Noticing Hide/Sneak

[Kalden]

I know this has been gone over time and time again, but I feel like we need to discuss it again. I feel like I'm playing with different people than I did a year ago or so.

Most of the times I've been spotted while hidden I get people who run around screaming, "A strange shadow is here! Ohmygod it's a spy! Help! Help!"

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? What should the proper response be, considering the fact that they can't see you with a real ldesc?

Similarly, if you see someone fail a sneak, a common response is, "Wow, you're not very good at that."  Wtf? Walking? Does it seem like I stumbled? Yeah, you attraction attention, but is it necessarily all that unusual? It depends on the context of the situation, doesn't it?

If you fail a sneak as you're walking in the alleys of the rinth, it could be assumed that you tried to be quiet and made a sound. If you fail a sneak as you're walking down the street in the middle of the day, it might be assumed that you're walking along in the shadow, or drifting along with a group of people.

So, the two questions:

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

[Maybe42or54]

1) At the bar? I can't see a shadow, there is people all around me and shadows all over the damn place.

2)If I see someone failing sneak? I am going to keep tabs on them because they fucked up so badly that my guy at the bar saw him when he wasn't paying attention. But give me a few days and I'll forogt, OOCLY, so my pc wont remember ICly. Or he may just be busy enough or talking that they didn't notice some drunk fucker tripping over his feet.

[Manhattan]

1. nothing. shadows are everywhere, man. not like I would go "omg someone call the militia there's someone snooping around!"

2. a failed sneak would probably look like a person ducking amongst a crowd of people, which is pretty noticeable in real-life. but in arm, I'd ignore it and treat it like a person that's just walking on his toes...no big deal. not like I would go "omg someone call the militia there's someone snooping around!"

[jstorrie]

Depends on the context. If I see someone fail a sneak in the Gaj, they've failed to duck into the crowd, so they just look like... everyone else. If they fail in a shadowy alley, then they probably do look like they're actively sneaking around. Ditto for desert sneak.

[amoeba]

I think these things can be tricky for a lot of people as the interpretation. I don't think there is a single simple answer.  I would prefer people give others the benefit of the doubt before dismissing thier reactions.

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

I think it depends on where it is and who notices.  A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.  Also a average Amos's reaction may be different than that of someone tasked to enforce the law.   That Kuraci soldier is looking for trouble makers.   He knows the clientel, he knows the place. Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place.  But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

In terms of the hidden emotes.  These can be tricky. First I would look as to why you are doing the emote. IMO it should have a purpose other than, cool look at me, I'm uber at hiding.  An emote of *someone reaches in  Amos's cloak" is stating an action that even those with untrained eyes might notice, but a emote like "someone shifts about restlessly." seems in my eyes to be done more for showoff purposes than any roleplaying one.  People wouldn't notice someone hidden's resltless movement, but you put out on the table that someone is hidden here, and asking them to not react.  In the long run, they will react based on thier experience with roleplay.

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

See some of the above for this. Depends on who you are, and where it is.  If you go about trying to skulk about in the ailes of the 7-11, a sure sign of a potential beer run, be carefull of the clerk reaching for the shotgun.  Circumstance dictates response.

[Demonaire]

Could Amoeba's response be archieved? This has to be by far the best response I have ever read regarding the sneak/hide debate that many do not seem to grasp fully. That is a very helpful piece of text to anyone unsure of how to react with something such as this delicate matter. Well done.





- Demonaire -

[Kalden]

It's just too bad that I don't run into you guys more often IG.  

1) At the bar? I can't see a shadow, there is people all around me and shadows all over the damn place.

So we have to assume that it is indeed a shadow? What happened to mingling with the crowds?

2)If I see someone failing sneak? I am going to keep tabs on them because they fucked up so badly that my guy at the bar saw him when he wasn't paying attention.

Yeah, but you notice everybody else who walks in. And let's not assume your guy isn't paying attention. You're watching the door. You see a commoner walk through. Then you see another commoner "attempt to walk through stealthily".

Now, I want a straight answer: where does the difference lie? Let's say he doesn't emote anything, or have a travel emote. Are you going to force a stumbling walk on him? Or force something disruptive on him?

What I'm getting at is how exactly do you think he failed, and how is that action  suspicious?

but in arm, I'd ignore it and treat it like a person that's just walking on his toes...no big deal.

Is that a good assumption? Do you think people are tiptoing into crowded rooms?

If I see someone fail a sneak in the Gaj, they've failed to duck into the crowd, so they just look like... everyone else.

Agreed.

[Kalden]

Could Amoeba's response be archieved? This has to be by far the best response I have ever read regarding the sneak/hide debate that many do not seem to grasp fully. That is a very helpful piece of text to anyone unsure of how to react with something such as this delicate matter. Well done.

Now, no offense, but all he said is "it depends".

I would prefer people give others the benefit of the doubt before dismissing thier reactions.

I'll just say that the examples provided in my initial post actually happened. The first one has happened several times.

A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.

How so? Both have large virtual populations hanging around, essentially 'hidden'.

Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place. But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

Indeed. However, they both have scan at adequate levels - they are both just as perceptive. Profession is often irrelevant to skill in Arm. Basically what I'm getting is: if you see *a strange shadow* in a bar, you can tell that something is not quite right with that person. They are deliberately avoiding notice. That's a sensible viewpoint.

So the only question that's left is how that individual wants to respond to this person who's subtly (or obviously) avoiding notice.

Could/should we safely assume that everyone hiding in taverns (or public?) is subtly avoiding notice, rather than obviously hiding, i.e. crouched under the bar?

In terms of the hidden emotes. These can be tricky. First I would look as to why you are doing the emote. IMO it should have a purpose other than, cool look at me, I'm uber at hiding.

Yeah, not a fan of handing out hidden emotes. That's a whole 'nother story, however, best left for another thread (or for previous threads).

[jhunter (2lazy)]

Honestly I think the echo for failed sneak attempts should be different.
Maybe in the cities, just have a normal entry/exit message.
Maybe in the outdoors, something about them kicking some sand or the scuff of their feet on rocks...rustle of grass...the snap of a twig...something dependant upon the situation.

[bloodfromstone]

Unfortunately, everything is situational with the failed sneak. I've always wondered how to react to this. It would be nice if we could know that we had failed a sneak so that we could emote properly, but the reasons that this can never happen are obvious. I don't know how to properly react without forcing action on another player, which I do try to avoid.

[amoeba]

A *strange shadow* in a rinthi bar is much different than a the same thing in the tavern in Luirs.

How so? Both have large virtual populations hanging around, essentially 'hidden'.

I think virtual populations are used too much as a crutch sometimes to ignore the suroundings and some simple common sense.  In a rinthi bar one would *expect* to see a number of people skulking about.  I'll skip the tavern in Luirs for a time and focus on a noble bar.  Would one expect to see as many people skulking about?  My point is your reaction should be different in a place where it is ordinary, verse one where it is not.

Sure you can say you are trying the blend with the crowd, but a trained eye should notice when someone or something is out of place. But in a place like the barrel, a hunter may notice someone that looks suspisious, but his reaction would be different.

Indeed. However, they both have scan at adequate levels - they are both just as perceptive. Profession is often irrelevant to skill in Arm. Basically what I'm getting is: if you see *a strange shadow* in a bar, you can tell that something is not quite right with that person. They are deliberately avoiding notice. That's a sensible viewpoint.

So the only question that's left is how that individual wants to respond to this person who's subtly (or obviously) avoiding notice.

Could/should we safely assume that everyone hiding in taverns (or public?) is subtly avoiding notice, rather than obviously hiding, i.e. crouched under the bar?

I'd say the profession is germane in terms of the reaction.  A hunter might eye someone suspisiously and fasten thier pack.  A militia however would have less of a polite reaction.

In terms of how are they hidding?  How many different ways are there to hide in a crowded dark bar? A well lit, sparcely populated one? The barracks? A sand dune?  

Yes, I'll sound like a broken record. It depends.  If someone notices you, how do you react?  You are the one setting the scene.   You step out from behind a column? You seperate yourself from the crowd? You crawl out from under that bunk?

[JohnGalt]

Personally I'd like to see a failed sneak look like a normal movement command, UNLESS the observer also is talented in sneaking, then its skill vs. skill to determine if they notice you were trying to sneak and failed, or if they just see you walking along.

[Manhattan]

listen, you don't know if you fail a sneak. you could try blending in with the crowds, thinking you've sneaked away safely, but somebody could have keen eyes and spot you. it's a fact of real-life and a fact of arm. you -think- you did well, but someone else would notice otherwise...which is the reason for the room echo "stealthily moves north".

as for the reaction...that is a different story. a person who fails at sneak would certainly look odd, but shouldn't be odd enough to warrant any reaction like "OMG OMG A THIEF!" i'm not trying to be an RP-judge here because it's just my opinion, but i've seen far too many "wrong" reactions to a failed hide/sneak.

let's say a PC "steathily moves north" out of a tavern, the situation tells us that the PC merely walked out of the bar trying to avoid attention. so why would a militia want to follow that PC, catch up to him on the road just to say "you're not very good at that." stupid reaction if you ask me.

now let's say a PC "steathily moves north" into a private room where a top-secret meeting is being held. the militiaman spots the PC and reacts accordingly, halting the spy from entering the room. SMART reaction if you ask me!

see the difference?

[Manhattan]

one thing that irks me is the fact that so many people treat hide/sneak negatively as if it was some criminal activity. they seems to always associate hide/sneak with a thieving, backstabbing PC. okay, so what if a child was playing a game with his friends and hid under a table using the "hide" skill...would that still attain a negative response?

i'll tell you what a strange shadow is, it's the disembodied shadow made by someone ducked under a table, behind a crate, flat against a wall, in a corner, etc. if your PC saw this 'shadow' in a crowded gambling hall, what would be his reaction? well, it depends. but i'll tell you what's not right: "a thief ! a spy! call the militia quickly!" put a little more thought into your reactions please, for the game's sake.

instead: emote pokes around under a table, investigating the shadow.
say (glancing around into the darkness) Is there anybody there? Who's there?

shadow != blatant hiding

[Rindan]

1) If you see *a strange shadow is here* as you're hanging out at the bar, what should you do?

If you see a strange shadow, it means that you see something suspicious.  If it wasn't meant to set up red alerts that you see something out of the ordinary, then what is the purpose of showing it at all?  If you are in a tavern, you might check your pockets.  If you are in some place that is supposed to be private, it might be a good time to draw weapons and start getting stabby.  A strange shadow means that you failed to stay out of sight to someone, and for them, it is obvious that you are trying to go unnoticed.  If you don't have your ldesc changed to explain where you are, don't be surprised when they act like you are doing something damn suspicious.

2) If you see someone failing a sneak, should you ever comment out loud on it?

The point is that you failed your sneak.  Instead of going unnoticed, you brought attention to yourself.  To the person that saw you fail your sneak, it was obvious that you were trying to avoid detection.  As to how to react, it depends upon the person.  My mean old mercenary would shout and point at you just to be an asshole because he likes to start shit.  My noble guard would take notice and watch you damn carefully, if not flat out confront you and your suspicious behavior around my charge.  My 'rinther elf might mock your incompetence if he felt in the mood to kick someone down a little, and completely ignore you if he didn't.  My obsidian miner probably wouldn't give two shits and completely ignore you.  My militia man probably would ignore you all together unless you did something stupid.  My spice sifter in Red Storm wouldn't give a damn and ignore you as well.

The point?  How people react entirely depends upon who they are.  In my opinion, what is not negotiable is the fact that you failed to make a stealthy entrance and that your blundering attempts at stealth made it look like you were trying and failing to go undetected.  The more respectable the people and the place you did it around, the more likely someone is going to think that you are up to no good.  Fail a sneak in the 'rinth or Red Storm and no one cares.  Fail a sneak into the Sanctuary or the Trader's around nobles and stabby happy guards and, well, you take your chances.

If you really want to pad yourself against people overreacting, include how you are sneaking in your walking.  "The hooded figure sneaks north, slinking in amongst a group of commoners" is going to be viewed as something less suspicious then "The hooded figure sneaks north."  In the former, it is clear you are just sulking along, perhaps obviously, but likely no trouble to me.  In the later, you could be creeping along on your tip toes with a dagger in your hand like a bad cartoon villain.

[Sokotra]

Another pet-peeve of mine.  If you notice a shadow then I would just assume that I've caught on to someone that is trying to go otherwise unnoticed and not really say anything unless they have a dagger raised and are about to kank my friend from behind.  Same with the sneaking and hoods.. yeah, it might be more suspicious than someone just walking around normal - but so what?  There could be hundreds of reasons they are trying to go unnoticed.. maybe there's a crazy neighbor-screwing ex-girflriend that is trying to find them and hook back up.


OMG A HOODED PERSON SITTING AT THE BAR!  CALL THE TEMPLARS! HE'S GOT HIS HOOD UP!  MUST BE SOME SUPER-SEKRIT CRIMINAL!!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

If you fail a skill, something bad happens. If you fail a crafting skill, you lose your raw material. If you fail a combat skill, you drop your weapon or fall on your face or potentially die. And if you fail a stealth skill, I'm sorry, but something bad is going to happen to you. If you fail your hide, your sneak, and all five of your steal attempts, I'm not just going to sit there and sip my drink in the name of good roleplay. My character is going to react in a way that makes sense for him, and you know what? It's probably going to be bad for you. I'm going to close my pack, or shout very loudly "what the fuck are you doin'?", or even get stabby.
While I agree that jumping up and spamming scan is, in most situations, silly and annoying, I don't think it's an entirely ridiculous reaction, either. Here's an example... let's say you're hidden, sneaking, and you try to steal from my character. You fail the steal, and I get a message telling me I was almost stolen from. ICly, the culprit should be nearby, at least in arms reach. One reaction that might be IC for my gruff mercenary character would be to stand up, start grabbing people by the collar, and asking why the hell they're putting their hands on my ass. OOCly, I'd jump up and scan. This is appropriate because my character is now alert, and is specifically looking for shifty bastards that might try to steal from me. It is also still appropriate because you're probably still within arm's length of me. So I'd get up, type scan, and start questioning various PCs, NPCs, and VNPCs about their sticky fingers. You're going to be one of the people I question. You might even be the first person I question. Because it's you that screwed up, after all. You who failed steal so badly that it became obvious to my character that you weren't just brushing against me or trying to cop a feel, but actually attempting to steal something.
So there's nothing wrong with using the scan skill in response to a failed stealth skill (that's pretty much what it's made for), but it's the application of scan that's tricky, the application that requires subtlety in roleplay. If some one jumps up and starts shouting "Spies! Thieves! Evil-Kank-Humping-Baby-Eating-Defiler-Elf-Whores!", then you should call them ICly on the paranoid bastard they're being.
I'm not going to be intimidated by a stealthy character's player blowing the "Bad RP" whistle on the GDB. If you mess up your skill, expect consequences, just like the consequences you get with every other skill in the game.

[Jherlen]

/agree with FDMW

I almost feel like people are expecting that there should be no consequences or suspicion at all for people who sneak around and fail at it, hide and get seen, sit around with their hoods up 24/7, or whatever.

People in Zalanthas are *paranoid*. The ones who aren't watching their backs and their pockets are the ones ending up penniless and dead. If you're trying to be shady and get caught at it, you shouldn't expect to be able to act innocent and get away with it. It just doesn't work like that. You failed - roleplay out failing and accept the consequences.

[Boggis]

Same with the sneaking and hoods.. yeah, it might be more suspicious than someone just walking around normal - but so what?  There could be hundreds of reasons they are trying to go unnoticed..

It is more suspicious than just walking around normal. The so what is that if you do something that makes you look suspicious you can't complain when somebody takes more interest in your behaviour. Its a tough world and people are out to watch their backs. They don't care that you're only trying to follow your lover around to see who else she's kanking - how're they supposed to know? Benefit of the doubt is not a beneficial trait for a Zalanthan to possess.

Seriously though, how many desert tribes IRL wore their hoods or kept their faces all wrapped up when they went inside somewhere to kick back for a while? How many US soliders in Iraq wear all their protective desert face gear when relaxing in the barracks after a patrol or whatever? Its just not normal to keep all that stuff on. Its hot and uncomfortable I'd imagine. What is the logic to it? How many NPCs do you see around hooded up in Allanak? Compare that to a more lawless place like Red Storm or the 'rinth. In my opinion keeping your features hidden for whatever reason is something that is going to draw attention in mainstream society in certain areas. Outside in the streets where the weather may be bad is not unusual. Sitting in a tavern with your hood up and facewrap on is and I think people shouldn't cry about getting more attention in those situations - they're asking for it I reckon. I don't give a crap if they're trying to add some mystery to the game and want to be the mysterious man in the corner who everybody wonders about, "Whats behind that facewrap? Ooohh.. the mystery of it all". They look suspicious to me and if I notice them (I don't have my characters notice everything by any stretch of the imagination) then I'll treat them with more suspicion.

As for the failing at sneaking I agree with Rindan and others. You messed up noticably so deal with it. I don't think that everybody should automatically react and appending emotes to your sneaks would be a wise thing to do if trying to sneak into a fairly crowded area in order for you to get a realistic reaction from the PCs in that place.

[Delirium]

You failed - roleplay out failing and accept the consequences.

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

Yeah... accept failure and roll with it already.  I personally try to give the shady type a chance to set the scene and their position, and react accordingly, but other than that, all bets are off.  I'm not going to coddle you because you've got your hood up and you want to be mister uberstealthy shadow dude.  

That said, I really think more people should keep some change in their pockets/inventory.. not only are you supporting your friendly neighborhood longneck, it gets a little ridiculous to be spammed with five lines of text every time someone wants to buy a drink.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think the message transmitted to you says it all.  *A strange shadow is here*.  Let's face it, if you were supposed to react as if you only managed to spot the person, but not their efforts to be furtive, you'd just get their sdesc instead.  But no, you get a different type of information - a message that not only indicates that your character has noticed something, but noticed something out of the ordinary.  It's even got the word STRANGE in it.  Similarly with sneak.  The message when you fail a sneak isn't "so-and-so walks north."  The message explicitly states that you were attempting to move about stealthily.

The conclusion here is that the messages are transmitted to people that way on purpose.  It is information that I can legitimately react to in whatever way I deem correct for my character.

[marko]

Someone who notices a hidden character notices a hidden character.  They can react however they want.

The information given means they noticed someone who was trying not to be seen.  If you wanna bring that over to the whole 'hiding in the crowd' bit of hide - that's fine.  Just means someone with sharp eyes noticed you darting behind someone else before you did it.

If you are hiding beneath a table - then mr. sharp eyes noticed you crouched down there.

I'm not certain if the visible ldesc for a hidden person is modified by change ldesc - but if it isn't, that would be a nice change.  That way people could tell how a hider is trying to hide (assuming the hider is using it).

To clarify with an example, currently, I know you see, "A strange shadow is here."

With change ldesc, that could be, "A strange shadow is here, skulking about in the crowd by the bar."

As for failing sneak - I've always seen that as someone tiptoeing around and moving so deliberately that you can't help but laugh / point at them for being so obvious at trying to sneak around.  Ever seen kids giggling and trying to sneak around their parents' back?  This is it.  

This is that 'super stealthy' wannabe who is darting from person to person so bloody obviously that you can't NOT see what they are trying to do.

[Dan]

Here is a link that should help...

http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=671


Gives a few tips on how to hide, incorporate it into your emotes.

[Anonymous]

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

Boy I'm tired of this type of argument 'tactic'.

To me the fact of the matter is that there are points and failings on both sides of the issue.  It's been made clear to me at least that sneaking/hiding aren't always indicative of the PC being hunched over, tendrils of shadow covering their face as they slink along, poison dripping from the daggers clutched in their bony fingers.  Blending in is a perfectly normal type of 'hiding' and I really wish that people who discover a sneaking/hiding PC would at times just roll with it as though they saw nothing out of the ordinary.

On the flip side I think discovered sneaky folks are too quick to run to the board and post about all the twinks who dared notice them.  You failed a sneak or a hide so roll with it.  Cut off people who, in their excitement will type out an emote that inadvertently paints you out to be a dark, ominous figure lingering in the corner.  Emote that you knocked over a bowl or a mug of ale, you tripped while weaving through the crowd, etc.

[Kalden]

I'm not certain if the visible ldesc for a hidden person is modified by change ldesc - but if it isn't, that would be a nice change. That way people could tell how a hider is trying to hide (assuming the hider is using it).

Yeah, it isn't, which is a big part of the problem. I always change my ldesc, but it's actually pretty pointless.

Boy I'm tired of this type of argument 'tactic'.

Uhh...how is this an argument 'tactic'? I, as well as just about everyone else, am perfectly willing to admit I'm seen when I'm spotted. What I'm not willing to admit is that I'm automatically some thief or spy because you see me as *a strange shadow*. If I have weapons out or I'm in rinth clothing, sure, take offense. But if I have normal clothes and I'm in a public area, I don't think you can safely assume that I'm a criminal because of it.

The problem I have is that, on numerous occasions, I've ran into people who will scream bloody murder at the sight of you in a public area, without even giving one a chance to respond. Sadly, I've noticed this from a high-karma race before.

[Armaddict]

Just did a quick scan, so apologies if I missed anything important or am reiterating something someone else said.

The strange shadow bit...yes, there are shadows everywhere, but at the same time, I don't think you should be expected to ignore that strange shadow you spotted.  I think the strange shadow points to something that seems out of place, otherwise, there would be no use seeing the strange shadows in the first place.  If you're -trying- to avoid notice, and someone sees it...they're noticing that you're -trying- to avoid notice.  I play a lot of rogue-type characters, and I don't expect people to ignore me if they spot me.  Hiding in itself is enough of a protection, I'd prefer that rogues stop complaining about being spotted.  If you're caught, you're caught.  Don't criticize other people for catching you.  If you think there was a problem with the method of how you were caught, emailing the imms would be better than instantly accusing them of bad role-play.

Hidden emotes...I love to do them.  Sometimes they add a whole lot of feeling to a scene that's going on.  Imagine in a book where you see two perspectives, the watcher and the watched.   Hidden emotes are a way of doing this same thing for all players who can see it.  Some emotes give them things to react off of.  If you do hidden emotes, don't expect everyone to play perfectly as you planned.  So, I generally won't even do them unless it's a scene I want to try to add to.  While it does bug me when someone sees a hidden emote and instantly stands up and scans...I kind of expect it to happen every once in awhile, so I can't really complain when it does happen.

[jmordetsky]

Outside the city - failed hide/sneak should be immediately noticed

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow). Failed sneak would might catch someone's eye as suspicious and should be played accordingly.

Inside the city (indoors highly populated area) - Same as above.

Inside the city (indoors low, like my apartment)  - Failed hide/sneak would be immediately noticed.

The lesson here is that if you sneak or hide and fail, you've made people around you suspicious and they should react accordingly. Don't be surprised when they do.

[Kalden]

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow).

Of course, this is actually a successful hide that's been detected by someone with high scan. Just to clear that up. I can understand suspicion, but what I've seen does go beyond suspicion. It's immediate action/assumption about how people are hidden.

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

[Anonymous]

Uhh...how is this an argument 'tactic'?

I was referring to the habit of discussion board posters to take a point they disagree with and reword it in broken chatspeak with stereotypical punctuation/spelling errors in what can only be assumed is meant to demonstrate how idiotic they find the mindset they are arguing against.  Specifically:

omfg my character can't fail they've got to be perfect!!11!

[Delirium]

Tongue in cheek.  So very sorry if it irritated your intellect.

My point was, so many people seem to rush to the boards if anything happens to their character that they don't agree with or like, even if it was the consequence of perfectly IC events.   They dislike the idea of their characters having flaws or allowing their characters to make mistakes, and this, to me, seems childish and immature.

Thus, the wording of my original statement.

[Cale_Knight]

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious?

I disagree with your line of reasoning. You seem to be saying that not only do I need to have a high scan, but I also need to have a RP jusification for spotting you that you agree with.

In my mind, if you've hit a sucessful coded hide, you're employing techniques that make you effectively invisible to the majority of zalanthas. You're not just hanging out by the bar. You could do that with a change of ldesc. You're not just walking with a big crowd. You could do that with emotes. You have codedly made yourself invisible, which says to me that you're doing something extra special to put you that way.

If my character with his especially good eyesight can somehow spot that, of course he's going to be suspicious. You're obviously skulking or pressed up against the wall or otherwise being extra sneaky.

[Anonymous]

Tongue in cheek.  So very sorry if it irritated your intellect.

No need for apologies, especially not snide ones.

My point was, so many people seem to rush to the boards if anything happens to their character that they don't agree with or like, even if it was the consequence of perfectly IC events.

What bothers me is the implication that the OPs point, which agree or not seemed thought out and not kneejerk, is somehow irrational and done in the heat of the moment, at least going by your statement.  It seems pretty presumptive on your part and dismissing any point out of hand after deigning it a kneejerk post is counter-productive.  It is possible to have a problem with the game or common player behavior that doesn't stem from someone screwing your PC over five minutes ago.

In general I think people who fail at a sneak or hide need to roll with it and not let themselves get too upset over how people react.  However I wish the people who see a 'strange shadow' or a failed sneak would vary their reactions a little, and I say this as someone who I don't think has ever successfully pulled off a sneak or hide, not around PCs at least.  

To me a perfect scenario for a failed sneak is for one person to 'happen' to notice and snicker, one person to notice something and then shrug it off as his eyes playing tricks on him and another person to not notice at all.  Seemingly choreographed stand->scan responses are boring.

This, to me, seems childish and immature, thus the wording of my original statement.

So the appropriate response for something you find childish and immature is to respond in kind?

Well, nyah nyah nyah to that.

[amoeba]

If my character with his especially good eyesight can somehow spot that, of course he's going to be suspicious.

I think this is what gets some people caught up. Scan is not bionic eyesight, it's not super eyeballs.  Rather it's an experienced peson noticing someone out of place.  Think of people who are trained to spot terorists in an airport.  They know what to look for.  If people would get off this "invisiblity" thing and approach the situation as "keen observational skills" they would see that it is possible to spot that one sneaky character with the shifty eyes in the crowd, if they are good enough.  

And for you folks who tend to get worked up at getting spotted, a really good person at hide is almost impossible to see by most people no matter how hard they scan.  If you get seen, maybe you are just not that good. Roll with what the code is telling you.

[joyofdiscord]

Stealth skills are already powerful enough without people having to treat a failed sneak like a successful sneak and a strange shadow like any other barfly.  If you get noticed, tough.  You were acting suspicious.  Yeah, this does depend on the situation, but in even the best of cases, you're still acting suspicious, and you still got noticed.

I play mostly stealthies and I also second the notion that an experienced rogue char can usually beat most peoples' scan.  Read "help scan", and try playing a long-lived sneaky character who gets decent at stealth.

[Bestatte]

Inside the city (outdoors highly populated area) - failed hide will draw attention (thus the shadow).

Of course, this is actually a successful hide that's been detected by someone with high scan. Just to clear that up. I can understand suspicion, but what I've seen does go beyond suspicion. It's immediate action/assumption about how people are hidden.

Think about it. If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

If you're hanging out at the bar, people would see that you're hanging out at the bar. Anyone walking into the room and taking a quick look around would see this. Hiding isn't hanging out. It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

Hiding can be conspicuous for people with good enough scan skill. Hanging out is a very -un-conspicuous thing to do...which is why most people hope they won't be noticed when they're hanging out. Noticed..as opposed to seen.

Yes, I see that there's a green-eyed guy in the corner. But - he isn't important enough for me to take note of. His existence merely registers on my "who's here" graph. The guy's presence hasn't attracted my attention, it isn't strange that a green-eyed guy would be on the corner. But yeah - he's there, no big deal.

Yes, I see that there's some strange change in the lighting down in the corner. I can't put my finger on it, and BECAUSE I can't put my finger on it, AND because I see it, my "who's here" graph goes up a bit and makes me wonder what's so strange. And so - I NOTICE - as in, take note (mentally). The existence of this strange change in the lighting down there is pointed out to me, by myself, or by the shadow. Either way - it has attracted my attention.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you're hanging out at the bar, people would see that you're hanging out at the bar. Anyone walking into the room and taking a quick look around would see this. Hiding isn't hanging out. It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

Those examples are ridiculous.  In my opinion the only reasonable way to describe hiding in a crowded area is exactly what you say it isn't.  Yes it's true, hanging out at the bar doesn't constitute hiding.  Rather, an elf in hiding might be hanging around in a group of ten of his tribemates, all dressed pretty much alike.  A dusty dwarf might be sitting at a virtual table with a bunch of obsidian miners.  A half-giant might just slouch in the corner and not move, in an attempt to draw as little attention to him as he possibly can.

[Bestatte]

Yeah they're a bit odd, but that was the example I was responding to. Blame it on the guy who wrote it hmm? He's the one who likened hiding to "hanging out at the bar." I took his example and explained why it didn't seem to make good sense to me.

[jmordetsky]

If you see the shadow and you decide you're suspicious, I want to know why you're suspicious. If I'm hanging over the bar, what is it about the way I'm hanging over the bar that's suspicious? How can you leap to a conclusion without letting the hider tell you how he's hiding, also?

If you're just hanging out at the bar, then why are you hiding? My point of view is that if you took the time to type "hide" while in a bar, then you've done something that someone with a high scan skill will take note of as suspicious. Maybe you're sitting in corner alone, maybe you're hiding under a table.

If you didn't, then you don't really need to use the hide command. There is way too much interpretation as to what 'hide' is and it was probably never designed for you to use as means to hang out in a tavern and listen away without being noticed.

The way I see it, the only solution is that if you use the hide command, then you have tried to 'hide' yourself in your surroundings and if someone else notices you, then they've noticed you in your surroundings and if you are in a heavily populated area then you now 'stick out' to the person who noticed you. imho. I hate tavern hiders. It's so shit.

[Cale_Knight]

I think this is what gets some people caught up. Scan is not bionic eyesight, it's not super eyeballs.  Rather it's an experienced peson noticing someone out of place.  

I agree that "eyesight" was a poor word to use, yes.

[Kalden]

You seem to be saying that not only do I need to have a high scan, but I also need to have a RP jusification for spotting you that you agree with

Not at all. If you could take the time to read, you'll see what I actually said: I, as well as just about everyone else, am perfectly willing to admit I'm seen when I'm spotted. What I'm not willing to admit is that I'm automatically some thief or spy because you see me as *a strange shadow*.

I take issue with being tackled simply because I'm a shadow.

In my mind, if you've hit a sucessful coded hide, you're employing techniques that make you effectively invisible to the majority of zalanthas.

Since when were PCs the majority of Zalanthas? There are 500k people in Allanak. There are maybe a few hundred PCs.

. You have codedly made yourself invisible, which says to me that you're doing something extra special to put you that way.

No. I've never been told that. I am blending in with the crowd, like all the other scores of 'invisible' people.

What bothers me is the implication that the OPs point, which agree or not seemed thought out and not kneejerk, is somehow irrational and done in the heat of the moment, at least going by your statement. It seems pretty presumptive on your part and dismissing any point out of hand after deigning it a kneejerk post is counter-productive.

She's being witty(as usual). Part of the reason for this post is that I've had it happen a couple of times in the past few weeks(as well as a few times in the past - it's usually from the players I'd expect it from) and I was hoping that these players might come forward to defend their actions(doesn't seem to have happened). Force 'em to think a little... :roll:

Regardless, I still thought this subject could use a little more discussion. And it's a small notch above some of this other stuff, in terms of intelligence.

It's making an -active- attempt to be -unseen.- Being unseen is a lot different from being inconspicuous. Being unseen is not simply "blending in with the crowd." It's hiding -behind- the crowd, or ducking into it and surrounding one's self with taller people you hope are all looking in the other direction.

That's far more unrealistic in a public area; actually, it's frequently impossible, depending on one's size. Maybe you missed all the previous discussion through the years, but blending in with the crowds (small groups of virtual people, whatever) has generally been accepted as a way to hide. You can hide in the shadowy corners too, but I was under the impression that blending with the crowd is accepted.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't pass yourself off as an authority on something you aren't. Yes, I would like to know -how- exactly my character hides, but I sure don't do the crabwalk through the crowds of the Barrell and the Gaj till I find a nice cozy spot under a table.

A dusty dwarf might be sitting at a virtual table with a bunch of obsidian miners.

How is a human hanging out at the bar with a bunch of other rough-looking humans any different from that example? Would you be happier if he was at a table with these people? Does it really make a difference?

[Bestatte]

Passing myself off as an authority? Huh? This is a discussion, open to whoever is interested in discussing it. I was interested in discussing it. Nowhere have I claimed to be any kind of authority, and in fact, in all the characters I've had, as far as I know, my hiding skill (if I had it) sucked. I rarely even used it.

As someone who's played a PC with very high scan, I usually ignored shadows unless I was in a situation where I "needed" to notice them. I saw hiding -and- invis people all over the place, but didn't react to them much of the time because *my character* had no need or desire to react to them.

My comment in my response thread to you concerned your comment about hanging out at a bar. My opinion on the matter stands.

"Hanging out at a bar" is not hiding. Hiding is not "hanging out at a bar."

[EvilRoeSlade]

How is a human hanging out at the bar with a bunch of other rough-looking humans any different from that example? Would you be happier if he was at a table with these people? Does it really make a difference?

It is different.  In every tavern I've been in, only one bar has been mentioned in the description.  This bar is always a coded bar and not a virtual one.  If you're sitting at it, you're sitting at it.  If you're hiding... well, you're not.

[Armaddict]

I'll agree with the other posters that when hidden you are not just 'hanging out'.

There is a purpose when you type hide, and that is to be unseen or unnoticed.  Whether that be standing in a group of ten of your tribemates (in which case I sincerely hope you're emoting it out, rather than leaving the scanner the responsibility of creating those vnpcs to explain your hidden status), turning your face away to avoid notice, or hiding behind a barrel, you are -making efforts- to avoid attention.

People hanging out are hanging out.  They're comfortable.  They aren't out of the ordinary.

People hiding are taking measures to keep themselves out of sight and out of mind so that they can do whatever they're doing.  Those measures are exactly what a high scanner sees.

If you don't want to be regarded with suspicion, quite simply, don't act suspicious.  Hide -is- a suspicious skill, and people who use it are quite obviously up to something.  Whether you're a thief or spy or not, you are putting yourself in the position to be mistaken as such.

I'll also reiterate what Bestatte (I think?) and Delirium have said.  I think this post is more than likely the result of someone having to deal with a scene that they didn't agree with.  I've been in that position before, and been dealt with harshly.  Or at least, it certainly seems as though that's where this post came from.  If not, apologies.

If so, my only advice is to once again report any situation where you feel you've been duped to the powers that be, and they will either correct it, or tell you you're mistaken.  The code is there as a guideline for the rest of us...if we see a strange shadow (which, I'll have you note, is just the code's way of letting us know we see a hidden person.  Not every hidden person is going to be a 'strange shadow'.), then we see it.  Perhaps we'll ignore it if the rp of the scanner decides it so.   If you demand that it get ignored, don't hide, and they won't have -any- reason to suspect you.

[Manhattan]

i propose a solution. instead of typing hide in your console, type "change ldesc stands against a darkened corner, melding with the crowd"

but if only 'change ldesc' allowed longer strings...

[Synthesis]

1. I think people are getting too caught up in the 'shadow' thing.  Just because the code says you see a shadow, doesn't mean all you see out of place is a stinking shadow.  It's just a generic message to let you know something is out of place, and frankly, I think it should be changed, because it's a silly message.

2.  You can't see someone's ldesc if you can only spot them with scan, so hiding and changing your ldesc to reflect what you're doing will not help this problem at all.

3.  If you get spotted while hiding, suck it up.  Chances are you weren't emoting exactly what you were doing while you were hiding anyway, so that gives other PCs the -right- to react to you however they please, until you start emoting exactly what you're doing.  Sorry, chum, but that's just fair play.

4.  Hide is a ridiculously powerful skill, and it can be countered essentially by only one skill that very few people have.  One class that can spot you essentially couldn't do anything about it even if they did, one class is only good at it in the desert, and the other rarely survives long enough to branch it.  So, chances are, you're going to go a very, very long time without getting spotted by scan.  If you got spotted at all, it's probably because you failed your hide attempt.

[jmordetsky]

When I first saw the shadow I thought it was a magicker. I acted accordingly, much to the ammusement of those around me.

[Agent_137]

Honestly I think the echo for failed sneak attempts should be different.
Maybe in the cities, just have a normal entry/exit message.
Maybe in the outdoors, something about them kicking some sand or the scuff of their feet on rocks...rustle of grass...the snap of a twig...something dependant upon the situation.

this is where roleplay comes in, in my opinion.

This is a mushy MUD. It's up to the players to describe just HOW the sneak failed.

The trouble in Arm is that you don't know when you failed a sneak. So how do you let others know just HOW you failed the sneak? Same for hiding.

So who's job is it to give the appropriate ingame flavor to the failed action? How can this be done?

Should it be done via complicated code?
I don't think so. Too much work, too little return.

Personally, I think a good answer is to let the failed sneaker/hider know when they've failed through a subtle IC emote. If they pick up on you noticing them OOCly, perhaps they can then tell you just HOW they failed.

Just an idea i just had. I don't pretend that it's well thought out.

[Delirium]

Perhaps a solution for the time being would be to make liberal use of movement emotes while sneaking.  If you sneak north, easing soft-footed around an agafari tree-trunk, then the person noticing you could glance up at a twig snapping.

[Agent_137]

beautiful solution for sneaking.

now hiding?

[Armaddict]

Maybe hide should -require- an 'emote' or somesuch, so that a failed attempt would show what they're doing.  Perhaps that could even tie in with what a scanner sees.

It might encourage people using hide to take a look around and more fully think out -how- they are avoiding notice, as well.

Just an idea.  Probably not a good one, either, but worth a shot.

[Anonymous]

Just an idea.

No, that's not just an idea, that's a fantastic idea.

hide (moving beneath a table and sinking to a crouch)

If the PC fails everyone sees:

Moving beneath a table and sinking to a crouch, the such and such man draws your attention as he tries to hide.

If the PC succeeds only the people with a successful scan would see that if anyone.

It's perfect and more than that it would be great for assassination scenarios.

[Forest Junkie]

I really love this idea as well.

If the PC succeeds only the people with a successful scan would see that if anyone.

It's perfect and more than that it would be great for assassination scenarios.

I love this especially. There are so many instances I'm reminded of in the past where this could have been used to great effect.

[Maybe42or54]

say (Looking around, squinting his narrow eyes) "You see that barrel move?

The ugly ass bitch of a man says, in sirihish, sounding retarded, "What barrel move? You been smoking spice again, havn't you?"


You hear a scream off in the distance a little while later.


Kickass.

[jhunter]

That is an awesome idea.

hide (ducking behind a tree)

[Agent_137]

Yep. this would fix a long standing RP problem. Let's see it happen! Idea it ingame today!

(I don't really trust the immortals who would be interested in working on this bit of code to regularly check this forum to find our little idea, espescially the ROLEPLAYING forum. Idea this or it won't happen.)

[joyofdiscord]

Well, I hoped someone else would chime in on why this is a (really) bad idea, but here goes anyway:

If you've succeeded in your sneak, you succeeded in getting where you want to be without suspicion, so making them "draw attention" in their hide is gratuitous.  If you fail, you can be seen.  That's fair, being as you succeeded your check for getting there subtly in the first place.  Having some ridiculous failure message for hide, especially one which goes way overboard on the "suspicious" side of the fence by actually saying that someone "draws your attention" would only promote sekrit hide-practice sessions by stealthies until they are good enough to not have this sort of crushing revalation brought down on them.  In a world where someone could lose their character for failing a stealth skill, there'd be no other choice.

Next, this would give sneakies 100% certainty that they've succeeded if their hide, simply by the fact that the entire tavern doesn't go instantly into hysterics by the fact that OMG, there is a PERSON in the CROWD!!!  As it is now, the rogue just can't be sure, which is the way it should be.

Third, requiring an emote to execute a skill itself is without ANY precedent whatsoever and would be greatly cumbersome, and give HUGE advantages to fast typers and people with fancy clients.  Much more advantage than they already have.  In real life, hiding during a chase could be as quick as ducking around a corner.  An action that takes much less time than typing "hide (ducking around a corner)".  Why not require an appended emote on crafting skills, or "steal", or ... pick your poison, how about "flee"?


Also, and this is an aside: hiding in a crowd does NOT mean you are surrounded with tall people, none of whom are looking at you.  Hiding is transitive.  You aren't becoming invisible, you are hiding FROM someone.  Hiding has a target.  When you're in a crowd of VNPCs, you're simply surrounding yourself with people who, in a refreshing contrast with many PCs, don't consider every plain commoner without a full suit of chitin armor, or a quiver and arrows, or merchant rods and silks, to be a nasty thief rogue, slinkabout.  When you are hiding, you are avoiding the gaze of the "important" people, i.e. the PCs.  You don't worry too much about VNPC commoners seeing you because most of them don't have irrational, OOC-based paranoia that ICly would be borderline mental illness.


My previous post made it clear that I'm fine with people acting stealthy being treated suspiciously, but this will just provide people with encouragement to make it more excessive than it arguably already is.  In a year we'll see a GDB post that says "Why shouldn't everyone in the tavern notice that one guy in the crowd?  The echo even SAYS, he draws your attention!!"


Want to describe how you're hiding people, two words:

CHANGE LDESC

[joyofdiscord]

Also, did you guys know that we already have hemote?  It's called the look emote.  I know for a fact that you can see who a shadow is looking at if you pick them up on scan.  I'm almost positive you can see the emotes too, but I don't think the defiler in question whom I spotted used any look emotes, because he probably didn't think he'd been spotted.

Let this be a lesson to all, even 8-karmas: if you are concealed, look emotes are a great way to get across your actions to the people that need to know and conceal them from those that don't.

My stealth routine often consists of "sneak, e, hide, l someone with emote describing my actions."  It's a great solution, accomplishing much of what this idea would, exposing me immediately if I failed my hide, and making me suspicious since I got into the room without an echo since I succeeded with my sneak.  And it does all this naturally, with touches of uneasiness, uncertainty, and shadiness, not in a heavy-handed "EVERYONE LOOK, THIS GUY FAILED HIDE" way that sounds like it belongs in a pseudo RP H&S mud.

[amoeba]

My stealth routine often consists of "sneak, e, hide, l someone with emote describing my actions."

I'm fairly certain looks from a successful hide don't echo.The same is true for changing your ldesc while hidden, although that one I'm less sure of.

[Delirium]

Looking at someone while successfully hidden does not echo, even if the person might be able to scan and pick up on you as a strange shadow.  Obviously, looking at them when you're not hidden echos fine.

Changing your long description has no effect on your hide status, so feel free to make liberal use of it.  I do wish that when someone picked up on *a strange shadow is here* changing your ldesc would change it to *a strange shadow crouches low behind a boulder* (for example).

Looking at someone while cloaked with certain other means will be noticed if that person can already see you.  I've never seen a look emote attatched but I don't think that there ever were look emotes attatched.

[joyofdiscord]

Looks while hidden don't echo, which is why it is a good way to spice up your sneaking-round, since you can get a bit daring with the look emotes and offer up a chance for you to be caught shuffling around and eyeing people, since you'll still fail occasionally and raise some eyebrows.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've even exchanged some emoted looks with a scanning char that could see my hidden char that no one else responded to or seemed to notice in the least.  Either way, look emotes seem like a nice complement to stealthy actions, apparently with built in code determinations to ensure that the appropriate people see it.

[Armaddict]

Having some ridiculous failure message for hide, especially one which goes way overboard on the "suspicious" side of the fence by...

The failure message would only be as ridiculous as you make it.

actually saying that someone "draws your attention" would only promote sekrit hide-practice sessions by stealthies until they are good enough to not have this sort of crushing revalation brought down on them. In a world where someone could lose their character for failing a stealth skill, there'd be no other choice.

You mean drawing your attention the same way an emote does?

Secret hide sessions occur even now, at least this way they'd have to come up with an emote each time they used it.  Doing it for the hell of it might become a hassle.

Someone can lose their character for spilling their mug of ale or forgetting to bow to a pissed off templar who talks to them.  -Non- stealthy characters can die for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.  Your average commoner can be killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  You're telling me a failed stealth skill, one where you're making an effort to not attract attention and not succeeding in that goal is supposed to be free of suspicion and mistreatment?  It's not fair, but neither is the criminal system of allanak and most of the political affairs of the game.  I don't think it's meant to be 'fair', it's meant to be as close to what Allanak's culture is like.  Isn't that the role-play?

Going back to the original counter-statement of this thread...if you want to be free of suspicion, don't be suspicious.  If I see a guy walking through my fraternity house, keeping his head down and not meeting anyone's gaze, slipping around people quietly and not conversing, and watching people from afar, I'm suspicious.

They could also come in and 'blend in', act just like anyone else, converse, and -let- people know he's there, but not attract attention because he's being normal.  But that's not the hide skill, is it?  That's acting.  Sometimes, that's a more viable choice than depending on a skill to not attract attention.

[joyofdiscord]

Catching a weirdo lurking around is already handled by sneak.  Someone staying out of your sight is covered by hide.  If you fail at your hide, you are within their sight.  This can still be very very bad for you.  Putting a mandatory emote on every hide is tremendous babying/handholding when there are already coded tools available to roleplay the action.  Every single skill has a way to describe what's being done, so every single one would have to require an emote.

FWIW, learning how to be sneaky is one of the more enjoyable soloRP experiences if you end up having to do it alone.  People that are just spamming hide to up their skillz are found sooner or later, and they aren't any different then the ones spamming hunt or scan or craft widget.

Now, this is a separate matter from having a failure echo on hide.  A point could be made for it, but I just don't think it makes sense within the current context of stealth skills.  Hide doesn't happen in an instant like sneak.  Hide is extended, and if you arrived after the coded attempt.  there'd be no way to tell the difference between a failed hider and someone just standing in the room, except for change ldesc, which we already have.  Sneak handles moving around and possibly drawing attention to yourself.  Hide handles being seen or not.  The movement delay and hide skill delay gives people a chance to see you even if you are maxxed.  It's elegant.  The only thing that would make it more elegant would be a true hidden-emote command.

[Cyrian20]

1. I don't treat it as a shadow, I treat it as my character notices someone being sneaky, but if I am not being chased by anyone or all paranoid from spice my character could care less

2. I have never rp'd noticing a failed sneak unless I was with the individual giving lessons on how to use the crowd or shadows to your advantage.

[Morrolan]

I ignore all stealthy attempts unless my character is pulled into the situation.

Then again, I also don't generally "look" at people unless I really am paying attention to them.

I'm not a fan of my character walking into a tavern and having six people "look" at him/her.  My character is not that interesting.

How about if "assess -v" were expanded to add a few things, like armed/unarmed (as in wielding a weapon at that moment), and maybe a description of their cloak/aba/hooded santa-suit/whatever?  That way this basic information, which people register almost unconsciously and with just a glance, could be seen -separately- from "look," which is also used for checking someone out in detail.

--or--

what if:

look <person>'s right hand

(for example)

returned the information as to what was in the hand as well as "you see nothing special."

Morrolan

[keithor]

In regards to the hide having an emote REQUIRED, that seems a bit much. But to make it OPTIONAL, like rest/stand/etc..., would allow you to give context to your failed hide attempt.  

 I paticularly like this solution because it allows for expanded rp when someone fails their hide, that's why we're here right?

[X-D]

I'm not a fan of my character walking into a tavern and having six people "look" at him/her. My character is not that interesting.

So, earlier today IRL, I was in a bar, about 40-50 people in it, call it a little over half full, dimly lit, music playing, people talking, and I was paying attention to the people around me, and I noticed, that when the door opened, over half the people would at least glance over...every time. Hell, about the same number would glance up each time the bathroom doors opened.

I figure, that if 20 of 40 people check and they really don't have to worry much about somebody ramming a sword/dagger into them, or a pack stolen off thier back, or Lord Templar Hardnose walking up behind them and having one of his two thousand pound half-giant guards snatching them up. That it does not seem odd when a few of the -rightfully- paranoid zalanthians glance over when somebody new walks in.
Just my take on that one.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't think the look spam you get when you walk in anywhere is a problem. Yes, there are vNPCs everywhere, why don't people look at them, etc ,etc. I look at everyone I can, all the time. If my character is mentally distracted, I'll drop an emote about it being an idle glance or with a blank expression or something to indicate it. But I, as the player, want to know what this person looks like, as to properly visualize the scene. No, my character may not actually take note of the person being looked at in any way. But I, as the player, want to know the description and clothing for my own mental image, even if you're just passing through.

[Cyrian20]

Yes, there are vNPCs everywhere, why don't people look at them

Not disagreeing with BFS at all, just adding something on that remark. People actually do look at vnpcs a lot. I know I do when in the middle of emoting I might look room, or scroll up to look over the room to see what is going on that I can use in the emote to add color. That is basically the same as looking at the vnpcs. Just thought I would add that little tid bit.

[Angela Christine]

People already complain about the look echo (not really spam) when PCs look at other PCs.  Imagine the spam if everyone "looked" at hoards of NPCs and VNPCs every hour.  I wouldn't consider that an improvement, so I tend to think PCs look at VNPCs virtually while reading the room description.


Angela Christine

[Cyrian20]

Yeah what AC said, she is better at the whole communication thing then me. I stick to nod pc and kill pc. just easier that way