Chains

[Maybe42or54]

Or hell. Since the last time I checked, copper was reddish and brown, and half the known world has red sand, which makes me think that there is a lot of metal, it just isn't refined. Since there is sooo much everywhere, I think that animals (including humans, which is why I can land on my neck and live still) have a higher ratio of iron in their bodies. More iron= stronger shit.

[Synthesis]

http://www.obsidianlab.com/pdf/xrf_oregon_big_obsidian_flow.pdf

Check out the iron oxide columns.  Those figures are reported in weight percent oxide.  (The percentage of the weight of the sample that the iron oxide accounts for.)  All the other elements are reported in parts per million.  The various iron oxides add up to about 90-95% of the sample weight for each sample....

Something to think about, at least.  I've always imagined a secretive band of uber-krathis melting down obsidian and forging iron weapons, heh.

Edited to add:  (Not to mention the TITANIUM.  Titanium greatswords.  *drool*.)

[richter]

http://www.obsidianlab.com/pdf/xrf_oregon_big_obsidian_flow.pdf

Check out the iron oxide columns.  Those figures are reported in weight percent oxide.  (The percentage of the weight of the sample that the iron oxide accounts for.)  All the other elements are reported in parts per million.  The various iron oxides add up to about 90-95% of the sample weight for each sample....

Something to think about, at least.  I've always imagined a secretive band of uber-krathis melting down obsidian and forging iron weapons, heh.

You couldn't just "melt down" obsidian and obtain iron.  However, if we're to allow the "magick" hypothesis concerning bone, why can't it be applied to extracting iron from other minerals?  Using magick, obsidian could be turned into iron or the obsidian could be "melted down" and the iron extracted.

That's why the "magick" hypothesis fails and really isn't reliable.  It's inconsistent because if it allows you to bridge one small discrepancy of the gameworld, it can equally bridge more pivotal features.  It would be nicer and easier if material strengths/weaknesses were considered rather than ignored.  It keeps the gameworld consistent.  And why would that be a bad thing?

Take care,

Jason

[Larrath]

Zalanthan bone is simply stronger.  So is Zalanthan obsidian.

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

Zalanthas is not the real world.  Please don't cling to every little thing that doesn't make sense to you and drag out the physics behind it and show us how it can't make sense.  Zalanthas is a fantasy world, with fantasy elements.  Suspend your disbelief.

[Vesperas]

I think its time those moons had a celestial clash, and then everyone can blame it on those filthy elves.

[richter]

Zalanthan bone is simply stronger.  So is Zalanthan obsidian.

Again, this is an assumption based not on material definition but on durability oversight.

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

More or less doesn't mean they are even.  Distances as great as the kind you're talking about aren't easy to perceive.  They could be much further than apart than you believe them to be.  And lacking any scientific measurement of their orbit, it's not very good evidence to cite.

Zalanthas is not the real world.

Obviously.

Please don't cling to every little thing that doesn't make sense to you and drag out the physics behind it and show us how it can't make sense.

Correction: "...that doesn't make sense."

Zalanthas is a fantasy world, with fantasy elements.  Suspend your disbelief.

Pardon me while I log in and start making snowmen in the desert.  Can't do that?  It's a fantasy world, suspend your belief!

There's no reason a critical examination of the less-thought-out elements of the game shouldn't be balanced with some reason for their existance, even if that reason isn't something the characters would know.  It's one thing to accept that some things aren't developed well and suggest ways to do so.  It's quite another thing to just blow off any attempts to fix such errors for whatever reasons I won't speculate.

Now, back to my snowman.

Jason

[Angela Christine]

Zalanthas also has two moons, one of which considerably smaller than the other if I remember correctly, and yet their orbits seem more or less even.

More or less doesn't mean they are even.  Distances as great as the kind you're talking about aren't easy to perceive.  They could be much further than apart than you believe them to be.  

It is also possible that their mass is nearly equal, even if their size isn't.  The small one could simply be more dense than the larger one.  For gravity and orbits and things mass would be more important than size, I think.




Angela Christine

[sarahjc]

No clue who Dirr is so I haven't any idea if that was meant as an insult, a compliment, or just an observation.

Neither, just observation.  If I wanted it to be an insult, I would have said Sjanimal, which you don't know either.

Now, possibilities for why this is:

Maybe Zalanthan creatures have far more dense bone that earth ones do.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  What I'm pointing out is the lack of any definitive statement to the effect of one or the other.

Do you really expect the staff to document every nit-picky thing so that you can rationalize it? But lets think about..

A lot of things are made from bone.
Really strong things are made from bone.
Some really big things are made from bone.

Maybe Zalanthan bone is a durable substance?

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be stronger. (I mean really, we don't wash our clothing with purple salt rocks on earth, but I don't see you questioning that logic either.)

Actually, there are numerous methods of washing clothes.  My personal favorite to tell people of is the use of urine.  And in this example, the "purple salt rocks" could contain sodium carbonate, which would make them effective for washing clothes.

If you wash yourself with Pee, you would smell horrible. I hope you emote that when you walk in a room.  That sad, who is to say what pee smells like on Zalanthas or that it's much worse smelling that the unwashed guy next to you. But still if I had to choose between sitting near the guy who washed his clothing with the purple salt and the guy who was washing in pee, you can guess who I would be sitting next to.

But I think it's just widly known that human/Zalanthan waste smells rather bad.

My point was that we really don't know what's in those purple saltz or why it cleans things, it's just an accepted cleaner.

And just for an FYI incase you decide to change up the pee cleaning. I actually just use one of those brushes, some sand and those bars of soap to clean my stuff, mostly all just as props. Emote out mixing some sort of sand soap mix and using the brush to dust it on and off.  Only if my PC's stuff gets stained do I take it for "professional" cleaning.  I just assume her stuff is kinda gritty.

Maybe there is a treatment that cures it to be flexable and then another to make it strong and that's how you have chains.

Say it with me, Fantasy!

Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there aren't standards for materials.

There actually is a standard for this in the game. (some places show you how it's done) You will just have to suspend your disbelief to wrap your mind around it.

Do you use the emote to make your character float around the room by flapping your arms or other such things that wouldn't be reasonable?  No.  Why?  Standards.  It's not possible to float around the room just by flapping your arms.  Why?  Because you can't create enough lift to raise your bodyweight.  The same thing is being discussed here.  There are limits to materials, regardless of whether or not you or I or anyone has stopped to consider them.  They may not be the same as "real" equivalents, but there should be standards for their qualities and limits beyond the "sounds cool" factor.

Well, you can float around a room if you have magical aspects to you. You wanna explain that one away?

But that's not the point.

The point was that certain considerations must me made when dealing in a fictitious world and working within the confines of one without metal as a building/crafting material and still maintaining some sense of societal development and advancement.

And I really don't think the making of islit or any other ways bone is used in the game are so unrealistic to the point of being silly.  For all we know, bone chain uses S link or most links are carved from a single piece of bone. All that may take a good deal of time, but anything crafted without the use of metal would.

It is a fantasy game and there are plenty of things that you will just need to take for granted in order to play it.

Anyways, Take Care

Sarah

[richter]

If you wash yourself with Pee, you would smell horrible. I hope you emote that when you walk in a room.  That sad, who is to say what pee smells like on Zalanthas or that it's much worse smelling that the unwashed guy next to you. But still if I had to choose between sitting near the guy who washed his clothing with the purple salt and the guy who was washing in pee, you can guess who I would be sitting next to.

But I think it's just widly known that human/Zalanthan waste smells rather bad.

My point was that we really don't know what's in those purple saltz or why it cleans things, it's just an accepted cleaner.

And just for an FYI incase you decide to change up the pee cleaning. I actually just use one of those brushes, some sand and those bars of soap to clean my stuff, mostly all just as props. Emote out mixing some sort of sand soap mix and using the brush to dust it on and off.  Only if my PC's stuff gets stained do I take it for "professional" cleaning.  I just assume her stuff is kinda gritty.

I didn't say I used that method in-game.  I was pointing to a historical method of washing clothes as an example (the Romans for example used this method).  Given a lack of available water to waste on rinsing the clothes afterwards, such a method probably isn't acceptable for most except those who could afford it.

Well, you can float around a room if you have magical aspects to you. You wanna explain that one away?

I'm not disputing the existance of magic in a fantasy world.  I am disputing the lack of explanation for non-magical aspects without resorting to a later excuse of "maybe it's magick".

The point was that certain considerations must me made when dealing in a fictitious world and working within the confines of one without metal as a building/crafting material and still maintaining some sense of societal development and advancement.

And plenty of historical models exist to draw upon.  Unfortunately, most of these haven't been utilized.  Instead, as someone else pointed out, metal has simply been substituted without compensating for the difference in material.  There's no reason materials can't be substituted, but the differences should at least be recognized and taken into consideration.

For example....

And I really don't think the making of islit or any other ways bone is used in the game are so unrealistic to the point of being silly.  For all we know, bone chain uses S link or most links are carved from a single piece of bone. All that may take a good deal of time, but anything crafted without the use of metal would.

S-links would be acceptable, but that should be noted to avoid someone else using chain as if it were designed in the conventional sense.  Furthermore, someone earlier in this discussion brought up a point about hair.  Making chain out of braided hair would be both an elegant and superb substitution.  Hair is extraordinarily strong and its flexibility would allow for adaptation into different shapes, something bone can't do.

It is a fantasy game and there are plenty of things that you will just need to take for granted in order to play it.

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better.  Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve?  That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies.  It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement.  It likely always will.

Take care,

Jason

[sarahjc]

And plenty of historical models exist to draw upon.  Unfortunately, most of these haven't been utilized.  Instead, as someone else pointed out, metal has simply been substituted without compensating for the difference in material.  There's no reason materials can't be substituted, but the differences should at least be recognized and taken into consideration.

II don't see that as being true at all. I think the people who create rooms and objects for the game are keenly aware of what bone can and cannot do and you can in fact take wood or bone and carve it into chain link. It's most likely really expensive and rope would be a better choice for certain things, but in hanging a chandelier I can see where the choice to use bone chain would come into play perhaps for aesthetic reasons.

Also since I don't like to repeat myself all that often.

Do you really expect the staff to document every nit-picky thing so that you can rationalize it? But lets think about..

A lot of things are made from bone.
Really strong things are made from bone.
Some really big things are made from bone.

Maybe Zalanthan bone is a durable substance?

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better.  Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve?  That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies.  It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement.  It likely always will.

Of course not, but all the same, I would rather the staff spend more time interacting with the playerbase then going back and changing all bone chain link to hair. That just seems silly and it really just doesn't seem too far fetched for me.  That's not to say that new and good ideas should be brushed aside for the old standard. I think Hair chain is a good idea, I also think rope is a good idea too.  But it certainly isn't ruining my playing experience seeing objects like bone chain in the game.

[Jherlen]

I was originally arguing in this thread, but I think it's honestly been talked to death.

I think things like bone rapiers and bone katanas don't quite fit in with other aspects of the game world. I certainly would not miss them if they were gone. I can suspend disbelief and roll my eyes a bit, though, and move on.

I don't think a six page long thread about what bone can and can't do really helps. Obviously some people think some things could be changed, some don't, but bone chains and rapiers are far far less invasive than flying people or snowmen, as far as believability goes.

The game world is one of the most amazingly detailed and consistent you will find in ANY game ANYWHERE. The staff do a remarkable job treating it with care. Obviously it's evolving, and I don't think anyone argues that it's completely free of inconsistencies or perfect. Dragging on threads like this doesn't really seem to hellp anything.

[LoD]

No one should ever cease to desire to make something even better. Why shrug one's shoulders, accept things as they are, and not try to constantly approve? That leads to stagnation and compounding discrepancies. It's always been my personal policy to question and seek improvement. It likely always will.

This happens because it's a simple case of reward on your investment of time and energy.  Is the investment of time and energy in making these changes to the game world going to provide enough of a reward to warrant it being a priority?  No one is arguing that something might not be made more in line with Earth's realism, but many are arguing that this may not be a high priority when compared to other applications of the Immortal's time.

Time spent fixing bugs, implementing features that are considered to have a larger impact on the entertainment of the playerbase than items that -can- conveniently be rationalized, interacting with the players, answering emails of player concerns, etc...

This is the crux of everyone's counter to your idealogical "make the world better" speech I see plastered on nearly every post of yours I read.  Yes, there are aspects of the world that could've been created differently, especially if decided upon at the inception of the world.  But this game was originally created by a 14 year old, and I doubt he had a degree in urban development, metallurgy, physiology, astronomy, etc...to make the appropriate decisions at every creative step.

While you may have "fun" concentrating on these issues, I'd bet a fair number of people wouldn't consider it the same.  There's more than Earth science accuracy to be considered for "making something better" here, there's the entertainment of the players.  Imms constantly have to choose between which they "make better".  Sometimes they get to do both, but I choose to forgive and accept the areas in which attention to realism might be lacking than chastize them for not fixing issues that don't -really- have any impact on the average's players enjoyment of the game.

-LoD