Chains

[bloodfromstone]

I've seen a couple of references to chains in the world, and I realized I was instinctively picturing generic metal chains. This, obviously, isn't right.

So what are chains on Zalanthas generally made of, anyone know?

[EvilRoeSlade]

That's true, but most bone chains I've seen are just jewelry, not meant for any hard activities.

[Jherlen]

I once saw a room description which (I think) described a 'bone chain' being used to hold up a chandelier.

Personally I wish bone would stop being treated like Metal Lite in the game world. Bone rapiers? wtf?

[Cenghiz]

Bone.. I even saw shackles made of bone.. But it was.. kinda weird.. As someone above mentioned, isn't a hemp rope much stronger?

[Elgiva]

Maybe bone of Zalanthian animals is much stronger than bone we know from irl...?

[Sholdyn]

How would you even make a bone chain? Bone doesn't flex and you can't weld it together. You' d have to carve out a bunch of rings of bone and then carve slots to fit them together.... but then you could just as easily take them all apart again. Doesn't make sense.

[Cuusardo]

They would be very, very expensive due to the amount of work that goes into them.

[Oxidised Lizard]

Hmm, I suppose you could cut out slots to assemble the chain, then glue the cut-out chunks back in afterwards.  This is assuming Zalanthas has some kind of glue-like substance...  Or you could tie the chunks back in - seems a bit long-winded though.

[naatok]

It is my understanding that the strongest material for restraints in Zalanthas (barring metal, of course) is giant hair.

Apparently giant hair has some rather interesting properties...including great tensile strength, resistence to extreme heat...not to mention the flexibility to be braided, twisted, tied into all sorts of interesting and useful shapes.

To clarify...I'm referring to the hair of full-blooded giants.  Quasi-legendary creatures of immense size and strength.  Not the more common half-giants.

It seems to me that most bone would be too brittle to be used as restraints, however Mekillot bone is supposed to be very strong, heavy and durable as bone goes.  There are examples of slave collars, weapons, armor plating, wrist guards, wrist restraints, etc.  made from Mekillot bone throughout Zalanthas.

[mansa]

Back in the time, the Trader's Inn used to reference the lamps to be hanging on brass chains.  Some things have been corrected from faults in the past.

[Cyrian20]

lol bone does to bend, soak a bone in vinegar over night, see if that shit aint rubber in the morning.

[Hexxaex]

Animals of Zalanthas probably have really strong bones, and you can make so many things with the material.  People in Zalanthas are masters at working bone, so a chain really isn't that hard to make, considering how often they work with it.

Here on Earth?  How many people that you know make bone weapons, armor, jewelry, and arrows for a living?  Not too many, if any at all.  Zalanthans do that stuff every day, so a chain is easy.

[The Fang Oracle]

*wants a cloak of giant-hair thread, so that she can waltz up to a Krathi mage and poke him in the eyes*

[Jherlen]

I don't buy the argument that just because Zalanthans are forced to work with bone more, that they can make things easier from it. You can't forge bone, or smelt it, or do a lot of the things that a smith working with metal can do to forge it into things. A bone chain would have to be made in the way Oxidised Lizard described, or something similar, and it just doesn't make much sense that any crafter would waste time doing that when they have rope available.

As for bone rapiers...
http://images.google.com/images?q=rapier&hl=en

Take a look at those pictures. That's a rapier. See how thin it is? Does it really make sense that a bone weapon shaped like that would be very useful?

Metal is flexible and can bend a bit. Bones are not designed to bend, by their very use. They break. If you take a thing made of bone and jam it straight at anything hard (like, say, a breastplate), it would shatter. Likewise if anyone wielding a heavier weapon struck your rapier, it would probably break it in half.

Not to mention, a single piece of bone that long would have to come from a pretty big beastie. Big beasties are hard to hunt and kill. Would any weaponcrafter really want to use good materials to make a weapon like a rapier when he could make a bigger, more powerful club or longsword?

If Zalanthan bone is strong enough that a weapon like a rapier is feasible, or that chains can be made from it, then I don't see any point to the "metal is rare" theme, because Zalanthan bone can apparently do everything metal can do.

[Maybe42or54]

This game used to be a Hack and slash game, so calm down.

The strikingly handsome man runs up to you, bone rapier in hand.
You look at the Byn Lieutenant and smirk.
The Awesome, broadaxe wielding, man of doom says, to the strikingly handsome man, in sirihish, "You fuckin' kidding me, fucking spiced out of your mind boy?"

The strikingly handsome man nicks the byn lieutenants neckguard made out of chitin.
The Byn lieutenant's attack is absorbed by the man's the silt horror shell breastplate.


Rapiers are a fancy man's tool of choice, during way the hell back when. I agree that they really should be taken out of Armageddon. Seriously. If my PC was ever killed by a rapier, I'd bang my head against the wall until I forgot it happened.

[Agent_137]

Jherlen, well, duh.

the lack of metal is thematic, not part of the "harsh" atmosphere.

[COGATO]

I would have to say that noone has ever held a mekillot bone rapier before...so therefore...none of you have any idea how strong mekillot bone rapiers are. For all we know, they are just as strong if not stronger than earth metal rapiers. Until you see in a description that the rapier appears brittle, or something to that affect, and the rapiers are still parrying obsidian axes, you have to assume that the bone holds properties that allow it to do so. Or thats my thoughts on it anyways.

[Fragmented]

Bone rapiers are silly, I don't care how dense the bone of a mekillot is. It's still going to snap like a twig as soon as it hits something solid with any force. So there.  :twisted:

[Jherlen]

If mekillot bone is just as good as metal, then why is metal so prized and valuable? What's the purpose of having metal be rare other than letting people go "Ooooooooh, a metal sword!"

A rapier is a fairly advanced weapon. When I see a rapier I don't think "harsh, primitive desert planet", I think 16th/17th century Three Musketeers-style Europe........ which Zalanthas is not.

If bone rapiers are feasible, why stop there? What's to stop Zalanthans from developing something like cannons or muskets? They have flash powder, and they could hollow out a bone and pack it with powder and a small bone bullet. If mekillot bone is really that strong, it shouldn't shatter when the gun was fired. But does that make sense? I hold that bone rapiers are every bit as silly as bone guns would be.

Bone isn't metal, it shouldn't be treated as having the properties of metal, and it shouldn't be thought of as a substitute for metal, and you shouldn't be able to make everything out of bone that you could out of metal. It just doesn't make sense.

[Dalmeth]

If mekillot bone is just as good as metal, then why is metal so prized and valuable? What's the purpose of having metal be rare other than letting people go "Ooooooooh, a metal sword!"

Because it would be lighter, less prone to breaking, easier to repair, probably would have a better balance.

[palomar]

There is also, quite splendid, chainmail.

Edited to add: Yes, I find that quite odd, but people who work with bone are quite likely to come up with such things sooner or later.

[Only He Stands There]

Personally, I'd pull the Suspension of Disbelief flag out for this sort of thing.

But that's just me.

[path]

I agree. Once my mind wanders off on a track like this I start to wonder if chain would have been invented at all as a functunal format for the present materials. Then I think about the moment when one course is taken, and the infinite inventional possible realities splintering out and then I get boggled wondering what those other inventions might be, considering the different materials and uses and cultural backgrounds.

But we cant go on forever remaking the history to our world, because that is very unfriendly and elitist to newcommers who don't care that a grat is not congradulations, but a means of securing someone employing ropes tied to each end of a short length of bone (the rope being braided with barbs which catch easily in flesh and make wiggling undesirable)...

Suspended belief.

[Medena]

I find it pretty funny that while people have no problems accepting that the Big Defiler casting "The Grand Fart of Nihilistic Doom" on you would mean death, they can't just let go a few things made out of bone.

[Anonymous]

I find it pretty funny that while people have no problems accepting that the Big Defiler casting "The Grand Fart of Nihilistic Doom" on you would mean death, they can't just let go a few things made out of bone.

This sort of argument in a fantasy world always irks me.

There are rules to the world to make it coherent.  One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.  Obsidian on Zalanthas is similar to earth obsidian, blood on Zalanthas is similar to earth blood, etc.

Defilers are not a concept taken from our reality but there are still rules about how defilers work.

Personally I have no real problem with bone chains holding up a chandelier in Armageddon, it might push the boundaries of what is realistic but if you can use a bone sword to cut through thick chitin or shells then I'd wager that Zalanthan bone is more dense than our own earthen bone.

That being said just because this is a fantasy world it doesn't mean that there aren't rules and a 'reality' based on our own.

[halfhuman]

Actually, you're looking at the way a Zalanthan bone chain would be made all wrong. Instead of creating individual links and fitting them together some how, you just take a long length of bone and carve out the rings already interconnected. I don't really know a better way than that to explain it, but my dad has a wooden chain in his shop that some recreational craftsman made out of a long board. Seems very tedious.

If you don't think a bone chain would be strong enough, substitute it for a big chunk of sid. There's no way someone could break stone cuffs without finding some sort of heavy tool to smash it with. Bone chains would work just fine for hanging chandaliers if you don't think they're fit to restrain people/critters.

One purpose I could see for a bone rapier is ceremonial. It seems that a rapier would be more of a decorative blade that nobles would wear because "I'm surrounded by guards, and if I war broke out, I wouldn't have to use this thing anyways so it may as well look damn pretty while not cumbering me down with weight!" Kinda like an iPod. I've seen bigger playing cards then them things.

But then, a rapier is a stabbing blade. If you were to baseball swing it up against a wall it'd snap outright, but if you gave that wall a good, strait thrust of it, you'd leave a nice gouge.

[richter]

Actually, you're looking at the way a Zalanthan bone chain would be made all wrong. Instead of creating individual links and fitting them together some how, you just take a long length of bone and carve out the rings already interconnected. I don't really know a better way than that to explain it, but my dad has a wooden chain in his shop that some recreational craftsman made out of a long board. Seems very tedious.

Unlike wood, bone doesn't come in huge blocks from which you could carve a segment of chain of significant length and size.  Remember, bone is hollow.  You'd have to either have extraordinarily thick bone and more patience than most people could imagine to make something with such little functional use for such an investment in time.

If you don't think a bone chain would be strong enough, substitute it for a big chunk of sid.

I hope you don't mean obsidian.  It's even harder to "carve" into such a shape than bone.  And far to fragile to produce chain of any useable size.

There's no way someone could break stone cuffs without finding some sort of heavy tool to smash it with.

Quite the contrary.  For the links to be of any size useable to bind someone, they'd be particularly weak.  All one would have to do is bang them against a hard surface and you'd probably break a link.  Once that's done, the chain becomes two bracelets, not linked ones.

Bone chains would work just fine for hanging chandaliers if you don't think they're fit to restrain people/critters.

Again, the difficulty of making such a chain would preclude all but the most wealthy from seeing them, much less possessing them.  Lot of money to spend on a chandelier hanger that most people won't ever get close enough to notice.

One purpose I could see for a bone rapier is ceremonial. It seems that a rapier would be more of a decorative blade that nobles would wear because "I'm surrounded by guards, and if I war broke out, I wouldn't have to use this thing anyways so it may as well look damn pretty while not cumbering me down with weight!" Kinda like an iPod. I've seen bigger playing cards then them things.

Completely possible.  I hereby ask the staff to change the damage dice on all bone rapiers to reflect this.  New dice will be 1d1.

But then, a rapier is a stabbing blade. If you were to baseball swing it up against a wall it'd snap outright, but if you gave that wall a good, strait thrust of it, you'd leave a nice gouge.

So in other words, if you plan on fighting a pacifist wall, the bone rapier's your weapon.  Against living, fighting opponents, it's rather worthless (unless you're lucky enough to run across one who'll let you just stab them and won't parry/block).  But no wall will fuck with you while you carry your wall-killing bone toothpick.

[Maybe42or54]

And don't poke them with your rapier too hard. It might bend.

[halfhuman]

Ouch. Arguementally raped.   :oops:

Still, not all bone is hollow. Short bone such as on fingers isn't hollow. Neither is flat bone as in a skull or ribs. Find a nice big creature such as a mekillot and you could probably get at least 5 feet of bone chain about as thick as a slender arm.

This arguement makes me want to kill something so I can play with it's bones.

[Anael]

Uh, with all those bad words against rapiers, you could dismiss all those 'slim' polearms (spears and all), slender longswords and so on, leaving yourself with just axes and clubs  
I don't protest at all, I just felt I have to comment it. 64

[richter]

Uh, with all those bad words against rapiers, you could dismiss all those 'slim' polearms (spears and all), slender longswords and so on, leaving yourself with just axes and clubs  
I don't protest at all, I just felt I have to comment it. 64

The blade of a rapier is, as I alluded to earlier, a toothpick compared to a longsword (slender or not) and especially a "'slim' polearm".  Rapier blades are much thinner than other weapons excepting some types of daggers.  But there, the length of the blade gives the dagger greater resistance to breaking.  A non-metal rapier is basically a weapon just waiting to break.

Honestly, given the equivalent of paleolithic and neolithic (and earlier) weapons, all you really do end up with is axes, clubs, and spears (I'm omitting bows as I'm refering to melee weapons).  Without metal, swords really aren't practical in comparison.  Wooden swords are possible, but it's interesting to note that they were considered practice weapons (wasters) for all kinds of sword types, including rapiers.  But they weren't weapons of war, they were weapons of training.

Take care,

Jason

[Nao]

Wooden weapons.. They make sende to me, for stabbing items like spears and maybe daggers. I got bored and made a wooden knife once that you could definitely uise as a dagger to stab someone, with enough force. For those spears and daggers you'd need more force, but it would work.
Also, I can see them as clubs... as long as the are large and have a decent weight, though they would be far less effective than heavier wepaons from stone or something similar of the same size.
Anything that needs to hold a sharp edge- no. wooden swords- no, except for practice. wood isn't sharp enough to cut, and you couldn't put too much force behind a blow with a wooden sword because they are too light.

[Anael]

I wouldn't call a 1-1.5 inch wide blade a 'toothpick' myself, and some heavier types of rapier had such blades. There surely are/were weapons 'classified' as longswords with a blade this slim. There's at least one such longsword in game, too, and a polearm-like weapons with a haft even slimmer. That's what I'm referring to in the post above.
Actually, italians themselves didn't have a word for 'a rapier'. It was just 'spada' no matter what. 'Rapier style' as a term was created with translation of diGrassi's texts on Bolognese cut/thrust techniques into English. So, the whole rapier vs sword thing seems a bit amusing to me.

All I am saying is, people focus too much on the mental picture of a weapon they get when they get from the weapon's name, which isn't always correct (rapiers have more than 800 different types of different weight and blade width).
Using rapiers as decoration, as a weapon against lightly armoured people or smaller animals on Zalanthas seems okay to me. Against a club, an axe, or a n upset bahamet? You better flee!

[Sokotra]

...and then we get back to the reality of the Zalanthas, and not the reality of Earth.  I think the basic idea is that wood on Zalanthas probably has slightly different properties than wood on earth... heh.  I remember reading in a Dark Sun manual a long time ago something about how Agafari is extremely hard... I think they even said it was comparable to metal or something.  But that was Dark Sun, and not Armageddon... but I still think certain types of wood on Zalanthas are probably pretty darn hard, since they do effectively hold a sharp edge on weapons in the game.  

And stop raping the rapiers, I like them... and of course, all bone on Zalanthas is much tougher and harder since it is such a harsh world...  :lol:  But seriously, it is a fantasy world...

[Anael]

Amen

[Dalmeth]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Anyway, the only sword I know of the rapier type that was actually used by soldiers was far larger than your average rapier.

[LauraMars]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

You could expect to die (slowly and painfully) if you got your ass into a duel.  Those motherfuckers were dangerously pointy and it was no joke to get poked by one.  Most duels in the 16th and 17th centuries were "to the death" simply by default.

If zalanthan bone/wood whatever is comparable to a metal, then it is no wonder there are able to be huge epic battles, and evil torture devices... and bone rapiers.  It's just the mystique of metal that makes it a symbol of power.

[Sokotra]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Anyway, the only sword I know of the rapier type that was actually used by soldiers was far larger than your average rapier.

Yeah, I could see how a very thin rapier could be pretty fragile... but then again, I imagine the bone or wood was hardened and treated by fire, organic chemicals/oils, or whatever other processes that Zalanthans use to create their weapons.  In this particular fantasy world I think it imaginable that they have found ways to get by in a land scarce of metal by finding processes to augment materials that are otherwise weak in comparison... and I've seen many hints at that in the descriptions that I've read on various items across the known world.  

Maybe these processes have made the wood or bone more flexible as well, hence lending the rapier one of its strengths.. to bend and not break. (again, fantasy world.. imagination time, kids!)

AND... One of the most memorable folks that I've seen use a bone rapier in the game was a master of finding exactly where to poke that thin little sucker.  Imagine you got some big brute all decked out in heavy chitin and bone armor, nothing uncovered except holes to see out of and a few weak places in the joints to allow for some movement.  And then you got this skinny guy with olive skin and eyes of 'sid wearing flexible oiled leathers and a funny hat.  In this case, by the time the big brute takes a few swings of the axe and club the skinny guy has already slid a rapier and stiletto into both eyeholes and found some nice soft spots in other places as well.

Yeah, that's an extreme example.. but my point is that I imagine with the lightweight of the rapier you would gain some speed and in the right hands could be used to target some pressure points very accurately.

[Dalmeth]

AND... One of the most memorable folks that I've seen use a bone rapier in the game was a master of finding exactly where to poke that thin little sucker.  Imagine you got some big brute all decked out in heavy chitin and bone armor, nothing uncovered except holes to see out of and a few weak places in the joints to allow for some movement.  And then you got this skinny guy with olive skin and eyes of 'sid wearing flexible oiled leathers and a funny hat.  In this case, by the time the big brute takes a few swings of the axe and club the skinny guy has already slid a rapier and stiletto into both eyeholes and found some nice soft spots in other places as well.

In a real life situation, 1 in 200 die trying to get skilled enough with a rapier to take down a mediocre armored fighter.  The weapon does not make the combatant, its skill does.

There are swords of the same style of the rapier which make more sense for the sort of fighting that occurs in Armageddon.  Let's phase rapiers out and bring those in.

[Arabian Nights]

I find it pretty funny that while people have no problems accepting that the Big Defiler casting "The Grand Fart of Nihilistic Doom" on you would mean death, they can't just let go a few things made out of bone.

This sort of argument in a fantasy world always irks me.

There are rules to the world to make it coherent.  One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.  Obsidian on Zalanthas is similar to earth obsidian, blood on Zalanthas is similar to earth blood, etc.

Defilers are not a concept taken from our reality but there are still rules about how defilers work.

Personally I have no real problem with bone chains holding up a chandelier in Armageddon, it might push the boundaries of what is realistic but if you can use a bone sword to cut through thick chitin or shells then I'd wager that Zalanthan bone is more dense than our own earthen bone.

That being said just because this is a fantasy world it doesn't mean that there aren't rules and a 'reality' based on our own.

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

[Cale_Knight]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Well, it happened like this (very much abridged description).

Back in the day, the cream of the soldierly crop went to battle in plates of steel over chain which was over padded cloth. Hundreds of pounds of protection. You also had a huge honking sword, because the odds were you'd be going up against someone also wearing that much armor.

Then you start seeing guns becoming more viable on the battlefield. Suddenly it doesn't matter how much armor you're wearing, because a well-placed shot is going to go right through the best suits of armor.

Training someone to fire a gun is a lot easier than training someone to be a knight. Heavy armor starts to phase out. Pretty soon nobody is running around in all that armor anymore.

So then people realize that to stab someone, you don't really need a big honking sword anymore. That's when you start seeing things like rapiers.

[Kalden]

Estocs, the precursor to rapiers, were originally developed just for sliding into armor(mostly mail). Rapiers are probably not all that bad - just lunge for the face or something. A "huge honking sword" is never really gonna slice through plate armor.

They used to huge honkin' swords to cut down the infantry, maybe.

[joyofdiscord]

There are rules to the world to make it coherent. One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same. Obsidian on Zalanthas is similar to earth obsidian, blood on Zalanthas is similar to earth blood, etc.
...
That being said just because this is a fantasy world it doesn't mean that there aren't rules and a 'reality' based on our own.

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

Uhm, no his argument doesn't imply that at all.  His "argument" was specifically limited to the properties of materials, not to sex differentiation.   So, no, that does not logically follow at all.

I will just never understand the kind of arguments that come out every time this sort of topic is discussed.  Have you ever played a fantasy game before?  Just because the fantasy world has some consistency to its rules doesn't mean OMG, it has to be exactly like real life, and there can be NO MAGICK.

First of all, crafting messages when you start working with bone flat out state that bone is "brittle."  So that discussion is settled.  Zalanthan bone is not flexible as a matter of course.  Not without special treatment.

For that matter, if bone is such a great wonder-material, apparently even better than metal, why can't we have bone firearms, and bone iPods and bone internal combustion engines?  What do you mean that's not realistic and doesn't fit in the game world?!  I guess you want no magick in the game and want the game to be that we all sit at our computers typing, right!?  Because there can be NO middle ground whatsoever!  

I guess the game some people want to play is like this:

>walk
You are a human.  Humans have no legs.  You cannot walk.  See "help fly."

>fly
What do you want to fly with?

>fly with wings
Wings are used to grip objects.  Read "help flippers."

>fly with flippers
You are flying.

(I went on like this for while, but decided to snip it down, because you get the point.  A "fantasy" world with no rules, or very lax ones, is dull indeed.)

Middle ground, people, is all I have to say.  Middle ground.  "But we have magick!!" is not, and never has been, a valid point in these kinds of discussions, not unless we are positing that within Zalanthas, magickers are being employed to change the properties of bone.  "Zalanthan bone is generally stronger" -is- a potentially valid point, so long as one recognizes that these things have their limits, and a bone longsword is different than a bone iPod.

It would be great if people could recognize that there is something in between "In a fantasy world, ANYTHING GOES" and "This world is realistic and therefore must be exactly like Earth in every respect."  But for some reason we have to rehash this argument -every- -single- -time- the topic comes up.

Is a bone rapier too far in terms of believability?  Eh, maybe.  I tend to think that it is.  A bone katana would be uber-kickass too, but I would retch if I ever saw one in game.

Are bone chains suspending a chandelier too far?  Nah, no big deal, they could even be open links, it just has to suspend something.

Are bone or obsidian chains (I'm pretty sure I've seen obsidian chains mentioned in a room description) used as a method of restraint too far to be believable?  Oh yes they are.  They really, really are.  Although it's conceivable that bone chains could be crafted and used in a very elaborate restraint system (one where the victim is suitably restrained so as not to be able to mess with the chains), but in any such case, rope would be just as useful and far more practical as far as cost and other considerations.

I don't want a world where it sounds like a text editor was used to search and replace "iron" and "steel" with "bone" and "obsidian."  I'd prefer one where it consistently appears that people of this world have made do with lesser materials.  Currently, Zalathas tends strongly toward the latter, which is a good thing, but that doesn't stop some people from constantly pushing for the former, for reasons I do not yet comprehend.

[Anonymous]

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.

[Arabian Nights]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I believe it to very logically follow. You people are making a big deal about believability of certain things when there are many, many things about the gameworld that aren't realistic or like the RL.

My point is that you can let certain things fly but not others that aren't really a big deal anyway? Is it really that big of a deal that a bone rapier wouldn't work in our world? No...it isn't. Doesn't even merit wasting everyone's time with this stupid discussion.

The argument is that some of you can't suspend disbelief in regards to some of the physics of the gameworld but can easily do it for other things about the gameworld that also disagree with the real world.

It's stupid.

[Arabian Nights]

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.

Really? Don't recall there ever being any documentation to that effect? Could you post a link if it exists?

The point is, we can suspend disbelief for many things that don't match up with the real world (HUGE THINGS), but little shit like a bone rapier not being likely to work in the real world and it working in the game world is the topic of this huge, pointless discussion.

[Anonymous]

It's stupid.

Well it's good to see that logic and reason will follow this debate.

Just because it's a magickal world doesn't mean things don't make sense.  I happen to agree that Zalanthan bone is probably dense enough to make a fine chain.  The overall issue I have with your reasoning is that there has to be a rationale behind things no matter what reality we are discussing.

Otherwise my character should be able to make machine guns out of sand a spit and summon great big flying clown shoes because, hey, it's a magickal world ok?

Take elves, for instance.  Ok, they are faster than humans but why?  Saying 'just because their elves and it's a magickal world' is a weak answer to me.  So when this topic came up I was glad to read from Sanvean that elves had hollow bones (which also probably plays a part in their weaker endurance) because it's a logical explanation.

[Arabian Nights]

Okay, you want a logical explanation. Okay, the bone selected for the creation of a rapier just happens to have the right density and flexibility to work as a rapier. Do you know how we know that they work? Because they exist in the game and some people use them, somewhat effectively too.

If we see it working in the game, then you would have to logically deduce that it is working for a reason.

I personally don't want to start seeing shit like this just to satisfy the really anal people:

lo rapier

A long piece of flexible white bone has been carved into a slim-bladed rapier. The handle of this weapon is wrapped tightly in leather cording to form an excellent grip and the bottom is formed into a rounded pommel. The blade is slightly sharpened at the edges, but most threatening is the razor sharp point of the weapon. Now, some of you who are extremely anal might wonder how this is possible since most bone is too brittle in the real world. Well, this bone happens to have just the right molecular structure in the world of Zalanthas that is unlike any bone existing in the real world, <insert chemistry jargon here>. Very flexible, even when carved down to this narrow of a length, this bone also can be cut to a fine edge and it would take extreme force to break it. This particular type of bone is found in the wing of a furry, feather-crested kamali that is often found along the shores of the Sea of Silt. The furry, feather-crested kamali is a social animal, usually found in large family groups where all the parent creatures help with the rearing of young. The furry, feather-crested kamali are scavengers and usually feed off carcasses they find out in the sands. They happen to pull certain enzymes from their food that causes their bones to form with the odd density and flexibility. These enzymes are: <insert chemistry jargon here>.

:roll:

[joyofdiscord]

You don't really believe that.  I know for a fact you don't, because if you take a look in your own post history, you'll see that you've had gripes about the believability of some things in game, like half-elves and mounts, and at least one thing you were just plain wrong about: being able to codedly hide in a featureless room.  There -are- no-hide rooms.  So, I guess, by your -own- definition, those concerns were

stupid

Or, would you prefer I posted a condescending, long-winded, farfetched explanation of hiding in small rooms and why half-elves are good with mounts?

Really? Don't recall there ever being any documentation to that effect? Could you post a link if it exists?

That was easy.

Bone is readily available all across the Known World, coming mainly from mekillots in the south and bahamets in the north. This material is perhaps the best common material for weapons, for it is relatively easily crafted, fairly resistant to shock, and of a good density for offensive use. It can also hold a reasonably sharp edge.
...
Appropriate animals must be hunted, carefully slain, and then the bones extracted in such a way as to give weaponsmiths the best raw material to work with (i.e., undamaged bones). (Note from joyofdiscord: this means that bone, even unshaped, living bone at the very peak of its strength and resiliency within a creature, can be readily damaged in combat, meaning that that bone rapier is going to be in trouble.)
...
Metal is so rare as to be highly prized even amongst the nobility. It is extremely strong and resilient, essentially shatter-proof, and capable of holding a very sharp edge. For all of these reasons, metal is by far the best type of material for making weapons on Zalanthas.

There you have it.  Bone is not anywhere near as useful as metal, and its properties are not comparable, not even in the least.  Now we just need someone to come along with "maybe Zalanthan metal is way stronger than Earth metal, and Zalanthan bone is, like, the same as Earth metal" so we all know we've completely wasted our time and the discussion has gone down the toilet by having to reiterate points that should be completely obvious to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for making this a discussion about the merits of a cohesive reality with rules analgous to our own in a fantasy world instead of one of those discussions where we call the other point of view stupid and express the opposing view in the most absurd terms possible, such as an overly-tehcnical item description.

You also must have missed the part where I said that having Zalanthan bone be denser than earth bone seemed like a perfectly logical conclusion to me and thus bone rapiers/chandelier chains didn't seem out of place.

[Arabian Nights]

Thirdly, when all is said and done, Armageddon MUD is a fantasy game. Some things that might be considered a bit unrealistic in real life, such as wielding two medium-sized weapons simultaneously (which is actually possible, just that very few people have the dedication or the time to put into mastering such skills), may be considered acceptable in the game. If you do not think that something is realistic, then simply do not have your character do it. But please do not go around the game telling other people what they can or cannot do; leave it to the staff to judge if someone is being ridiculous or not.

Also found in that link you put there. And I don't see anywhere where it says they are exactly like the earth versions of the same materials. Not as easy as you thought.

Appropriate animals must be hunted, carefully slain, and then the bones extracted in such a way as to give weaponsmiths the best raw material to work with (i.e., undamaged bones). (Note from joyofdiscord: this means that bone, even unshaped, living bone at the very peak of its strength and resiliency within a creature, can be readily damaged in combat, meaning that that bone rapier is going to be in trouble.)

And the code supports weapons breaking. Still don't see what the issue is here. All bones have varying densities and vary in flexibility. You would use the most flexible bone possible for a rapier.

[Dracul]

the code -barely- supports weapons breaking.

I've had a wepon break ONCE in all my playing time.

Kinda made the PC who had 8 weapons on him pointless....I would love to see them break more -especially- the cheap, pos weapons.

[marko]

My own view is that there are many different fantastic creatures in the known world.  Some of them have chitin that is incredibly hard - perhaps as hard as metal.  Others have bones that are so dense they can substitute metal.

As for wood - different trees have different densities as well.  Many of the slow growing trees have ultra-dense properties.  I see nothing wrong with the thought that some of these, when treated properly, would become as strong as metal.

So, the question becomes, why would metal be better?  Does it have to be?  I mean honestly?  Instead, it is just rare.  And because it is rare it is a luxury.  Because it is a luxury it is wanted by everyone.

[Arabian Nights]

the code -barely- supports weapons breaking.

Bullshit. I've shattered so many weapons with different pcs that I've lost count. And seen many others break weapons as well. Your pcs have all been relatively weak or you got lucky.

[Weapon Breaker]

the code -barely- supports weapons breaking.

I've had a wepon break ONCE in all my playing time.

Kinda made the PC who had 8 weapons on him pointless....I would love to see them break more -especially- the cheap, pos weapons.

You are lucky.  I had five weapons break on me in three hours of play.  The next day I had two more break in a single hunting expedition.

The code supports the breaking of weapons but there are a lot of factors involved (as there should be).

My char is human.

[Jherlen]

Joyofdiscord's post pretty much sums up my thoughts... especially where he says that "bone" shouldn't just be treated as a synonym for "steel".

Personally I'd love to see weapons get phased back to the more paleolithic sense, up with the axes and clubs and spears! I'm not saying bone shouldn't be used for weapons, I'm saying lets try and have Zalanthan weapons reflect the primitive technology these people have.

Sokotra's example of the "duelist" guy with a rapier fighting a huge armored guy made me sigh. Zalanthan's don't duel. An honorable fight to the death is about the -last- thing I would ever expect (or want) to see in the game. Would someone ever want to spend that much time getting that good with a rapier? To me they just seem out of place in the theme.

And lets not even go into somebody using a rapier to hunt with.

We can argue that maybe Zalanthan bone is stronger, more flexible, so on and so on and so making rapiers from it is feasible. Fine. Why would anyone want to, either way? You're going to take a nice long piece of this superbone (which someone had to kill something big to get, remember), and shave it down into a rather thin sword, when you could make something thicker, heavier, more destructive and more durable.

I dunno. In the end, I doubt I'll ever have a character use a rapier because to me, they just don't seem to make sense and seem out of place. If people stop buying them, maybe they'll disappear. Heh.

On another note: I -did- see a bone katana once, somewhere.  :shock:

[Anael]

On another note: I -did- see a bone katana once, somewhere.

You mean in game or IRL? :shock:

Back to rapiers: really, folks. RL cavalry rapiers were no swashbuckling duelists' tools and were designed to penetrate armor. Rapier != slim blade. Some authors define a rapier by the swept hilt and that's it. Sometimes you get even a cutlass-like single edged weapon called 'a rapier'!
That doesn't advocate those 'slim rapiers' you can see in game, of course. It's just that everyone seems to think rapiers are always slim, heh.
On the other hand, it's quite funny to roleplay your weapon's downgrades.

em placing one foot onto %body chest, me attempts to pull ~rapier out of the dead man's eye
em stumbles backwards as %rapier slim blade shatters, leaving a good cord of sharpened bone sticking out of ~body
say (peering at the hilt in ^me hand, the blade broken smoothly just a cord away from the guard) Feckin' Salarri!
junk rapier

Allow me to derail this a bit:
Speaking about primitive weapons: is it just me or is there really only few weapons like kylies or throw sticks? They'd make perfect sense to me. Much more than throwing knives and daggers (and there's plenty of those!). I remember seeing only one weapon of this kind in game...

[Sokotra]

Personally I'd love to see weapons get phased back to the more paleolithic sense, up with the axes and clubs and spears! I'm not saying bone shouldn't be used for weapons, I'm saying lets try and have Zalanthan weapons reflect the primitive technology these people have.

I kinda agree with you on that point, but then again I think that is already in place to a certain extent.  It seems to me like most tribes and 'less advanced' peoples of Zalanthas are already created to reflect their primitive technologies.  More 'advanced' armors and weapons seem to have come from the larger and more advanced city-states.  We got locks on our doors and wagons and entire Houses of weapons/armor experts... I'm no expert, but that seems to be a society advanced enough to have created more sophisticated or just 'different' types of weapons.  

Sokotra's example of the "duelist" guy with a rapier fighting a huge armored guy made me sigh. Zalanthan's don't duel. An honorable fight to the death is about the -last- thing I would ever expect (or want) to see in the game. Would someone ever want to spend that much time getting that good with a rapier? To me they just seem out of place in the theme.

I'm not sure I agree with any of that - a duel or a fight to the death does not have to be 'honorable' and the human ego is a strange thing which causes us to do even weirder stuff.

Also, I don't think I said anything about a 'duelist'.  My example was drawn on past experiences in the game and I was trying to make a point that there are different styles of fighting that one may use.  Some prefer chitin armor and large weapons while most prefer lighter protection such as leathers and lighter weapons instead of hauling around huge heavy swords through the desert - it mentions something in the documentation about 'heavy = impractical' in the desert environment of Zalanthas.

This may not always be the case, and I can see how many tougher warriors and races may favor heavier armor or weaponry - but let's not rule out the majority of lean, malnourished denizens which would probably be wearing sandcloth and carrying a stiletto or even a longer, slim blade (sometimes known as a rapier).

What it comes down to for me is that there are many types of people in Zalanthas, from rugged hunters and mercenaries to agile thieves and assasins to brutish thugs and barbarians to swindling swashbucklers and bards.  Why take away the variety and try to get rid of the rapier?  I still don't see why it would not be realistic that there are certain types of people in the world that would favor such weapons.  I also don't think it INCONCEIVABLE ("You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.") that the rapier could be flexible enough to be very useful.  If it bothers people so much, make it out of a flexible chitin or something.  And as someone else mentioned, there are many types or rapiers and they all (if any) aren't toothpick thin.  I like the rapiers, although I agree certain weapons might not fit in the gameworld, for some reason I always thought rapiers did - just as the cutlass does and other weapons that remind me of them thar pirates of the silt sea and other salty dogs of the wastes.  In fact, I think we need more pirate stuff in the game.  :lol:  

A discussion about how certain materials fit or work in the gameworld is good, but lets not get too fussy.

Which brings me back to some more Princess Bride quotes...

Inigo Montoya: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo Montoya: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo Montoya: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that.
Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead.
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it.
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: DYEEAAHHHHHH.

[richter]

On another note: I -did- see a bone katana once, somewhere.

You mean in game or IRL? :shock:

Back to rapiers: really, folks. RL cavalry rapiers were no swashbuckling duelists' tools and were designed to penetrate armor.

Typically such weapons are refered to as hangers or sabers, not rapiers.

Rapier != slim blade. Some authors define a rapier by the swept hilt and that's it. Sometimes you get even a cutlass-like single edged weapon called 'a rapier'!  That doesn't advocate those 'slim rapiers' you can see in game, of course. It's just that everyone seems to think rapiers are always slim, heh.

By definition, a rapier is a weapon with a straight (though there are examples of single-edged rapiers), double-edged, diamond-shaped, long, thin blade.  Saber, estoc, hanger, etc. are all different from rapiers.  Using the hilt as a means of identifying a rapier is inaccurate since many times rapier hilts were used for other weapons.  This didn't make those weapons rapiers.  If the blade's an inch or more wide, you're not really talking about a rapier but one of these other weapons.  It's sort of like calling a three-wheeled vehicle a bicycle.  If it's got more than two wheels, it can't be a bicycle.  Same thing applies with a rapier.  If the blade's not narrow, it's not a rapier.

Take care,

Jason

[Jherlen]

I'm all for pirates and swashbuckling in general, sure (who doesn't like pirates? Seriously.) ... I just don't think that three musketeers style swashbuckler fighting really makes sense in Zalanthas. Who would you rather hire for any job, the thin guy with his dinky sword or the rough mercenary who'll just club that guy over the head? Most Zalanthan fighters either are mercenaries or fight them. Lighter weapons and lighter fighting styles make sense, sure, and for those there are staves (which seem vastly underrepresented), halfswords, knives, etc. All of those make a lot more sense than whittling a long piece of bone down so much into a rapier. Anyway, as I said, it just never made sense to me.

And yeah, I saw the bone katana in the game.

[richter]

Just to dispel a rumor (since I might not have been clear about it), while they're thin, real rapiers aren't really lighter than your typical sword (most of which, regardless of size are the same approximate weight).  Some rapiers are actually heavier because of the thick, diamond-shaped blade and the extra length.  Regular swords would be flatter and possess a fuller to reduce the weight.  Rapiers don't have that advantage.  However, in comparison to a regular-bladed sword, while heavier, the rapier is far less sturdy.

I've played around with a rapier and my first thought was, "God, this is a lot heavier than I expected."  That's one reason many experts believe the rapier's use was so short.  It was an inferior weapon.  Note that the saber (derived from the cutlass) ended up being the prefered sword of the post-rapier period for officers throughout the European nations and the States.

Take care,

Jason

[Anael]

By definition, a rapier is a weapon with a straight (though there are examples of single-edged rapiers), double-edged, diamond-shaped, long, thin blade. Saber, estoc, hanger, etc. are all different from rapiers. Using the hilt as a means of identifying a rapier is inaccurate since many times rapier hilts were used for other weapons.

"definition" is the keyword here. Whose definition?
We could throw different authors and different approaches at each other and never find the truth. You could name J. Clements, who says rapiers are just those narrow, thrusting weapons, I could name M. Kaspryk, who uses the word as a much broader group of weapons. As I mentioned earlier, originally, there was no common name for "a rapier" and it was created later (based on a word some people used when they laughed at those new edge-less swords). Calling something 'a definition of a rapier' isn't exactly a good idea.
I once saw two blades in a museum. The blades were almost identical, just dating and hilts were different. One label said 'epee', the other said 'rapier'. There's no neat and clear definition, unless you use one from wiki or google. Which'd be quite amusing.
Similarly, english people call "palash" a sabre (some even call it a rapier, as I said earlier). There's a whole -lot- of differences between turkish sabre and a palash, yet english calls them the same. Same goes to handaxes and ciupagas, chekans and warhammers... and so on and so on...

To be nitpicky, rapiers were double-edged only in the first century of their existence. Later on, they rarely had sharpened cutting edges. First using a strict definition of a rapier and then calling it 'double-edged' is almost as bad as calling a three-wheeled vehicle a bicycle
Rapiers with a ricasso width of one inch were quite common. Standard definition epee blade width is 3/4 inches and rapiers can have a double-epee blade. Perhaps you were thinking a foil or a smallsword there?

Just to backup what I say, my main resources are AHF and swordforum.com

Oh and, cavalry rapier is a term. It's no hanger nor saber, that's a completely different blade shape.

Anyway... no comments on my little 'throwstick' derailment? o.O

[richter]

I once saw two blades in a museum. The blades were almost identical, just dating and hilts were different. One label said 'epee', the other said 'rapier'. There's no neat and clear definition, unless you use one from wiki or google. Which'd be quite amusing.

Epee is essentially what rapiers ended up becoming and application of the term is based upon the fighting style more than the difference in weapons.

To be nitpicky, rapiers were double-edged only in the first century of their existence. Later on, they rarely had sharpened cutting edges.

Same goes for many swords which is why I did not say "sharpened".  You really didn't need a sharpened edge when fighting against armored opponents, just an edge.  So, you're not really nitpicking, you're just misunderstanding what I meant.

First using a strict definition of a rapier and then calling it 'double-edged' is almost as bad as calling a three-wheeled vehicle a bicycle

Actually, you're simply confusing "double-edged" and "sharpened".  By definition all swords possess an edge (or two).  The edge may or may not be sharpened.

Rapiers with a ricasso width of one inch were quite common. Standard definition epee blade width is 3/4 inches and rapiers can have a double-epee blade. Perhaps you were thinking a foil or a smallsword there?

Last time I checked, "one inch" and "3/4 inches" were narrower than other swords (I have seen a rapier with a blade 1.25 inches wide, but again, given the length of the blade, this width is quite disproportional when compared to other swords).  The rapier is a double-edged weapon with a diamond-shaped blade.  No, not thinking of a foil or a smallsword, though all three would be equally out of place in a technological-level like that of Zalanthas.

Anyway... no comments on my little 'throwstick' derailment? o.O

Well, I'm not very familiar with them (having thrown one a couple times but never really given them much study), but given the differences between Zalanthan life (quite often large and armored), I don't know how effective they'd be.  They're a Neolithic weapon so they'd probably be "advanced" by Zalanthan standards (though considering the improbable existance of swords, their evolution would be more convoluted).

I'd likely agree that they should be present, along with the atlatl discussed in another topic.  Therein lies the problem.  That these weapons are absent alongside the existance of swords in a non-metal-using society is improbable.  Given the technology available, the existance of swords really doesn't make sense, which throws off the development of other weapons.  A non-metal-using society that develops swords but not throw-sticks and atlatls is sort of like a society inventing the carburator without having invented the car or even the wheel.

Maybe we should start a petition....

Take care,

Jason

[Anael]

Heh, no worries, this is not about rapiers. We both said what we wanted to say and it's clear we won't agree with each other.

The question of Zalanthan technology was always a bit unclear to me. The whole world gives me this pre-neolithic feeling, but then there are fairly complex things like locks and crossbows.
There is probably a difference between city-states and desert tribes when it comes to technologies.

Oh and one thing... when people say bone would break upon striking armour, they should remember the armor is quite often made of chitin or leather. Similarly, a bone chain holding a bone chandelier might be less sturdy, but it also has to deal with a lighter thing than an iron chain holding a chandelier made of iron.

[Rindan]

Heh, no worries, this is not about rapiers. We both said what we wanted to say and it's clear we won't agree with each other.

The question of Zalanthan technology was always a bit unclear to me. The whole world gives me this pre-neolithic feeling, but then there are fairly complex things like locks and crossbows.
There is probably a difference between city-states and desert tribes when it comes to technologies.

You need to realize that Zalanthas is a world that DID have a relativly advanced civilization.  Why the details are murky as to how advanced it was, I would feel pretty safe to compared the old pre-dragon civilizations to at least that of Rome, if not even more advanced.  This easily justifies the rather odd assortment of weapon.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Bone is a lot stronger than most people seem to be giving it credit for.  The human thigh bone is stronger than concrete, for example.  Now, think about the thigh bone of something big, say, a Tyranosaurus.  That upper leg bone must have had an incredible amount of strength to be able to not only support the dinosaur, but also be able to withstand the forces generated by muscle actions when the dinosaur ran.

Zalanthas has mekillots with bone structures that have to be capable of supporting several TONS of weight, and probably hundreds of pounds worth of torque.  Cut down to size but properly treated, mek bone would still retain an incredible amount of structural integrity, more than enough to see use as a sword-type weapon.

[richter]

Bone is a lot stronger than most people seem to be giving it credit for.  The human thigh bone is stronger than concrete, for example.  Now, think about the thigh bone of something big, say, a Tyranosaurus.  That upper leg bone must have had an incredible amount of strength to be able to not only support the dinosaur, but also be able to withstand the forces generated by muscle actions when the dinosaur ran.

Zalanthas has mekillots with bone structures that have to be capable of supporting several TONS of weight, and probably hundreds of pounds worth of torque.  Cut down to size but properly treated, mek bone would still retain an incredible amount of structural integrity, more than enough to see use as a sword-type weapon.

Except that bone becomes quite brittle after a while (as in after harvested and separated from a living being).  Even treated, it won't have the strength of living bone.  Additionally, in the case of a rapier, we're talking a narrow blade.

Nothing saying bone isn't strong enough to be used as a weapon.  It definitely is.  However, the weapon type ought to conform to the material used, which doesn't appear to be the case with a few.

Take care,

Jason

[JollyGreenGiant]

Even treated, it won't have the strength of living bone.

That's an assumption based on real-life science and thinking.  While some of that does apply to Zalanthas, there's nothing that says that the Salarri haven't come up with a chemical treatment based on marilla sap and anakore blood that doesn't lock in the strength of the living bone for whatever period of time you want to make up... a year, five years, eternity.

Obviously there's -some- process out there that turns bone into uber-durable isilt, so perhaps going halfway through the process gives you treated bone with an exceptionally lengthy period of time before it starts to degrade in earnest.

And don't forget magick.

[richter]

Even treated, it won't have the strength of living bone.

That's an assumption based on real-life science and thinking.  While some of that does apply to Zalanthas, there's nothing that says that the Salarri haven't come up with a chemical treatment based on marilla sap and anakore blood that doesn't lock in the strength of the living bone for whatever period of time you want to make up... a year, five years, eternity.

There's also nothing to state the opposite, that living bone doesn't have greater strength.  However, if you've ever crafted with bone, including bone you've harvested yourself, was there a crafted treatment you had to use first?  If not, that would lend evidence against your hypothesis.

Obviously there's -some- process out there that turns bone into uber-durable isilt

No, it's not obvious that there is until there is evidence that bone should be treated as such.  Barring a direct statement from staff, there is no guarantee that bone is "uber-durable".

And don't forget magick.

If magick can make bone as strong as steel, why can't magick simply make iron?  Magick is a last resort when a) you want a result that exceeds the realm of reality, b) you want a result that you didn't plan well enough for to begin with.  Magick could be used as an excuse to do a variety of things if it's given widespread use over materials, but that's not always a legitimate method.  After all, not everyone can use magick but does that mean anyone who can craft with bone does use magick?  If bone is changed using magick and I can craft with bone, does that mean I had the ability to change the bone into psuedo-iron?

Standards.  Definable standards are what are needed.  What are the limits of materials and why.  The limits/qualities might not be known to the characters, but it should at least be known to the staff and players, not guessed at.

Take care,

Jason

[JollyGreenGiant]

Obviously there's -some- process out there that turns bone into uber-durable isilt

Isilt.  There might even be a "help isilt".  If so, read it.  Isilt exists in game.  Isilt is processed bone.  Isilt is uber-durable.  That is all.

[sarahjc]

First I'd like to say that Jason's ending statement reminds me of Dirr. But that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

I think you guys are reading way to much into this. There is way too much stuff made from bone in the game for it to be questioned as a durable substance and one that can withstand a lot of abuse.

Now, possibilities for why this is:

Maybe Zalanthan creatures have far more dense bone that earth ones do.

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be stronger. (I mean really, we don't wash our clothing with purple salt rocks on earth, but I don't see you questioning that logic either.)

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be flexable and then another to make it strong and that's how you have chains.

Isilt.  There might even be a "help isilt".  If so, read it.  Isilt exists in game.  Isilt is processed bone.  Isilt is uber-durable.  That is all.

There is even a special place you can watch this process.. Shhh!!

Are any of these realistic? No.. Is a dragon, a desert planet, magickers, sorcerer kings and glowing jems any more so? A sea made of silt?

Say it with me, Fantasy!

If I was looking for lots of realstic things, I'd go play that game called Real Life.

(edited just to be a jerk)

Take Care,

Sarah

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I can understand what this is about, people trying to push the game towards half realism and practicality, pushing for the changes they see will move the mud towards somewhere better.

It's just like playing CS. How the hell does anyone take so many bullets and still remain standing? In RL, if I take 1 hit to the head from a glock, the probablity of me surviving is close to nil. What's worse, mutliple shots from a mp5 to the body or a clipshot from an artic to the head?

It's a game, even if the imms don't want us to think that, those evil... [goes into a muttering fit]

Know what's great about a game? There can be magicks and spellbooks, swords and warriors, dragons and dragon slayers and damsels in distress and rapists. Things that brook no explanation, about why x chemical plus y chemical = abc. Because by the very simple fact that they exist, so they are real.

[Anonymous]

First I'd like to say that Jason's ending statement reminds me of Dirr. But that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

No clue who Dirr is so I haven't any idea if that was meant as an insult, a compliment, or just an observation.

Now, possibilities for why this is:

Maybe Zalanthan creatures have far more dense bone that earth ones do.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  What I'm pointing out is the lack of any definitive statement to the effect of one or the other.

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be stronger. (I mean really, we don't wash our clothing with purple salt rocks on earth, but I don't see you questioning that logic either.)

Actually, there are numerous methods of washing clothes.  My personal favorite to tell people of is the use of urine.  And in this example, the "purple salt rocks" could contain sodium carbonate, which would make them effective for washing clothes.

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be flexable and then another to make it strong and that's how you have chains.

Say it with me, Fantasy!

Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there aren't standards for materials.

If I was looking for lots of realstic things, I'd go play that game called Real Life.

Do you use the emote to make your character float around the room by flapping your arms or other such things that wouldn't be reasonable?  No.  Why?  Standards.  It's not possible to float around the room just by flapping your arms.  Why?  Because you can't create enough lift to raise your bodyweight.  The same thing is being discussed here.  There are limits to materials, regardless of whether or not you or I or anyone has stopped to consider them.  They may not be the same as "real" equivalents, but there should be standards for their qualities and limits beyond the "sounds cool" factor.

Take care,

Jason

[richter]

Above post was by me.  Must have timed me out while I was AFK.

[jcarter]

Even treated, it won't have the strength of living bone.

That's an assumption based on real-life science and thinking.  While some of that does apply to Zalanthas, there's nothing that says that the Salarri haven't come up with a chemical treatment based on marilla sap and anakore blood that doesn't lock in the strength of the living bone for whatever period of time you want to make up... a year, five years, eternity.

There's also nothing to state the opposite, that living bone doesn't have greater strength.  However, if you've ever crafted with bone, including bone you've harvested yourself, was there a crafted treatment you had to use first?  If not, that would lend evidence against your hypothesis.

Obviously there's -some- process out there that turns bone into uber-durable isilt

No, it's not obvious that there is until there is evidence that bone should be treated as such.  Barring a direct statement from staff, there is no guarantee that bone is "uber-durable".

And don't forget magick.

If magick can make bone as strong as steel, why can't magick simply make iron?  Magick is a last resort when a) you want a result that exceeds the realm of reality, b) you want a result that you didn't plan well enough for to begin with.  Magick could be used as an excuse to do a variety of things if it's given widespread use over materials, but that's not always a legitimate method.  After all, not everyone can use magick but does that mean anyone who can craft with bone does use magick?  If bone is changed using magick and I can craft with bone, does that mean I had the ability to change the bone into psuedo-iron?

Standards.  Definable standards are what are needed.  What are the limits of materials and why.  The limits/qualities might not be known to the characters, but it should at least be known to the staff and players, not guessed at.

Take care,

Jason

I don't think you're going to like this game very much if you see something as minor as extra-strong bones and get upset. Try suspending your disbelief.

[Maybe42or54]

Or hell. Since the last time I checked, copper was reddish and brown, and half the known world has red sand, which makes me think that there is a lot of metal, it just isn't refined. Since there is sooo much everywhere, I think that animals (including humans, which is why I can land on my neck and live still) have a higher ratio of iron in their bodies. More iron= stronger shit.

[Synthesis]

http://www.obsidianlab.com/pdf/xrf_oregon_big_obsidian_flow.pdf

Check out the iron oxide columns.  Those figures are reported in weight percent oxide.  (The percentage of the weight of the sample that the iron oxide accounts for.)  All the other elements are reported in parts per million.  The various iron oxides add up to about 90-95% of the sample weight for each sample....

Something to think about, at least.  I've always imagined a secretive band of uber-krathis melting down obsidian and forging iron weapons, heh.

Edited to add:  (Not to mention the TITANIUM.  Titanium greatswords.  *drool*.)

[richter]

http://www.obsidianlab.com/pdf/xrf_oregon_big_obsidian_flow.pdf

Check out the iron oxide columns.  Those figures are reported in weight percent oxide.  (The percentage of the weight of the sample that the iron oxide accounts for.)  All the other elements are reported in parts per million.  The various iron oxides add up to about 90-95% of the sample weight for each sample....

Something to think about, at least.  I've always imagined a secretive band of uber-krathis melting down obsidian and forging iron weapons, heh.

You couldn't just "melt down" obsidian and obtain iron.  However, if we're to allow the "magick" hypothesis concerning bone, why can't it be applied to extracting iron from other minerals?  Using magick, obsidian could be turned into iron or the obsidian could be "melted down" and the iron extracted.

That's why the "magick" hypothesis fails and really isn't reliable.  It's inconsistent because if it allows you to bridge one small discrepancy of the gameworld, it can equally bridge more pivotal features.  It would be nicer and easier if material strengths/weaknesses were considered rather than ignored.  It keeps the gameworld consistent.  And why would that be a bad thing?

Take care,

Jason

[Larrath]

Zalanthan bone is simply stronger.  So is Zalanthan obsidian.

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

Zalanthas is not the real world.  Please don't cling to every little thing that doesn't make sense to you and drag out the physics behind it and show us how it can't make sense.  Zalanthas is a fantasy world, with fantasy elements.  Suspend your disbelief.

[Vesperas]

I think its time those moons had a celestial clash, and then everyone can blame it on those filthy elves.

[richter]

Zalanthan bone is simply stronger.  So is Zalanthan obsidian.

Again, this is an assumption based not on material definition but on durability oversight.

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

More or less doesn't mean they are even.  Distances as great as the kind you're talking about aren't easy to perceive.  They could be much further than apart than you believe them to be.  And lacking any scientific measurement of their orbit, it's not very good evidence to cite.

Zalanthas is not the real world.

Obviously.

Please don't cling to every little thing that doesn't make sense to you and drag out the physics behind it and show us how it can't make sense.

Correction: "...that doesn't make sense."

Zalanthas is a fantasy world, with fantasy elements.  Suspend your disbelief.

Pardon me while I log in and start making snowmen in the desert.  Can't do that?  It's a fantasy world, suspend your belief!

There's no reason a critical examination of the less-thought-out elements of the game shouldn't be balanced with some reason for their existance, even if that reason isn't something the characters would know.  It's one thing to accept that some things aren't developed well and suggest ways to do so.  It's quite another thing to just blow off any attempts to fix such errors for whatever reasons I won't speculate.

Now, back to my snowman.

Jason

[Angela Christine]

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

More or less doesn't mean they are even.  Distances as great as the kind you're talking about aren't easy to perceive.  They could be much further than apart than you believe them to be.  

It is also possible that their mass is nearly equal, even if their size isn't.  The small one could simply be more dense than the larger one.  For gravity and orbits and things mass would be more important than size, I think.




Angela Christine

[sarahjc]

No clue who Dirr is so I haven't any idea if that was meant as an insult, a compliment, or just an observation.

Neither, just observation.  If I wanted it to be an insult, I would have said Sjanimal, which you don't know either.

Now, possibilities for why this is:

Maybe Zalanthan creatures have far more dense bone that earth ones do.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  What I'm pointing out is the lack of any definitive statement to the effect of one or the other.

Do you really expect the staff to document every nit-picky thing so that you can rationalize it? But lets think about..

A lot of things are made from bone.
Really strong things are made from bone.
Some really big things are made from bone.

Maybe Zalanthan bone is a durable substance?

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be stronger. (I mean really, we don't wash our clothing with purple salt rocks on earth, but I don't see you questioning that logic either.)

Actually, there are numerous methods of washing clothes.  My personal favorite to tell people of is the use of urine.  And in this example, the "purple salt rocks" could contain sodium carbonate, which would make them effective for washing clothes.

If you wash yourself with Pee, you would smell horrible. I hope you emote that when you walk in a room.  That sad, who is to say what pee smells like on Zalanthas or that it's much worse smelling that the unwashed guy next to you. But still if I had to choose between sitting near the guy who washed his clothing with the purple salt and the guy who was washing in pee, you can guess who I would be sitting next to.

But I think it's just widly known that human/Zalanthan waste smells rather bad.

My point was that we really don't know what's in those purple saltz or why it cleans things, it's just an accepted cleaner.

And just for an FYI incase you decide to change up the pee cleaning. I actually just use one of those brushes, some sand and those bars of soap to clean my stuff, mostly all just as props. Emote out mixing some sort of sand soap mix and using the brush to dust it on and off.  Only if my PC's stuff gets stained do I take it for "professional" cleaning.  I just assume her stuff is kinda gritty.

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be flexable and then another to make it strong and that's how you have chains.

Say it with me, Fantasy!

Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there aren't standards for materials.

There actually is a standard for this in the game. (some places show you how it's done) You will just have to suspend your disbelief to wrap your mind around it.

Do you use the emote to make your character float around the room by flapping your arms or other such things that wouldn't be reasonable?  No.  Why?  Standards.  It's not possible to float around the room just by flapping your arms.  Why?  Because you can't create enough lift to raise your bodyweight.  The same thing is being discussed here.  There are limits to materials, regardless of whether or not you or I or anyone has stopped to consider them.  They may not be the same as "real" equivalents, but there should be standards for their qualities and limits beyond the "sounds cool" factor.

Well, you can float around a room if you have magical aspects to you. You wanna explain that one away?

But that's not the point.

The point was that certain considerations must me made when dealing in a fictitious world and working within the confines of one without metal as a building/crafting material and still maintaining some sense of societal development and advancement.

And I really don't think the making of islit or any other ways bone is used in the game are so unrealistic to the point of being silly.  For all we know, bone chain uses S link or most links are carved from a single piece of bone. All that may take a good deal of time, but anything crafted without the use of metal would.

It is a fantasy game and there are plenty of things that you will just need to take for granted in order to play it.

Anyways, Take Care

Sarah

[richter]

If you wash yourself with Pee, you would smell horrible. I hope you emote that when you walk in a room.  That sad, who is to say what pee smells like on Zalanthas or that it's much worse smelling that the unwashed guy next to you. But still if I had to choose between sitting near the guy who washed his clothing with the purple salt and the guy who was washing in pee, you can guess who I would be sitting next to.

But I think it's just widly known that human/Zalanthan waste smells rather bad.

My point was that we really don't know what's in those purple saltz or why it cleans things, it's just an accepted cleaner.

And just for an FYI incase you decide to change up the pee cleaning. I actually just use one of those brushes, some sand and those bars of soap to clean my stuff, mostly all just as props. Emote out mixing some sort of sand soap mix and using the brush to dust it on and off.  Only if my PC's stuff gets stained do I take it for "professional" cleaning.  I just assume her stuff is kinda gritty.

I didn't say I used that method in-game.  I was pointing to a historical method of washing clothes as an example (the Romans for example used this method).  Given a lack of available water to waste on rinsing the clothes afterwards, such a method probably isn't acceptable for most except those who could afford it.

Well, you can float around a room if you have magical aspects to you. You wanna explain that one away?

I'm not disputing the existance of magic in a fantasy world.  I am disputing the lack of explanation for non-magical aspects without resorting to a later excuse of "maybe it's magick".

The point was that certain considerations must me made when dealing in a fictitious world and working within the confines of one without metal as a building/crafting material and still maintaining some sense of societal development and advancement.

And plenty of historical models exist to draw upon.  Unfortunately, most of these haven't been utilized.  Instead, as someone else pointed out, metal has simply been substituted without compensating for the difference in material.  There's no reason materials can't be substituted, but the differences should at least be recognized and taken into consideration.

For example....

And I really don't think the making of islit or any other ways bone is used in the game are so unrealistic to the point of being silly.  For all we know, bone chain uses S link or most links are carved from a single piece of bone. All that may take a good deal of time, but anything crafted without the use of metal would.

S-links would be acceptable, but that should be noted to avoid someone else using chain as if it were designed in the conventional sense.  Furthermore, someone earlier in this discussion brought up a point about hair.  Making chain out of braided hair would be both an elegant and superb substitution.  Hair is extraordinarily strong and its flexibility would allow for adaptation into different shapes, something bone can't do.

It is a fantasy game and there are plenty of things that you will just need to take for granted in order to play it.

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better.  Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve?  That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies.  It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement.  It likely always will.

Take care,

Jason

[sarahjc]

And plenty of historical models exist to draw upon.  Unfortunately, most of these haven't been utilized.  Instead, as someone else pointed out, metal has simply been substituted without compensating for the difference in material.  There's no reason materials can't be substituted, but the differences should at least be recognized and taken into consideration.

II don't see that as being true at all. I think the people who create rooms and objects for the game are keenly aware of what bone can and cannot do and you can in fact take wood or bone and carve it into chain link. It's most likely really expensive and rope would be a better choice for certain things, but in hanging a chandelier I can see where the choice to use bone chain would come into play perhaps for aesthetic reasons.

Also since I don't like to repeat myself all that often.

Do you really expect the staff to document every nit-picky thing so that you can rationalize it? But lets think about..

A lot of things are made from bone.
Really strong things are made from bone.
Some really big things are made from bone.

Maybe Zalanthan bone is a durable substance?

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better.  Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve?  That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies.  It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement.  It likely always will.

Of course not, but all the same, I would rather the staff spend more time interacting with the playerbase then going back and changing all bone chain link to hair. That just seems silly and it really just doesn't seem too far fetched for me.  That's not to say that new and good ideas should be brushed aside for the old standard. I think Hair chain is a good idea, I also think rope is a good idea too.  But it certainly isn't ruining my playing experience seeing objects like bone chain in the game.

[Jherlen]

I was originally arguing in this thread, but I think it's honestly been talked to death.

I think things like bone rapiers and bone katanas don't quite fit in with other aspects of the game world. I certainly would not miss them if they were gone. I can suspend disbelief and roll my eyes a bit, though, and move on.

I don't think a six page long thread about what bone can and can't do really helps. Obviously some people think some things could be changed, some don't, but bone chains and rapiers are far far less invasive than flying people or snowmen, as far as believability goes.

The game world is one of the most amazingly detailed and consistent you will find in ANY game ANYWHERE. The staff do a remarkable job treating it with care. Obviously it's evolving, and I don't think anyone argues that it's completely free of inconsistencies or perfect. Dragging on threads like this doesn't really seem to hellp anything.

[LoD]

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better. Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve? That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies. It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement. It likely always will.

This happens because it's a simple case of reward on your investment of time and energy.  Is the investment of time and energy in making these changes to the game world going to provide enough of a reward to warrant it being a priority?  No one is arguing that something might not be made more in line with Earth's realism, but many are arguing that this may not be a high priority when compared to other applications of the Immortal's time.

Time spent fixing bugs, implementing features that are considered to have a larger impact on the entertainment of the playerbase than items that -can- conveniently be rationalized, interacting with the players, answering emails of player concerns, etc...

This is the crux of everyone's counter to your idealogical "make the world better" speech I see plastered on nearly every post of yours I read.  Yes, there are aspects of the world that could've been created differently, especially if decided upon at the inception of the world.  But this game was originally created by a 14 year old, and I doubt he had a degree in urban development, metallurgy, physiology, astronomy, etc...to make the appropriate decisions at every creative step.

While you may have "fun" concentrating on these issues, I'd bet a fair number of people wouldn't consider it the same.  There's more than Earth science accuracy to be considered for "making something better" here, there's the entertainment of the players.  Imms constantly have to choose between which they "make better".  Sometimes they get to do both, but I choose to forgive and accept the areas in which attention to realism might be lacking than chastize them for not fixing issues that don't -really- have any impact on the average's players enjoyment of the game.

-LoD