Noticing Hide/Sneak

[Kalden]

I know this has been gone over time and time again, but I feel like we need to discuss it again. I feel like I'm playing with different people than I did a year ago or so.

Most of the times I've been spotted while hidden I get people who run around screaming, "A strange shadow is here! Ohmygod it's a spy! Help! Help!"

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? What should the proper response be, considering the fact that they can't see you with a real ldesc?

Similarly, if you see someone fail a sneak, a common response is, "Wow, you're not very good at that."  Wtf? Walking? Does it seem like I stumbled? Yeah, you attraction attention, but is it necessarily all that unusual? It depends on the context of the situation, doesn't it?

If you fail a sneak as you're walking in the alleys of the rinth, it could be assumed that you tried to be quiet and made a sound. If you fail a sneak as you're walking down the street in the middle of the day, it might be assumed that you're walking along in the shadow, or drifting along with a group of people.

So, the two questions:

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

[Maybe42or54]

1) At the bar? I can't see a shadow, there is people all around me and shadows all over the damn place.

2)If I see someone failing sneak? I am going to keep tabs on them because they fucked up so badly that my guy at the bar saw him when he wasn't paying attention. But give me a few days and I'll forogt, OOCLY, so my pc wont remember ICly. Or he may just be busy enough or talking that they didn't notice some drunk fucker tripping over his feet.

[Manhattan]

1. nothing. shadows are everywhere, man. not like I would go "omg someone call the militia there's someone snooping around!"

2. a failed sneak would probably look like a person ducking amongst a crowd of people, which is pretty noticeable in real-life. but in arm, I'd ignore it and treat it like a person that's just walking on his toes...no big deal. not like I would go "omg someone call the militia there's someone snooping around!"

[jstorrie]

Depends on the context. If I see someone fail a sneak in the Gaj, they've failed to duck into the crowd, so they just look like... everyone else. If they fail in a shadowy alley, then they probably do look like they're actively sneaking around. Ditto for desert sneak.

[amoeba]

I think these things can be tricky for a lot of people as the interpretation. I don't think there is a single simple answer.  I would prefer people give others the benefit of the doubt before dismissing thier reactions.

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

I think it depends on where it is and who notices.  A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.  Also a average Amos's reaction may be different than that of someone tasked to enforce the law.   That Kuraci soldier is looking for trouble makers.   He knows the clientel, he knows the place. Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place.  But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

In terms of the hidden emotes.  These can be tricky. First I would look as to why you are doing the emote. IMO it should have a purpose other than, cool look at me, I'm uber at hiding.  An emote of *someone reaches in  Amos's cloak" is stating an action that even those with untrained eyes might notice, but a emote like "someone shifts about restlessly." seems in my eyes to be done more for showoff purposes than any roleplaying one.  People wouldn't notice someone hidden's resltless movement, but you put out on the table that someone is hidden here, and asking them to not react.  In the long run, they will react based on thier experience with roleplay.

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

See some of the above for this. Depends on who you are, and where it is.  If you go about trying to skulk about in the ailes of the 7-11, a sure sign of a potential beer run, be carefull of the clerk reaching for the shotgun.  Circumstance dictates response.

[Demonaire]

Could Amoeba's response be archieved? This has to be by far the best response I have ever read regarding the sneak/hide debate that many do not seem to grasp fully. That is a very helpful piece of text to anyone unsure of how to react with something such as this delicate matter. Well done.





- Demonaire -

[Kalden]

It's just too bad that I don't run into you guys more often IG.  

1) At the bar? I can't see a shadow, there is people all around me and shadows all over the damn place.

So we have to assume that it is indeed a shadow? What happened to mingling with the crowds?

2)If I see someone failing sneak? I am going to keep tabs on them because they fucked up so badly that my guy at the bar saw him when he wasn't paying attention.

Yeah, but you notice everybody else who walks in. And let's not assume your guy isn't paying attention. You're watching the door. You see a commoner walk through. Then you see another commoner "attempt to walk through stealthily".

Now, I want a straight answer: where does the difference lie? Let's say he doesn't emote anything, or have a travel emote. Are you going to force a stumbling walk on him? Or force something disruptive on him?

What I'm getting at is how exactly do you think he failed, and how is that action  suspicious?

but in arm, I'd ignore it and treat it like a person that's just walking on his toes...no big deal.

Is that a good assumption? Do you think people are tiptoing into crowded rooms?

If I see someone fail a sneak in the Gaj, they've failed to duck into the crowd, so they just look like... everyone else.

Agreed.

[Kalden]

Could Amoeba's response be archieved? This has to be by far the best response I have ever read regarding the sneak/hide debate that many do not seem to grasp fully. That is a very helpful piece of text to anyone unsure of how to react with something such as this delicate matter. Well done.

Now, no offense, but all he said is "it depends".

I would prefer people give others the benefit of the doubt before dismissing thier reactions.

I'll just say that the examples provided in my initial post actually happened. The first one has happened several times.

A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.

How so? Both have large virtual populations hanging around, essentially 'hidden'.

Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place. But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

Indeed. However, they both have scan at adequate levels - they are both just as perceptive. Profession is often irrelevant to skill in Arm. Basically what I'm getting is: if you see *a strange shadow* in a bar, you can tell that something is not quite right with that person. They are deliberately avoiding notice. That's a sensible viewpoint.

So the only question that's left is how that individual wants to respond to this person who's subtly (or obviously) avoiding notice.

Could/should we safely assume that everyone hiding in taverns (or public?) is subtly avoiding notice, rather than obviously hiding, i.e. crouched under the bar?

In terms of the hidden emotes. These can be tricky. First I would look as to why you are doing the emote. IMO it should have a purpose other than, cool look at me, I'm uber at hiding.

Yeah, not a fan of handing out hidden emotes. That's a whole 'nother story, however, best left for another thread (or for previous threads).

[jhunter (2lazy)]

Honestly I think the echo for failed sneak attempts should be different.
Maybe in the cities, just have a normal entry/exit message.
Maybe in the outdoors, something about them kicking some sand or the scuff of their feet on rocks...rustle of grass...the snap of a twig...something dependant upon the situation.

[bloodfromstone]

Unfortunately, everything is situational with the failed sneak. I've always wondered how to react to this. It would be nice if we could know that we had failed a sneak so that we could emote properly, but the reasons that this can never happen are obvious. I don't know how to properly react without forcing action on another player, which I do try to avoid.

[amoeba]

A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.

How so? Both have large virtual populations hanging around, essentially 'hidden'.

I think virtual populations are used too much as a crutch sometimes to ignore the suroundings and some simple common sense.  In a rinthi bar one would *expect* to see a number of people skulking about.  I'll skip the tavern in Luirs for a time and focus on a noble bar.  Would one expect to see as many people skulking about?  My point is your reaction should be different in a place where it is ordinary, verse one where it is not.

Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place. But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

Indeed. However, they both have scan at adequate levels - they are both just as perceptive. Profession is often irrelevant to skill in Arm. Basically what I'm getting is: if you see *a strange shadow* in a bar, you can tell that something is not quite right with that person. They are deliberately avoiding notice. That's a sensible viewpoint.

So the only question that's left is how that individual wants to respond to this person who's subtly (or obviously) avoiding notice.

Could/should we safely assume that everyone hiding in taverns (or public?) is subtly avoiding notice, rather than obviously hiding, i.e. crouched under the bar?

I'd say the profession is germane in terms of the reaction.  A hunter might eye someone suspisiously and fasten thier pack.  A militia however would have less of a polite reaction.

In terms of how are they hidding?  How many different ways are there to hide in a crowded dark bar? A well lit, sparcely populated one? The barracks? A sand dune?  

Yes, I'll sound like a broken record. It depends.  If someone notices you, how do you react?  You are the one setting the scene.   You step out from behind a column? You seperate yourself from the crowd? You crawl out from under that bunk?

[JohnGalt]

Personally I'd like to see a failed sneak look like a normal movement command, UNLESS the observer also is talented in sneaking, then its skill vs. skill to determine if they notice you were trying to sneak and failed, or if they just see you walking along.

[Manhattan]

listen, you don't know if you fail a sneak. you could try blending in with the crowds, thinking you've sneaked away safely, but somebody could have keen eyes and spot you. it's a fact of real-life and a fact of arm. you -think- you did well, but someone else would notice otherwise...which is the reason for the room echo "stealthily moves north".

as for the reaction...that is a different story. a person who fails at sneak would certainly look odd, but shouldn't be odd enough to warrant any reaction like "OMG OMG A THIEF!" i'm not trying to be an RP-judge here because it's just my opinion, but i've seen far too many "wrong" reactions to a failed hide/sneak.

let's say a PC "steathily moves north" out of a tavern, the situation tells us that the PC merely walked out of the bar trying to avoid attention. so why would a militia want to follow that PC, catch up to him on the road just to say "you're not very good at that." stupid reaction if you ask me.

now let's say a PC "steathily moves north" into a private room where a top-secret meeting is being held. the militiaman spots the PC and reacts accordingly, halting the spy from entering the room. SMART reaction if you ask me!

see the difference?

[Manhattan]

one thing that irks me is the fact that so many people treat hide/sneak negatively as if it was some criminal activity. they seems to always associate hide/sneak with a thieving, backstabbing PC. okay, so what if a child was playing a game with his friends and hid under a table using the "hide" skill...would that still attain a negative response?

i'll tell you what a strange shadow is, it's the disembodied shadow made by someone ducked under a table, behind a crate, flat against a wall, in a corner, etc. if your PC saw this 'shadow' in a crowded gambling hall, what would be his reaction? well, it depends. but i'll tell you what's not right: "a thief ! a spy! call the militia quickly!" put a little more thought into your reactions please, for the game's sake.

instead: emote pokes around under a table, investigating the shadow.
say (glancing around into the darkness) Is there anybody there? Who's there?

shadow != blatant hiding

[Rindan]

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

If you see a strange shadow, it means that you see something suspicious.  If it wasn't meant to set up red alerts that you see something out of the ordinary, then what is the purpose of showing it at all?  If you are in a tavern, you might check your pockets.  If you are in some place that is supposed to be private, it might be a good time to draw weapons and start getting stabby.  A strange shadow means that you failed to stay out of sight to someone, and for them, it is obvious that you are trying to go unnoticed.  If you don't have your ldesc changed to explain where you are, don't be surprised when they act like you are doing something damn suspicious.

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

The point is that you failed your sneak.  Instead of going unnoticed, you brought attention to yourself.  To the person that saw you fail your sneak, it was obvious that you were trying to avoid detection.  As to how to react, it depends upon the person.  My mean old mercenary would shout and point at you just to be an asshole because he likes to start shit.  My noble guard would take notice and watch you damn carefully, if not flat out confront you and your suspicious behavior around my charge.  My 'rinther elf might mock your incompetence if he felt in the mood to kick someone down a little, and completely ignore you if he didn't.  My obsidian miner probably wouldn't give two shits and completely ignore you.  My militia man probably would ignore you all together unless you did something stupid.  My spice sifter in Red Storm wouldn't give a damn and ignore you as well.

The point?  How people react entirely depends upon who they are.  In my opinion, what is not negotiable is the fact that you failed to make a stealthy entrance and that your blundering attempts at stealth made it look like you were trying and failing to go undetected.  The more respectable the people and the place you did it around, the more likely someone is going to think that you are up to no good.  Fail a sneak in the 'rinth or Red Storm and no one cares.  Fail a sneak into the Sanctuary or the Trader's around nobles and stabby happy guards and, well, you take your chances.

If you really want to pad yourself against people overreacting, include how you are sneaking in your walking.  "The hooded figure sneaks north, slinking in amongst a group of commoners" is going to be viewed as something less suspicious then "The hooded figure sneaks north."  In the former, it is clear you are just sulking along, perhaps obviously, but likely no trouble to me.  In the later, you could be creeping along on your tip toes with a dagger in your hand like a bad cartoon villain.

[Sokotra]

Another pet-peeve of mine.  If you notice a shadow then I would just assume that I've caught on to someone that is trying to go otherwise unnoticed and not really say anything unless they have a dagger raised and are about to kank my friend from behind.  Same with the sneaking and hoods.. yeah, it might be more suspicious than someone just walking around normal - but so what?  There could be hundreds of reasons they are trying to go unnoticed.. maybe there's a crazy neighbor-screwing ex-girflriend that is trying to find them and hook back up.


OMG A HOODED PERSON SITTING AT THE BAR!  CALL THE TEMPLARS! HE'S GOT HIS HOOD UP!  MUST BE SOME SUPER-SEKRIT CRIMINAL!!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

If you fail a skill, something bad happens. If you fail a crafting skill, you lose your raw material. If you fail a combat skill, you drop your weapon or fall on your face or potentially die. And if you fail a stealth skill, I'm sorry, but something bad is going to happen to you. If you fail your hide, your sneak, and all five of your steal attempts, I'm not just going to sit there and sip my drink in the name of good roleplay. My character is going to react in a way that makes sense for him, and you know what? It's probably going to be bad for you. I'm going to close my pack, or shout very loudly "what the fuck are you doin'?", or even get stabby.
While I agree that jumping up and spamming scan is, in most situations, silly and annoying, I don't think it's an entirely ridiculous reaction, either. Here's an example... let's say you're hidden, sneaking, and you try to steal from my character. You fail the steal, and I get a message telling me I was almost stolen from. ICly, the culprit should be nearby, at least in arms reach. One reaction that might be IC for my gruff mercenary character would be to stand up, start grabbing people by the collar, and asking why the hell they're putting their hands on my ass. OOCly, I'd jump up and scan. This is appropriate because my character is now alert, and is specifically looking for shifty bastards that might try to steal from me. It is also still appropriate because you're probably still within arm's length of me. So I'd get up, type scan, and start questioning various PCs, NPCs, and VNPCs about their sticky fingers. You're going to be one of the people I question. You might even be the first person I question. Because it's you that screwed up, after all. You who failed steal so badly that it became obvious to my character that you weren't just brushing against me or trying to cop a feel, but actually attempting to steal something.
So there's nothing wrong with using the scan skill in response to a failed stealth skill (that's pretty much what it's made for), but it's the application of scan that's tricky, the application that requires subtlety in roleplay. If some one jumps up and starts shouting "Spies! Thieves! Evil-Kank-Humping-Baby-Eating-Defiler-Elf-Whores!", then you should call them ICly on the paranoid bastard they're being.
I'm not going to be intimidated by a stealthy character's player blowing the "Bad RP" whistle on the GDB. If you mess up your skill, expect consequences, just like the consequences you get with every other skill in the game.

[Jherlen]

/agree with FDMW

I almost feel like people are expecting that there should be no consequences or suspicion at all for people who sneak around and fail at it, hide and get seen, sit around with their hoods up 24/7, or whatever.

People in Zalanthas are *paranoid*. The ones who aren't watching their backs and their pockets are the ones ending up penniless and dead. If you're trying to be shady and get caught at it, you shouldn't expect to be able to act innocent and get away with it. It just doesn't work like that. You failed - roleplay out failing and accept the consequences.

[Boggis]

Same with the sneaking and hoods.. yeah, it might be more suspicious than someone just walking around normal - but so what?  There could be hundreds of reasons they are trying to go unnoticed..

It is more suspicious than just walking around normal. The so what is that if you do something that makes you look suspicious you can't complain when somebody takes more interest in your behaviour. Its a tough world and people are out to watch their backs. They don't care that you're only trying to follow your lover around to see who else she's kanking - how're they supposed to know? Benefit of the doubt is not a beneficial trait for a Zalanthan to possess.

Seriously though, how many desert tribes IRL wore their hoods or kept their faces all wrapped up when they went inside somewhere to kick back for a while? How many US soliders in Iraq wear all their protective desert face gear when relaxing in the barracks after a patrol or whatever? Its just not normal to keep all that stuff on. Its hot and uncomfortable I'd imagine. What is the logic to it? How many NPCs do you see around hooded up in Allanak? Compare that to a more lawless place like Red Storm or the 'rinth. In my opinion keeping your features hidden for whatever reason is something that is going to draw attention in mainstream society in certain areas. Outside in the streets where the weather may be bad is not unusual. Sitting in a tavern with your hood up and facewrap on is and I think people shouldn't cry about getting more attention in those situations - they're asking for it I reckon. I don't give a crap if they're trying to add some mystery to the game and want to be the mysterious man in the corner who everybody wonders about, "Whats behind that facewrap? Ooohh.. the mystery of it all". They look suspicious to me and if I notice them (I don't have my characters notice everything by any stretch of the imagination) then I'll treat them with more suspicion.

As for the failing at sneaking I agree with Rindan and others. You messed up noticably so deal with it. I don't think that everybody should automatically react and appending emotes to your sneaks would be a wise thing to do if trying to sneak into a fairly crowded area in order for you to get a realistic reaction from the PCs in that place.

[Delirium]

You failed - roleplay out failing and accept the consequences.

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

Yeah... accept failure and roll with it already.  I personally try to give the shady type a chance to set the scene and their position, and react accordingly, but other than that, all bets are off.  I'm not going to coddle you because you've got your hood up and you want to be mister uberstealthy shadow dude.  

That said, I really think more people should keep some change in their pockets/inventory.. not only are you supporting your friendly neighborhood longneck, it gets a little ridiculous to be spammed with five lines of text every time someone wants to buy a drink.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think the message transmitted to you says it all.  *A strange shadow is here*.  Let's face it, if you were supposed to react as if you only managed to spot the person, but not their efforts to be furtive, you'd just get their sdesc instead.  But no, you get a different type of information - a message that not only indicates that your character has noticed something, but noticed something out of the ordinary.  It's even got the word STRANGE in it.  Similarly with sneak.  The message when you fail a sneak isn't "so-and-so walks north."  The message explicitly states that you were attempting to move about stealthily.

The conclusion here is that the messages are transmitted to people that way on purpose.  It is information that I can legitimately react to in whatever way I deem correct for my character.

[marko]

Someone who notices a hidden character notices a hidden character.  They can react however they want.

The information given means they noticed someone who was trying not to be seen.  If you wanna bring that over to the whole 'hiding in the crowd' bit of hide - that's fine.  Just means someone with sharp eyes noticed you darting behind someone else before you did it.

If you are hiding beneath a table - then mr. sharp eyes noticed you crouched down there.

I'm not certain if the visible ldesc for a hidden person is modified by change ldesc - but if it isn't, that would be a nice change.  That way people could tell how a hider is trying to hide (assuming the hider is using it).

To clarify with an example, currently, I know you see, "A strange shadow is here."

With change ldesc, that could be, "A strange shadow is here, skulking about in the crowd by the bar."

As for failing sneak - I've always seen that as someone tiptoeing around and moving so deliberately that you can't help but laugh / point at them for being so obvious at trying to sneak around.  Ever seen kids giggling and trying to sneak around their parents' back?  This is it.  

This is that 'super stealthy' wannabe who is darting from person to person so bloody obviously that you can't NOT see what they are trying to do.

[Dan]

Here is a link that should help...

http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=671


Gives a few tips on how to hide, incorporate it into your emotes.

[Anonymous]

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

Boy I'm tired of this type of argument 'tactic'.

To me the fact of the matter is that there are points and failings on both sides of the issue.  It's been made clear to me at least that sneaking/hiding aren't always indicative of the PC being hunched over, tendrils of shadow covering their face as they slink along, poison dripping from the daggers clutched in their bony fingers.  Blending in is a perfectly normal type of 'hiding' and I really wish that people who discover a sneaking/hiding PC would at times just roll with it as though they saw nothing out of the ordinary.

On the flip side I think discovered sneaky folks are too quick to run to the board and post about all the twinks who dared notice them.  You failed a sneak or a hide so roll with it.  Cut off people who, in their excitement will type out an emote that inadvertently paints you out to be a dark, ominous figure lingering in the corner.  Emote that you knocked over a bowl or a mug of ale, you tripped while weaving through the crowd, etc.

[Kalden]

I'm not certain if the visible ldesc for a hidden person is modified by change ldesc - but if it isn't, that would be a nice change. That way people could tell how a hider is trying to hide (assuming the hider is using it).

Yeah, it isn't, which is a big part of the problem. I always change my ldesc, but it's actually pretty pointless.

Boy I'm tired of this type of argument 'tactic'.

Uhh...how is this an argument 'tactic'? I, as well as just about everyone else, am perfectly willing to admit I'm seen when I'm spotted. What I'm not willing to admit is that I'm automatically some thief or spy because you see me as *a strange shadow*. If I have weapons out or I'm in rinth clothing, sure, take offense. But if I have normal clothes and I'm in a public area, I don't think you can safely assume that I'm a criminal because of it.

The problem I have is that, on numerous occasions, I've ran into people who will scream bloody murder at the sight of you in a public area, without even giving one a chance to respond. Sadly, I've noticed this from a high-karma race before.