Noticing Hide/Sneak

[Anonymous]

Just an idea.

No, that's not just an idea, that's a fantastic idea.

hide (moving beneath a table and sinking to a crouch)

If the PC fails everyone sees:

Moving beneath a table and sinking to a crouch, the such and such man draws your attention as he tries to hide.

If the PC succeeds only the people with a successful scan would see that if anyone.

It's perfect and more than that it would be great for assassination scenarios.

[Forest Junkie]

I really love this idea as well.

If the PC succeeds only the people with a successful scan would see that if anyone.

It's perfect and more than that it would be great for assassination scenarios.

I love this especially. There are so many instances I'm reminded of in the past where this could have been used to great effect.

[Maybe42or54]

say (Looking around, squinting his narrow eyes) "You see that barrel move?

The ugly ass bitch of a man says, in sirihish, sounding retarded, "What barrel move? You been smoking spice again, havn't you?"


You hear a scream off in the distance a little while later.


Kickass.

[jhunter]

That is an awesome idea.

hide (ducking behind a tree)

[Agent_137]

Yep. this would fix a long standing RP problem. Let's see it happen! Idea it ingame today!

(I don't really trust the immortals who would be interested in working on this bit of code to regularly check this forum to find our little idea, espescially the ROLEPLAYING forum. Idea this or it won't happen.)

[joyofdiscord]

Well, I hoped someone else would chime in on why this is a (really) bad idea, but here goes anyway:

If you've succeeded in your sneak, you succeeded in getting where you want to be without suspicion, so making them "draw attention" in their hide is gratuitous.  If you fail, you can be seen.  That's fair, being as you succeeded your check for getting there subtly in the first place.  Having some ridiculous failure message for hide, especially one which goes way overboard on the "suspicious" side of the fence by actually saying that someone "draws your attention" would only promote sekrit hide-practice sessions by stealthies until they are good enough to not have this sort of crushing revalation brought down on them.  In a world where someone could lose their character for failing a stealth skill, there'd be no other choice.

Next, this would give sneakies 100% certainty that they've succeeded if their hide, simply by the fact that the entire tavern doesn't go instantly into hysterics by the fact that OMG, there is a PERSON in the CROWD!!!  As it is now, the rogue just can't be sure, which is the way it should be.

Third, requiring an emote to execute a skill itself is without ANY precedent whatsoever and would be greatly cumbersome, and give HUGE advantages to fast typers and people with fancy clients.  Much more advantage than they already have.  In real life, hiding during a chase could be as quick as ducking around a corner.  An action that takes much less time than typing "hide (ducking around a corner)".  Why not require an appended emote on crafting skills, or "steal", or ... pick your poison, how about "flee"?


Also, and this is an aside: hiding in a crowd does NOT mean you are surrounded with tall people, none of whom are looking at you.  Hiding is transitive.  You aren't becoming invisible, you are hiding FROM someone.  Hiding has a target.  When you're in a crowd of VNPCs, you're simply surrounding yourself with people who, in a refreshing contrast with many PCs, don't consider every plain commoner without a full suit of chitin armor, or a quiver and arrows, or merchant rods and silks, to be a nasty thief rogue, slinkabout.  When you are hiding, you are avoiding the gaze of the "important" people, i.e. the PCs.  You don't worry too much about VNPC commoners seeing you because most of them don't have irrational, OOC-based paranoia that ICly would be borderline mental illness.


My previous post made it clear that I'm fine with people acting stealthy being treated suspiciously, but this will just provide people with encouragement to make it more excessive than it arguably already is.  In a year we'll see a GDB post that says "Why shouldn't everyone in the tavern notice that one guy in the crowd?  The echo even SAYS, he draws your attention!!"


Want to describe how you're hiding people, two words:

CHANGE LDESC

[joyofdiscord]

Also, did you guys know that we already have hemote?  It's called the look emote.  I know for a fact that you can see who a shadow is looking at if you pick them up on scan.  I'm almost positive you can see the emotes too, but I don't think the defiler in question whom I spotted used any look emotes, because he probably didn't think he'd been spotted.

Let this be a lesson to all, even 8-karmas: if you are concealed, look emotes are a great way to get across your actions to the people that need to know and conceal them from those that don't.

My stealth routine often consists of "sneak, e, hide, l someone with emote describing my actions."  It's a great solution, accomplishing much of what this idea would, exposing me immediately if I failed my hide, and making me suspicious since I got into the room without an echo since I succeeded with my sneak.  And it does all this naturally, with touches of uneasiness, uncertainty, and shadiness, not in a heavy-handed "EVERYONE LOOK, THIS GUY FAILED HIDE" way that sounds like it belongs in a pseudo RP H&S mud.

[amoeba]

My stealth routine often consists of "sneak, e, hide, l someone with emote describing my actions."

I'm fairly certain looks from a successful hide don't echo.The same is true for changing your ldesc while hidden, although that one I'm less sure of.

[Delirium]

Looking at someone while successfully hidden does not echo, even if the person might be able to scan and pick up on you as a strange shadow.  Obviously, looking at them when you're not hidden echos fine.

Changing your long description has no effect on your hide status, so feel free to make liberal use of it.  I do wish that when someone picked up on *a strange shadow is here* changing your ldesc would change it to *a strange shadow crouches low behind a boulder* (for example).

Looking at someone while cloaked with certain other means will be noticed if that person can already see you.  I've never seen a look emote attatched but I don't think that there ever were look emotes attatched.

[joyofdiscord]

Looks while hidden don't echo, which is why it is a good way to spice up your sneaking-round, since you can get a bit daring with the look emotes and offer up a chance for you to be caught shuffling around and eyeing people, since you'll still fail occasionally and raise some eyebrows.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've even exchanged some emoted looks with a scanning char that could see my hidden char that no one else responded to or seemed to notice in the least.  Either way, look emotes seem like a nice complement to stealthy actions, apparently with built in code determinations to ensure that the appropriate people see it.

[Armaddict]

Having some ridiculous failure message for hide, especially one which goes way overboard on the "suspicious" side of the fence by...

The failure message would only be as ridiculous as you make it.

actually saying that someone "draws your attention" would only promote sekrit hide-practice sessions by stealthies until they are good enough to not have this sort of crushing revalation brought down on them. In a world where someone could lose their character for failing a stealth skill, there'd be no other choice.

You mean drawing your attention the same way an emote does?

Secret hide sessions occur even now, at least this way they'd have to come up with an emote each time they used it.  Doing it for the hell of it might become a hassle.

Someone can lose their character for spilling their mug of ale or forgetting to bow to a pissed off templar who talks to them.  -Non- stealthy characters can die for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.  Your average commoner can be killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  You're telling me a failed stealth skill, one where you're making an effort to not attract attention and not succeeding in that goal is supposed to be free of suspicion and mistreatment?  It's not fair, but neither is the criminal system of allanak and most of the political affairs of the game.  I don't think it's meant to be 'fair', it's meant to be as close to what Allanak's culture is like.  Isn't that the role-play?

Going back to the original counter-statement of this thread...if you want to be free of suspicion, don't be suspicious.  If I see a guy walking through my fraternity house, keeping his head down and not meeting anyone's gaze, slipping around people quietly and not conversing, and watching people from afar, I'm suspicious.

They could also come in and 'blend in', act just like anyone else, converse, and -let- people know he's there, but not attract attention because he's being normal.  But that's not the hide skill, is it?  That's acting.  Sometimes, that's a more viable choice than depending on a skill to not attract attention.

[joyofdiscord]

Catching a weirdo lurking around is already handled by sneak.  Someone staying out of your sight is covered by hide.  If you fail at your hide, you are within their sight.  This can still be very very bad for you.  Putting a mandatory emote on every hide is tremendous babying/handholding when there are already coded tools available to roleplay the action.  Every single skill has a way to describe what's being done, so every single one would have to require an emote.

FWIW, learning how to be sneaky is one of the more enjoyable soloRP experiences if you end up having to do it alone.  People that are just spamming hide to up their skillz are found sooner or later, and they aren't any different then the ones spamming hunt or scan or craft widget.

Now, this is a separate matter from having a failure echo on hide.  A point could be made for it, but I just don't think it makes sense within the current context of stealth skills.  Hide doesn't happen in an instant like sneak.  Hide is extended, and if you arrived after the coded attempt.  there'd be no way to tell the difference between a failed hider and someone just standing in the room, except for change ldesc, which we already have.  Sneak handles moving around and possibly drawing attention to yourself.  Hide handles being seen or not.  The movement delay and hide skill delay gives people a chance to see you even if you are maxxed.  It's elegant.  The only thing that would make it more elegant would be a true hidden-emote command.

[Cyrian20]

1. I don't treat it as a shadow, I treat it as my character notices someone being sneaky, but if I am not being chased by anyone or all paranoid from spice my character could care less

2. I have never rp'd noticing a failed sneak unless I was with the individual giving lessons on how to use the crowd or shadows to your advantage.

[Morrolan]

I ignore all stealthy attempts unless my character is pulled into the situation.

Then again, I also don't generally "look" at people unless I really am paying attention to them.

I'm not a fan of my character walking into a tavern and having six people "look" at him/her.  My character is not that interesting.

How about if "assess -v" were expanded to add a few things, like armed/unarmed (as in wielding a weapon at that moment), and maybe a description of their cloak/aba/hooded santa-suit/whatever?  That way this basic information, which people register almost unconsciously and with just a glance, could be seen -separately- from "look," which is also used for checking someone out in detail.

--or--

what if:

look <person>'s right hand

(for example)

returned the information as to what was in the hand as well as "you see nothing special."

Morrolan

[keithor]

In regards to the hide having an emote REQUIRED, that seems a bit much. But to make it OPTIONAL, like rest/stand/etc..., would allow you to give context to your failed hide attempt.  

 I paticularly like this solution because it allows for expanded rp when someone fails their hide, that's why we're here right?

[X-D]

I'm not a fan of my character walking into a tavern and having six people "look" at him/her. My character is not that interesting.

So, earlier today IRL, I was in a bar, about 40-50 people in it, call it a little over half full, dimly lit, music playing, people talking, and I was paying attention to the people around me, and I noticed, that when the door opened, over half the people would at least glance over...every time. Hell, about the same number would glance up each time the bathroom doors opened.

I figure, that if 20 of 40 people check and they really don't have to worry much about somebody ramming a sword/dagger into them, or a pack stolen off thier back, or Lord Templar Hardnose walking up behind them and having one of his two thousand pound half-giant guards snatching them up. That it does not seem odd when a few of the -rightfully- paranoid zalanthians glance over when somebody new walks in.
Just my take on that one.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't think the look spam you get when you walk in anywhere is a problem. Yes, there are vNPCs everywhere, why don't people look at them, etc ,etc. I look at everyone I can, all the time. If my character is mentally distracted, I'll drop an emote about it being an idle glance or with a blank expression or something to indicate it. But I, as the player, want to know what this person looks like, as to properly visualize the scene. No, my character may not actually take note of the person being looked at in any way. But I, as the player, want to know the description and clothing for my own mental image, even if you're just passing through.

[Cyrian20]

Yes, there are vNPCs everywhere, why don't people look at them

Not disagreeing with BFS at all, just adding something on that remark. People actually do look at vnpcs a lot. I know I do when in the middle of emoting I might look room, or scroll up to look over the room to see what is going on that I can use in the emote to add color. That is basically the same as looking at the vnpcs. Just thought I would add that little tid bit.

[Angela Christine]

People already complain about the look echo (not really spam) when PCs look at other PCs.  Imagine the spam if everyone "looked" at hoards of NPCs and VNPCs every hour.  I wouldn't consider that an improvement, so I tend to think PCs look at VNPCs virtually while reading the room description.


Angela Christine

[Cyrian20]

Yeah what AC said, she is better at the whole communication thing then me. I stick to nod pc and kill pc. just easier that way