Noticing Hide/Sneak

[Armaddict]

Just did a quick scan, so apologies if I missed anything important or am reiterating something someone else said.

The strange shadow bit...yes, there are shadows everywhere, but at the same time, I don't think you should be expected to ignore that strange shadow you spotted.  I think the strange shadow points to something that seems out of place, otherwise, there would be no use seeing the strange shadows in the first place.  If you're -trying- to avoid notice, and someone sees it...they're noticing that you're -trying- to avoid notice.  I play a lot of rogue-type characters, and I don't expect people to ignore me if they spot me.  Hiding in itself is enough of a protection, I'd prefer that rogues stop complaining about being spotted.  If you're caught, you're caught.  Don't criticize other people for catching you.  If you think there was a problem with the method of how you were caught, emailing the imms would be better than instantly accusing them of bad role-play.

Hidden emotes...I love to do them.  Sometimes they add a whole lot of feeling to a scene that's going on.  Imagine in a book where you see two perspectives, the watcher and the watched.   Hidden emotes are a way of doing this same thing for all players who can see it.  Some emotes give them things to react off of.  If you do hidden emotes, don't expect everyone to play perfectly as you planned.  So, I generally won't even do them unless it's a scene I want to try to add to.  While it does bug me when someone sees a hidden emote and instantly stands up and scans...I kind of expect it to happen every once in awhile, so I can't really complain when it does happen.

[jmordetsky]

Outside the city - failed hide/sneak should be immediately noticed

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow). Failed sneak would might catch someone's eye as suspicious and should be played accordingly.

Inside the city (indoors highly populated area) - Same as above.

Inside the city (indoors low, like my apartment)  - Failed hide/sneak would be immediately noticed.

The lesson here is that if you sneak or hide and fail, you've made people around you suspicious and they should react accordingly. Don't be surprised when they do.

[Kalden]

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow).

Of course, this is actually a successful hide that's been detected by someone with high scan. Just to clear that up. I can understand suspicion, but what I've seen does go beyond suspicion. It's immediate action/assumption about how people are hidden.

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

[Anonymous]

Uhh...how is this an argument 'tactic'?

I was referring to the habit of discussion board posters to take a point they disagree with and reword it in broken chatspeak with stereotypical punctuation/spelling errors in what can only be assumed is meant to demonstrate how idiotic they find the mindset they are arguing against.  Specifically:

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

[Delirium]

Tongue in cheek.  So very sorry if it irritated your intellect.

My point was, so many people seem to rush to the boards if anything happens to their character that they don't agree with or like, even if it was the consequence of perfectly IC events.   They dislike the idea of their characters having flaws or allowing their characters to make mistakes, and this, to me, seems childish and immature.

Thus, the wording of my original statement.

[Cale_Knight]

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious?

I disagree with your line of reasoning. You seem to be saying that not only do I need to have a high scan, but I also need to have a RP jusification for spotting you that you agree with.

In my mind, if you've hit a sucessful coded hide, you're employing techniques that make you effectively invisible to the majority of zalanthas. You're not just hanging out by the bar. You could do that with a change of ldesc. You're not just walking with a big crowd. You could do that with emotes. You have codedly made yourself invisible, which says to me that you're doing something extra special to put you that way.

If my character with his especially good eyesight can somehow spot that, of course he's going to be suspicious. You're obviously skulking or pressed up against the wall or otherwise being extra sneaky.

[Anonymous]

Tongue in cheek.  So very sorry if it irritated your intellect.

No need for apologies, especially not snide ones.

My point was, so many people seem to rush to the boards if anything happens to their character that they don't agree with or like, even if it was the consequence of perfectly IC events.

What bothers me is the implication that the OPs point, which agree or not seemed thought out and not kneejerk, is somehow irrational and done in the heat of the moment, at least going by your statement.  It seems pretty presumptive on your part and dismissing any point out of hand after deigning it a kneejerk post is counter-productive.  It is possible to have a problem with the game or common player behavior that doesn't stem from someone screwing your PC over five minutes ago.

In general I think people who fail at a sneak or hide need to roll with it and not let themselves get too upset over how people react.  However I wish the people who see a 'strange shadow' or a failed sneak would vary their reactions a little, and I say this as someone who I don't think has ever successfully pulled off a sneak or hide, not around PCs at least.  

To me a perfect scenario for a failed sneak is for one person to 'happen' to notice and snicker, one person to notice something and then shrug it off as his eyes playing tricks on him and another person to not notice at all.  Seemingly choreographed stand->scan responses are boring.

This, to me, seems childish and immature, thus the wording of my original statement.

So the appropriate response for something you find childish and immature is to respond in kind?

Well, nyah nyah nyah to that.

[amoeba]

If my character with his especially good eyesight can somehow spot that, of course he's going to be suspicious.

I think this is what gets some people caught up. Scan is not bionic eyesight, it's not super eyeballs.  Rather it's an experienced peson noticing someone out of place.  Think of people who are trained to spot terorists in an airport.  They know what to look for.  If people would get off this "invisiblity" thing and approach the situation as "keen observational skills" they would see that it is possible to spot that one sneaky character with the shifty eyes in the crowd, if they are good enough.  

And for you folks who tend to get worked up at getting spotted, a really good person at hide is almost impossible to see by most people no matter how hard they scan.  If you get seen, maybe you are just not that good. Roll with what the code is telling you.

[joyofdiscord]

Stealth skills are already powerful enough without people having to treat a failed sneak like a successful sneak and a strange shadow like any other barfly.  If you get noticed, tough.  You were acting suspicious.  Yeah, this does depend on the situation, but in even the best of cases, you're still acting suspicious, and you still got noticed.

I play mostly stealthies and I also second the notion that an experienced rogue char can usually beat most peoples' scan.  Read "help scan", and try playing a long-lived sneaky character who gets decent at stealth.

[Bestatte]

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow).

Of course, this is actually a successful hide that's been detected by someone with high scan. Just to clear that up. I can understand suspicion, but what I've seen does go beyond suspicion. It's immediate action/assumption about how people are hidden.

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

If you're hanging out at the bar, people would see that you're hanging out at the bar. Anyone walking into the room and taking a quick look around would see this. Hiding isn't hanging out. It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

Hiding can be conspicuous for people with good enough scan skill. Hanging out is a very -un-conspicuous thing to do...which is why most people hope they won't be noticed when they're hanging out. Noticed..as opposed to seen.

Yes, I see that there's a green-eyed guy in the corner. But - he isn't important enough for me to take note of. His existence merely registers on my "who's here" graph. The guy's presence hasn't attracted my attention, it isn't strange that a green-eyed guy would be on the corner. But yeah - he's there, no big deal.

Yes, I see that there's some strange change in the lighting down in the corner. I can't put my finger on it, and BECAUSE I can't put my finger on it, AND because I see it, my "who's here" graph goes up a bit and makes me wonder what's so strange. And so - I NOTICE - as in, take note (mentally). The existence of this strange change in the lighting down there is pointed out to me, by myself, or by the shadow. Either way - it has attracted my attention.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you're hanging out at the bar, people would see that you're hanging out at the bar. Anyone walking into the room and taking a quick look around would see this. Hiding isn't hanging out. It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

Those examples are ridiculous.  In my opinion the only reasonable way to describe hiding in a crowded area is exactly what you say it isn't.  Yes it's true, hanging out at the bar doesn't constitute hiding.  Rather, an elf in hiding might be hanging around in a group of ten of his tribemates, all dressed pretty much alike.  A dusty dwarf might be sitting at a virtual table with a bunch of obsidian miners.  A half-giant might just slouch in the corner and not move, in an attempt to draw as little attention to him as he possibly can.

[Bestatte]

Yeah they're a bit odd, but that was the example I was responding to. Blame it on the guy who wrote it hmm? He's the one who likened hiding to "hanging out at the bar." I took his example and explained why it didn't seem to make good sense to me.

[jmordetsky]

If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

If you're just hanging out at the bar, then why are you hiding? My point of view is that if you took the time to type "hide" while in a bar, then you've done something that someone with a high scan skill will take note of as suspicious. Maybe you're sitting in corner alone, maybe you're hiding under a table.

If you didn't, then you don't really need to use the hide command. There is way too much interpretation as to what 'hide' is and it was probably never designed for you to use as means to hang out in a tavern and listen away without being noticed.

The way I see it, the only solution is that if you use the hide command, then you have tried to 'hide' yourself in your surroundings and if someone else notices you, then they've noticed you in your surroundings and if you are in a heavily populated area then you now 'stick out' to the person who noticed you. imho. I hate tavern hiders. It's so shit.

[Cale_Knight]

I think this is what gets some people caught up. Scan is not bionic eyesight, it's not super eyeballs.  Rather it's an experienced peson noticing someone out of place.  

I agree that "eyesight" was a poor word to use, yes.

[Kalden]

You seem to be saying that not only do I need to have a high scan, but I also need to have a RP jusification for spotting you that you agree with

Not at all. If you could take the time to read, you'll see what I actually said: I, as well as just about everyone else, am perfectly willing to admit I'm seen when I'm spotted. What I'm not willing to admit is that I'm automatically some thief or spy because you see me as *a strange shadow*.

I take issue with being tackled simply because I'm a shadow.

In my mind, if you've hit a sucessful coded hide, you're employing techniques that make you effectively invisible to the majority of zalanthas.

Since when were PCs the majority of Zalanthas? There are 500k people in Allanak. There are maybe a few hundred PCs.

. You have codedly made yourself invisible, which says to me that you're doing something extra special to put you that way.

No. I've never been told that. I am blending in with the crowd, like all the other scores of 'invisible' people.

What bothers me is the implication that the OPs point, which agree or not seemed thought out and not kneejerk, is somehow irrational and done in the heat of the moment, at least going by your statement. It seems pretty presumptive on your part and dismissing any point out of hand after deigning it a kneejerk post is counter-productive.

She's being witty(as usual). Part of the reason for this post is that I've had it happen a couple of times in the past few weeks(as well as a few times in the past - it's usually from the players I'd expect it from) and I was hoping that these players might come forward to defend their actions(doesn't seem to have happened). Force 'em to think a little... :roll:

Regardless, I still thought this subject could use a little more discussion. And it's a small notch above some of this other stuff, in terms of intelligence.

It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

That's far more unrealistic in a public area; actually, it's frequently impossible, depending on one's size. Maybe you missed all the previous discussion through the years, but blending in with the crowds (small groups of virtual people, whatever) has generally been accepted as a way to hide. You can hide in the shadowy corners too, but I was under the impression that blending with the crowd is accepted.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't pass yourself off as an authority on something you aren't. Yes, I would like to know -how- exactly my character hides, but I sure don't do the crabwalk through the crowds of the Barrell and the Gaj till I find a nice cozy spot under a table.

A dusty dwarf might be sitting at a virtual table with a bunch of obsidian miners.

How is a human hanging out at the bar with a bunch of other rough-looking humans any different from that example? Would you be happier if he was at a table with these people? Does it really make a difference?

[Bestatte]

Passing myself off as an authority? Huh? This is a discussion, open to whoever is interested in discussing it. I was interested in discussing it. Nowhere have I claimed to be any kind of authority, and in fact, in all the characters I've had, as far as I know, my hiding skill (if I had it) sucked. I rarely even used it.

As someone who's played a PC with very high scan, I usually ignored shadows unless I was in a situation where I "needed" to notice them. I saw hiding -and- invis people all over the place, but didn't react to them much of the time because *my character* had no need or desire to react to them.

My comment in my response thread to you concerned your comment about hanging out at a bar. My opinion on the matter stands.

"Hanging out at a bar" is not hiding. Hiding is not "hanging out at a bar."

[EvilRoeSlade]

How is a human hanging out at the bar with a bunch of other rough-looking humans any different from that example? Would you be happier if he was at a table with these people? Does it really make a difference?

It is different.  In every tavern I've been in, only one bar has been mentioned in the description.  This bar is always a coded bar and not a virtual one.  If you're sitting at it, you're sitting at it.  If you're hiding... well, you're not.

[Armaddict]

I'll agree with the other posters that when hidden you are not just 'hanging out'.

There is a purpose when you type hide, and that is to be unseen or unnoticed.  Whether that be standing in a group of ten of your tribemates (in which case I sincerely hope you're emoting it out, rather than leaving the scanner the responsibility of creating those vnpcs to explain your hidden status), turning your face away to avoid notice, or hiding behind a barrel, you are -making efforts- to avoid attention.

People hanging out are hanging out.  They're comfortable.  They aren't out of the ordinary.

People hiding are taking measures to keep themselves out of sight and out of mind so that they can do whatever they're doing.  Those measures are exactly what a high scanner sees.

If you don't want to be regarded with suspicion, quite simply, don't act suspicious.  Hide -is- a suspicious skill, and people who use it are quite obviously up to something.  Whether you're a thief or spy or not, you are putting yourself in the position to be mistaken as such.

I'll also reiterate what Bestatte (I think?) and Delirium have said.  I think this post is more than likely the result of someone having to deal with a scene that they didn't agree with.  I've been in that position before, and been dealt with harshly.  Or at least, it certainly seems as though that's where this post came from.  If not, apologies.

If so, my only advice is to once again report any situation where you feel you've been duped to the powers that be, and they will either correct it, or tell you you're mistaken.  The code is there as a guideline for the rest of us...if we see a strange shadow (which, I'll have you note, is just the code's way of letting us know we see a hidden person.  Not every hidden person is going to be a 'strange shadow'.), then we see it.  Perhaps we'll ignore it if the rp of the scanner decides it so.   If you demand that it get ignored, don't hide, and they won't have -any- reason to suspect you.

[Manhattan]

i propose a solution. instead of typing hide in your console, type "change ldesc stands against a darkened corner, melding with the crowd"

but if only 'change ldesc' allowed longer strings...

[Synthesis]

1. I think people are getting too caught up in the 'shadow' thing.  Just because the code says you see a shadow, doesn't mean all you see out of place is a stinking shadow.  It's just a generic message to let you know something is out of place, and frankly, I think it should be changed, because it's a silly message.

2.  You can't see someone's ldesc if you can only spot them with scan, so hiding and changing your ldesc to reflect what you're doing will not help this problem at all.

3.  If you get spotted while hiding, suck it up.  Chances are you weren't emoting exactly what you were doing while you were hiding anyway, so that gives other PCs the -right- to react to you however they please, until you start emoting exactly what you're doing.  Sorry, chum, but that's just fair play.

4.  Hide is a ridiculously powerful skill, and it can be countered essentially by only one skill that very few people have.  One class that can spot you essentially couldn't do anything about it even if they did, one class is only good at it in the desert, and the other rarely survives long enough to branch it.  So, chances are, you're going to go a very, very long time without getting spotted by scan.  If you got spotted at all, it's probably because you failed your hide attempt.

[jmordetsky]

When I first saw the shadow I thought it was a magicker. I acted accordingly, much to the ammusement of those around me.

[Agent_137]

Honestly I think the echo for failed sneak attempts should be different.
Maybe in the cities, just have a normal entry/exit message.
Maybe in the outdoors, something about them kicking some sand or the scuff of their feet on rocks...rustle of grass...the snap of a twig...something dependant upon the situation.

this is where roleplay comes in, in my opinion.

This is a mushy MUD. It's up to the players to describe just HOW the sneak failed.

The trouble in Arm is that you don't know when you failed a sneak. So how do you let others know just HOW you failed the sneak? Same for hiding.

So who's job is it to give the appropriate ingame flavor to the failed action? How can this be done?

Should it be done via complicated code?
I don't think so. Too much work, too little return.

Personally, I think a good answer is to let the failed sneaker/hider know when they've failed through a subtle IC emote. If they pick up on you noticing them OOCly, perhaps they can then tell you just HOW they failed.

Just an idea i just had. I don't pretend that it's well thought out.

[Delirium]

Perhaps a solution for the time being would be to make liberal use of movement emotes while sneaking.  If you sneak north, easing soft-footed around an agafari tree-trunk, then the person noticing you could glance up at a twig snapping.

[Agent_137]

beautiful solution for sneaking.

now hiding?

[Armaddict]

Maybe hide should -require- an 'emote' or somesuch, so that a failed attempt would show what they're doing.  Perhaps that could even tie in with what a scanner sees.

It might encourage people using hide to take a look around and more fully think out -how- they are avoiding notice, as well.

Just an idea.  Probably not a good one, either, but worth a shot.