How Best To Address Sexism IC and Out

[LoD]

Is it that hard to accept woman and man equality?

No.  And yes.  I have always wanted to see more female players leave the stereotype that may perpetuate these kinds of sexist comments/questions in the first place.  One of the issues that comes up is that women don't want to be treated poorly for being a woman, but they seem perfectly content to be treated well by preying upon the male player's reaction to conventional body language, dress and action.

While I suppose you could argue that all nobles, aides, merchants and wealthier folk may walk around in silks, jewelry, gloves, shawls, parasols and the like, many female PC's still differentiate themselves from their male counterparts by dress and deed.  This is confusing to the males.  What are some of the newer players supposed to think if a female player is acting dainty, crossing her legs, wearing soft gowns or dresses, giggling behind her hand, batting her eyes and pouting.  Couple this with a somewhat unrealistic trend for female PC's to look like super models with ample breasts, flawless skin, nice teeth, flowing hair, sparkling eyes, rosy cheeks and all the rest of the trimmings, and you have a male player trying to interpret mixed signals.

Now, I'm not saying that a female PC emoting any of the above actions is acting out of character, but that those actions carry with them messages that may be misinterpreted or perpetuate a male's belief that this female is "soft, helpless, dainty, flirtacious, a sex symbol or weak".  This comes from the way males view and interact with females in RL, which is the only point of reference any of us have.  To a degree, this gives female players a somewhat unfair advantage because they can say that their character is just being manipulative or intelligent by using their long lashes, swaying hips and soft laugh to illicit a sympathetic response from a male character.  

The problem is that these actions hold a particular significance to how males and females interact in the real world.   I'm neither claiming that females should play more to the masculine side nor that males should be more sensitive to somehow close the gap.  I just think it's important to understand that some actions, methods of speech and decisions made by female players will trigger responses in a potentially sexist way from male players because the body language, choice of words and dress may closely resemble or mirror RL -- the only point of reference any of us have had on how men and women should act, dress, talk, sit, stand, date, love, hate, fight, die, laugh, cry, walk, run, win and lose.

Just something for the females of the MUD to consider when you feel a male player is being out of line or out of character with sexist remarks.

-LoD

[sarahjc]

I think every time this topic comes up RunningMountain has always been an advocate of the opposed opinion to what the docs say. However, in recent times, he's settled into it a good deal and while still opposed to the idea, seems to embrace it for what it is.  So, while RM is indeed a chauvinist when it comes to matters of physical strength, at least he is trying IC'ly to be OK with the concept. And yes, most men are physically more powerful then women in RL.

Now if you ask him if men are smarter than women?? Heh.. You would have to have met RM to laugh at that one. (joking, friendly banter, haha)    Anyways, good to see him not biting into a really bad/unnecessary flame.


But off the Derail and onto the topic question.

Now, after some further discussion it became clear that the sole objection Buff Male Warrior had was that the person in question was female.  At this point, I know some might say "Ah ha, but perhaps Buff Male Warrior is playing the odd chauvinist!"  Granted, this could be the case, and if so, more power to him.  However, that doesn't answer the larger question.

How should one best handle these situations?  If a PC, as opposed to a character, is bringing his (or her, for that matter) sexism into the game, is there a graceful way to manage the interaction?  My first instinct was to play it out the way my PC would:  in this case, she simply made a joke of it IC, and went on about her business, but it stuck with me enough to write this post.  

Since it is the common knowledge that there is no battle of the sexes on Zalanthas. I would act it out as a Joke, shake my head and say something like, "Next thing you know.. Elves will be riding kanks." To try and give the other player insight to the fact that what they are expressing is not the norm. Maybe offer a polite OOC on it saying, "I am not sure if you are aware, but men and women are equals on Zalanthas in all ways, as per the docs. It would be very odd for a male PC to prejudice a female one based solely on gender."

If it is a terribly involved issue, say a Byn Sergeant is taking your PC off of harsh missions because of her sex, then you need to send a mail to your Imms. The person simply might not know that strength and power are all equal on Zalanthas or they are not abiding the rules on purpose.


The discussion on why it's hard to accept:

A few basic reasons:

1. As with all Mud/H&S/D&D type things, it's a boys realm. Boy fantasy land where all the girls have big breasts, curvy hips and hold hankies in distress while wearing just about nothing else but that hankie.

2. Girls who play Mud/H&S/D&D type things tend to promote the hankie toting concept. Girls like to be pretty, like to be feminine, like to be curvy. Not all of us and not all the time mind you, but we do. I can't say I play a good deal of F'me PC's. But I won't say I haven't played any, nor that I won't play more of them. And my first few were indeed the hated stereotype, right down to the frail bone structure and petite height.

3. Women are naturally smaller. It seems disproportionately odd that someone with half the muscle mass could be as strong, if not stronger than some rippling muscled man.

4. A good proportion of the women in the game use sex or sexual temptation as a means of manipulation instead of relying on other things such as money or strength. And that's basically because, well frankly...it works.  If you are going to fall victim to it, you can bank damn well that I am going to use it as a weapon.

A few basic ways to Break the mold:

1. Try a few PC's that break the stereo type. You might like them.  Girls, try playing someone hard, someone big, someone ugly. My favorite Race is HG, and one of my fav PC was flat out ugly. Boys, try for a lighter, weaker role. Play someone spindly and frail. If we all stay in meaty man, curvy woman format, of course it's going to be hard to see things differently.

2. Don't promote the things you don't like. If you don't want to have mudsex with the F'me warriors, there will be less of them. Who wants to be pretty when all the ugly, butch chicks get the guys? I subconsciously avoid PC's with the wax perfect main desc, male or female. I'm always drawn to the perfectly flawed people. I feel they will be more interesting to speak with, however it all depends on what your station in life is really.

3. Don't be what you are not. One thing I have to agree with RM on is that if you are playing the part. PLAY IT.  If you are going to play a Rough and Tumble Bynner. Have MUSCLES, be LARGE, be DAMAGED. Look like you shouldn't be fucked with. If you are going to play the outdoor ranger, Have SCARS, look WEATHERED, have MUSCLES.  If you are playing a Merchant/Aide male or female that loves silks ad fine wine, be FRAIL, be DELICATE, be SOFT.  Think about what your PC's life would have honestly been before you write out a main desc.


LoD's point is extremely valid. You can't complain about being a damsel in distress when you act like one. It is a mixed signal from the female side of the player base. However on the flipside of that, the male player base does just as little to prevent the opposite. For as many F-me's as there are about, there is an equal lacking of men that opt for the less than perfect physique of sinewy musculature and masculine jawline.  

So, if you want a change, promote it with yourself. My current is a sexy bitch, and strangely enough I've managed to do it without ever batting an eyelash and just about never crossing my legs.  :wink:

[ale six]

I was going to reply, and then sarahjc wrote everything I would have said to the letter and then some. *highfive*

The damsel-in-distress / manipulation by sex tactic works as well in Arm as it does in RL, and maybe that's the problem, because if the sexes really were equal in Zalanthas it might not be so effective. Or at least, it should be countered by a number of sexerifically hot men using their rock-hard bodies, Vin Diesel voices, and charming demeanors to seduce and manipulate women in turn. (Where are you guys? Huh?   )

But yeah, great posts by both LoD and sarahjc.

[My 2 sids]

Alright, real-life woman/ feminist here...

Now in reality I always will strive to keep fighting for equality in the sexes; but, I'm not a she-Nazi.  There are some differences between genders that I think are good to hold onto.  For instance I like a guy who can show emotions... but PC or not I'll admit I don't want to watch chick-flicks with him.  I think the main thing that our society is realizing (opposed to say the eighties) is that there is a sort of familiarity and comfort to be able to have fun with gender stereotypes without eliminating them all together or using them in a way to really put one gender above or below another.

Another thing, this is a fantasy game.  And you know what, regardless of what the Docs say or what kind of world the game takes place in or what the players are willing to admit...  I think the fantasies of being able to play a princess or a knight in shining armor or a manly-man or a tom-boy slightly out of her element still appeals to people.

[Rindan]

I rented a Dave Chappele standup recently.  It is great stuff.  This is a part in it where he talks about how confusing women are these days.  He tells a story about how he goes to a club, sees a woman scantily clad, and goes up to speak to her automatically assuming that she is kind of a slut.

The girl says, "Wait a minute! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a whore!" Which is true. Gentlemen, that is true. Just because they dress a certain way doesn't mean they are a certain way. Don't ever forget it. But ladies, you must understand that that is fucking confusing! It just is. Now that would be like me, Dave Chappele the comedian, walking down the street in a cop uniform. Somebody might run up on me, saying "Oh, thank God. Officer, help us! Come on. They're over here. Help us!" "OHH!! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!"

All right, ladies, fine. You are not a whore....

But you are wearing a whore's uniform, I'll tell you that.

It is better if you watch to it, but you get the idea, and I think it is applicable to Armageddon.  I have met piles of vulgar dirty men who make a living killing other humans.  Proportionally though, I have met far fewer ugly dirty and vulgar women.  I could probably count the number of women that match the vulgarity and the violent tendencies of my average mercenary on one hand.  Don't get me wrong, I have seen some women play some awesome thugs, mercenaries, and scoundrels.  That said, I have seen a lot more women play noble aids that walk into the Gaj (literally) wearing silk and slippers.  Stereotypes are being reinforced by all parties.

All of that said, I don't think that there is much that can be done.  People just need to be aware of their bias and fight against it.  If the women of Armageddon are more inclined to play curvy and sexy women who wander around in silk, and the men are more likely to play hideous masses of muscle that one time killed a man just to watch him die, I don't think anything should be done to stop them.  The roles we pick are very likely influenced by gender stereotyping and fantasies that we have in the real world.  If being a rippling wall of hideous manly muscle looking to reign down death is what someone fantasize about, I highly doubt there is much that can be done to convince them to play a scrawny girlie guy for the sake of preserving atmosphere.  Personally, I think the only realistic solution is for men to simply do some more gender bending.  Play that wall of hideous muscle, but just hit f instead of m in the character creation screen.

[Ritley]

I think every time this topic comes up RunningMountain has always been an advocate of the opposed opinion to what the docs say. However, in recent times, he's settled into it a good deal and while still opposed to the idea, seems to embrace it for what it is.  So, while RM is indeed a chauvinist when it comes to matters of physical strength, at least he is trying IC'ly to be OK with the concept. And yes, most men are physically more powerful then women in RL.

Yeah I think the sexes are the same is the worst bit about Arm.... because they are not. They're equal, but they're diffferent. And so they should be treated different. A Arm woman will still have breasts. And some will be very pretty and have very large breasts. Which makes them different. Men are almost always stronger than woman. In Arm they still have to be because they have testrostiom. If they didn't they wouldn't be men they would be boys. And they wouldn't be able to have children. The fact is Arm men are still going to be stronger than woman in general. And woman are still going to be able to do two things at once. However I am still faithful to the documents and treat them equal..... even if they are different.

[sarahjc]

Hrm, not exactly what I was saying Ritely. I was giving examples as to how people obscure what is to be the norm by making themselves as the overwhelming majority into what is abnormal. Hulking, massive men and dainty frail women. When Zalanthan folks, IMHO should have an over all wiry, willowy, tight skinned form, less you are well to do, or really good at feeding yourself.  There are no steroids or breast implants on a post apocalyptic desert planet. Last I checked, the only work out equiptment around is large logs of wood. Chances are your jaw has been broken a few times, your teeth aren't perfect and there is also a shortage on firming skin lotion.

It's hard for people to follow the documented rules, when so many PC's don't appear to be what those rules are protecting against.

That said, when you see the badass byner you -must- and rightfully assume she/he can squarely kick your ass regardless of gender. But in my opinion, that is what they should look like. Rough and tumble.

On the flipside of that, if I see your PC dressed in silks with smooth skin, delicate bones and soft wavy hair all the time, I am going to peg you with damsel status. Male or Female, I'm going to think you are weak.

And I think that's fair. Now, whether or not the majority of the players in those roles are male or female, is not my problem. But I can see where the confusion sets in and the automatic assumptions come into play from the male player base, when so many female players choose the latter role.

I can easily look past muscle mass as an issue. You may be bigger (by main desc), but slower or just fatter. You should never be dumb enough to think that because a female PC is smaller/thinner than your male one(by main desc) that she is weaker.  Stat's don't even support that opinion.

I like the idea that the sexes are equal on arm. I just wish the playerbase as a whole would take it into consideration more and play out those different options and roles making the over all rules match the feel of the play enviroment.

But people are going to play what they want to because it's fun for them, and we are all here to have fun. So, for the most part, I suspect things will stay a good deal the same.

[bloodfromstone]

Yeah I think the sexes are the same is the worst bit about Arm

I actually agree with this. As much as I love the game, and as much as I will play according to the docs, I don't like the sexual equality. It's a good idea, in concept, but when it is virtually never supported IG, it's hard to shake. Most female PC's have perfect skin and manicured nails. I don't think I've ever seen a male PC described like that. It's similar to the number of virtual city elves in Allanak. I all but forget they're supposed to be there, because they're not.

That said, I agree with sarahjc wholeheartly. If the docs say genders are equal, let's see some role reversal. I haven't seen enough beautiful men trying to sleep with Ladies to get to the top. I haven't seen enough (though I've seen a few good ones) rough-tough female warriors. Hell, I haven't seen enough bi/gay characters.

On the flip side, I disagree that people should just hit f instead of m on character creation to try to weed out some of these problems. While the genders are equal, they're not the same. From my (somewhat limited) experience, women and men are still very different creatures, even if they're considered equal. They tend to think different, act a little different. They'll react differently to certain situations. I mean, the only difference between the genders isn't whether or not you see he/she when you assess them, right? Or have I been playing this all wrong?

[Ritley]

I like the idea that the sexes are equal on arm. I just wish the playerbase as a whole would take it into consideration more and play out those different options and roles making the over all rules match the feel of the play enviroment.

But people are going to play what they want to because it's fun for them, and we are all here to have fun. So, for the most part, I suspect things will stay a good deal the same.

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

[sarahjc]

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

I'm not really taking facial appearance into this, some people are naturally pretty. I don't think that every female PC should have veins popping out of her neck. I've never played a PC that was a man with long hair.  You can be feminine and give the appearance of being rugged and strong. You can be masculine without having a barrel like chest and cannons for arms.

You can mix it up. A good deal of my PCs are attractive, some aren't, that said, dress up either kind in a bunch of silks and you know it's not their daily gear. Meet one in the middle of the desert and you aren't going to think, "Oh.. It's just a girl and she's pretty, I bet she's lost."

There is nothing wrong with equal gender and there is nothing wrong with being attractive or even sexual. The problem lies in the lack of weaker males in the physical aspect of game and the plethora of females in that role.

It is the constant relying solely on sexual prowess and the frailness of a good deal of female pc's however that gives fodder to the "women are not equal" argument.

That in and of it self makes the equality rule very difficult follow and in fact makes it harder for the people who play the opposite of those roles to fit in as they should.

[Ritley]

I don't like the idea.... and some people are just naturally pretty...like I have some (a little bit) of muscle and I never once went to the gym... I guess I will just stick with the muscular dwarf characters for now  

I'm not really taking facial appearance into this, some people are naturally pretty. I don't think that every female PC should have veins popping out of her neck. I've never played a PC that was a man with long hair.  You can be feminine and give the appearance of being rugged and strong. You can be masculine without having a barrel like chest and cannons for arms.

You can mix it up. A good deal of my PCs are attractive, some aren't, that said, dress up either kind in a bunch of silks and you know it's not their daily gear. Meet one in the middle of the desert and you aren't going to think, "Oh.. It's just a girl and she's pretty, I bet she's lost."

There is nothing wrong with equal gender and there is nothing wrong with being attractive or even sexual. The problem lies in the lack of weaker males in the physical aspect of game and the plethora of females in that role.

That in and of it self makes the equality rule very difficult follow and in fact makes it harder for the people who play the opposite of those roles to fit in as they should.

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

[sarahjc]

Testosterone. And women also have testosterone in their bodies, else we'd be soft fleshy things. You could say that women perhaps produce more of it on Zalanthas? Maybe some men produce less?

And no doubt we win the debate on smarts, yeah?  :wink:

[Ritley]

Testosterone. And women also have testosterone in their bodies, else we'd be soft fleshy things. You could say that women perhaps produce more of it on Zalanthas? Maybe some men produce less?

And no doubt we win the debate on smarts, yeah?  :wink:

Well I'm not going to argue anymore. Your probably going to win anyway because you are female. Wait maybe your half female! hmm.

[moab]

I doubt any of us know what men and women have in their bodies chemically.  And  I bet none of our characters could figure it out, either.

To assume someone has testosterone is to forget to leave the RL at the login screen.

We don't know why woman and men are equal.  We can see how they are (or are not) in the game and make assumptions on in game reasons.  However, to try and draw some relationship between a RL and the IG world is probably a mistake.

There are a slew of things that work differently in the IG world than in the RL (magick being one, health being another, body comp being yet another).  I think we need to keep these things separate or we end up with a big freaking  gordian knot.

[RunningMountain]

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

Women can be equally as strong on armageddon as a man can. And equally as fast. But I think their wisdom can go to 22 while males only go to 20.

[Ritley]

I doubt any of us know what men and women have in their bodies chemically.  And  I bet none of our characters could figure it out, either.

To assume someone has testosterone is to forget to leave the RL at the login screen.

We don't know why woman and men are equal.  We can see how they are (or are not) in the game and make assumptions on in game reasons.  However, to try and draw some relationship between a RL and the IG world is probably a mistake.

There are a slew of things that work differently in the IG world than in the RL (magick being one, health being another, body comp being yet another).  I think we need to keep these things separate or we end up with a big freaking  gordian knot.

Well, I'm sure Sarahjc does because she's half of each  :wink:  nah I'm kidding.

[Armaddict]

Didn't read over this thread too much, just the opening post and the staff opinion, and I wanted to offer a viewpoint.

On earth, there are racist views.  There are racists.  There are white people that believe african-americans are inferior, or that mexicans are inferior, and vice versa.

The situation pointed out should be looked at like that.  Someone who is taking two demographics that are equal, and making one inferior.  Therefore, my roleplay around the situation would likely be centered around disgust for that other character's ignorance or stupidity.  Assuming, of course, that I did not have a character with a similar belief.

To state that this mindset -should not exist- in game is another attempt at censoring out an issue because it may offend someone or something similar, in my opinion.  However, racist beliefs -should not exist- in real life, and yet they do.  Treat it as IC bigotry, and nothing more.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Testrostiom is a highly unstable chemical element, prone to bonding with estorgium molecules at an alarming rate, often inflicting damage to other testrostiom molecules.

[moab]

produced in the testrums, right?

[My 2 sids]

I think we have to make some clearifications here...  sexism/racism/ageism/ "anything"-ism  is NOT the same as simply understanding and accepting that there are differences and then stereotypes do have their places in ALL societies (real or fantasy).


Not every Arm person here is the stereotypical geek with the mega computer and nothing to do on the weekends except role-play.  But, I'm willing to bet there are enough who fit that bill that we can all joke around with the stereotype.

[Ritley]

produced in the testrums, right?

Yeah.    I don't know why, but when I look at that quote it makes me laugh. Maybe I'm just weird. Anyway females produce estrogen we produce testostrom.  And if woman had more testostrom in Zalanthas than in Earth like SarahJC said then I doubt their would be any Zalanthas children so maybe SarahJC is wrong. I think overdosage of testostrogen would make a woman fancy other woman. Maybe I'm wrong.

[moab]

*bangs head on wall*

[Rindan]

Yes well men are going to be physicaly stronger because of the testostriom. Even Arm men have tesostriom. Well, I don't tend to play humans anyway because of this. I try to keep to other races now. Mainly dwarves.

You are missing the point Ritley, it has been stated and is documented that in game, men and women are equals in strength.  Period.  End of story.  As to the physical reason why this is true?  Who cares?  Make something up.  Maybe Zalanthas women have an extra hormone gives them a strength boost to make them equals to men.  Whatever the case, the code and the documentation all agree; for whatever reason, an average Zalanthas woman is just as strong an average Zalanthas man.

[sarahjc]

*bangs head on wall*

*falls down laughing and dies of stomach pains*

Actually here is the scientific reasoning.

The testostroms in my body are uber strong and have awesome stats. They also have maxed out on their weapons skills and work out all day. The Estrogoms are kinda lazy and like to eat bonbons. They also feel that they can get by with swinging their asses around and that 2 point wisdom bonus that RM talks about.

Anyway, basically one day the Testostroms got into a fight with the Estrogoms and they totally kicked ass. But because the Testostroms were not as smart as the Estrogoms they accidentally made a mistake with my genetic coding and I grew a tremendously large, yet flaccid penis out of my left ear.

Which is about as useless as the last few posts at the end of this thread, but I thought Ritley would like to know about my body chemistry. But basically this is a call to get off Ritleys (purposeful) misspelling? and back on topic.

[JollyGreenGiant]

A basic tenet of human nature seems to be that any difference is grounds for bias.  Race, gender, religion, country of origin, social class.  The Japanese look down on gaijin, Moslems look down on infidels, the rich look down on the poor, communists hate capitalists, women look down on men, men look down on women, the geeks hate the jocks, the jocks hate the goths, and no one likes emo.

Every aspect of this is mirrored in Zalanthas with one notable exception.  Allanaki thumb their noses at Tuluk, templars sneer at rinthers, elves look down on dwarves, magickers are regularly discriminated against, and drov take you if you worship anything but Tek or Muk in one of the cities.  Yet when it comes to gender bias, we're told that because men and women are equal, people just don't do that.  Now I'll grant that this is a game and the imms make the rules and as such, they're free to declare that gender bias doesn't exist, or would be the exception rather than the norm.

Nevertheless, such a stance lacks consistency.  No one gets offended when some trooper in the Byn says, "I'm not taking orders from that Sergeant, he/she is a {northerner, elf, mutant, bard, rinther, spice-addict, idiot}."  But oh holy crap, send in the marines if someone should utter, "I'm not taking orders from that Sergeant, he/she is a man/woman."  To me, saying that men and women are equal doesn't equate lack of prejudices.  It just says that misogyny and misandry should exist in equal measure.

That being said, that's just my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong.  I have no intention of being the elf-riding kank or the misogynist unless the documentation reflects that that attitude is acceptable in game.