to react oddly to women who are all perfect and sexy, and my characters tend to wonder how they manage to keep themselves like that.  Zalanthas is not a hygene-concious and perfect world, and hats off to the players who make fighting women.  It really helps push the sexism away when I see them.

People are naturally pretty you know. Naturally have white teeth and stuff like that. People will probably get quite muscular due to the amount of physical work they are put through a day.

[Medena]

Just a quick tip for Ritley:

You can go into the big block of quoted text and, using either the delete or backspace key, edit it down so only the specific few lines that you are reacting to remain.

That way, the block of quoted text looks far less daunting to subsequent readers and your own message is that much more meaningful.

[Qetesh]

Please do not clutter up threads with big blocks of quoted text, if it can be avoided. I have already gone into this thread a few times and edited a bunch of it out where I could.