How Best To Address Sexism IC and Out

[Bluefae]

Had a rather awkward rp moment the other day.  Almost posted this in the 'Ask the Staff' section, but I'd also like some PC input / related scenarios.

First off, from what I've read in the documentation, women and men in Zalanthas are absolutely equal.  Not just in the eyes of the law (or what passes as such), but physically - females can run as fast, lift as much, and fight as hard as their male counterparts.  Of course, some may be weaker than men, but just as many men will be weaker than women.  They have access to positions just as men do:  a roughly-equal amount of lady Templars, Nobles, Senators, etc.  Finally, in the mid-level positions, you have a balance of male and female physicians, merchants, sergeants, et al.

In play, this has more or less held up, too.  A few characters have explicitly stated "They're no differences between men and women, except 'down there'".  This seems to be the prevailing attitude IG.

Now, the point of this thread isn't to ignite yet another "Are women equal?" back-and-forth; rather, it's to ask about the handling of a specific dynamic.  To wit:

(Physically Weak Female):  "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior):  "A [high rank]?  That's weird, you don't see that very often.  I'd never take orders from a woman."

Now, after some further discussion it became clear that the sole objection Buff Male Warrior had was that the person in question was female.  At this point, I know some might say "Ah ha, but perhaps Buff Male Warrior is playing the odd chauvinist!"  Granted, this could be the case, and if so, more power to him.  However, that doesn't answer the larger question.

How should one best handle these situations?  If a PC, as opposed to a character, is bringing his (or her, for that matter) sexism into the game, is there a graceful way to manage the interaction?  My first instinct was to play it out the way my PC would:  in this case, she simply made a joke of it IC, and went on about her business, but it stuck with me enough to write this post.  

If it was just the two of us, I probably wouldn't worry about it; these things generally work themselves out.  However, this person is in a position to effect many new players (not that I'm not one myself, but you get my meaning) - I don't really relish the idea of having to IC'ly correct the next three recruits we get when they tell me "We don't have to listen to you, because you're a woman."    Could be laziness on my part, but there it is.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

[RunningMountain]

It's not sexism for most men. It's realism. Men are stronger then woman in our world. So it's difficult to let go of that. Deal with it anyway you want. But I really dislike the equality movement because it makes it that much harder to explain why every powerful leader in the game thus far has been a MALE.

Just look at the History of Zalanthas. The game is dominated by mostly men players, so there should be differences just to explain that alone.

[Packersfan]

Ah the old, bad roleplayer disease. This person not taking orders from a woman ig, would equate to a man in real life not wanting to take orders from a human. Hence, he would be a pariah, a wierdo, a wacko, a nutjob, a crazy man. Get the point? There is no chauvanism in Armageddon, because there would be no basis for it. This player is just a bad roleplayer, and I suggest you send an e-mail to your immortal to explain what the docs clearly outline and he has chosen to not read or ignore, to him.

I'm editing this for running mountain's post: Do you consider a 'Nakki red robe a position that is not powerful? There have been and probably still are red robed 'nakki templars that are female. Are Lirathen Templars not powerful? I mean, it is just a coincidence that the 3-4 MOST powerful people of all time are men.

[Sanvean]

This is the official staff position in regards to this question:

This sort of attitude is not the norm on Zalanthas.  When it does appear, it's on a par with, as one possible example, someone insisting they would never take orders from a man, because they're just not as level-headed as women.  To play as though this is normal on Zalanthas is playing outside the bounds of the game and deliberately disregarding one of its facets.

Am I saying there are no exceptions?  No, just as there probably may be one kank-riding elf out there.  Or a Tan Muark who is secretly attracted to elves.  I'm okay with these characters as long as they roleplay out the circumstances correctly, although they make me uneasy in that new players may witness them and get the wrong idea.

[RunningMountain]

Just to prove my above point, here's some snippets from the history page with bolded male dominance.


The Old Council of Kings begins to decay. In the final meeting between the Kings and Avangions of old....


The powerful chieftain Quintus Tektolnes conquers and unites the tribes at ....

....The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King.


Thrain Ironsword...

...sorceror that identifies himself as the Lord of Storms...

Let's not forget that all red robe templars (that I know of), were male.

Don't get me wrong, I think females can get just as powerful as men in the game, but there are going to be gender biases.
And looking at the history of the IN GAME world, men have dominated, unfortunately because the players are mainly men.

[RunningMountain]

I'm editing this for running mountain's post: Do you consider a 'Nakki red robe a position that is not powerful? There have been and probably still are red robed 'nakki templars that are female. Are Lirathen Templars not powerful? I mean, it is just a coincidence that the 3-4 MOST powerful people of all time are men.

Sure they are, but I've never met a female RR. I have met (3) Male red robes in game though. This isn't the point though. Tektolnes could be a female there's nothing to disprove that, but if you look at every major civilization in the game, it's been ruled by a male King or Lord. Or whatever.

-RM

[Medena]

I was trying to think of something analogous in real life and then from there decide how I'd play it.

What I came up with was someone saying, "Oh, I could never work for someone with red hair."

If someone said that to me I'd naturally think they were joking. If they persisted I'd think they were -very- strange.  And if they kept on voicing it to other people in my workplace, I'd probably eventually go to a higher up to describe the person's bizarre behaviour and voice my concern about what might happen should they ever have a red-haired supervisor.

[Sanvean]

We actually have a higher proportion of female players than many muds, oddly enough.  Of current staff, 10 are female, and 17 male.  I've known multiple red-robed female templars in the history of the game, including the NPC red robe that conquered Tuluk, Elaira Fale.  

What I've posted above is the official staff position.  I'm not going to argue it because it's not going to change.  Thanks.

[Dakurus]

The official staff position has been stated.

You are required to suspend your beliefs in many cases to role play properly on the world of Zalanthas. This applies to both your real world experiences and your previous in game experiences. Just because you know a bunch of places to find water and it's easy now for your current character to find, we still require you to role play an understanding that water on zalanthas is a scarce resource. We require you to roleplay a southern, northern, tribal, and other cultures as specified, not as you may have seen an example or two of previously. If you cannot, or will not do that, then it's something you need to work on.

[amoeba]

I'd equate this to someone saying they wouldn't take orders from a green eyed person. In context it doesn't make sense.

Now, perhaps I would let whoever know there is someone who thinks he doesn't have to take orders from superiors and, with luck this person will learn the hard way why that is a bad thing to say. I wouldn't put it in the terms as wouldn't take orders from a woman, rather I'd put it as wouldn't take orders if he didn't feel like it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

(Physically Weak Female):  "[So-and-so] is a [high rank] with the [blah-blahs]."

(Buff Male Warrior):  "A [high rank]?  That's weird, you don't see that very often.  I'd never take orders from a woman."

The problem isn't that he's playing a chauvanist.  If you want to play a character with an unusual viewpoint just once, there isn't any problem with it.  It tends to be more interesting if they don't miraculously coincide with real life prejudices or steriotypes, but do what you want.

The problem is that Mr. Buff Male Warrior is talking as though everyone in the world should share his viewpoints.  His character would know differently.  That is poor role-play.

How do you react to it in-game?  I would suggest doing whatever your close-minded, ignorant commoner usually does when she encounters an idea that is unfamiliar and alien to her.

[Packersfan]

Running Mountain: Tektolnes could be a female there's nothing to disprove that, but if you look at every major civilization in the game, it's been ruled by a male King or Lord. Or whatever.

If you consult the docs, it states the following: Quintus' son, aged 22, treacherously slays his father and assumes control of the kingdom, now called Allanak.

Hence, this along with the live grenade I hold in my hand say that Tektolones' is(was) a man.

[marko]

There have been as many powerful female characters as there have been male characters in my experience over the past umm... few years.  

I remember incredibly potent red robes that were female and if you messed with them you were screwed.   I remember heros of the rebellion that were female.  I remember shadowy females who beat the pants off any male shadowy character.

I've met two exceptionally powerful magickers who were female - and we're talking beyond the normal power aspect of a magicker.  These were downright scary with their ability.

My point?  Just because they haven't made the history timeline does not mean that they are not there.

In the end - the game is not dominated by either male or female characters that are powerful.  

If you encounter sexism you may react to it however you wish but it is not the norm - the view of male superiority has not developed in the game world.

[bloodfromstone]

Perhaps not poor roleplay, as uneducated. Obviously, it doesn't click with the world right, and, for that reason, the character is probably being roleplaying incorrectly, but I wouldn't instantly say the person was a bad roleplayer. They might just not have read the documents, or maybe they're still getting used to the world.

[moab]

White robes are all female (in Tuluk) and higher ranking.

Of the four red robes I've met, three were female.  And far scarier than the male.

And to the point - to the freak who can't seperate RL from IG (and needs to get a new RL philosophy as well) have the smack put on his ass by some female badass.

There you go.

[UnderSeven]

Okay, because of the insistance on naming specific male bad asses I will now name female bad asses.

Mordaga of blackwing the sun-darkened elven woman.  Feel like dying?  She was not only a terror during her time across the entire game, but she also led.  

Malka and Miannon are also great blackwing examples.

Ra, yes, I do mean the krathi, don't know who I meant?  All you need to know, she was a female who was no slouch.  

I'm going to butcher names to say alchione?  Alci.. Well whomever she was her player still plays this game, alkeyone?  Whatever.  

The point is there have been plenty of female leaders and female bad asses on this game.  

The staff position was stated, but I just couldn't let this go without bringing mention to some of those greats.

[flurry]

With a newish player who is still getting used to all the ins and outs of Zalanthas, I can sort of understand it.  

With a well established player who knows better, it just seems on par with the hairy dwarf or the kank-riding elf.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts and replies so far.  Frankly, I was surprised at how quickly folks responded; good stuff!  Take care, all.

[Bluefae]

Oops, sorry about the anon. post.   :wink:

[Packersfan]

White robes are all female (in Tuluk) and higher ranking.

There you go.

White robe is a term used for 'Nakki Templars on special assignment, outside of the caste system of blue, red, and the all powerful black. In Tuluk, they are referred to as Templars of the Lirathen Order (white moon Lirathu).

[Vesperas]

The way I see it, there is going to be a FEW sexist characters in Armageddon, in both directions, just as there will be characters who are racist against their own kind (for whatever reason), their own mothers, and their own nationality (or citizenship, or whatever you call it).  It's not bad RP if its well-done... the player should realize his activity is not the norm in the world, and should compensate accordingly -- i.e, his character (unless very stupid or unaware) would know his views were "off," and may wish to only share them in appropriate circumstances.  Bite the bullet, in other words.  Unless he was just stubborn.


[flame removed by staff moderator]

[RunningMountain]

[reply to flame removed by staff moderator]

[Ritley]

On Arm I tend to try and treat both sexes equal. Sure us men may be stronger and are usually better at maps and things that require maximum concetration, but they compensate with the ability to do two things at once and their higher organisation skills. I'm not sexist in anyway and in RL I treat men and woman different because they are different. On Arm I treat them the same.

[Gaare]

Most people in RL don't run around trying to kill other people with bone swords, either, but players generally have no problem adjusting to that particularly heinous act in Zalanthas.

Is it that hard to accept woman and man equality?

[My 2 sids]

Alright, here goes:  I believe there are two reasons that no matter how many times people scream, "It's in the docs" there will always be some sexism in game.

1.   The realitity is I think it's a lot easier for the players t o relax about sexism than racism... this seeps in to our characters.  In today's world (esp. America) one can have a lot of fun with "battle of the sexes" were as we are conditioned that any mention of racsism is absolutly horrible.  By conditioning we are a lot more comfortable role-playing inequality of the sexes than we are inequality of the races.

2.   Also comming from our own culture is to point out differences in genders  "battle of the sexes, sexism, etc" is a way to flirt.  I'm not saying people don't want equality but people do enjoy gender stereotyping.