Chains

[halfhuman]

Actually, you're looking at the way a Zalanthan bone chain would be made all wrong. Instead of creating individual links and fitting them together some how, you just take a long length of bone and carve out the rings already interconnected. I don't really know a better way than that to explain it, but my dad has a wooden chain in his shop that some recreational craftsman made out of a long board. Seems very tedious.

If you don't think a bone chain would be strong enough, substitute it for a big chunk of sid. There's no way someone could break stone cuffs without finding some sort of heavy tool to smash it with. Bone chains would work just fine for hanging chandaliers if you don't think they're fit to restrain people/critters.

One purpose I could see for a bone rapier is ceremonial. It seems that a rapier would be more of a decorative blade that nobles would wear because "I'm surrounded by guards, and if I war broke out, I wouldn't have to use this thing anyways so it may as well look damn pretty while not cumbering me down with weight!" Kinda like an iPod. I've seen bigger playing cards then them things.

But then, a rapier is a stabbing blade. If you were to baseball swing it up against a wall it'd snap outright, but if you gave that wall a good, strait thrust of it, you'd leave a nice gouge.

[richter]

Actually, you're looking at the way a Zalanthan bone chain would be made all wrong. Instead of creating individual links and fitting them together some how, you just take a long length of bone and carve out the rings already interconnected. I don't really know a better way than that to explain it, but my dad has a wooden chain in his shop that some recreational craftsman made out of a long board. Seems very tedious.

Unlike wood, bone doesn't come in huge blocks from which you could carve a segment of chain of significant length and size.  Remember, bone is hollow.  You'd have to either have extraordinarily thick bone and more patience than most people could imagine to make something with such little functional use for such an investment in time.

If you don't think a bone chain would be strong enough, substitute it for a big chunk of sid.

I hope you don't mean obsidian.  It's even harder to "carve" into such a shape than bone.  And far to fragile to produce chain of any useable size.

There's no way someone could break stone cuffs without finding some sort of heavy tool to smash it with.

Quite the contrary.  For the links to be of any size useable to bind someone, they'd be particularly weak.  All one would have to do is bang them against a hard surface and you'd probably break a link.  Once that's done, the chain becomes two bracelets, not linked ones.

Bone chains would work just fine for hanging chandaliers if you don't think they're fit to restrain people/critters.

Again, the difficulty of making such a chain would preclude all but the most wealthy from seeing them, much less possessing them.  Lot of money to spend on a chandelier hanger that most people won't ever get close enough to notice.

One purpose I could see for a bone rapier is ceremonial. It seems that a rapier would be more of a decorative blade that nobles would wear because "I'm surrounded by guards, and if I war broke out, I wouldn't have to use this thing anyways so it may as well look damn pretty while not cumbering me down with weight!" Kinda like an iPod. I've seen bigger playing cards then them things.

Completely possible.  I hereby ask the staff to change the damage dice on all bone rapiers to reflect this.  New dice will be 1d1.

But then, a rapier is a stabbing blade. If you were to baseball swing it up against a wall it'd snap outright, but if you gave that wall a good, strait thrust of it, you'd leave a nice gouge.

So in other words, if you plan on fighting a pacifist wall, the bone rapier's your weapon.  Against living, fighting opponents, it's rather worthless (unless you're lucky enough to run across one who'll let you just stab them and won't parry/block).  But no wall will fuck with you while you carry your wall-killing bone toothpick.

[Maybe42or54]

And don't poke them with your rapier too hard. It might bend.

[halfhuman]

Ouch. Arguementally raped.   :oops:

Still, not all bone is hollow. Short bone such as on fingers isn't hollow. Neither is flat bone as in a skull or ribs. Find a nice big creature such as a mekillot and you could probably get at least 5 feet of bone chain about as thick as a slender arm.

This arguement makes me want to kill something so I can play with it's bones.

[Anael]

Uh, with all those bad words against rapiers, you could dismiss all those 'slim' polearms (spears and all), slender longswords and so on, leaving yourself with just axes and clubs  
I don't protest at all, I just felt I have to comment it. 64

[richter]

Uh, with all those bad words against rapiers, you could dismiss all those 'slim' polearms (spears and all), slender longswords and so on, leaving yourself with just axes and clubs  
I don't protest at all, I just felt I have to comment it. 64

The blade of a rapier is, as I alluded to earlier, a toothpick compared to a longsword (slender or not) and especially a "'slim' polearm".  Rapier blades are much thinner than other weapons excepting some types of daggers.  But there, the length of the blade gives the dagger greater resistance to breaking.  A non-metal rapier is basically a weapon just waiting to break.

Honestly, given the equivalent of paleolithic and neolithic (and earlier) weapons, all you really do end up with is axes, clubs, and spears (I'm omitting bows as I'm refering to melee weapons).  Without metal, swords really aren't practical in comparison.  Wooden swords are possible, but it's interesting to note that they were considered practice weapons (wasters) for all kinds of sword types, including rapiers.  But they weren't weapons of war, they were weapons of training.

Take care,

Jason

[Nao]

Wooden weapons.. They make sende to me, for stabbing items like spears and maybe daggers. I got bored and made a wooden knife once that you could definitely uise as a dagger to stab someone, with enough force. For those spears and daggers you'd need more force, but it would work.
Also, I can see them as clubs... as long as the are large and have a decent weight, though they would be far less effective than heavier wepaons from stone or something similar of the same size.
Anything that needs to hold a sharp edge- no. wooden swords- no, except for practice. wood isn't sharp enough to cut, and you couldn't put too much force behind a blow with a wooden sword because they are too light.

[Anael]

I wouldn't call a 1-1.5 inch wide blade a 'toothpick' myself, and some heavier types of rapier had such blades. There surely are/were weapons 'classified' as longswords with a blade this slim. There's at least one such longsword in game, too, and a polearm-like weapons with a haft even slimmer. That's what I'm referring to in the post above.
Actually, italians themselves didn't have a word for 'a rapier'. It was just 'spada' no matter what. 'Rapier style' as a term was created with translation of diGrassi's texts on Bolognese cut/thrust techniques into English. So, the whole rapier vs sword thing seems a bit amusing to me.

All I am saying is, people focus too much on the mental picture of a weapon they get when they get from the weapon's name, which isn't always correct (rapiers have more than 800 different types of different weight and blade width).
Using rapiers as decoration, as a weapon against lightly armoured people or smaller animals on Zalanthas seems okay to me. Against a club, an axe, or a n upset bahamet? You better flee!

[Sokotra]

...and then we get back to the reality of the Zalanthas, and not the reality of Earth.  I think the basic idea is that wood on Zalanthas probably has slightly different properties than wood on earth... heh.  I remember reading in a Dark Sun manual a long time ago something about how Agafari is extremely hard... I think they even said it was comparable to metal or something.  But that was Dark Sun, and not Armageddon... but I still think certain types of wood on Zalanthas are probably pretty darn hard, since they do effectively hold a sharp edge on weapons in the game.  

And stop raping the rapiers, I like them... and of course, all bone on Zalanthas is much tougher and harder since it is such a harsh world...  :lol:  But seriously, it is a fantasy world...

[Anael]

Amen

[Dalmeth]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Anyway, the only sword I know of the rapier type that was actually used by soldiers was far larger than your average rapier.

[LauraMars]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

You could expect to die (slowly and painfully) if you got your ass into a duel.  Those motherfuckers were dangerously pointy and it was no joke to get poked by one.  Most duels in the 16th and 17th centuries were "to the death" simply by default.

If zalanthan bone/wood whatever is comparable to a metal, then it is no wonder there are able to be huge epic battles, and evil torture devices... and bone rapiers.  It's just the mystique of metal that makes it a symbol of power.

[Sokotra]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Anyway, the only sword I know of the rapier type that was actually used by soldiers was far larger than your average rapier.

Yeah, I could see how a very thin rapier could be pretty fragile... but then again, I imagine the bone or wood was hardened and treated by fire, organic chemicals/oils, or whatever other processes that Zalanthans use to create their weapons.  In this particular fantasy world I think it imaginable that they have found ways to get by in a land scarce of metal by finding processes to augment materials that are otherwise weak in comparison... and I've seen many hints at that in the descriptions that I've read on various items across the known world.  

Maybe these processes have made the wood or bone more flexible as well, hence lending the rapier one of its strengths.. to bend and not break. (again, fantasy world.. imagination time, kids!)

AND... One of the most memorable folks that I've seen use a bone rapier in the game was a master of finding exactly where to poke that thin little sucker.  Imagine you got some big brute all decked out in heavy chitin and bone armor, nothing uncovered except holes to see out of and a few weak places in the joints to allow for some movement.  And then you got this skinny guy with olive skin and eyes of 'sid wearing flexible oiled leathers and a funny hat.  In this case, by the time the big brute takes a few swings of the axe and club the skinny guy has already slid a rapier and stiletto into both eyeholes and found some nice soft spots in other places as well.

Yeah, that's an extreme example.. but my point is that I imagine with the lightweight of the rapier you would gain some speed and in the right hands could be used to target some pressure points very accurately.

[Dalmeth]

AND... One of the most memorable folks that I've seen use a bone rapier in the game was a master of finding exactly where to poke that thin little sucker.  Imagine you got some big brute all decked out in heavy chitin and bone armor, nothing uncovered except holes to see out of and a few weak places in the joints to allow for some movement.  And then you got this skinny guy with olive skin and eyes of 'sid wearing flexible oiled leathers and a funny hat.  In this case, by the time the big brute takes a few swings of the axe and club the skinny guy has already slid a rapier and stiletto into both eyeholes and found some nice soft spots in other places as well.

In a real life situation, 1 in 200 die trying to get skilled enough with a rapier to take down a mediocre armored fighter.  The weapon does not make the combatant, its skill does.

There are swords of the same style of the rapier which make more sense for the sort of fighting that occurs in Armageddon.  Let's phase rapiers out and bring those in.

[Arabian Nights]

I find it pretty funny that while people have no problems accepting that the Big Defiler casting "The Grand Fart of Nihilistic Doom" on you would mean death, they can't just let go a few things made out of bone.

This sort of argument in a fantasy world always irks me.

There are rules to the world to make it coherent.  One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.  Obsidian on Zalanthas is similar to earth obsidian, blood on Zalanthas is similar to earth blood, etc.

Defilers are not a concept taken from our reality but there are still rules about how defilers work.

Personally I have no real problem with bone chains holding up a chandelier in Armageddon, it might push the boundaries of what is realistic but if you can use a bone sword to cut through thick chitin or shells then I'd wager that Zalanthan bone is more dense than our own earthen bone.

That being said just because this is a fantasy world it doesn't mean that there aren't rules and a 'reality' based on our own.

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

[Cale_Knight]

In all honesty, rapiers really do suck for any sort of armored cmbat.  I'm not even really sure they were ever used for combat.  Weren't they just a dueling weapon?

Well, it happened like this (very much abridged description).

Back in the day, the cream of the soldierly crop went to battle in plates of steel over chain which was over padded cloth. Hundreds of pounds of protection. You also had a huge honking sword, because the odds were you'd be going up against someone also wearing that much armor.

Then you start seeing guns becoming more viable on the battlefield. Suddenly it doesn't matter how much armor you're wearing, because a well-placed shot is going to go right through the best suits of armor.

Training someone to fire a gun is a lot easier than training someone to be a knight. Heavy armor starts to phase out. Pretty soon nobody is running around in all that armor anymore.

So then people realize that to stab someone, you don't really need a big honking sword anymore. That's when you start seeing things like rapiers.

[Kalden]

Estocs, the precursor to rapiers, were originally developed just for sliding into armor(mostly mail). Rapiers are probably not all that bad - just lunge for the face or something. A "huge honking sword" is never really gonna slice through plate armor.

They used to huge honkin' swords to cut down the infantry, maybe.

[joyofdiscord]

There are rules to the world to make it coherent. One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same. Obsidian on Zalanthas is similar to earth obsidian, blood on Zalanthas is similar to earth blood, etc.
...
That being said just because this is a fantasy world it doesn't mean that there aren't rules and a 'reality' based on our own.

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

Uhm, no his argument doesn't imply that at all.  His "argument" was specifically limited to the properties of materials, not to sex differentiation.   So, no, that does not logically follow at all.

I will just never understand the kind of arguments that come out every time this sort of topic is discussed.  Have you ever played a fantasy game before?  Just because the fantasy world has some consistency to its rules doesn't mean OMG, it has to be exactly like real life, and there can be NO MAGICK.

First of all, crafting messages when you start working with bone flat out state that bone is "brittle."  So that discussion is settled.  Zalanthan bone is not flexible as a matter of course.  Not without special treatment.

For that matter, if bone is such a great wonder-material, apparently even better than metal, why can't we have bone firearms, and bone iPods and bone internal combustion engines?  What do you mean that's not realistic and doesn't fit in the game world?!  I guess you want no magick in the game and want the game to be that we all sit at our computers typing, right!?  Because there can be NO middle ground whatsoever!  

I guess the game some people want to play is like this:

>walk
You are a human.  Humans have no legs.  You cannot walk.  See "help fly."

>fly
What do you want to fly with?

>fly with wings
Wings are used to grip objects.  Read "help flippers."

>fly with flippers
You are flying.

(I went on like this for while, but decided to snip it down, because you get the point.  A "fantasy" world with no rules, or very lax ones, is dull indeed.)

Middle ground, people, is all I have to say.  Middle ground.  "But we have magick!!" is not, and never has been, a valid point in these kinds of discussions, not unless we are positing that within Zalanthas, magickers are being employed to change the properties of bone.  "Zalanthan bone is generally stronger" -is- a potentially valid point, so long as one recognizes that these things have their limits, and a bone longsword is different than a bone iPod.

It would be great if people could recognize that there is something in between "In a fantasy world, ANYTHING GOES" and "This world is realistic and therefore must be exactly like Earth in every respect."  But for some reason we have to rehash this argument -every- -single- -time- the topic comes up.

Is a bone rapier too far in terms of believability?  Eh, maybe.  I tend to think that it is.  A bone katana would be uber-kickass too, but I would retch if I ever saw one in game.

Are bone chains suspending a chandelier too far?  Nah, no big deal, they could even be open links, it just has to suspend something.

Are bone or obsidian chains (I'm pretty sure I've seen obsidian chains mentioned in a room description) used as a method of restraint too far to be believable?  Oh yes they are.  They really, really are.  Although it's conceivable that bone chains could be crafted and used in a very elaborate restraint system (one where the victim is suitably restrained so as not to be able to mess with the chains), but in any such case, rope would be just as useful and far more practical as far as cost and other considerations.

I don't want a world where it sounds like a text editor was used to search and replace "iron" and "steel" with "bone" and "obsidian."  I'd prefer one where it consistently appears that people of this world have made do with lesser materials.  Currently, Zalathas tends strongly toward the latter, which is a good thing, but that doesn't stop some people from constantly pushing for the former, for reasons I do not yet comprehend.

[Anonymous]

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.

[Arabian Nights]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I believe it to very logically follow. You people are making a big deal about believability of certain things when there are many, many things about the gameworld that aren't realistic or like the RL.

My point is that you can let certain things fly but not others that aren't really a big deal anyway? Is it really that big of a deal that a bone rapier wouldn't work in our world? No...it isn't. Doesn't even merit wasting everyone's time with this stupid discussion.

The argument is that some of you can't suspend disbelief in regards to some of the physics of the gameworld but can easily do it for other things about the gameworld that also disagree with the real world.

It's stupid.

[Arabian Nights]

By your argument then male humans should be larger and much stronger on average than females, because in the real world counterpart, that's the way it is.

One of those rules is that, in general, unless the properties of an item are specicially pointed out to be different than it's earthen counterpart then you should consider it to be roughly the same.

Really? Don't recall there ever being any documentation to that effect? Could you post a link if it exists?

The point is, we can suspend disbelief for many things that don't match up with the real world (HUGE THINGS), but little shit like a bone rapier not being likely to work in the real world and it working in the game world is the topic of this huge, pointless discussion.

[Anonymous]

It's stupid.

Well it's good to see that logic and reason will follow this debate.

Just because it's a magickal world doesn't mean things don't make sense.  I happen to agree that Zalanthan bone is probably dense enough to make a fine chain.  The overall issue I have with your reasoning is that there has to be a rationale behind things no matter what reality we are discussing.

Otherwise my character should be able to make machine guns out of sand a spit and summon great big flying clown shoes because, hey, it's a magickal world ok?

Take elves, for instance.  Ok, they are faster than humans but why?  Saying 'just because their elves and it's a magickal world' is a weak answer to me.  So when this topic came up I was glad to read from Sanvean that elves had hollow bones (which also probably plays a part in their weaker endurance) because it's a logical explanation.

[Arabian Nights]

Okay, you want a logical explanation. Okay, the bone selected for the creation of a rapier just happens to have the right density and flexibility to work as a rapier. Do you know how we know that they work? Because they exist in the game and some people use them, somewhat effectively too.

If we see it working in the game, then you would have to logically deduce that it is working for a reason.

I personally don't want to start seeing shit like this just to satisfy the really anal people:

lo rapier

A long piece of flexible white bone has been carved into a slim-bladed rapier. The handle of this weapon is wrapped tightly in leather cording to form an excellent grip and the bottom is formed into a rounded pommel. The blade is slightly sharpened at the edges, but most threatening is the razor sharp point of the weapon. Now, some of you who are extremely anal might wonder how this is possible since most bone is too brittle in the real world. Well, this bone happens to have just the right molecular structure in the world of Zalanthas that is unlike any bone existing in the real world, <insert chemistry jargon here>. Very flexible, even when carved down to this narrow of a length, this bone also can be cut to a fine edge and it would take extreme force to break it. This particular type of bone is found in the wing of a furry, feather-crested kamali that is often found along the shores of the Sea of Silt. The furry, feather-crested kamali is a social animal, usually found in large family groups where all the parent creatures help with the rearing of young. The furry, feather-crested kamali are scavengers and usually feed off carcasses they find out in the sands. They happen to pull certain enzymes from their food that causes their bones to form with the odd density and flexibility. These enzymes are: <insert chemistry jargon here>.

:roll:

[joyofdiscord]

You don't really believe that.  I know for a fact you don't, because if you take a look in your own post history, you'll see that you've had gripes about the believability of some things in game, like half-elves and mounts, and at least one thing you were just plain wrong about: being able to codedly hide in a featureless room.  There -are- no-hide rooms.  So, I guess, by your -own- definition, those concerns were

stupid

Or, would you prefer I posted a condescending, long-winded, farfetched explanation of hiding in small rooms and why half-elves are good with mounts?

Really? Don't recall there ever being any documentation to that effect? Could you post a link if it exists?

That was easy.

Bone is readily available all across the Known World, coming mainly from mekillots in the south and bahamets in the north. This material is perhaps the best common material for weapons, for it is relatively easily crafted, fairly resistant to shock, and of a good density for offensive use. It can also hold a reasonably sharp edge.
...
Appropriate animals must be hunted, carefully slain, and then the bones extracted in such a way as to give weaponsmiths the best raw material to work with (i.e., undamaged bones). (Note from joyofdiscord: this means that bone, even unshaped, living bone at the very peak of its strength and resiliency within a creature, can be readily damaged in combat, meaning that that bone rapier is going to be in trouble.)
...
Metal is so rare as to be highly prized even amongst the nobility. It is extremely strong and resilient, essentially shatter-proof, and capable of holding a very sharp edge. For all of these reasons, metal is by far the best type of material for making weapons on Zalanthas.

There you have it.  Bone is not anywhere near as useful as metal, and its properties are not comparable, not even in the least.  Now we just need someone to come along with "maybe Zalanthan metal is way stronger than Earth metal, and Zalanthan bone is, like, the same as Earth metal" so we all know we've completely wasted our time and the discussion has gone down the toilet by having to reiterate points that should be completely obvious to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for making this a discussion about the merits of a cohesive reality with rules analgous to our own in a fantasy world instead of one of those discussions where we call the other point of view stupid and express the opposing view in the most absurd terms possible, such as an overly-tehcnical item description.

You also must have missed the part where I said that having Zalanthan bone be denser than earth bone seemed like a perfectly logical conclusion to me and thus bone rapiers/chandelier chains didn't seem out of place.