How Best To Address Sexism IC and Out

[Bluefae]

Had a rather awkward rp moment the other day.  Almost posted this in the 'Ask the Staff' section, but I'd also like some PC input / related scenarios.

First off, from what I've read in the documentation, women and men in Zalanthas are absolutely equal.  Not just in the eyes of the law (or what passes as such), but physically - females can run as fast, lift as much, and fight as hard as their male counterparts.  Of course, some may be weaker than men, but just as many men will be weaker than women.  They have access to positions just as men do:  a roughly-equal amount of lady Templars, Nobles, Senators, etc.  Finally, in the mid-level positions, you have a balance of male and female physicians, merchants, sergeants, et al.

In play, this has more or less held up, too.  A few characters have explicitly stated "They're no differences between men and women, except 'down there'".  This seems to be the prevailing attitude IG.

Now, the point of this thread isn't to ignite yet another "Are women equal?" back-and-forth; rather, it's to ask about the handling of a specific dynamic.  To wit:

(Physically Weak Female):  "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior):  "A [high rank]?  That's weird, you don't see that very often.  I'd never take orders from a woman."

Now, after some further discussion it became clear that the sole objection Buff Male Warrior had was that the person in question was female.  At this point, I know some might say "Ah ha, but perhaps Buff Male Warrior is playing the odd chauvinist!"  Granted, this could be the case, and if so, more power to him.  However, that doesn't answer the larger question.

How should one best handle these situations?  If a PC, as opposed to a character, is bringing his (or her, for that matter) sexism into the game, is there a graceful way to manage the interaction?  My first instinct was to play it out the way my PC would:  in this case, she simply made a joke of it IC, and went on about her business, but it stuck with me enough to write this post.  

If it was just the two of us, I probably wouldn't worry about it; these things generally work themselves out.  However, this person is in a position to effect many new players (not that I'm not one myself, but you get my meaning) - I don't really relish the idea of having to IC'ly correct the next three recruits we get when they tell me "We don't have to listen to you, because you're a woman."    Could be laziness on my part, but there it is.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

[RunningMountain]

It's not sexism for most men. It's realism. Men are stronger then woman in our world. So it's difficult to let go of that. Deal with it anyway you want. But I really dislike the equality movement because it makes it that much harder to explain why every powerful leader in the game thus far has been a MALE.

Just look at the History of Zalanthas. The game is dominated by mostly men players, so there should be differences just to explain that alone.

[Packersfan]

Ah the old, bad roleplayer disease. This person not taking orders from a woman ig, would equate to a man in real life not wanting to take orders from a human. Hence, he would be a pariah, a wierdo, a wacko, a nutjob, a crazy man. Get the point? There is no chauvanism in Armageddon, because there would be no basis for it. This player is just a bad roleplayer, and I suggest you send an e-mail to your immortal to explain what the docs clearly outline and he has chosen to not read or ignore, to him.

I'm editing this for running mountain's post: Do you consider a 'Nakki red robe a position that is not powerful? There have been and probably still are red robed 'nakki templars that are female. Are Lirathen Templars not powerful? I mean, it is just a coincidence that the 3-4 MOST powerful people of all time are men.

[Sanvean]

This is the official staff position in regards to this question:

This sort of attitude is not the norm on Zalanthas.  When it does appear, it's on a par with, as one possible example, someone insisting they would never take orders from a man, because they're just not as level-headed as women.  To play as though this is normal on Zalanthas is playing outside the bounds of the game and deliberately disregarding one of its facets.

Am I saying there are no exceptions?  No, just as there probably may be one kank-riding elf out there.  Or a Tan Muark who is secretly attracted to elves.  I'm okay with these characters as long as they roleplay out the circumstances correctly, although they make me uneasy in that new players may witness them and get the wrong idea.

[RunningMountain]

Just to prove my above point, here's some snippets from the history page with bolded male dominance.


The Old Council of Kings begins to decay. In the final meeting between the Kings and Avangions of old....


The powerful chieftain Quintus Tektolnes conquers and unites the tribes at ....

....The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King.


Thrain Ironsword...

...sorceror that identifies himself as the Lord of Storms...

Let's not forget that all red robe templars (that I know of), were male.

Don't get me wrong, I think females can get just as powerful as men in the game, but there are going to be gender biases.
And looking at the history of the IN GAME world, men have dominated, unfortunately because the players are mainly men.

[RunningMountain]

I'm editing this for running mountain's post: Do you consider a 'Nakki red robe a position that is not powerful? There have been and probably still are red robed 'nakki templars that are female. Are Lirathen Templars not powerful? I mean, it is just a coincidence that the 3-4 MOST powerful people of all time are men.

Sure they are, but I've never met a female RR. I have met (3) Male red robes in game though. This isn't the point though. Tektolnes could be a female there's nothing to disprove that, but if you look at every major civilization in the game, it's been ruled by a male King or Lord. Or whatever.

-RM

[Medena]

I was trying to think of something analogous in real life and then from there decide how I'd play it.

What I came up with was someone saying, "Oh, I could never work for someone with red hair."

If someone said that to me I'd naturally think they were joking. If they persisted I'd think they were -very- strange.  And if they kept on voicing it to other people in my workplace, I'd probably eventually go to a higher up to describe the person's bizarre behaviour and voice my concern about what might happen should they ever have a red-haired supervisor.

[Sanvean]

We actually have a higher proportion of female players than many muds, oddly enough.  Of current staff, 10 are female, and 17 male.  I've known multiple red-robed female templars in the history of the game, including the NPC red robe that conquered Tuluk, Elaira Fale.  

What I've posted above is the official staff position.  I'm not going to argue it because it's not going to change.  Thanks.

[Dakurus]

The official staff position has been stated.

You are required to suspend your beliefs in many cases to role play properly on the world of Zalanthas. This applies to both your real world experiences and your previous in game experiences. Just because you know a bunch of places to find water and it's easy now for your current character to find, we still require you to role play an understanding that water on zalanthas is a scarce resource. We require you to roleplay a southern, northern, tribal, and other cultures as specified, not as you may have seen an example or two of previously. If you cannot, or will not do that, then it's something you need to work on.

[amoeba]

I'd equate this to someone saying they wouldn't take orders from a green eyed person. In context it doesn't make sense.

Now, perhaps I would let whoever know there is someone who thinks he doesn't have to take orders from superiors and, with luck this person will learn the hard way why that is a bad thing to say. I wouldn't put it in the terms as wouldn't take orders from a woman, rather I'd put it as wouldn't take orders if he didn't feel like it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

(Physically Weak Female):  "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior):  "A [high rank]?  That's weird, you don't see that very often.  I'd never take orders from a woman."

The problem isn't that he's playing a chauvanist.  If you want to play a character with an unusual viewpoint just once, there isn't any problem with it.  It tends to be more interesting if they don't miraculously coincide with real life prejudices or steriotypes, but do what you want.

The problem is that Mr. Buff Male Warrior is talking as though everyone in the world should share his viewpoints.  His character would know differently.  That is poor role-play.

How do you react to it in-game?  I would suggest doing whatever your close-minded, ignorant commoner usually does when she encounters an idea that is unfamiliar and alien to her.

[Packersfan]

Running Mountain: Tektolnes could be a female there's nothing to disprove that, but if you look at every major civilization in the game, it's been ruled by a male King or Lord. Or whatever.

If you consult the docs, it states the following: Quintus' son, aged 22, treacherously slays his father and assumes control of the kingdom, now called Allanak.

Hence, this along with the live grenade I hold in my hand say that Tektolones' is(was) a man.

[marko]

There have been as many powerful female characters as there have been male characters in my experience over the past umm... few years.  

I remember incredibly potent red robes that were female and if you messed with them you were screwed.   I remember heros of the rebellion that were female.  I remember shadowy females who beat the pants off any male shadowy character.

I've met two exceptionally powerful magickers who were female - and we're talking beyond the normal power aspect of a magicker.  These were downright scary with their ability.

My point?  Just because they haven't made the history timeline does not mean that they are not there.

In the end - the game is not dominated by either male or female characters that are powerful.  

If you encounter sexism you may react to it however you wish but it is not the norm - the view of male superiority has not developed in the game world.

[bloodfromstone]

Perhaps not poor roleplay, as uneducated. Obviously, it doesn't click with the world right, and, for that reason, the character is probably being roleplaying incorrectly, but I wouldn't instantly say the person was a bad roleplayer. They might just not have read the documents, or maybe they're still getting used to the world.

[moab]

White robes are all female (in Tuluk) and higher ranking.

Of the four red robes I've met, three were female.  And far scarier than the male.

And to the point - to the freak who can't seperate RL from IG (and needs to get a new RL philosophy as well) have the smack put on his ass by some female badass.

There you go.

[UnderSeven]

Okay, because of the insistance on naming specific male bad asses I will now name female bad asses.

Mordaga of blackwing the sun-darkened elven woman.  Feel like dying?  She was not only a terror during her time across the entire game, but she also led.  

Malka and Miannon are also great blackwing examples.

Ra, yes, I do mean the krathi, don't know who I meant?  All you need to know, she was a female who was no slouch.  

I'm going to butcher names to say alchione?  Alci.. Well whomever she was her player still plays this game, alkeyone?  Whatever.  

The point is there have been plenty of female leaders and female bad asses on this game.  

The staff position was stated, but I just couldn't let this go without bringing mention to some of those greats.

[flurry]

With a newish player who is still getting used to all the ins and outs of Zalanthas, I can sort of understand it.  

With a well established player who knows better, it just seems on par with the hairy dwarf or the kank-riding elf.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts and replies so far.  Frankly, I was surprised at how quickly folks responded; good stuff!  Take care, all.

[Bluefae]

Oops, sorry about the anon. post.   :wink:

[Packersfan]

White robes are all female (in Tuluk) and higher ranking.

There you go.

White robe is a term used for 'Nakki Templars on special assignment, outside of the caste system of blue, red, and the all powerful black. In Tuluk, they are referred to as Templars of the Lirathen Order (white moon Lirathu).

[Vesperas]

The way I see it, there is going to be a FEW sexist characters in Armageddon, in both directions, just as there will be characters who are racist against their own kind (for whatever reason), their own mothers, and their own nationality (or citizenship, or whatever you call it).  It's not bad RP if its well-done... the player should realize his activity is not the norm in the world, and should compensate accordingly -- i.e, his character (unless very stupid or unaware) would know his views were "off," and may wish to only share them in appropriate circumstances.  Bite the bullet, in other words.  Unless he was just stubborn.


[flame removed by staff moderator]

[RunningMountain]

[reply to flame removed by staff moderator]

[Ritley]

On Arm I tend to try and treat both sexes equal. Sure us men may be stronger and are usually better at maps and things that require maximum concetration, but they compensate with the ability to do two things at once and their higher organisation skills. I'm not sexist in anyway and in RL I treat men and woman different because they are different. On Arm I treat them the same.

[Gaare]

Most people in RL don't run around trying to kill other people with bone swords, either, but players generally have no problem adjusting to that particularly heinous act in Zalanthas.

Is it that hard to accept woman and man equality?

[My 2 sids]

Alright, here goes:  I believe there are two reasons that no matter how many times people scream, "It's in the docs" there will always be some sexism in game.

1.   The realitity is I think it's a lot easier for the players t o relax about sexism than racism... this seeps in to our characters.  In today's world (esp. America) one can have a lot of fun with "battle of the sexes" were as we are conditioned that any mention of racsism is absolutly horrible.  By conditioning we are a lot more comfortable role-playing inequality of the sexes than we are inequality of the races.

2.   Also comming from our own culture is to point out differences in genders  "battle of the sexes, sexism, etc" is a way to flirt.  I'm not saying people don't want equality but people do enjoy gender stereotyping.

[LoD]

Is it that hard to accept woman and man equality?

No.  And yes.  I have always wanted to see more female players leave the stereotype that may perpetuate these kinds of sexist comments/questions in the first place.  One of the issues that comes up is that women don't want to be treated poorly for being a woman, but they seem perfectly content to be treated well by preying upon the male player's reaction to conventional body language, dress and action.

While I suppose you could argue that all nobles, aides, merchants and wealthier folk may walk around in silks, jewelry, gloves, shawls, parasols and the like, many female PC's still differentiate themselves from their male counterparts by dress and deed.  This is confusing to the males.  What are some of the newer players supposed to think if a female player is acting dainty, crossing her legs, wearing soft gowns or dresses, giggling behind her hand, batting her eyes and pouting.  Couple this with a somewhat unrealistic trend for female PC's to look like super models with ample breasts, flawless skin, nice teeth, flowing hair, sparkling eyes, rosy cheeks and all the rest of the trimmings, and you have a male player trying to interpret mixed signals.

Now, I'm not saying that a female PC emoting any of the above actions is acting out of character, but that those actions carry with them messages that may be misinterpreted or perpetuate a male's belief that this female is "soft, helpless, dainty, flirtacious, a sex symbol or weak".  This comes from the way males view and interact with females in RL, which is the only point of reference any of us have.  To a degree, this gives female players a somewhat unfair advantage because they can say that their character is just being manipulative or intelligent by using their long lashes, swaying hips and soft laugh to illicit a sympathetic response from a male character.  

The problem is that these actions hold a particular significance to how males and females interact in the real world.   I'm neither claiming that females should play more to the masculine side nor that males should be more sensitive to somehow close the gap.  I just think it's important to understand that some actions, methods of speech and decisions made by female players will trigger responses in a potentially sexist way from male players because the body language, choice of words and dress may closely resemble or mirror RL -- the only point of reference any of us have had on how men and women should act, dress, talk, sit, stand, date, love, hate, fight, die, laugh, cry, walk, run, win and lose.

Just something for the females of the MUD to consider when you feel a male player is being out of line or out of character with sexist remarks.

-LoD

[sarahjc]

I think every time this topic comes up RunningMountain has always been an advocate of the opposed opinion to what the docs say. However, in recent times, he's settled into it a good deal and while still opposed to the idea, seems to embrace it for what it is.  So, while RM is indeed a chauvinist when it comes to matters of physical strength, at least he is trying IC'ly to be OK with the concept. And yes, most men are physically more powerful then women in RL.

Now if you ask him if men are smarter than women?? Heh.. You would have to have met RM to laugh at that one. (joking, friendly banter, haha)    Anyways, good to see him not biting into a really bad/unnecessary flame.


But off the Derail and onto the topic question.

Now, after some further discussion it became clear that the sole objection Buff Male Warrior had was that the person in question was female.  At this point, I know some might say "Ah ha, but perhaps Buff Male Warrior is playing the odd chauvinist!"  Granted, this could be the case, and if so, more power to him.  However, that doesn't answer the larger question.

How should one best handle these situations?  If a PC, as opposed to a character, is bringing his (or her, for that matter) sexism into the game, is there a graceful way to manage the interaction?  My first instinct was to play it out the way my PC would:  in this case, she simply made a joke of it IC, and went on about her business, but it stuck with me enough to write this post.  

Since it is the common knowledge that there is no battle of the sexes on Zalanthas. I would act it out as a Joke, shake my head and say something like, "Next thing you know.. Elves will be riding kanks." To try and give the other player insight to the fact that what they are expressing is not the norm. Maybe offer a polite OOC on it saying, "I am not sure if you are aware, but men and women are equals on Zalanthas in all ways, as per the docs. It would be very odd for a male PC to prejudice a female one based solely on gender."

If it is a terribly involved issue, say a Byn Sergeant is taking your PC off of harsh missions because of her sex, then you need to send a mail to your Imms. The person simply might not know that strength and power are all equal on Zalanthas or they are not abiding the rules on purpose.


The discussion on why it's hard to accept:

A few basic reasons:

1. As with all Mud/H&S/D&D type things, it's a boys realm. Boy fantasy land where all the girls have big breasts, curvy hips and hold hankies in distress while wearing just about nothing else but that hankie.

2. Girls who play Mud/H&S/D&D type things tend to promote the hankie toting concept. Girls like to be pretty, like to be feminine, like to be curvy. Not all of us and not all the time mind you, but we do. I can't say I play a good deal of F'me PC's. But I won't say I haven't played any, nor that I won't play more of them. And my first few were indeed the hated stereotype, right down to the frail bone structure and petite height.

3. Women are naturally smaller. It seems disproportionately odd that someone with half the muscle mass could be as strong, if not stronger than some rippling muscled man.

4. A good proportion of the women in the game use sex or sexual temptation as a means of manipulation instead of relying on other things such as money or strength. And that's basically because, well frankly...it works.  If you are going to fall victim to it, you can bank damn well that I am going to use it as a weapon.

A few basic ways to Break the mold:

1. Try a few PC's that break the stereo type. You might like them.  Girls, try playing someone hard, someone big, someone ugly. My favorite Race is HG, and one of my fav PC was flat out ugly. Boys, try for a lighter, weaker role. Play someone spindly and frail. If we all stay in meaty man, curvy woman format, of course it's going to be hard to see things differently.

2. Don't promote the things you don't like. If you don't want to have mudsex with the F'me warriors, there will be less of them. Who wants to be pretty when all the ugly, butch chicks get the guys? I subconsciously avoid PC's with the wax perfect main desc, male or female. I'm always drawn to the perfectly flawed people. I feel they will be more interesting to speak with, however it all depends on what your station in life is really.

3. Don't be what you are not. One thing I have to agree with RM on is that if you are playing the part. PLAY IT.  If you are going to play a Rough and Tumble Bynner. Have MUSCLES, be LARGE, be DAMAGED. Look like you shouldn't be fucked with. If you are going to play the outdoor ranger, Have SCARS, look WEATHERED, have MUSCLES.  If you are playing a Merchant/Aide male or female that loves silks ad fine wine, be FRAIL, be DELICATE, be SOFT.  Think about what your PC's life would have honestly been before you write out a main desc.


LoD's point is extremely valid. You can't complain about being a damsel in distress when you act like one. It is a mixed signal from the female side of the player base. However on the flipside of that, the male player base does just as little to prevent the opposite. For as many F-me's as there are about, there is an equal lacking of men that opt for the less than perfect physique of sinewy musculature and masculine jawline.  

So, if you want a change, promote it with yourself. My current is a sexy bitch, and strangely enough I've managed to do it without ever batting an eyelash and just about never crossing my legs.  :wink:

[ale six]

I was going to reply, and then sarahjc wrote everything I would have said to the letter and then some. *highfive*

The damsel-in-distress / manipulation by sex tactic works as well in Arm as it does in RL, and maybe that's the problem, because if the sexes really were equal in Zalanthas it might not be so effective. Or at least, it should be countered by a number of sexerifically hot men using their rock-hard bodies, Vin Diesel voices, and charming demeanors to seduce and manipulate women in turn. (Where are you guys? Huh?   )

But yeah, great posts by both LoD and sarahjc.

[My 2 sids]

Alright, real-life woman/ feminist here...

Now in reality I always will strive to keep fighting for equality in the sexes; but, I'm not a she-Nazi.  There are some differences between genders that I think are good to hold onto.  For instance I like a guy who can show emotions... but PC or not I'll admit I don't want to watch chick-flicks with him.  I think the main thing that our society is realizing (opposed to say the eighties) is that there is a sort of familiarity and comfort to be able to have fun with gender stereotypes without eliminating them all together or using them in a way to really put one gender above or below another.

Another thing, this is a fantasy game.  And you know what, regardless of what the Docs say or what kind of world the game takes place in or what the players are willing to admit...  I think the fantasies of being able to play a princess or a knight in shining armor or a manly-man or a tom-boy slightly out of her element still appeals to people.

[Rindan]

I rented a Dave Chappele standup recently.  It is great stuff.  This is a part in it where he talks about how confusing women are these days.  He tells a story about how he goes to a club, sees a woman scantily clad, and goes up to speak to her automatically assuming that she is kind of a slut.

The girl says, "Wait a minute! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a whore!" Which is true. Gentlemen, that is true. Just because they dress a certain way doesn't mean they are a certain way. Don't ever forget it. But ladies, you must understand that that is fucking confusing! It just is. Now that would be like me, Dave Chappele the comedian, walking down the street in a cop uniform. Somebody might run up on me, saying "Oh, thank God. Officer, help us! Come on. They're over here. Help us!" "OHH!! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!"

All right, ladies, fine. You are not a whore....

But you are wearing a whore's uniform, I'll tell you that.

It is better if you watch to it, but you get the idea, and I think it is applicable to Armageddon.  I have met piles of vulgar dirty men who make a living killing other humans.  Proportionally though, I have met far fewer ugly dirty and vulgar women.  I could probably count the number of women that match the vulgarity and the violent tendencies of my average mercenary on one hand.  Don't get me wrong, I have seen some women play some awesome thugs, mercenaries, and scoundrels.  That said, I have seen a lot more women play noble aids that walk into the Gaj (literally) wearing silk and slippers.  Stereotypes are being reinforced by all parties.

All of that said, I don't think that there is much that can be done.  People just need to be aware of their bias and fight against it.  If the women of Armageddon are more inclined to play curvy and sexy women who wander around in silk, and the men are more likely to play hideous masses of muscle that one time killed a man just to watch him die, I don't think anything should be done to stop them.  The roles we pick are very likely influenced by gender stereotyping and fantasies that we have in the real world.  If being a rippling wall of hideous manly muscle looking to reign down death is what someone fantasize about, I highly doubt there is much that can be done to convince them to play a scrawny girlie guy for the sake of preserving atmosphere.  Personally, I think the only realistic solution is for men to simply do some more gender bending.  Play that wall of hideous muscle, but just hit f instead of m in the character creation screen.

[Ritley]

I think every time this topic comes up RunningMountain has always been an advocate of the opposed opinion to what the docs say. However, in recent times, he's settled into it a good deal and while still opposed to the idea, seems to embrace it for what it is.  So, while RM is indeed a chauvinist when it comes to matters of physical strength, at least he is trying IC'ly to be OK with the concept. And yes, most men are physically more powerful then women in RL.

Yeah I think the sexes are the same is the worst bit about Arm.... because they are not. They're equal, but they're diffferent. And so they should be treated different. A Arm woman will still have breasts. And some will be very pretty and have very large breasts. Which makes them different. Men are almost always stronger than woman. In Arm they still have to be because they have testrostiom. If they didn't they wouldn't be men they would be boys. And they wouldn't be able to have children. The fact is Arm men are still going to be stronger than woman in general. And woman are still going to be able to do two things at once. However I am still faithful to the documents and treat them equal..... even if they are different.

[sarahjc]

Hrm, not exactly what I was saying Ritely. I was giving examples as to how people obscure what is to be the norm by making themselves as the overwhelming majority into what is abnormal. Hulking, massive men and dainty frail women. When Zalanthan folks, IMHO should have an over all wiry, willowy, tight skinned form, less you are well to do, or really good at feeding yourself.  There are no steroids or breast implants on a post apocalyptic desert planet. Last I checked, the only work out equiptment around is large logs of wood. Chances are your jaw has been broken a few times, your teeth aren't perfect and there is also a shortage on firming skin lotion.

It's hard for people to follow the documented rules, when so many PC's don't appear to be what those rules are protecting against.

That said, when you see the badass byner you -must- and rightfully assume she/he can squarely kick your ass regardless of gender. But in my opinion, that is what they should look like. Rough and tumble.

On the flipside of that, if I see your PC dressed in silks with smooth skin, delicate bones and soft wavy hair all the time, I am going to peg you with damsel status. Male or Female, I'm going to think you are weak.

And I think that's fair. Now, whether or not the majority of the players in those roles are male or female, is not my problem. But I can see where the confusion sets in and the automatic assumptions come into play from the male player base, when so many female players choose the latter role.

I can easily look past muscle mass as an issue. You may be bigger (by main desc), but slower or just fatter. You should never be dumb enough to think that because a female PC is smaller/thinner than your male one(by main desc) that she is weaker.  Stat's don't even support that opinion.

I like the idea that the sexes are equal on arm. I just wish the playerbase as a whole would take it into consideration more and play out those different options and roles making the over all rules match the feel of the play enviroment.

But people are going to play what they want to because it's fun for them, and we are all here to have fun. So, for the most part, I suspect things will stay a good deal the same.

[bloodfromstone]

Yeah I think the sexes are the same is the worst bit about Arm

I actually agree with this. As much as I love the game, and as much as I will play according to the docs, I don't like the sexual equality. It's a good idea, in concept, but when it is virtually never supported IG, it's hard to shake. Most female PC's have perfect skin and manicured nails. I don't think I've ever seen a male PC described like that. It's similar to the number of virtual city elves in Allanak. I all but forget they're supposed to be there, because they're not.

That said, I agree with sarahjc wholeheartly. If the docs say genders are equal, let's see some role reversal. I haven't seen enough beautiful men trying to sleep with Ladies to get to the top. I haven't seen enough (though I've seen a few good ones) rough-tough female warriors. Hell, I haven't seen enough bi/gay characters.

On the flip side, I disagree that people should just hit f instead of m on character creation to try to weed out some of these problems. While the genders are equal, they're not the same. From my (somewhat limited) experience, women and men are still very different creatures, even if they're considered equal. They tend to think different, act a little different. They'll react differently to certain situations. I mean, the only difference between the genders isn't whether or not you see he/she when you assess them, right? Or have I been playing this all wrong?

[Ritley]

I like the idea that the sexes are equal on arm. I just wish the playerbase as a whole would take it into consideration more and play out those different options and roles making the over all rules match the feel of the play enviroment.

But people are going to play what they want to because it's fun for them, and we are all here to have fun. So, for the most part, I suspect things will stay a good deal the same.

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

[sarahjc]

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

I'm not really taking facial appearance into this, some people are naturally pretty. I don't think that every female PC should have veins popping out of her neck. I've never played a PC that was a man with long hair.  You can be feminine and give the appearance of being rugged and strong. You can be masculine without having a barrel like chest and cannons for arms.

You can mix it up. A good deal of my PCs are attractive, some aren't, that said, dress up either kind in a bunch of silks and you know it's not their daily gear. Meet one in the middle of the desert and you aren't going to think, "Oh.. It's just a girl and she's pretty, I bet she's lost."

There is nothing wrong with equal gender and there is nothing wrong with being attractive or even sexual. The problem lies in the lack of weaker males in the physical aspect of game and the plethora of females in that role.

It is the constant relying solely on sexual prowess and the frailness of a good deal of female pc's however that gives fodder to the "women are not equal" argument.

That in and of it self makes the equality rule very difficult follow and in fact makes it harder for the people who play the opposite of those roles to fit in as they should.

[Ritley]

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

I'm not really taking facial appearance into this, some people are naturally pretty. I don't think that every female PC should have veins popping out of her neck. I've never played a PC that was a man with long hair.  You can be feminine and give the appearance of being rugged and strong. You can be masculine without having a barrel like chest and cannons for arms.

You can mix it up. A good deal of my PCs are attractive, some aren't, that said, dress up either kind in a bunch of silks and you know it's not their daily gear. Meet one in the middle of the desert and you aren't going to think, "Oh.. It's just a girl and she's pretty, I bet she's lost."

There is nothing wrong with equal gender and there is nothing wrong with being attractive or even sexual. The problem lies in the lack of weaker males in the physical aspect of game and the plethora of females in that role.

That in and of it self makes the equality rule very difficult follow and in fact makes it harder for the people who play the opposite of those roles to fit in as they should.

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

[sarahjc]

Testosterone. And women also have testosterone in their bodies, else we'd be soft fleshy things. You could say that women perhaps produce more of it on Zalanthas? Maybe some men produce less?

And no doubt we win the debate on smarts, yeah?  :wink:

[Ritley]

Testosterone. And women also have testosterone in their bodies, else we'd be soft fleshy things. You could say that women perhaps produce more of it on Zalanthas? Maybe some men produce less?

And no doubt we win the debate on smarts, yeah?  :wink:

Well I'm not going to argue anymore. Your probably going to win anyway because you are female. Wait maybe your half female! hmm.

[moab]

I doubt any of us know what men and women have in their bodies chemically.  And  I bet none of our characters could figure it out, either.

To assume someone has testosterone is to forget to leave the RL at the login screen.

We don't know why woman and men are equal.  We can see how they are (or are not) in the game and make assumptions on in game reasons.  However, to try and draw some relationship between a RL and the IG world is probably a mistake.

There are a slew of things that work differently in the IG world than in the RL (magick being one, health being another, body comp being yet another).  I think we need to keep these things separate or we end up with a big freaking  gordian knot.

[RunningMountain]

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

Women can be equally as strong on armageddon as a man can. And equally as fast. But I think their wisdom can go to 22 while males only go to 20.

[Ritley]

I doubt any of us know what men and women have in their bodies chemically.  And  I bet none of our characters could figure it out, either.

To assume someone has testosterone is to forget to leave the RL at the login screen.

We don't know why woman and men are equal.  We can see how they are (or are not) in the game and make assumptions on in game reasons.  However, to try and draw some relationship between a RL and the IG world is probably a mistake.

There are a slew of things that work differently in the IG world than in the RL (magick being one, health being another, body comp being yet another).  I think we need to keep these things separate or we end up with a big freaking  gordian knot.

Well, I'm sure Sarahjc does because she's half of each  :wink:  nah I'm kidding.

[Armaddict]

Didn't read over this thread too much, just the opening post and the staff opinion, and I wanted to offer a viewpoint.

On earth, there are racist views.  There are racists.  There are white people that believe african-americans are inferior, or that mexicans are inferior, and vice versa.

The situation pointed out should be looked at like that.  Someone who is taking two demographics that are equal, and making one inferior.  Therefore, my roleplay around the situation would likely be centered around disgust for that other character's ignorance or stupidity.  Assuming, of course, that I did not have a character with a similar belief.

To state that this mindset -should not exist- in game is another attempt at censoring out an issue because it may offend someone or something similar, in my opinion.  However, racist beliefs -should not exist- in real life, and yet they do.  Treat it as IC bigotry, and nothing more.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Testrostiom is a highly unstable chemical element, prone to bonding with estorgium molecules at an alarming rate, often inflicting damage to other testrostiom molecules.

[moab]

produced in the testrums, right?

[My 2 sids]

I think we have to make some clearifications here...  sexism/racism/ageism/ "anything"-ism  is NOT the same as simply understanding and accepting that there are differences and then stereotypes do have their places in ALL societies (real or fantasy).


Not every Arm person here is the stereotypical geek with the mega computer and nothing to do on the weekends except role-play.  But, I'm willing to bet there are enough who fit that bill that we can all joke around with the stereotype.

[Ritley]

produced in the testrums, right?

Yeah.    I don't know why, but when I look at that quote it makes me laugh. Maybe I'm just weird. Anyway females produce estrogen we produce testostrom.  And if woman had more testostrom in Zalanthas than in Earth like SarahJC said then I doubt their would be any Zalanthas children so maybe SarahJC is wrong. I think overdosage of testostrogen would make a woman fancy other woman. Maybe I'm wrong.

[moab]

*bangs head on wall*

[Rindan]

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

You are missing the point Ritley, it has been stated and is documented that in game, men and women are equals in strength.  Period.  End of story.  As to the physical reason why this is true?  Who cares?  Make something up.  Maybe Zalanthas women have an extra hormone gives them a strength boost to make them equals to men.  Whatever the case, the code and the documentation all agree; for whatever reason, an average Zalanthas woman is just as strong an average Zalanthas man.

[sarahjc]

*bangs head on wall*

*falls down laughing and dies of stomach pains*

Actually here is the scientific reasoning.

The testostroms in my body are uber strong and have awesome stats. They also have maxed out on their weapons skills and work out all day. The Estrogoms are kinda lazy and like to eat bonbons. They also feel that they can get by with swinging their asses around and that 2 point wisdom bonus that RM talks about.

Anyway, basically one day the Testostroms got into a fight with the Estrogoms and they totally kicked ass. But because the Testostroms were not as smart as the Estrogoms they accidentally made a mistake with my genetic coding and I grew a tremendously large, yet flaccid penis out of my left ear.

Which is about as useless as the last few posts at the end of this thread, but I thought Ritley would like to know about my body chemistry. But basically this is a call to get off Ritleys (purposeful) misspelling? and back on topic.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A basic tenet of human nature seems to be that any difference is grounds for bias.  Race, gender, religion, country of origin, social class.  The Japanese look down on gaijin, Moslems look down on infidels, the rich look down on the poor, communists hate capitalists, women look down on men, men look down on women, the geeks hate the jocks, the jocks hate the goths, and no one likes emo.

Every aspect of this is mirrored in Zalanthas with one notable exception.  Allanaki thumb their noses at Tuluk, templars sneer at rinthers, elves look down on dwarves, magickers are regularly discriminated against, and drov take you if you worship anything but Tek or Muk in one of the cities.  Yet when it comes to gender bias, we're told that because men and women are equal, people just don't do that.  Now I'll grant that this is a game and the imms make the rules and as such, they're free to declare that gender bias doesn't exist, or would be the exception rather than the norm.

Nevertheless, such a stance lacks consistency.  No one gets offended when some trooper in the Byn says, "I'm not taking orders from that Sergeant, he/she is a {northerner, elf, mutant, bard, rinther, spice-addict, idiot}."  But oh holy crap, send in the marines if someone should utter, "I'm not taking orders from that Sergeant, he/she is a man/woman."  To me, saying that men and women are equal doesn't equate lack of prejudices.  It just says that misogyny and misandry should exist in equal measure.

That being said, that's just my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong.  I have no intention of being the elf-riding kank or the misogynist unless the documentation reflects that that attitude is acceptable in game.

[LoD]

Even Arm men have tesostriom.

There probably isn't enough evidence or documentation on estrogen and testosterone levels in Zalanthan men/women to make claims that one is physically stronger than another.  Hundreds or thousands of years of microevolution have probably granted both genders the appropriate level of physical strength, agility and endurance to both compete and survive on our harsh, but fantastical, desert world.

I choose the word fantastical to remind people that Zalanthas isn't Earth.  Zalanthan humans do not assume any inherent qualities, cultural beliefs or physiological components from Earth humans.  And that's hard to believe.  Zalanthan humans have ears, feet, blood, hearts, emotions, jobs, houses and many other similarities toward Earth humans.  Who would've guessed at the physiological and cultural changes if no one was properly instructed?  Who would know how to interact in a society where men haven't dominated every major decision making entity?

We often forgot that Zalanthan humans may be as far removed from Earth humans as elves, dwarves, gith and the other sentient races in every other category save appearance.

That said, I agree with you that men and women of Zalanthas will have their differences.  What those are is difficult to say because unless you go with conventional explanations (which is all we have), what is the alternative?  The alternative is -creating- a new social order that somehow everyone has to learn without instruction.  And not only learn, but put these sophisticated rules on social interaction into practice when they almost completely contradict everything the player knows to be true.

If you see a man and a woman both trip, which are more likely to help?

If a woman kisses her girl friend goodbye, do you think twice?  What if a guy kissed his guy friend goodbye?

If you put RISK and a Sex in the City Trivia Game on a table and told a man and woman to each pick one, which would the other most likely pick?

If a woman grabs your ass and you hit her, are you an asshole?  What about if a guy grabs your ass?

These are just a few questions that demonstrate gender and social roles in Western society that we take for granted.  Little things we've been taught for years and years.  Things we've learned from our family, friends, TV, media coverage, books, classrooms, etc...

This isn't the same as people accepting magick, increased psionic capacity, gigantic insect mounts, dictatorial governments or any of the other aspects of the game many of us have never experienced first hand.  It's taking something all of us have learned, to some degree, over the course of entire lives and changing it all around.  It may sound simple to say, "Just treat women equal to men." but it's not that easy.  You'd be surprised how much is involved in changing a social order.  I mean, take an American female and place her into Jordan and let her see how that culture treats her for a few months.  And that's LESS of a change than is proposed by there being not only cultural differences, but phsiological differences.

This is making it seem far more complicated that it should ever be, but it may demonstrate why something like this may be difficult to truly wrap your head around and RP correctly.  It's hard and, really, not worth the effort for the reward to most.

-LoD

[Larrath]

Men and women are identical in all physical respects, with the exception of reproductive organs and boobies.
Why?  A sorcerer did it.

Their social standing is completely identical, and has been this way as far as anyone can remember.   Why?  A mindbender did it.

I don't care if you post fifty thousand good reasons why real-life men are often stronger than real-life women, or why real-life sexism exists.

Get over yourselves and play by the documentations.  Anything you can learn or infer about the game, in this case, will not override the fact that men and women are identical in-game.  There could be fifty more Sorcerer-Kings, and a thousand other famous and infamous Thrainesque PCs, and it would not matter.

Silk-wearing women should not be treated more politely than silk-wearing men.  Some people, IG, are frail and should be treated as such.  Some people are not, and should not be treated that way.
Refusing to take orders from a woman ICly should be considered just as retarded as refusing to take orders from a man IRL because their arm has been broken once.

[RunningMountain]

I prefer playing PCs that refuse to take orders from men and women. Not because women are inferior but because he thinks everyone is inferior.

[O]

As to how to rp it, why not sling it right back at him!

You can assume he's either taking the royal piss, or is slightly cuckoo, and there's loads of enjoyment to be had from that.

[bloodfromstone]

Nicely said, JGG.

[Marauder Moe]

Sexism isn't the only real-life prejudice missing in Armageddon.  There's also no racism (the skin-color kind, not the ear-shape kind).  Zalanthans don't look down on prostitutes (any more than a commoner of any other profession).  Zalanthans don't make personal assumptions based on hair color (red-headed step child, etc).  There's no distrust of left-handed people in Zalanthas.  No stigma attached to homosexuality either.

Its interesting that the sexism issue comes up on the GDB far more often than these other issues, or so it seems.  I'll refrain from social commentary, though.  :roll:

[Seeker]

Now, the point of this thread isn't to ignite yet another "Are women equal?" back-and-forth; rather, it's to ask about the handling of a specific dynamic. To wit:

(Physically Weak Female): "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior): "A [high rank]? That's weird, you don't see that very often. I'd never take orders from a woman."

The problem isn't that Buff Male Warrior won't take orders from a woman.  That's fine (see JGG's excellent post above).

The problem is that Buff Male Warrior is full of shit.

"A [high rank]? That's weird, you don't see that very often..."

(Physically Weak Female, pointing): "Oh?  Well how about those six over there?"


Seeker

[Agent_137]

it seems to me some experienced roleplayers will use the lack of PC examples as a good excuse to have their character believe in something that doesn't follow the docs. But I urge them to mentally be aware of all the virtual examples that are pefectly inline with the docs, and are more numerous than the PC examples.

And yes, the perfect answer to the initial question is in the above post. Just use virtual examples. Make them up, if you have to.

[Naiona]

The following is personal opinion and not official staff policy:

Anyone is welcome to pretend that all female characters are weak and incompetent in game.    Some of them won't mind.  Some of them will.  All of them will likely think that the person with those views is either insane or an idiot.  It will, however - make it all that much easier for all of them to kill you.

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma?  Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Leave your real-world perceptions behind.  If you want to think someone is weak because they are dressing in silk and giggling - go for it.  Either a male or female is capable of playing a foppish and fragile character (or playing someone pretending to be foppish and fragile as a front).  Just don't use their gender as your reason for such a dangerous assumption.

[Pantoufle]

I've actually only read the very first and very last posts so far.  I agree with Naiona's sentiments 100%.  Having said that, the situation described by the author may have been a one time incident, only, from a character who, perhaps (perhaps not), let a real world perception accidently slip into the game without thinking.  Everyone does this, including the devout feminists of the game.  Try as we might, real world perceptions will continue to plague us in game, it's just a question of how much is too much.  No need to call the cavalry unless its a constant issue, I think.  Is one slight comment enough to raise the alarms?  I would only consider it a "big deal" if the character continued with this line of thinking, regularly making chauvenistic comments and even going so far as to demonstrate it with his authority by refusing to recruit/promote female characters.

In the same line of thinking suggested by Naiona, I would simply roleplay the individual as being a wacko.  But I'd also then likely roleplay forgetting the comment was even made a day later unless the character in question persisted.  I've a feeling, Bluefae, that if the player reads this thread, rest assured, he'll stop immediately.  There are plenty of incidents where we all forget real world vs. game world from time to time.  It's best to approach these issues delicately because (almost) nobody does it conscously.  One thing that really gets to me is when a male character refers to his clan buddies as the 'Men' or the 'Boys'.  I've even heard some male character say that they're going to 'Round up a few men' to .. do whatever.  At the same time, I couldn't ever bother to actually e-mail in a complaint to the MUD account about it.  It's irkesome, but not enough for me to make an official gripe about it.  I realise that's not as extreme as the chauvenist example in the original post but, again, wait until it's a serious problem before jumping the guns.

[bloodfromstone]

As far as 'rounding up the men' is concerned, I've heard it used many times, sometimes by a female leader talking to a female clan member. It's not really an appropriate term due to the game world, but unfortunately we're mostly limited to the words and phrases used in RL. 'Rounding up a few people' won't instantly give us the impression that they're all part of the clan/military. It's the best English phrase I can think of to get across the what the PC is trying to say. While it's not the best choice to use IG, I can completely understand how someone would say it and not actually be bringing OOC sexism into the game.

[My 2 sids]

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma? Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Not to derail but is this thread about theology or about actual practice???

I have posted questioning the theology behind the Docs not to cause trouble in game (or to even reflect on my characters at all) but because I thought we were having a discussion.

[Sanvean]

The original question was whether the cited example was bad play and how to handle it.  I think that question's been answered sufficiently and in a way that demonstrates that the answer is not going to change, no matter how much wheel spinning regarding the philosophy behind one of the game's basic premises occurs.

Since then various digressions have been made in the directions of RL sexism, the whys and wherefores of Zalanthan language, the difficulty of releasing RL beliefs, gender-inclusive/exclusive language, etc. - I'm sure that I'm overlooking a few.  To my mind the thread's done and answered and anything else is going to be just noise of the type people have been complaining about.

Naiona states it well and I think I've made a stab at it too: Yes, there can be exceptions.  If you are running one of these then it needs to be played in a way that acknowledges that this is not the norm.  If you're consistently playing this kind of exception, then it raises some questions about your roleplay and we encourage you to try breaking away from that pattern.

[Ritley]

Anyone is welcome to pretend that my female characters are weak and incompetent in game.    Some of them won't mind.  Some of them will.  All of them will likely think that the person with those views is either insane or an idiot.  It will, however - make it all that much easier for all of them to kill you.

I pose this question to some of you who insist you will play in this manner that so clearly contradicts documentation and stated Overlord policy:

Are you one of the people who complains that they have difficulty getting approved for special roles and karma?  Do you wonder why?

You can be the kank-riding elf, but it will be difficult for you to convince staff that you will play otherwise true to the spirit of the game in a special or powerful role if you can't follow the most basic and clearly documented conventions in a mundane role.

Leave your real-world perceptions behind.  If you want to think someone is weak because they are dressing in silk and giggling - go for it.  Either a male or female is capable of playing a foppish and fragile character (or playing someone pretending to be foppish and fragile as a front).  Just don't use their gender as your reason for such a dangerous assumption.

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well? but then again judging by the girls I see in Arm it kinda dismisses that belief.... but I have always treated men and woman equal in Arm. In fact it is affecting the way I treat woman for RL.

[Naiona]

It has been pointed out to me by a player that I mixed my personal opinion with my 'staff opinion' in my previous post (and yes, I did).

To be more clear, my personal opinion is not staff opinion.  I am going back and edit my post a bit, but for those who read it before I offer my apologies if anyone was confused.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

[moab]

It's 2005, right?

Equal does not mean the same, that would be identical.

[Naiona]

Not to derail but is this thread about theology or about actual practice???

I have posted questioning the theology behind the Docs not to cause trouble in game (or to even reflect on my characters at all) but because I thought we were having a discussion.

No one is going to penalize you for discussing an issue in a civilized manner on the GDB.  Trust issues occur based on actions, not opinions expressed in a polite manner here.

[Hexxaex]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

I do like it when I see buff, muscular and scarred women doing mercenary or hunting jobs instead of dainty, delicate maidens all doing aide jobs and sissy crafting stuff.

I actually have seen females with the word maiden in their sdesc, and I don't even have to look at them to figure out they're a merchant or an aide.  It ticks me off how women are being created for those jobs, and men are always looking so dominant physically and status-wise with their fighting jobs.  Lots of Armageddon women are white-toothed, silky-haired, smooth-skinned, voluptious and curvaecous.  Makes me think my character just walked into a Vegas nightclub.

I tend to react oddly to women who are all perfect and sexy, and my characters tend to wonder how they manage to keep themselves like that.  Zalanthas is not a hygene-concious and perfect world, and hats off to the players who make fighting women.  It really helps push the sexism away when I see them.

[jstorrie]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

[Cale_Knight]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

Probably.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just rolled up my first ever female character. Am I going to be really weirded out by how differently she gets treated than my past male characters?

For one thing, you'll get a mudsex offer twice a week as opposed to never.

[Ritley]

I totally agree with Naiona. What I have problems with is the thought that woman look like men in Arm. I mean it says in the documents that Men and Woman are equal. Does that make them look similar as well?

No, I don't believe it does.

I do like it when I see buff, muscular and scarred women doing mercenary or hunting jobs instead of dainty, delicate maidens all doing aide jobs and sissy crafting stuff.

I actually have seen females with the word maiden in their sdesc, and I don't even have to look at them to figure out they're a merchant or an aide.  It ticks me off how women are being created for those jobs, and men are always looking so dominant physically and status-wise with their fighting jobs.  Lots of Armageddon women are white-toothed, silky-haired, smooth-skinned, voluptious and curvaecous.  Makes me think my character just walked into a Vegas nightclub.

I tend to react oddly to women who are all perfect and sexy, and my characters tend to wonder how they manage to keep themselves like that.  Zalanthas is not a hygene-concious and perfect world, and hats off to the players who make fighting women.  It really helps push the sexism away when I see them.

People are naturally pretty you know. Naturally have white teeth and stuff like that. People will probably get quite muscular due to the amount of physical work they are put through a day.

[Medena]

Just a quick tip for Ritley:

You can go into the big block of quoted text and, using either the delete or backspace key, edit it down so only the specific few lines that you are reacting to remain.

That way, the block of quoted text looks far less daunting to subsequent readers and your own message is that much more meaningful.

[Qetesh]

Please do not clutter up threads with big blocks of quoted text, if it can be avoided. I have already gone into this thread a few times and edited a bunch of it out where I could.